Ok, without attacking him, what would you do if this guy was your neighbor? Once you swallow your anger, wait until you get to #10 it will be an arrow to your heart. For some reason, I’m no good at putting video into this BLOG so I’ll have to link you to mine. Go here watch this video that is intended to prove how foolish our faith is, then come back and answer how you would handle it if he’s your neighbor.
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18 Comments(+Add)
Joe,
First, I don’t think I would be angry with him (Sad, yes – Angry, no).
A number of his premises are based on poor understanding of Christianity, itself. “Name it and claim it” crowd arguments nonwithstanding, the purpose of prayer is not to put a quarter in the deux ex machina to see if a miracle comes out. I would recommend Northpoint/Andy Stanley’s series on prayer (#4 last week in iTunes religious podcasts) for a much better understanding on the purpose of prayer.
Since this guy seems to be a prostelytizing atheist, I’m guessing that if he were my neighbor, we would be able to actively talk and discuss his questions. Besides the issue of prayer, we would also have to discuss the difference between literalism (his interpretation of communion is even more literalist than most of Chris P’s rants) and contextual interpretation. We would also have to discuss the difference between 20th Century modernism (the lens through which he is trying to interpret the Bible) and 1st Century Hebraic thought (the context in which the Bible was written).
For the question on God’s commands in the OT (which, FYI, Jewish tradition tells us that there is no record of a disobedient child ever being put to death, with a good contextual reason why…) and the redemptive hermeneutic. The Bible does not support slavery, but it gave instructions on how to treat slaves that were much better than what they had been receiving up to that point in any culture (and it taught that all slaves had to be freed in every Jubilee year).
I didn’t find his questions all that difficult, and I think patience and friendship with the working of God could bring this man to repentence.
COMPLETE ASIDE:
#10 was very sad, but I also question the statistics that lead to it. When conducting surveys, most people who darken the door of a church once a year (Christmas and/or Easter) will indicate ‘Christianity’ as their religion and are included in the statistics. The most recent statistics I saw on this (I think it was Gallup) would also have you believe that >70% of the country is Christian, but I can pretty much guarantee you that nowhere near 210 million people regularly attend church services or small groups.
Having any divorces in the church is a tragedy, but I would question that statistic.
Unfortunately, I would not question it (the divorce). I agree that it’s probably over inflated, to some extent but it’s still sad. I wouldn’t get angry with Him either, in fact we’d probably have a good time. But I know many who would.
Question #1 Does he know amputees who have asked for that miracle? I will admit, it is a tough question. But think about it. We don’t know that God has not regenerated limbs for people. He could have done this but chosen not to do it as a public act. People with cancer certainly pray that it will be gone but I wonder how many amputees pray for a new limb.
Question #10 Echoing Chris L., that statistic on divorce is based on people who say their Christian. How would the survey look if we surveyed spiritually developing Christians that are active in church and read their Bible regularly? I think the number would be astronomically lower. Think about it. How many people do you know that are active members at your church that have divorced. Is it 50%? I bet it is much more like 2 or 3%. In the last 13 years at my church, I know of 3 couples that have divorced out of the 100 or more that I know.
The rest of the questions are not easy to argue, but thankfully God gives us the faith to be satisfied in Him to control all things.
Press On,
Actually as i stated on the blog…
#10 is not true globally, rather it seems to be more true here in the USA… meaning it may have more to do with the “Americanized gospel” than Christianity as a whole.
Blessings,
iggy
I missed the most important part of your question…
“what would you do if this guy was your neighbor?”
I meet people like this all the time… mostly just talk to him… or if he is antagonist avoid him… if it a friendly antagonist… well in return… I would challenge his view with the REAL gospel as opposed to the shallow one that thinks it has all the answers.
“So answer question 1 iggy” he would demand
I would reply, “I will, but answer me this… why are you worthy of even asking God any such question? What makes you think God really owes you any explanation about anything… I mean… He is a busy God running the universe… so answer my #1 question… why should God care about a person who is deep down a sinner…like you and me anyway? Then if you think I should still answer #1, you are a hypocrite for even suggesting that there is a God that will not heal amputees… For if there is no God as you suggest, who really gives a damn about anything anyway? Go and have your “fun”… and leave me to my delusions as they make me happier than your reality.”
Or something like that… all said and delivered like two armchair theologians at a pub over a pint of Guinness.
