Great article John! Ingrid and her whole crew on that site may never know the truth about Rick Warren. I posted a comment in regards to having been a member of Saddleback for 15 years and what I know of who Rick is, what he preaches, etc…and of course, my comments were blocked.

I am really confused how having such a website where only censored material can be posted is valuable to anyone. It is amazing to me how they can hold themselves up as the determinators of biblical truth yet say such vile, hateful things about other Christians and do not want to take the time to do what they accuse Saddleback members of not being–”good bereans”

I will keep praying for Ingrid and everyone on SoL that they would come to know the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ and that they would remember that it is by our love of each other that others will know we belong to Him.

John and LisaMerry,
It took me several years of “acquaintance” with Rick Warren before I came across a pretty good gospel message by him, a couple of weeks ago. That was, I believe, a sermon preached at your church, which I listened to on pastors.com. I am not comfortable with the way he talks about sin and need to do some more thinking about that; but compared to what I have heard before, his message was surprisingly Biblical.

But please understand that that gospel presentation SURPRISED me. I never heard anything close to that while being in the Purpose Driven Program, reading Purpose Driven Church, Purpose Driven Life, articles such as the Pew Forum discussion, other interviews by him.

What I came away understanding from the first couple of years of my “acquaintance” with Rick Warren is that 1)I didn’t know what the essentials of the gospel were according to Rick Warren 2)Since he made statements about doctrine not mattering and also made a confusing statement about the Fundamentals of the Faith I didn’t know what “doctrine” was important to him ( I was surprised when read Saddleback’s doctrinal statement 3) Since I sat under sermon after sermon from him through my pastor and heard many scriptures taken out of context, I became concerned that he was teaching what he wanted to teach and trying to find scriptures to match what he thought. Quite a dangerous thing for a pastor to let into his church. 4) Since he said, in the SBC controversy that he saw no reason to separate himself from anyone, and since that controversy involved issues of working with people who call themselves Christians (God is their judge) who support abortion, homosexuality, and questioning the inerrancy of Scripture, I had great concerns about where his “non-separation” would take him. 5) One of my big concerns about him was how a pastor could talk so callously (in the Purpose Driven Church book) about being able to make significant changes in one’s church if one has about 100 members, as opposed to 50, because only a few families will leave and more will come in to take their place. That is not the heart of a pastor speaking. It’s business talk. 6) He seems consumed with a program changing people, not the power of God through the Holy Spirit.

I have been personally affected by Rick Warren’s coming into my former church. To put it in a nutshell, a year after we went through the Purpose Driven program my pastor announced that we were going to support several other churches in going through the program. I didn’t see how I could support such a thing, because in my small group we had come to the conclusion that the gospel wasn’t shared in the Purpose Driven Life, that the prayer to become a Christian at the beginning of the program could be made by people without them understanding the gospel at all. That people could be deceived into thinking they were Christians. When I heard that our church was going to support other churches in that program, I knew I couldn’t be a part of it. I spent several weeks reading and writing a paper on The Purpose Driven Church, and covered a few other issues mentioned above,such as the SBC controversy, the PEW forum discussion and presented them to my pastor.

He listened to what I had to say, and decided to go ahead with the program. My pastor admitted that Rick Warren’s gospel was “weak.” Regardless, I couldn’t stay at a church where a pastor was willing to do what I saw as following a man instead of following Scripture. My feelings may have been a bit different if he had actually been somehow convinced that the things I shared with him were untrue, if for example, he had a clearer gospel message somewhere by Rick Warren. But that wasn’t the case. Bottom line, he said he went ahead with the program because 1) he prayed it through and 2) men whom he respected were using. He didn’t list growth as a reason, but earlier in the Purpose Driven Church program he had said, “I heard that Rick Warren doesn’t teach repentance. But, SO WHAT? Look at the numbers (at our church!)” (I saw after that a message on repentance by Rick Warren that was pretty good. But the teaching was not promoted as important in the Purpose Driven campaign.) Actually I think the growth at that church had to do with a new pastor and a number of new large families moving to town.

