Just for the record, I would like to explain (to the best of my knowledge) two widely misunderstood and misused words. Emergent and Emerging. They are not synonymous, but are often used as such. I have used this great article form Christianity Today for sources
Emergent
Emergent is an official organization in the U.S. and the U.K. Emergent Village, the organization, is directed by Tony Jones, a Ph.D. student at Princeton Theological Seminary and a world traveler on behalf of all things both Emergent and emerging. Other names connected with Emergent Village include Doug Pagitt, Chris Seay, Tim Keel, Karen Ward, Ivy Beckwith, Brian McLaren, and Mark Oestreicher. Emergent U.K. is directed by Jason Clark. While Emergent is the intellectual and philosophical network of the emerging movement, it is a mistake to narrow all of emerging to the Emergent Village. Some in the emergent camp have decided that the message needs to become relevant along with the method, and have strayed from orthodoxy.
Emerging
Emerging churches are communities that practice the way of Jesus within postmodern cultures. This definition encompasses nine practices. Emerging churches (1) identify with the life of Jesus, (2) transform the secular realm, and (3) live highly communal lives. Because of these three activities, they (4) welcome the stranger, (5) serve with generosity, (6) participate as producers, (7) create as created beings, (8) lead as a body, and (9) take part in spiritual activities.
Emerging catches into one term the global reshaping of how to “do church” in postmodern culture. It has no central offices, and it is as varied as evangelicalism itself. It has been labeled as such because it it “emerging” from a long period of history where the church has been characterized with complacency, laziness, self-centered theology and a love for the traditions of man over the spirit of God.
Please reference this article to educate yourself on the issue. I think it is important that we are all well aware of this as we begin discussions on the topic. Especially with those in discernment ministries hurling these words as insults, faster than we can blink. While Rob Bell and Erwin McManus have declared themselves to NOT be emergent, they would probably feel comfortable being labeled emerging. Happy reading and God Bless!
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26 Comments(+Add)
I don’t know about McManus, but Bell has rejected both labels, though you’re correct that EmergING would be much closer to describing both Mars Hill churches than EmergENT.
I know that McManus has rejected them as well. However, Mosaic really doesn’t have too much of a problem being called emerging.
If I were them I’d want to reject the label connecting me to this foolishness as well. But their theology is identical and Erwin McManus was going to be among the original members of the Terranova Project selected by Doug Pagitt. Hmmm, I wonder why? Erwin was dropped from consideration solely because of his ego. He had personality clashes with a couple of the members. Bell acknowledges that his friend Erwin encouraged him to write V.E. If it looks like…sounds like… etc., etc…
I think you should talk to Erwin about the REAL story behind that. You run off your mouth too fast Ken. If by “ego” you mean his unwillingness to compromise his theology for the Terranova project”, then yes, we was dropped because of his ego. But of course as a responsible “reverend”, you would have talked with Erwin about that before making a statement, right? right.
Nathan what makes you think you have the real story and I don’t? The mouth that runs too fast friend is yours. You have zero idea how I know what I know. And I know a lot more about this than you may think. I also know how the vote to install Erwin as pastor was presented as unanimous and yet there are those who remember voting no.
This issue is far from over and the Lord will bring to light Erwin’s Mosaic of Pain…if necessary one brick at a time until it all comes down around him for what he did to the Church on Brady.
Oh Mr. Silva you have NO idea who you are talking with or how little you know. I was there at the church when the vote took place. I was a part of the church there when Tom Wolf asked Erwin to be pastor. Tom Wolf was at my house less than 6 months ago. I know from whom and where you are getting your info. Do not assume to be an expert on an issue so far removed from you. But these days it seems that no issue, person or event is beyond the great grasp of Ken Silva. You have moved from being a discernment preacher to the leader of a high and might witch hunt.
Do not assume that your one side of the story is the complete truth. I assume that you never sat in a service at the Church on Brady, or was there when Erwin was voted in, or have even had the slightest fragment of a conversation with Erwin. Do not assume you are omniscient.
This is a very similar problem to the term “spiritual formation.†Many folks use this term to describe sanctification, discipleship, or small group fellowship. Some do use it as contemplative spirituality but discernment ministries such as Lighthouse Trails Research assume that anyone using the term spiritual formation such as Dallas Theological Seminary is practicing contemplative meditation. When I wrote them that this was not correct and that these groups are merely what they call their small group fellowships, their answer spoke volumes. They wrote, “Have you studied the teachings and proclivities of some of the men who teach Spiritual Formation at DTS? Did you know that Dr. Darrell Bock of DTS is on board with the Spiritual Formation Forum (Richard Foster, Larry Crabb,
etc.) https://www.spiritualformationforum.org/sff_board.html.†Well, Darrell Bock does not teach the spiritual formation groups nor does any professor, they are student led. The point is the broad brush strokes that seem to be common among these discernment ministries. It is so obvious that they do not understand how that term is used by the vast majority of evangelicals. Emerging, Emergent, Contemplative, purpose driven, and seeker-sensitive are terms that get abused. One might see fundamentalist or traditional as badge of honor while another might see that as everything that is wrong with the church. Who knows, CRN and LTR might even disagree as to what a discernment ministry is.
