Essays are the only way I know how to try to deal with such a complex topic.

I know from a few things I read in the last few days that I am not the only one who is struggling with “the kingdom within” and “creativity” and “changing cultures” as taught by Mcmanus; and it appears that some of the people who are struggling with this are people who have been in Mosaic. Yes maybe we’re all misunderstanding; but what if even one of the things that people are concerned or baffled about are legitimate concerns?

No matter how much I’m understanding or misunderstanding, I believe that Gordon’s quoting Mcmanus on his website has great potential for doing a lot of harm to a lot of people. You apparently don’t see it that way. I wish, for the sake of a) a Christian who may meet a spirit guide through following Gordon’s teaching or b) a non-Christian who may think he has met Jesus through Gordon’s now “Christianized” teaching, that you agreed with my concern and were willing to bring it up to your church.

Do I think that SBC would permit and support Mosaic events if Mcmanus’ theology was wacky? I don’t believe any denomination has leadership that is incapable of making errors in discernment.

Anyway, end of essays, end of conversation.

again, this is not the place to converse via essays in a comment section. I have some trouble with your theology as well. I apparently seem to think that God is some evil war lord, looking to smite down his people with sickness, temptation and trials. I see those as part of a “better and brighter future” for the world. You apparently would disagree with the verse that says God works all things together for good for those who love him and keep his commands. If you think that God doesn’t have a brighter and more hopeful future, then I think you need to re-look at your faith.

Second, like I said, THIS IS NOT A QUOTE from McManus! I know for a fact that Erwin is talking about the regenerate here. Which is why Gordon (a non-follower) simply interprets that as being connected to God. Erwin has probably had conversation about this with him.

WHOEVER SAID HERE THAT THERE IS NO KINGDOM OF GOD WITHOUT REPENTANCE OF SIN!?! You are reading way too much into things. If you don’t believe that God wants to draw all men unto himself and change their hearts, please do so. ERWIN has never said that there is a “kingdom within without personal salvation.” In fact, I have personally heard him preach salvation messages through Jesus Christ (last week at Mosaic being one of them)! Amy, you have to stop looking into this! If I say “God has a plan for your life” it doesn’t mean that I don’t believe you don’t need salvation to experience that!

Amy, if you are like Ken, then you think the SBC is full of it. But, NAMB, IMB, and the SBC all work closely with Erwin and Mosaic. They invest countless resources into helping people get to Mosaic events to experience what God is doing here. He speaks for countless numbers of their conventions. Do you think they would permit him to do this if his theology was wacky?

I am done with this conversation (at least via comment postings). If you want to email me, great. nathan@mosaic.org. If you want to find more questions about the theology of Mosaic, I turn you to our executive pastor, Eric Bryant. eric@mosaic.org. IF you do want answers, you will pursue.

Jesus says, “When he (the Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgement: in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.” (John 16:8-11, NIV)

God wants men to feel convicted because of their unbelief, not believe that he is in them, helping them to obey and honor him, in spite of their unbelief. There is no “kingdom of God” on this earth without the personal acknowledgement, confession, and repentance of sin.

Satan would love to have people feel that they have the “kingdom within” without personal salvation.

But are the ideas that are being quoted, discussed, even biblical? You seem to think so. Gordon says, to whoever is reading his site, “We become a vessel God can use to mold into the people we were born to be… who share the love we were meant to share.” How? “In choosing to have faith and believing in a brighter and better future, cultivating a grateful and appreciative heart, and practicing forgiveness we open ourselves up to amazing possibilities.”

For Christians, this sound like “possibility thinking.” To teach this to a non-Christian is to teach them that they can have a wonderful, purpose-filled life apart from salvation.

As a Christian, I believe that I simply need to be obedient to God’s Word and to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit in day-to-day details of obedience, not “believe in a better and brighter future.” Many of my life experiences that I have chosen because of a need to be obedient are not one that most people would interpret as “better” or “brighter.” Certainly non-Christians wouldn’t see it that way.

If, as you say, “When we move towards Christ, we do move towards amazing possibilities. Did Paul not say “I can do all things through Christ”? Did Peter not walk on water? Did those at Pentecost not preach in unknown languages?” includes non-Christians, I say, absolutely NO to this. If you’re simply talking to Christians, I say that “amazing possibilities” includes only what is God’s will: God’s will may include endurance in spite of sickness. It may include NOT speaking in unknown languages. It may include working at Walmart 8-5, and being joyful while you’re doing it. It may mean living in another culture for 10 years and having people constantly shun you. It may mean moving around so much in foreign countries that you are viewed as a “toddler” in terms of language ability. It may mean being a loving and faithful spouse toward your drooling, uncommunicative spouse who has Alzheimer’s and hasn’t recognized you for 10 years. Moving towards Christ involves accepting his will for us and it may mean being humdrum, mediocre, untalented, but faithful, joyful, and loving.

