Source: Musings from Two-Sheds Gomer

Comments: Brendt attended an incredibly worshipful night with Michael W. Smith, Third Day and others.   The sin?  It was sponsored by Chevy.  Therefore, according to I Hezekiah (or at least Steve Camp), worship could not have happened there.  Brendt takes issue with this assessment.
Memorable Quotes:

Not content to simply allow something like this to happen, there were voices of dissent because (in an uncommon move) the tour was sponsored by Chevrolet. No voice was louder than that of Steve Camp. In his analysis of the situation, Camp begins by stating that “I want to affirm my love and prayers for Michael W. Smith, Third Day, and Max Lucado”, then proceeds to cruficy them. (See also, “with friends like these…”) This tactic does not seem to be uncommon for Camp, who also will make self-effacing remarks about his past, and then rip someone else’s present. I guess that Camp considers himself to have arrived and that Galatians 6:1 is not applicable.

… if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness …

This, of course, assumes that Camp is one of the “you who are spiritual”. But I digress.

Camp’s polemic is filled with strawmen, largely based (apparently) on some divine knowledge of others’ attitudes, thoughts, and feelings. Where non-existent (and therefore, very easily refuted) issues are not employed, mischaracterizations of situations and misinterpretations (or, at least, misapplication) of Scripture is used. One example would be the statement:

The fact that this is an “evening of worship and evangelism” — their language, not mine -means that we have now actually digressed to charging people money to worship the Lord.

Uh, no, Steve. “We” are charging people money to be a part of a particular event during which there is the hope and prayer that worship will take place. Just like I was charged money for your concerts back in the 80s. Even if this is dismissed as Camp’s past, he is alleging that I was incapable of achieving genuine worship at his concerts. I’m not sure who this insults the most — me, Camp, or God. And lest we classify this as solely the past, please be aware that Camp participated in a cruise earlier this year, for which people were charged a lot more than my ticket to that concert cost. By Camp’s argument, no worship must have occured on that ship either.

Camp quotes these verses…

1 Corinthians 1:18
For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

John 15:18-19
18 If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you.
19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you.

…and then uses them to claim that any level of acceptability in the world means that the Christian is doing something wrong. The converse to this argument is that disfavor by the world indicates that you’re doing something right. But it could just mean that you’re a booger-head

But, let’s not rely on my interpretation. I’ll close with one more Scripture.

Isaiah 55:11
So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth; It shall not return to Me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it.

In short, you can’t get in God’s way, even if you try.

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This entry was posted on Thursday, November 3rd, 2005 at 11:16 am and is filed under Linked Articles, Music and Art, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, Steve Camp, Worship. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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9 Comments(+Add)

1   Tim Wirth    http://simplyagape.blogspot.com/
June 5th, 2007 at 11:59 am

Even though I would agree with Steve on the Chevy deal Im amazed at how a double standard seems to play out sometimes.
Steve helped a lot with a CD we did (given out for free) to the troops. Steve donated his time for free and only had us buy a plane ticket for him. Steve also did a great job on the recording.
When I was first researching Steve for the recording I found that bass player Lee Sklar played with Steve on some of his recordings. Im a big James Taylor fan as well as Phil Collins so I know how really talented Lee is.
Great bass player.
When I picked up Steve at LAX one of my first questions/comments was. “Wow Steve its really cool to know that Lee Sklar is a Christian. I assumed Steve would not use any non Christians on a worship recording which I believe is a proper choice.
Steve commented “No Lee is a Buddist”.
My jaw dropped.
And I asked “Why would you use a Buddist on a worship recording”? Music that has been made to honor God, where is scripture do you find a ok for that?”
Steve replied he has a opportunity to share Christ with unbelievers.
I pressed on.
“Did this have any effect on Lee?”
Steve’s reply was no-no apparent effect but who knows what seed could have been planted.
I think this was a cope out just to have name players on to sell a recording.
Thats my opinion on that for what its worth.
With many good professing bassplayers such as Craig Nelson why use a non believer to record worship music with?
I dont find any biblical ok for this practice.
Im also well aware that this is a known practice in the Christian industry. Integrity does it as well as others.
I just figured because of Steves strong stands he would not compromise just for the sake of making a recording.
Playing worship music with unbelievers does not honor God.
If someone can find a verse that oks this practice please let me know.
Peace
Tim Wirth

2   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
June 5th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

The idea one cannot have true “worship” as Camp states, misses the very fact that “true worship” is of God and from God and to God… as it is by the Spirit and Truth we worship.

