I gotta say, you guys are on a freakin roll!!!
When I first subscribed to the feed, there was little activity, but lately, there have been nothing but thoughtful, biblically sound, logically coherent arguments against the distasteful behavior of the watchdogs.

I really like your methods as well. You avoid childish namecalling, you stick to the facts, and my personal favorite, none of your posts are 5 liners full of vitriolic garbage, circa CRN.com. You take their spin, successfully and completely address it with coherent arguments, and shoot it back.

My favorite line:
“Because someone at some time used some thing to worship some other god (which is no god really) Christians for all time are prohibited from redeeming said things for God’s glory.”

Nail head, meet hammer.

Great work guys!

Nathan

Neil,
I agree that it sounds ridiculous to think that a shape is evil. I think that it is easy to go overboard on looking for the demonic. I don’t have answers to what’s “black” or “white” about all the matters that fall generally under the most broad definition of contemplative, including labyrinths.

I realize that by some of my comments you may think that I go overboard. Oh well . . . Here are some miscellaneous thoughts:

I think that people are more vulnerable to subtly thinking that something has power than they realize. It would be interesting, for example, to see inside people’s head when they open fortune cookies. How many people are doing it “for fun” and think it has no relationship to their future, and how many people have the tiniest feeling of “hope it comes true,” especially if it’s something good (which the predictions usually are, I think.)

From what I’ve read, at least non-Christians do think that a power “meets” them there at the center of the labyrinth. I’ve known a lot of Christians who would easily be led to think this. Is the danger ” no greater than someone thinking God favors them more if they add another zero to their check, or if they attend four weeks in a row.” I think it could be. Because I think that there could be a power that meets them there.

I want to share this story with you. I’m going to change the surface details, but generally the essence of what happened is something that happened to me. It’s made me think twice about being very cautious about coming under power that doesn’t come from God. What happened to Ben in my story is very much like what happened to me.

Imagine a man, Ben, who has had chronic neck pain that has been especially bad for a year. He is an American living out in the African desert and there’s nowhere to go for treatment. An American Christian, who is highly respected, who is a teacher at an evangelical seminary, visits his family. We’ll call this teacher Sam.

Sam hears about Ben’s neck pain, and says, ‘My brother had a lot of pain and I did some treatments on him that really helped. Can I try to help you?” Ben agrees. He sits in a chair; Sam stands behind Ben and very gently touches Ben’s neck.Ben waits. A little while later he feels another gentle touch. He thinks, “oh, maybe Sam’s going to very gently work on each and every knot.” Over a period of about 10 minutes, Sam barely touches Ben at all. Ben kind of wonders what’s going on, but one of his Christian friends is sitting in front of him, watching the whole thing, calmly, so he assumes all is well.

Suddenly Ben’s pain is gone. Completely. There isn’t even the slightest bit of tension.

The treatment stops. Ben is told to get up. He gets up. He has a strong desire to ask Sam, “What do you want me to do next? Please, tell me. I want to do whatever you say.” Ben must look kind of hazy or something because Sam tells him, “You need to shake it off.”

The pain stays away from Ben for awhile, but eventually comes back. But Ben is full of wonder. How did the pain leave? And why his feeling of “I want to do whatever Sam says? And why the need to be told to “shake it off” and the knowledge that there was indeed something to shake off?

Years later Ben find out that Sam had been doing all kinds of hand motions behind him, that he had been “realigning his energy.”

Neil, can you put yourself in this situation? Imagine that you are Ben, that you had no intention of doing anything that would get you in some kind of semi-hypnotic state, that you didn’t purposefully practice anything questionable? Yet, obviously something had power over you.

I hesitate to share this story, because it makes me feel extremely vulnerable and open to ridicule. And yet, this is one of the reasons that I believe that there is power out there that doesn’t come from God, power that can even affect Christians. There is no way that I or anyone else can analyze every little thing that comes along to “help one grow closer to God” and prove which ones have demonic potential and which ones don’t. I just really want people to be careful. There is so much that is wonderful about feeding on God’s Word and praying to Him, and so many things that can lead us away from that; things that sound good, and may even “work” but things that put one in contact with a power other than God.

Neil,
The way the story relates to symbols/rituals is simply this: Satan does seem to be able to use things that have pagan origins. There are a number of healing techniques that use pagan rituals that are used by both Christians and non-Christians. Some of them “work,” at least for awhile. Some Christians feel that they can simply “Christianize” pagan practices of healing. I find myself constantly asking, “Are the principles behind these practices scriptural?”

I don’t know if you’ve ever investigated theophostic healing. To summarize, Christians are led in prayers by other Christians that take them back to the original cause of their anger, bitterness, etc. They are taught that they can have a picture of Jesus back there with them in that situation. I have been told by counselors who practice this that a person undergoing this kind of counseling can have a picture of a “false Jesus.” This can be a picture of Jesus that seems like him, then distorts into something immoral or demonic.