Boy, you (almost) have to feel sorry for Ken.
He’d gotten himself all puffed-up as a self-styled “expert” on a church he’d never visited, 3,000 miles away from him. Then he had the ‘guts’ to condescendingly sneer at someone else out of his so-called “knowledge”, only to be shot down because the person he was patronizing happened to go to that church and actually knew (and knows) all the players involved there…
Kinda ruins his whole ‘omniscience’ thing, and makes him something less than God… It seems “pastor” Silva’s knowledge was just about as trustworthy as a Bill Clinton mea culpa. I wonder if Ken’ll stop quoting scripture as if he were God? Somehow, I doubt it.
It certainly takes some kind of person to try to insert them self into a church dispute 3,000 miles away, trying to cause more division. It kind of brings Titus 3:10 to mind…
Ken, I think you may have failed to read a verse you once told me to read. Let me quote it here for you. ” Like one who seizes a dog by the ears
is a passer-by who meddles in a quarrel not his own.”
Proverbs 26:17
3000 miles. A quarrel not your own. Hmmmm, maybe it’s time to retire.
Ken,
RE: “If I were them I’d want to reject the label connecting me to this foolishness as well. But their theology is identical…”
Who is “them” in “If I were them…?” And who is “their” in “But their theology…?”
Driscoll, Kimball, Burke all have significant different theologies from Paggitt and McClaren.
Neil S.
The ability and willingness to distinguish between emergENT and emergING is the key to any credibility when one expounds on the subject.
If you cannot or will not see the distinction – you carry no credibility.
I have a hunch, sooner or latter, those in the orthodox camp, those who are consistent with the historical faith, those who are true Christians in the biblical sense will probably coin a term other than “emerging” just because of this confusion.
This is almost like describing the difference between Charismatic and Pentecostal. I guess you could say that terms have some meaning, but people in those traditions probably use the terms interchangeably. In the end, the fact of the matter is that you can’t really attack a word or label without attacking a person. Personally, I think in the internet world, it’s become much to easy for us to launch these drive-by attacks on fellow Christians without really even knowing them. I don’t think it was an accident that Jesus actually prayed that the Church would have unity.
I’m not saying that everyone who wears the Christian label is one, and that we should blindly accept everythings that comes down the pike. I just wish we could exhibit a little more grace when doing it.
Emergent. emerging, blah blah blah. I don’t see “preach the Gospel” on either to do list. Welcoming the stranger, poilitical activism, etc is done by multitudes of organizations that will never name the name of Jesus. I don’t care what they call themselves. I lump them all in with the RCC, EO. liberal theologies, and all other man-centered sects.
Talk about a pompous statement
“Emerging churches are communities that practice the way of Jesus within postmodern cultures.”
I practice the way of Jesus and I don’t become a relativist/collectivist to do it. I aslo don’t brag about the work that is being done in our church, unlike many of the pomo adherents.
Well I guess i have benn doing it wrong for my entire born again life.
Jesus did not focus on methods, or social welfare agendas.
If He came to cause a revolution, then by the worlds standards He is a total failure. he died and rose etc and the Romans were still in charge as well as the jewish religious leadership. Nothing changed in that sense. In fact things got worse. Perhaps He really meant it when he said “my kingdom is not if this world.”
Without an eternal goal, the journey is pointless.Without the Holy Spirit, good deeds are irrelevant.
Neil S.
The only confusion comes from the post-modern side, It is their modus operandi.
Phil,
Ain’t that the truth. Your reference to how the terms are used by those “within” the tradition brings up another good point.
When folks like Driscoll, Burke, and Kimball distinguish themselves from others – it’s disingenuous to come along from the outside and relump them together with some artificial guilt by association.
Like I’ve said before, there are things some of the attackers say that I may agree with, if they’d just do so with a modicum of humility and discernment.
And to make labelology even more complicated – the same terms mean difference things in different countries.
Neil S.
If anything, Mark Driscoll obnoxiously “preaches the gospel”. Every sermon ends with a call to repentance and to accept Jesus.
Chris P.,
Re: “Emergent. emerging, blah blah blah. I don’t see “preach the Gospel†on either to do list. Welcoming the stranger, poilitical activism, etc is done by multitudes of organizations that will never name the name of Jesus. I don’t care what they call themselves. I lump them all in with the RCC, EO. liberal theologies, and all other man-centered sects.”
This pretty much sums up all your errors in one fell swoop.
1) “Emergent. emerging, blah blah blah…” – shows you will not or cannot discern the difference- oh, the irony.
2) “I don’t see “preach the Gospel†on either to do list.” – shows you don’t look very deep, and/or are caught up on the use of modernist methodology. Again, lack or refusal of discernment.
3) “Welcoming the stranger, poilitical activism, etc is done by multitudes of organizations that will never name the name of Jesus.” – shows your propensity to guilt by association – so what if non-christians organizations do the same – heck, non-Christians sing songs – does that mean we can’t? How can this be condemned?