When we walk in the truth (Jesus) and when we worship in the Spirit (the Holy Spirit in which we are sealed) only then is it worship… as we are then living our lives in the Spirit of Worship!

Worship is not some compartmentalized time in which we go to a building, sit and listen to some man talk and talk about God and teach out of the Bible… that can be “part” of the whole, but it is only part.

That is the real issue with some at these places as they miss that we are living sacrifices…

That is the most amazing thing to this worship in “Spirit and in truth” it is done in our corrupt and decaying BODIES!!!!

Romans 12: 1 – 3
“Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual act of worship.
Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is–his good, pleasing and perfect will.
For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you.”

The Bible is very clear that it is in how we live that is worship… notice that “Singing songs, going to church, listening to sermons et al” are not mentioned? They are all included in a persons life as a Christian… yet worship is so much deeper. These seem to have a very shallow view of worship…

Also, concerning Steve Camp, in my exchanges with him I found him as abusive as Ken Silva. In that exchange, when I called him on it he was more abusive and I left… even after that a few more people (I believe one even agreed with Steve on some things) came to my defense and also told Steve he was abusive. He never saw it… but as it is from what I can see, from how Ken treats people here, to how Steve treated people on his blog, to how Ingrid treats people, that love is very conditional and abuse is an acceptable way to treat those who disagree.

Tim,

Very interesting story. I ma curious if this was before he became such a staunch Calvinist (or rather before he came such a follower of Jonny Mac?)

But either way is shows the inconsistency of how these people view God , Scripture, Truth, Worship, Love and even Jesus Himself.

Blessings,
iggy

3   robbymac    http://www.robbymac.org
June 5th, 2007 at 8:43 pm

And back when Iggy & I were young, Steve Camp got himself into major hot water for using the S-word in an interview with a Christian magazine. Steve was roundly castigated by many Christians at the time, and now he refers to himself as “Keith Green, but with good theology” (that’s how Johnny Mac introduced him once), so I guess he’s cleaned up his act.

Abusive? Yes, but to be fair, I’ve had some nasty run-ins with Emergent people as well.

4   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
June 6th, 2007 at 9:00 am

Hey Robbie if I see you I’m gonna kick your….
Just kiddin’… Myself I haven’t had nasty run-ins with “emergents”…

Now, I have had run-ins with some nasty Gnostics who hang out in “postmodern”/emergent/emerging sites… or have had intense conversations with those who have been really hurt by fundamentalists.

As far as Steve Camp, what I remember was that he was standing right next to Keith Green on trying to keep Christian Music from going into the commercialization it is in today. As far as being “Keith Green” with good theology, Keith in his last years found grace and people stated how he changed. He re-wrote many of his anti catholic tracts with a more loving and softer tone… I think that Keith was saved from the pain of what he was fighting against…

Meanwhile Steve left that fight and has seemed to join the “commercialization” of Christian music…

Camp started Audience One around 2003 or so and says it is the “only Christian Label that exists”…

To say he is “Keith Green” is a bit of a put down to Keith. Keith had a great concerned for the lost… he had a heart for the homeless and bought and rented houses to give them places to live… even having people sleep at the foot of his own bed with his wife at times as there were so many people he was helping.

Keith gave his music away to those who had no money… Steve is trying to just do a “Christianized” label… so there is a huge difference. Steve would be opposed to the “social gospel” that Keith was immersed in.

Also, Keith’s theology was of great concern that we live out our faith, Steve’s is theological as to that we believe rightly. The difference between the sheep and goats was not in what they believed or even in Whom they believed… but in how they served Who they believed in. Keith gave water, Steve gives right belief.