I ask myself, regarding theophostic healing, is it biblical to think that one must discover the root of one’s anger to deal with it? Perhaps it can be helpful – but scripture tells us to put off sin, such as anger, through the power of the Holy Spirit. I also look at the whole idea of “getting pictures of Jesus” as extremely questionable, especially when the whole idea of receiving pictures as a person guides you is rooted in a pagan practice. I also realize the danger of having someone guide you in any kind of imagery – their questions can intentionally or untintentionally create a “vision.”

God is perfectly capable of healing someone, physically or emotionally, without resorting to pagan practices.

We are also perfectly capable of becoming intimate with God, worshipping Him, without using pagan practices. You say that “Some non-Christians may think a power meets them in the center of a labyrinth – they’d be wrong.” But how do you know that? Satan can and does meet people, and I would say he is especially free to do this if a person is invoking him, intentionally or not. The warnings in scripture against magic, divination, etc are there because there is a power behind them.

I have many friends that work overseas, from all kinds of church backgrounds, people who are mostly at the very least college graduates – I have yet to talk with someone who believes that the “magic” that pagans or even Christians practice is simply “superstition” and has no power. Most wise people won’t focus on the things they’ve witnessed or experienced because they know that that can be a way of bringing “glory” to Satan. The story that I shared with you is only one of many that I could share. I choose not to talk about this kind of thing often. But when a discussion comes up and I think that people are erring on the side of “Satan couldn’t possibly do that” when I think he very well could, I see the need to speak up.

As for my experience, “Sam” in real life is much more than I presented him. If I told you his education, job title, it goes way beyond Phd teacher at a seminary. I have no idea how he learned how to do what he was doing. I knew practically nothing about the practice at that time. Since then I have become aware that there are many people including Christians who practice this type of healing.

One of the reasons that it was such an important learning experience for me is that I had absolutely no knowledge that I was participating in anything that was invoking power from an outside source. Yet God allowed it to affect me. Sam told me that people often have to “shake off” what they feel after they are healed.

There are some horrible websites out there that see demons everywhere; I think that their focus is all wrong. But we need to be wise in not erring in the opposite direction.

Neil,
When I first read something on Labyrinths, about a year ago, it was on a site that was promoting labyrinths . It was presented as an ancient ritual whereby one could connect with the divine. If I remember correctly, it was being promoted for people of all faiths. I didn’t understand it as some “neutral” ritual.

If I went to that labyrinth, do I assume that though some may be using it as a means to promote communication with a divine being who is not God, I can then use it to reach God? Why should I go to any labyrinth at all? It seems to me that there is a direct parallel in this and trying to Christianize pagan methods of healing.

It would take a lot of convincing for me to believe that this should be considered a “neutral” technique.

I agree, Satan can use many things to get people away from God. But that doesn’t change the fact that there are things that are better left alone. I would be just as uncomfortable utilizing a labyrinth as I would a Tibetan singing bowl. I don’t see much difference in the two. Perhaps you do.

Things that are classified as “magic” and “divination” in the OT had specific rituals behind them. God never said, “Go ahead and practice that ritual, because it has no power.” He commanded people to stay away from all of it.

Neil,

Okay, let’s say that a labyrinth is not “ontologically evil” in itself.

Neither are rings from the top of coke cans. What if, in my village, a “witch” uses one of these rings in a ritual to heal the sick? Do I then take that piece of metal to church and hold it in my hands while praying for people’s healing? It has no power in itself, but it has been used “magically” for evil. Do I use any metal rings, ever, for healing? Would doing so be abusing the term “neutral?”

How is using a labyrinth different from this? Isn’t the whole concept of centering deeply imbedded in pagan thinking, and isn’t the labyrinth related to that? Isn’t it thought to have magic power? Why purposefully copy it?

It may seem like I’m just trying to win an argument – I’m really trying to understand your thinking. It’s also possible that you know more about the background of labyrinths than I do.

Sure, singing can be used in pagan rituals, but that’s not the primary history of how singing is used. Singing is also encouraged in scripture. Labyrinth walking isn’t.

I just don’t understand why you don’t think there cold be any parallels between the things I’ve suggested and labyrinths.

Amy,

You said:

Sure, singing can be used in pagan rituals, but that’s not the primary history of how singing is used.

Actually, singing and chanting were primary means of worship in Egypt prior to and during the time in which Israel was enslaved there, and it was a primary means of worship of baal, ashteroth and pagan gods.

Your Coke example also seems much more specifically contrived than would be parallel to the use of labyrinths (not all or even most of which was pagan in origin). Maybe a better question in your example would be whether you should ever drink Coke out of a can in the presence of those weaker brothers.