I sometimes shudder at some of the criticisms of Rick Warren (the Hawaiin shirts, for example.) Also, I think that statements judging the salvation of other people (for example the people at Saddleback) are just foolish. Nevertheless I think that there are Rick Warren issues that have affected non-Saddlebackers that you all at Saddleback need to look into. It would take a lot of effort on your part to read through all that has been said and sift the just from the unjust criticism. Whether you will ever be able to see Rick Warren as an outsider, I don’t know. But eventually, the things that are really true about Rick Warren (and God only really knows that) could affect your church in a big way. With what has happened recently with Obama, it’s evident to me that Warren’s non-separation philosophy is already affecting your church significantly.

We are all responsible to determine what is Biblical, no matter who our pastor is. And we need to determine whether the church we are in is one in which the pastor will actually respond to Biblical correction.

Anyway, please consider that some of the things that you read about how Rick Warren’s programs have negatively affected churches could be true. And please consider that many people have had long-term church relationships affected because of feeling they needed to leave a church over issues brought in by Rick Warren. Consider that many people don’t see that Rick Warren thinks the gospel is very important.

A couple of years ago, I wrote a “what-if” story regarding how Rick Warren’s philosophy of non-separation could affect missions. Would you be interested in responding to it? Also, I have some other questions for you especially regarding Warren/Obama if you’d like to talk.

John,
You said, “The message that finally broke through my alcoholic haze and put me back on the narrow road was a simple message: “You matter to God!” I’m glad that God brought you back, that he helped you understand that there was nothing you had done that He could not forgive. In my family there is a horrible history of alcoholism with related abuse, suicide, poverty. One of my grandfathers did, by God’s grace, rededicate his life to God after hearing a sermon by an evangelist, and gave up his drinking. He was a simple man who worked in a mill whom God was really able to use in building relationships with people, and in passing out Bibles (he became a Gideon); he loved and reached out to many, including black folks, which in the South in his day was a bit unheard of.

But on the other side of my family my alcoholic grandfather committed suicide. His family had a very difficult life after that; I have uncles, his sons, who cannot understand the idea that God loves them and is willing to forgive them for all the sins they have done, even though one of their relatives is trying to make that clear to them. In the end it takes the Spirit of God to break through to a person.

The video that you refer to is what I was referring to when I said, “It took me several years of “acquaintance” with Rick Warren before I came across a pretty good gospel message by him, a couple of weeks ago. That was, I believe, a sermon preached at your church, which I listened to on pastors.com.”

The point of most of my comment after that was that that message on the video you referred to is not what Rick Warren has been getting across to many people who use his programs. That I was taken by surprise that Rick Warren could even share a message like that.

And to be honest, I wondered if it was put up recently to try to do away with some of the very just criticism that he has been receiving recently.

Have you heard the video message on the Purpose Driven Life series? That is the “gospel” message that many people have heard from Rick Warren: “Dear God, I want to know your purpose for my life. I don’t want to waste (or base) the rest of my life on wrong things. Today I want to take the first step in preparing for eternity, by getting to know you. Jesus Christ (.) I don’t understand it all but as much as I know how I want to open up my life to you. I ask you to come into my life and make yourself real to me. And use this series in my life to help me know what you made me for. Thank you. Amen. That was the end of the prayer. After that he said, “If you prayed that prayer the very first time, I want to congratulate you. You’ve just become a part of the family of God. Share your decision with somebody else.” (The periods in parenthesis are there because I copied this from the video and can’t tell whether Warren is pausing or not.)

Is this a message of forgiveness ? I think not. It can’t be a message of forgiveness, because there has been no mention of anything to forgive.

Is this a weak gospel? Perhaps even calling it a “weak gospel” is too much. Perhaps combined with other things Rick Warren taught in the program, we could come up with a “weak gospel.” But if we take things he taught in the program and combine them with other things he has said publically, like his remarks about the Fundamentals of the Faith, and doctrine doesn’t matter, we come up with . . . confusion.

John, I was in a small group of about 8 people. And we all reacted with concern to that Purpose Driven video.

No mention of Jesus’ death on the cross. No mention of sin. I checked in the literature, including the teacher’s literature accompanying the video to see if there was any further instruction for the teachers. There was none.

