Issue: Catholocism
Slice/CRN’s Take: The Catholic Church Apostate Church of RomeTM is a (if not the) primary root of all that is evil in Christendom. Just ask Ken, since I’m not sure he’s actually referred to it as anything but the ACoR.TM
My Take: While I attend a church that came out of the 19th Century Restoration Movement (within Protestantism), I consider myself to be a Christian (or Christ-follower) in the spirit of the first century church – neither ‘Protestant’ nor ‘Catholic’ – a part of a church of Christians, only (but not the only Christians…)Â
I have serious issues with all systematic theologies – Catholic and ‘Reformed’ – because they are artifical divisions based on nothing within Christ’s original church. HOWEVER, I would not dare to say that Catholics, Protestants – all those who hold to the gospel of Jesus, the Lordship of YHWH and the gift of the Holy Spirit – as a whole are not my brothers in the faith.
I have a number of Catholic friends, some of whom are willing to discuss spiritual issues – even the ones that we disagree on – and I just don’t see that it would do anything to my personal walk and witness to refer to their church constantly as the Apostate Church of RomeTM – in fact, I see that it would be anti-Christian to do so.Â
I have serious issues with the Catholic leadership model, the semi-deification (in practice) of Mary and the saints, the church hermeneutic which denies the ministry of all believers, and a number of other fundamental issues. HOWEVER, if I cannot treat them with charity as brothers, then I do not have the right to call myself a follower of Christ.
[I expect I will get a whole lot of flak for this stance, but I don't rightly care. I know far too many Roman Catholic Christians who DO take their faith seriously, who do consider the Bible to be the inspired Word of God, who do consider Jesus to be Messiah, who do consider YHWH as the one and only God of all, etc., etc. Jesus had some serious theolofical issues with the Essenes (who, have similarities to extremes in both Catholocism and hyper-Calvinism), and there are even some possible jabs taken at them in his teaching, but you never hear him call them out as apostates... His harshest criticism was for the Sadducees and some types of Pharisees who were far more interested in who's 'in' and who's 'out' than in mercy and justice, and so mine should be, as well...]
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11 Comments(+Add)
Catholics teach child baptism for salvation… Calvin taught this also. Yet, i bet most “Calvinists” would call that heresy.
Calvin & the Efficacy of Infant Baptism
Here is a quote from Calvin’s Institutes.
“. In fine, if Christ speaks truly when he declares that he is life, we must necessarily be ingrafted into him by whom we are delivered from the bondage of death. But how, they ask, are infants regenerated, when not possessing a knowledge of either good or evil ? We answer, that the work of God, though beyond the reach of our capacity, is not therefore null. Moreover, infants who are to be saved (and that some are saved at this age is certain) must, without question, be previously regenerated by the Lord. For if they bring innate corruption with them from their mother’s womb, they must be purified.”
Calvin was not too far off from what the Catholics taught. The big difference between most of the reformers was that the hierarchical structure went from the authority of the “Church and Pope” to the “authority of the scripture” or sola scriptura.
Blessings,
iggy
I am with you, I am not quite sure why so many people are hard-pressed with views on our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters.
Let’s see……………
1. You are assuming that we are all calvinists. Not true.
2, I do not hold to the practice of infant baptism
3.I agree with systematic theologies only in so far as they agree with Scripture.
4. Roman catholicism is fraught with way too many problems to be accepted on virtually any level. As a former RC adherent, student, altar boy etc, I can attest to that.
5. The RCC teaches that belonging to the church is what saves you, and in the next breath they say that still does not make it a certainty. This view of salvation is unbiblical.
6. I don’t care that they profess Jesus, since Jesus said many will come “in His Name” and say that He, i.e. Jesus is the Christ.He will say away from me, I never knew you.
They do not preach the Gospel found in the Word.
7. Besides Mary as co-redemptrix, i.e. goddess worship, we have relics, praying to the dead, canonization as the means to true sainthood, mysticism, the rosary, the “holy sacrifice” of the mass, limbo, purgatory, a separate priesthood, the vicar of Christ (this is a biggie), and the true biggie, magesterial authority over the Sciptures,well….., you can see what I mean.