4) “I don’t care…I lump them all…” – this is probably the root of your inability to discern. Once, or if, you bother to care and stop lumping, you will see that there are significant differences.
Once again – to ignore distinctions shows a lack of ability or honesty – either way it voids the factuality of the statements make.
On a personal note – why the adamant refusal to acknowledge differences and then deal with the real problems?
Neil S.
Chris P, rather thn just “lump, lump, lump” coupled with broad (often incorrect or irrelevant) generalizations, how about you actually engage in dialog?
Pick a specific teacher/church/organization that is Emergent or Emerging (showing that you recognize one from the other), pick a specific teaching/topic with which you disagree, and then give your disagreements with that teaching/topic in a manner that extends some Christian charity in the possibility of mis-understanding.
For instance, you said:
I assume that this is to contradict the teaching/preaching of the Kingdom of God in a number of Emerging churches (because Ken has attempted to use the same reasoning).
If so (and I recognize it may not be so), I would say that you have a poor understanding of the Kingdom for a number of reasons:
1) Your quote from Jesus is in John 18:36, where Jesus is responding to Pilate’s questioning if he is the “king of the Jews”
The next verse, though, is key to understanding Jesus’ meaning in the phrase ‘of this world’
Note that he says that he “came into the world”. So, as the people of God understood the Kingdom from the time that they were resuced from bondage in Egypt, the Kingdom is not originated from (”of”) this world, but it exists (”came into”) in this world.
The Kingdom originated when God rescued his people from bondage in Egypt and gave them the Law on Shavuout (Pentecost) 50 days later (and 3000 died that day).
The Kingdom was arriving in force with the arrival of John the Baptist (Matthew 11:12), and its completion in arriving was on Shavuout (Pentecost) 50 days after Jesus’ death on the cross (and 3000 were saved that day).
2) The utmost concern for the poor, for the sick, for the widows, the fatherless and the alien is central to the kingdom – from the time of Moses (Deut 10:14-20) on through the time of the Apostles and beyond
Care for the poor is shown in the instructions given for Pentecost in Leviticus, and it is shown as central to the true Pentecost in Acts. In Leviticus 23:15-22, the Jewish people were given instructions for Shavuout. This feast is the celebration of the first-fruits of the wheat harvest. In verse 22, it is written:
Why? Because it is an abomination to God to thank Him for provision and then to refuse to share the abundance of your provision with those who have little or none.
Then, in Acts 2, we read of the first Christian Pentecost and at the end of this story, we learn that it was a true Pentecost to please God in vv. 42-45:
The Kingdom of God exists both here (where it, because of our failings, is still imprfect) and hereafter (where it is perfect). To deny this is to deny the core of what Christ taught in his ministry, teaching about the Kingdom of God/Heaven.
“Wow, look at my long answers! Maybe I’ll be heard for my many words.”
Ken,
“Wow, look at my one-line put-downs. Maybe people will realize I have nothing useful to say”
First off, wow. Ken that was the most childish response.
Chris P. – I had several problems with your response, but I want to address something that is often a misconception with your people. You wrote:
“Emerging churches are communities that practice the way of Jesus within postmodern cultures.â€
I practice the way of Jesus and I don’t become a relativist/collectivist to do it. I aslo don’t brag about the work that is being done in our church, unlike many of the pomo adherents.
Who said anything about BECOMING postmodern? We recognize that we are living in a postmodern culture, and so we recognize that we are ministering to people with a postmodern world view. Than changes HOW we present the message, not the message itself. You have to present the truth differently to a culture that believes truth does not exist. BUT, you don’t have present a different truth.
Chris P. Said:
“If He came to cause a revolution, then by the worlds standards He is a total failure.”
Yeah, you’re right. Everything is exactly like it was before Jesus came. Complete failure. At least he found the time to die for us so we could go to Heaven in the midst of all his useless “You have heard, but I tell you…” nonsense. I mean who did He think He was trying to tell those Pharisees they needed to alter their worldviews?
Ken said: “Wow, look at my long answers! Maybe I’ll be heard for my many words.â€
KenFish translation: I cannot refute the arguements, so I will now attack the character of the one presenting the arguement.
Ken,
Why the sarcasm and hostility? One of the things I find so frustrating is your lack of addressing specific questions and comments – and then this cutting sarcasm.
Seriously, from one brother in Christ to another… why so hostile?
Neil S.
Perhaps we should take this quiz just to clear up who’s emergent and who isn’t.
Tall Skinny Kiwi did and he came up Wesleyan.
http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870&first=yes
Everyone, I just scored an 89% Emergent/Postmodern. It seems I’m doomed.
And all this time I thought I was a just a good ol’ church of Christer…
I took that one a while back. Came out as 82% Evangelical Holiness/Wesleyan (which figures) and 71% Emergent/Postmodern (which less figures, but hey, maybe I’m doomed as well?)
I couldn’t fathom the 64% Neo orthodox. I’m either orthodox or I’m not, surely? What the heck’s “neo” about it?!