“The Secret does not exist to satisfy your every wish but to help us become the kind of people God can use to make His ultimate wish come true – Heaven on Earth and inside each one of us” You support this quote by saying ” If God is working towards us becoming more like him, then I would say that his desire is to create something “heavenly” inside of us (our hearts). God wants to use us to help make this world obey and honor HIM.”

WOW. Nathan, where in scripture does God ever create something good inside of an unredeemed heart? (Yes, sometimes he used people, like Darius, but I don’t think that’s what your talking about.) Where does he ever talk about the heart of unredeemed man being good? Where did God ever command the disciples, “Go into all the world and make the unredeemed world obey and honor Him.” Peter and Paul did not go to Pagan temples and try to get people to dance for God – they preached Jesus, and the fact that sinners (meaning all people on earth) are responsible for the crucifixion of Jesus. They preached repentance. The apostles were “the smell of death” to those who were perishing (II Corinthians 2:16) – rejection of the gospel means a life apart from God. They made that clear. Rejection of the gospel is not a life where “the kingdom is within,” causing people to obey and honor God. (Study “the kingdom is within” passage in context, and consider whether or not Jesus could have possibly been telling the Pharisees that he thought that Christ was creating something heavenly inside of them..)

Look at Titus 3:3-5. Unbelievers are – foolish, disobedient, deceived, enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures, full of malice, envy, hate. Only through salvation which came about because of the love of God our Saviour are people saved – not because of their righteousness, but because of his mercy. Those who are saved are reborn, renewed by the Holy Spirit – so that they can have eternal life. In verse 8 Paul instructs Titus to stress these things in his ministry.

No one can come to God unless He is drawn by the Holy Spirit. He doesn’t create anything “heavenly” in us, apart from our “accepting” his sacrifice. Once we were “alienated from God,” not “heavenly” – we (who have received salvation) have been reconciled by Christ’s death. It’s his death, his blood covering our sins, and our resulting salvation that makes us completely “heavenly” in the sense of “holy in his sight, without blemish, free from accusation” (See Colossians 1:19-22.) We are justified by his blood, and will be saved from God’s wrath through him. Before that happens, we are “God’s enemies.” (Romans 5:8-11.)

“We are co-creators of our life with God.” I don’t really understand what all is meant by this. I do believe in free will – but over the last 10 years or so I have changed from a person who tries to do a, b, and c, – creative, Christian things that fit my gifts and seemed like things that would honor him – in the Christian life to honor God, to a person who tries to submit to God and let Him work through me. What he did through me in the last culture I was in went way beyond anything I could have “created” through my will. In fact, he let me break down physically, and come to the complete end of myself – and I learned something of what it the verse “Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, says the Lord.”

Frankly, if some of the things you have said accurately represent Mcmanus and/or Mosaic, then I think you should take down the SBC doctrinal statement. There’s a mismatch there. I say, with great concern, that I think you are being deceived.

As for the denomination with the ring – the country I worked in is about 100 years away from being completely pagan. Those kinds of things are in all the churches, some more than others. I have to admit I didn’t expect it in the church I was in, because there was a Bible school connected with that church and I would have thought that they would have taught against such things. Sadly, the expat leader’s wife of the Bible school/church where this happened was very upset by my teaching that the future-foretelling was wrong. She had also been participating in it. The nationals were quite receptive, at least on the surface. Pagan practices are deeply ingrained in cultures in ways that people inside the culture don’t even recognize. And because there is often a real power behind the practices, they can be very difficult to break away from.

First off, that was not a direct quote from Erwin. It was paraphrasing what Jon took away from whatever conversation they had. I have told you that Erwin obviously doesn’t see eye to eye with Gordon. But here’s a dissection of the article.

God gave us free will and the power to choose. In choosing to have faith and believing in a brighter and better future, cultivating a grateful and appreciative heart, and practicing forgiveness we open ourselves up to amazing possibilities. We become a vessel God can use to mold into the people we were born to be… who share the love we were meant to share.

I don’t see how this is an issue. When we move towards Christ, we do move towards amazing possibilities. Did Paul not say “I can do all things through Christ”? Did Peter not walk on water? Did those at Pentecost not preach in unknown languages? If you disagree that when we are submitted to Christ he molds us to look more and more like the character he had in mind for us, then we might need to go back to scripture.

We are co-creators of our life with God. We are both creating and being created at the same time.

This statement looks different from a reformed and non-reformed perspective. If you believe that we have free will, then our decisions affect our life. If we choose to sin, that effects our life with God. At the same time, God is calling us to him, and trying to shape us to look like him. So, we are both creating and being created at the same time.  Notice that it doesn’t say we are co-creators of life.  We are co-creators of our life with God.