Now, I used to sing Camp songs…”Don’t tell then Jesus loves them” was one of my favorites…I see at that time he had a great love for the lost and wanted to reach them… and somehow now, with the type of interaction I had with him, I just do not see that love any more. I see Steve is more interested in making himself more holy, instead of resting n the holiness of Christ Jesus.

But then that is just all my opinion. And being that according to Steve Camp and those in the John MacArthur “camp” I am lost… I just wish they would give the Lamb’s Book of Life back to Jesus.

Blessings,
iggy

5   Tim Wirth    http://simplyagape.blogspot.com/
June 6th, 2007 at 10:16 am

My time with Steve was a couple years ago. 2004 was when Steve helped with “Somebody Brave”. The recording Steve used Lee Sklar in was on the “Abandoned to God” CD I think it was recorded in 2001 Im not sure of the exact recording date. Steve was serving as associate pastor of Adult singles ministries and evangelism at Grace Community Church. It was a wonderful recording. Steves abilities dwarf my own so it was great to have him on board. I think we fall short when we use secular musicians on worship recordings. I find no biblical backing for the practice of using unbelivers in worship music recordings in spite of how good a recording turns out. Never read a verse where the Philstines jammed with David and the Levites. I dont believe God would have tolerated that practice. Matter a fact Im confident God does still not honor worship music made with unbelievers.
Steves fight against the commercialism of Christian music is a worthy one.
But we lost that battle a long time ago with the world when we choose to let them help run the Christian companies for the sake of profitability.
Thats why I left a couple years ago.
I sleep pretty good at night because of my departure from the supposed Christian music industry.
Peace
Tim Wirth

6   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
June 6th, 2007 at 6:23 pm

Tim,

On many levels I agree with you completely… on some I am not as “strict”.

Over the last 7 years I have run an online radio station and have gotten to meet many people. Most are very sincere and love Jesus… some I still wonder if they were just using the “Christian” label (not recording label) as a way to get in… Especially after Evenesance lied to Christian promoters I was even more careful though my format is much looser than most.

As far as worship, again to me it is not contingent on our works or righteousness. It is to be done in the Spirit in our heart in and by God… As we who believe enter into God, then he leads our heart into worship… which is much more than singing….

Can a person who does not know Jesus truly worship? Not in Spirit and Truth, but they can have a great sense of peace and love…

Can someone worship to music performed by non Christians? Yes, and have for centuries… Beethoven most likely used the best musicians and most likely did not seek out only saved ones. I have “worshiped” at a church knowing not all the performers were not saved. (one church I attended used professional musicians) I have even watched these non saved professionals come to Jesus as they performed every Sunday and watch and interacted with “saved” people. They then found Jesus and their lives were changed.

Again, worship is not about our holiness, our works, our faith, and on and on… true worship is all Christ focused done in the power of the Holy Spirit and is about living as Living Sacrifices unto God through Jesus.

It is that all we do as one who was dead, now we do as now creations and unto God. If we do sin it is covered by Jesus’ blood… in that we are free to grow in the Grace and Knowledge of Jesus Christ…

Anything less than that is works.

Now, part of what I do is look for that are sincere in their ministry… then i promote them most.

Blessings,
iggy

7   Tim Wirth    http://simplyagape.blogspot.com/
June 7th, 2007 at 9:33 am

I understand the rational of using ringers (unsaved folk) in churches because there are many Christian that are way to lazy to hone their skills as musicians (another sad commentary). But I guess the bottom line is to ask the question does God honor this worship? Of course since worship is focused toward God not man does God honor the sacrifice of praise from a unbeliever.
You asked the question
“Can a person who does not know Jesus truly worship? Not in Spirit and Truth, but they can have a great sense of peace and love… ”