Blessings,
iggy
I would also ask him, that if he did witness an amputee being healed by growing a new limb, would he repent and believe. We will never know the answer to every question in this life and when we get to Heaven and can have the answer, we will not care anymore. Darren
As I commented at the linked site. Who cares?
The propensity to “test” and entrap is a device used expertly by sadduccee and pharisee alike. Our response to this man, other than the Word of God, is irrelevant as we do notn “save” anyone. Let the sovereign God choose to reveal Himself to this man, if that is is His will.
A fool says in his heart………indeed!
So, is that what you would tell him Chris P?
This article shows a different side of the marriage statistics. I’ve heard the stats about Christians and divorce, but this seems to show that there is some difference.
Link didn’t work above. Here it is…
http://mondaymorninginsight.com/index.php/site/comments/interesting_christian_divorce_rate_statistics/
It’s interesting that “frequents” scored lower, be they Evangelical, Catholic, or Jewish.
Neil
If it were my neighbor and we were discussing these on a regular basis – I’d commend him for clever thinking, re: the whole amputee question.
But seriously, most of his contentions were base on what he believed “made sense” or was “reasonable.” I’d start with his perspectival definition of sensible.
Neil
If this guy moved into my neighborhood, I would welcome the situation as a good opportunity to have a long-term relationship with a non-believer. Having a neighbor so willing to talk about God might actually be nice. Many people treat talking about God/religion as something taboo.
I would pray for him. I would probably pray that somehow we would strike up a friendship if there were no natural way to meet. Maybe he would stop by my garden to talk as other neighbors do. I would try to listen to him, and give a response that would please God.
My daughter would probably want to bake a pie for him, because that’s the kind of thing she likes to do for new neighbors.
If he had a dog that howled all night, or played loud music while I’m sitting on the deck listening to the quiet, however, my “spirituality” would be put to the test.
Amy,
My neighbors have a “soundproof” room in their garage where they play music that isn’t all that talented until odd hours of the night. Amazingly, the “soundproof” room doesn’t stop the music from coming into my house. My “spirituality” has been tested many a night!
I live on several acres in a very quiet neighborhood. It’s actually my dogs who bark and keep me awake sometimes.
Some more thoughts about this guy:
I believe that at some point it might become very clear to me that I should have nothing to do with him.
This presentation reminds me so much of another one that I came across that I wonder if it’s the same person. There was a man named “John” who came to “discuss” things with Ken Silva. I clicked on his website – he introduced himself as an intellectual Christian who had come up with a fail-proof way of explaining the gospel. I worked my way through all the little presentations to make my way to the last one where “the gospel” was finally supposed to be revealed. I got some message like – “you must have clicked on the wrong thing; I believe you meant to go here” – then it took me back to another place I had already been.
I’ll never know whether that was a mistake of the program or intentional. The program was so well done that it was completely out of place to have such an “error” on it. That, combined with the guys high opinion of his “intellectualism” made me very suspicious.
A side note – I get very peeved by people who equate intelligence with certain types of jobs to the exclusion of others, such as “hands-on” jobs like carpentry, mechanics, etc.
Amy,
Good points regarding intellectual snobbery and this guy’s disposition in general… most of the comments, mine included, assumed that we could have a serious conversation with this neighbor.
If he were just looking for a fight, I’d be polite, try to befriend him as much as possible, but not lose any sleep over his disposition.
Neil
1) “God doesn’t heal amputees” is an claim that requires thorough knowledge of all amputees throughout history. It also necessitates active disbelief of all anecdotal claims to the contrary.
God is sovereign. It’s silly to presume that he would move at people’s whims.
2) God created enough food on this planet to feed everyone, but man hoards it.
3) No one is innocent (Romans 3:22-24).
4) Weak examples of argument from incredulity.
5) Hyperbole. The Bible is not a “huge proponent” of slavery. It set humane guidelines for labor systems which we would call employer/employee relationships today.
6) No one is good (Romans 3:10-12).
7) Self-refuting. The Bible itself contains eyewitness accounts. Besides, what “evidence” would satisfy this claim? A bunch of fish bones and crumbs littering a hillside?
9) Communion is a symbolic act of rememberance of Christ’s sacrifice (body) and imparted Life (blood).
10) We have free will and often choose to sin, which is all the more reason why we need a Saviour.