The universe is not some magic genie that’s says, “Your wish is my command,” bringing you any car, house, or amount of money you desire. The Secret does not exist to satisfy your every wish but to help us become the kind of people God can use to make His ultimate wish come true – Heaven on Earth and inside each one of us.

I think this is probably the most misunderstood part of it. Is God not constantly working to draw people to himself (again depends on how reformed your theology is). If God is working towards us becoming more like him, then I would say that his desire is to create something “heavenly” inside of us (our hearts). God wants to use us to help make this world obey and honor HIM.
Again, this was not a quote from Erwin, and it definitely doesn’t sound like his words. I wouldn’t hold Erwin responsible for them. Also, we have NO idea how many conversations Erwin has had with Gordon on this issue. For sll we know, he may be very close to coming to Christ. Also Amy, what church did you go to that tried to tell your fortune from you wedding ring. I have never heard of that practice before.

If I were a pastor and a friend of mine ran a site that I considered new age/demonic and quoted me in this way, I hope that God would give me the strength to:

1)Ask God for forgiveness for anything I had done in my relationship with that friend that seemingly gave them permission to do such a thing.
2)Apologize to my friend if I had not shared with him how dangerous his teaching was, to himself and others.
3) Ask that my name and my teaching be removed from the site so that
a) Christians would not be confused into thinking that what Gordon is teaching must be okay since he is quoting me. I would not want any Christian practicing anything that would give Satan an open door to their mind.
b)Non-Christians would not be misled into thinking that the power that they may contact by following my New Age friends teaching had anything to do with Christ. They might even think that they have become Christians, when they have never met the Christ of scriptures.

I would then write something that could be read by the public so that there was no confusion, not to protect myself from GBA nitpickers but to protect Christians from falling into demonic practices and to keep non-Christians from possibly believing they have come into a relationship with the Lord Jesus in a way that TRAMPLES ON THE BLOOD OF CHRIST.

Chris I have been in a situation a little bit like this. A couple of young married women came up to me after a women’s bible study overseas and were chatting. One of them asked about my wedding ring. She said she has always wanted one. She asked me if she could do a trick with it. I thought that she was going to do a “magic trick” in the way that we normally think of “magic” as in “slight of hand.” I gave it to her – and I don’t want to go into details, but basically, she told my future. Somewhere in the middle or right after this, I realized that this was no slight of hand. I walked home, overwhelmed by what I had let happen, in church no less, with the whole women’s group looking on. A few days later, on Sunday, I found the two women after church and said, “Did you really believe that what you found out about my future was true? Were you not just playing a game?” They affirmed, without shame, that yes they believed it was true; no they weren’t playing a game.

Sometime shortly after that, I think with in a week or two, I was scheduled to speak at the women’s meeting. I explained to all the women there, including the women who had done the magic trick, that I felt that what I had participated in was very wrong and that I needed to apologize. I shared several scriptures about divination, etc, and told them that I realize that these kinds of things have been a part of their culture for a long time – but that the Bible says that they are sin. I told them that I realized that they may have never even read these passages because they don’t have them in their language. I explained that God talks about them so seriously because they aren’t just superstitions, but that there can be demonic power behind them.

Amy,

I cannot speak FOR McManus, only what I have heard in discussions as talks. Erwin obviously does not have the same beliefs as Gordon. Gordon has asked Erwin to be interviewed on his show, and Erwin has accepted. I can tell you that Erwin has developed a relationship with Gordon “off the air” and that he is helping lead Gordon towards Christ.

Amy, I think this is a huge distinction between the Silvas and the McManuses off the world. Silva makes enemies with his approach to correcting false doctrine, while Erwin makes friends. It isn’t that Erwin backs down from his stance on the truth, but he invites people into a relationship with him, and influences them towards Christ. Silva simply slams people before they can talk about it together.

I go back to my illustration of Joseph. Could you imagine Joseph telling Pharaoh that he could work with him because they had differences in religion? No. God places people in strategic places to influence the influencers.

So, to answer your question in short: Erwin has publicly said before that they believe different things. Erwin is in Gordon’s life and influencing him for Christ. However, Erwin doesn’t feel like he needs to create a web blog attacking Gordon.

Let me get this straight – now, when Slice/CRN attacks someone, we need not only defend the person unfairly attacked, but we have to go out and find any heretic who quotes the person being attacked and prove a lack of Guilt-by-Association?

“Have you now, or have you ever been…”

Please.

The onus is on the attacker to prove his/her case, not the one being unfairly attacked…

 

Anything less is to confirm ‘proof by assertion’