This also seems to have some parallels with the situation described by Paul with the eating of meat sacrificed to idols. While there is nothing wrong with doing so, would exercising this freedom cause another brother to stumble (i.e. to be led into sin)? This would be a good question for the leaders in the Vintage Faith church. Apparently, though, they have answered this in deciding that there are no ‘weaker brothers’ within the congregation who believe labyrinths are ontologically evil.

The next question would be, what business of Ken’s is this? The answer would be ‘none’. He is playing the classic role of Joe Sixpack in his La-Z-Boy, complaining about Peyton Manning’s play calling. The last time I checked, Dan wasn’t growing a hedge-maze in New Hampshire…

Neil,
I used a metal ring example because where I have worked those kinds of things-metal, shiny,-appear to be being used in some magic practices – a modern addition to whatever they used before.

I had thought of the weaker brother application this afternoon in connection with labyrinths, thinking through whether or not it could apply. I’m not sure that one can apply “weaker brother” principles to magic practices. 1)Eating of meat sacrificed to animals was not thought to have some magic power, or was it? 2)God still condemns magic in the NT, in spite of the weaker brother principle. But I guess as long as you aren’t going to consider that “labyrinthing” could be a magic practice, these thoughts are irrelevant.

Let’s say that a church does, rightly or wrongly, apply the weaker brother principle to labyrinths as well as to yoga, and that there is no evil in practicing these things “under Christianity.” Then I would ask, what kind of steps have they taken to educate their congregation about the dangers of yoga and walking in a labryinth outside of the church somewhere? About investigating such things on a website? It’s so easy to go on a Christian website and venture from “Christian meditative practices” to new age meditative practices, from Jesus is the way, to Jesus is one of many ways. It’s so easy to learn how to pick up a spirit guide.
__________
You’ve said: “In your example you have the Christian taking the metal to church to heal – the same purpose. Suppose a shaman beats a drum to conjure a spirit. Later he comes to Christ. Cannot he not know (now) use his drum to worship?”

A Christian who wants to heal using some pagan means would like your argument I think. But he would present it differently than you.
He would say,
1)”The shaman takes his metal to church to heal in the name of Satan. I take my metal to church to heal in the name of Jesus.” This was in fact the kind of thing that was happening in the Catholic village near us.

2)He might continue, as you have, “Suppose a shaman beats a drum to conjure a spirit. Later he comes to Christ. Cannot he not now use his drum to worship?”

I believe that 1 is okay, and 2 may or may not be okay. What is the difference? I think the difference is this. A Christian who takes his metal to church to heal is using it as a talisman. He doesn’t really believe that God can heal without this crutch. A Christian who is using his drum to worship may be doing it in an okay way or not. If he thinks that by using his drum he is manipulating God’s presence or warding off God’s wrath, as he invoked the presence of evil spirits or warded off their wrath – especially if he thinks that he HAS to play it for this to happen, then his use of the drum is wrong. He needs to be taught that it is something that can be used scripturally, to worship God. He can be taught scriptures about music in worship. If he needs to make totally new rhythms as an aid in freeing his mind from his past bondage, that’s what he needs to do. If he needs to forsake the drum forever or for a time, that’s what he needs to do.

In my thinking, the labyrinth is, for non-Christians, like #1, although the labyrinth will more than likely be only one of many ways they have of connecting with the divine, being empowered by that divine. Can a non-Christian use a labyrinth, as in #2? I personally don’t see how it applies. There are no scriptures that talk about worshipping in any set spacial pattern, unless you want to make some kind of type out of the OT outer court, inner court, Holy of Holies, etc. Whatever the case, we no longer worship at the temple. I am “in the Holy of Holies” when I pray. I don’t need to walk to the center of a labyrinth to have more intimacy, power from God. It seems like a cheap substitute for the reality.

I wonder if, under our differences in this, lies your statement, “You say that “Some non-Christians may think a power meets them in the center of a labyrinth – they’d be wrong’ and my strong belief that a power most definitely can meet them there. You later said that Satan can use anything – but I don’t think that you’ve seriously considered how much he can use labyrinths (and yoga for that matter, judging by one of your earlier comments) and how damaging it can be to the church.

Just one closing note – the Catholic village on our island was full of “Christianized” pagan practices – it was the most pitiful village I saw anywhere I worked. Some of the people practiced magic, they got “possessed,” etc. They don’t understand the power of God. They are full of fear. FEAR like you’ve probably never known, fear of the spirits around them. I see going back to copying pagan rituals as a way of inadvertently introducing people to evil spirits. All other arguments aside, if even one person in a church that is open to Christianizing pagan practices becomes oppressed by an evil spirit through those practices, it’s simply not worth it. Also, if even one person is led into thinking that all ways lead to the divine, it’s not worth it.

Surely part of being “culturally relevant” should be contextualizing scripture, strongly considering what “magic” is in the culture in which one is a part of, and trying to avoid it.