Reading a good history of the church, like Brox’s Concise History of the Early Church, shows exactly how,where and when the empire of pagan Rome and the “church” united in unholy matrimony. The “church” then adopted the methods of persecution and pogroms, that were used against the earliest christians by the emoire, and used them against it’s “enemies”, i.e. Jews and the true overcomers who desired to see her come out of Babylon.
You are doing no one a favor by not telling them they are deceived, when they are. Anyone who is truly a believer would not stay in such a faith.
They make take “their faith” seriously but is their faith, the faith?
BTW, Jesus as a practitioner of the mosaic law, Torah, would be participating in a systematic theology. though certainly not one that man made.
Chris P,
Torah is not systematic – it is circluar in fashion and relevatory, not systematic (like Calvinism, Catholocism, etc.)
I don’t assume all of Slice/CRN is Calvinist – but there are a lot of tendencies there. As for your points, I know a number of Catholics who would disagree with your assertions (the same way I know a number of Emerging folks who look nothing like the assertions you make about their beliefs).
I don’t agree with them on a HUGE number of topics, but I don’t think they are ‘deceived’ and hell-bound. I also think a number of sins have been committed in the name of the RCC (of which you only name a few), and I know that similar sins have been committed (and still are) in the name of Protestant/Reformed theology – one need look no further than Slice/CRN to see it on display…
You say to-may-to I say to-mah-to.
Torah is God’s system of worship as practiced in daily life. The only thing “circular” is the dialogue around here.
My assertions come from personal knowledge. I could tell you stories. Anyway we are called out of Babylon, whether it be in Rome or protestantism or the ecm.
CRN is comitting no sins that I am aware of. You merely disgree with the pov.
First time commenting — I’ve been reading here for a long time though.
when people (CRN come to mind) willfully misrepresent things, people, etc, without taking the time or effort to actually find out the truth, take things in context, or maybe even read a book they’re talking about, I think that’s called lying, which I’m pretty sure is a sin. At the very least its lazy and irresponsible.
It just makes you wonder if they do the same thing with the Bible.
Chris P,
Torah study and the Kingdom are circular/cyclical religions (not systematic), as defined by theologians. For example, Judaism is a religion focused on the journey of individuals and people, whereas systematic religions are individualistic only and are focused on the destination. Your hyperbole is rather lame on this point.
As for RCC, there are multiple streams/divisions within the Catholic church which have almost as much diversity in tought and practice as Protestantism. Your broad-brush painting (as with the ECM) shows an utterly simplistic view, similar to saying “I’ve worked with the Navajo, and therefore I can tell you how all the American tribes work…”
As for the sins of CRN, the Third Commandment hasn’t been broken the way it’s been broken there since the Victorian era…
I’ll throw you another twist. Some in the Eastern Orthodox Church would tell you that Protestantism is just an off-shoot of the Roman Catholic Church. I think it was that reformation thing. Anyway, they would contend that they have changed nothing from the way faith and worship was practiced in the first century church, except for maybe the fancy hats. If you look at much of what they do, they support it biblically and by the writings of the early church fathers. The problem is that almost every person I have met on mission trips in Russia that say they are part of the Russian Orthodox Church hold to justification by faith and works. So within both the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic Church the minority believe in salvation in Christ alone. Now of course I have met a Baptist or two who would think their works save them. Here is the point: let’s not judge a book by its cover. Don’t assume every Roman Catholic you meet is apostate.
You don’t need to apologize for accepting Catholics as Christians. It is the divisive schismatics that need to apologize.
We should love God’s people wherever they may be found. I too have a number of issues with Catholic doctrine and practice, but then I could say the same about the Baptists.
I have wonderful daughter-in-laws that were raised Catholic. Fine Christian girls. (and they attend and evangelical Church with their husbands)
God weeps over the divisiveness within His Body. How can we ever love those without if we can not love those within.
Bruce
aka adventures in widely missing the point…
Wow, Ken – quoting Brian McLaren? At least you know you’ve been missing the point.
Thanks