Maybe that doesn’t seem important to you because perhaps you assume that people are going to be instructed in their churches about who Jesus is, that He died, why He died, what sin is, etc, etc. Because my family moved a lot, and later, because of the kind of work I’m in, I have been in many types of churches. I also do a lot of reading about what different churches believe, teach. And I know for a fact that there are churches do not believe that Jesus Christ sacrifice for sins has anything to do with their “spirituality” or eternal security.

Imagine for example, that you were in a church that taught that Christ died merrily to be a good example of suffering, that you prayed this prayer given by Rick Warren, and that you believed that your eternital state was secure. Imagine also that you read in his book that doctrine isn’t important, so if you ever had any questions about whether some of your beliefs were biblical or not, you decided it didn’t matter. Imagine that you never realized that Jesus actually died so that you could be accepted by God, but rather believed that your security was determined because you had “prayed that prayer that Rick Warren shared.”

Or imagine that you perceive from this video that the main message is “You matter to God” and rejoice in His love. Your church makes its own definitions of sin. What if you go to a church that teaches that its okay to just be who you are even if “who you are” is a person living in sexual immorality? You rejoice that you matter to God, and you continue in your sinful lifestyle. You may have never known the power of the new birth, yet you think you have.

What particularly disturbed others and myself about this video is that we thought that, as a Southern Baptist, Rick Warren should have been able to explain the gospel, yet CHOSE not to. Also, that the whole program was put together with others’ involvement without anyone remarking and/or having an influence on that initial message. WHY? WHY NOT A CLEAR GOSPEL MESSAGE?

One of the things my small group concluded about the initial Purpose Driven video is that if it had been a video of some cult, everyone would have immediately dissected it. Because it came under the label “Christian” and because the pastor was so enthusiastic about the whole series, the inadequacy of it apparently went unnoticed by a lot of people. One of the leaders of the church told me later that he was probably off getting a snack when it was being played.

Please don’t confuse me with some who you may classify as “hell and brimstone” preachers/evangelists. I don’t believe that talking about hell is the primary method one should use to bring people to Christ. In fact scaring people can result in a “I want a ticket to heaven” conversion, instead of a true conversion which can only be brought about by the Holy Spirit. I have very tearfully told a couple of people that I believe that the Bible shows that they are destined for hell – but that was after having a relationship with them, trying to help them understand who God and Jesus were, what sin is, how it has separated us from God, and how Jesus took our punishment upon Himself.

My greatest concern about Rick Warren now is what the PEACE plan is going to do to missions; and what his ‘holding hands” with Obama is going to do to Christians. Rick Warren is in my opinion in clear violation of the commandment to not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. In this case his yoking could bring about tolerance to the idea of passing out condoms instead of teaching abstinence; could help someone who isn’t against abortion gain political power; and perhaps worst of all, could lead people to think that it’s quite okay to be buddy buddy with someone who is claiming to be a Christian while supporting homosexuality and abortion.

John, please try to understand that where I am coming from in my views of Rick Warren is where many other Christians are. Many people have been hurt by Purpose Driven coming into their church. Some may have expressed their grief in ways that have been unfair; some may have gone overboard in making generalizations. I apologize if I am in any way unknowingly doing that as well.

I simply don’t see how you folks at Saddleback can trust Rick Warren. Has there been some clarification on the Syria trip that has not been made public? How can Warren deny having invited Blanchard to work on the PEACE plan? I heard him say that clearly, sitting here where I am now, listening to his introduction of the PEACE plan. He even had a minute-long greeting from Ken Blanchard. Did he forget that? He says on the one hand that he wants to share the gospel, yet gives seminars – that help them build better synagogues and mosques – to Jews and Moslems and says that isn’t the place to share the gospel. Shouldn’t the gospel be at the center of spiritual growth?

Being such a large church, how do you know how those who disagree with where Rick Warren is going with the PEACE plan (or anything else) are being treated? Are there people who question the Obama/Warren relationship and other things about Rick Warren, who are asked to leave? I’m not expecting you to answer that, but if the answer is yes, consider if it is biblical for a person who has concerns that they can back up from Scripture to be asked to leave a church.