If its not in Spirit and in Truth is it truely worship?
I guess that is the qustion to ask.
I do respect what you have to say though.
I actually like the band “Evenesance” I did not know they were even were thought of as Christian.
Must be a Creed thing (hehe).
I was in Nashville recording a couple years ago with Craig Nelson, Dave Cleveland and others and we did a cover of Steely Dans “Pretzel Logic”.
Now this was not a worship recording we wanted to get some free music to the troops and the Pentegon put a lot of red tape on me about sending Christian music overseas.
So we thought we would record some secular music for them done by people who love Jesus.
The comments went around about how really good Steely Dans recording’s were and why dont Christians put out the same quality of music.
I often ask myself this question.
Christians have the Holy Spirit to inspire them.
How come sometimes we make such mediochre recordings?
Now I know at large the world should not accept our worship recordings focused on God because they dont know God.
But shouldnt we give God our best?
I listen to Christian music today and can hardly tell the differance between ZoeGirl and Brittany Spears.
Another problem since we have to have praise bands in all our churches now we have mediocrity and bad playing coming out in droves.
There is a reason people didnt make it in the world (couldnt play) and now they are given a platform because a church needs players.
This is the reason a church often bring in ringers.
I think the focus on music as our only way to worship is way out of balance.
I think thats a big problem in Christianity now.
Thank you very much Rick Warren.

And with all respect just because people have worshipped to music played by secular artists doesnt make it right or honorable.
Style as well I believe most styles could honor God if not birthed out of rebellion.
I dont believe classical music alone is the way to go many very talented classical players are further from God than your average rocker (and not as friendly).
So much for much of Ingrids argument on music which I think is a vain one as well.
I think it all boils down to worshipping in Spirit and in Truth.

Joining ourselves at the hip with the world whether its Chevy or the whores that run CCM is wrong.
We need to read 1 John and really understand what God is sayin there.
In wondering if Rick Warrens bible includes 1 John?
Hmmn
I do enjoy the exchange here though.
Thanks very much for your well though out input.
Peace
Tim

8   robbymac    http://www.robbymac.org
June 7th, 2007 at 3:58 pm

Tim,

‘Twas a time that you couldn’t get “signed” to a Christian label until they’d attended on of your concerts and satisfied themselves that you had some legitimate “ministry” happening.

Nowaways, of course, if it’ll sell, they’ll promote it. That’s why there’s so much dreck in CCM.

9   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
June 7th, 2007 at 5:20 pm

I once talked to Henry Buck… or is it Buck Henry… the husband of one of the singers of 2nd Chapter of Acts on advise in how to break into the music industry… his advise bothered me then as it stell does today…

He stated simply… “Don’t”…

I think that speaks of the issues that are there.

I lost interest in most of the CCM music in the 90’s. Outside of a few I really stopped listening to “Christian” music as it all sounded the same and really seemed a bad imitation at best… Though I think quality has gone up considerably… I still see that it is a rare band that is original… and even the “best” worship is often just rehashed secular stuff….

Personally I have sort of given up on the “separatist” view… I promote “Christian bands” and “bands that have Christians in them” though they may not call themselves “Christian” even then I am careful as I stopped playing Creed when Stapp was going off on everyone, though I play King’s X but am careful as to which album I promote by them…

I play Alice Cooper even (from his “Christian trilogy” but not from his early career… as he is a professing Christian and often he is asked while golfing about his career and he will go into how great God is and how Jesus saved him…. He is a change man.

Yet, I have played groups that say they are Christian or are legit “Christian” and after finding out how they act or live pulled them… I do however correspond with them in hopes they will see that they need to change… these are ones that have gone into secular music and decided to use profanity and pornography to promote their music… so I do have to make some hard calls on what is out there…

The bulk of artists I play (mostly unsigned) I see as genuine and love the Lord and want to get the message out to people.

I am very choosey who I let play… even CCM as I think most of those artists get enough airtime. What I do is play a few of the big dogs and play the others to let indie artists get airtime and show they can stand out with these that have made it. It has been really cool to see unknown bands like Gretchen who I played their demos grow to be rather big names now…

In the end I want God to be glorified… the coolest thing to me is that because my station is not taken as just a “Christian” station, I have states from countries that are not Christian friendly that listen to it… so the Gospel is going into places that are not friendly to Jesus… through he cracks so to speak.

Blessings.
iggy