Her “One Thing†– Amazing leaps of Non Sequitur Logic:
I’ll first admit I’m unfamiliar with CRM Leadership. But a reading of their belief statement shows they are Trinitarian, hold to the inerrancy of Scripture, the Deity of Christ (and his Virgin Birth). They believe man is sinful and apart from faith in Christ will suffer an eternity separated from God. The primary purpose of the church, according to CRM, is to worship God, build up believers, and share the Gospel… so… they fit nicely with all the major tenants of the historic orthodox faith, right?
Not according to Dwayna Litz and CRN who tie them to Satanism – through one amazing leap of non sequitur logic.
Given CRM’s thoroughly biblical orthodox belief statement what does Dwayna and CRN draw on to make the connection? A CRM Leadership video showing their primary ministry using the theme of “One Thing.†The use of the phrase “one thing†as a repeating tag line, and probably worse, the song “One Love†by U2 as a background accompaniment are the offending acts.
According to Dwayna: “The Satanists have a favorite saying at Venice Beach. Guess what it is? ‘One Love’ (just like the song depicts in the Christian, emergent video).†And that’s the totality of her argument… and even that statement is undocumented. So, since the Satanists of Venice Beach use the phrase, it’s… I can’t even type it the logic is so incredulous. What power Dwayna gives these Satanists – the very power to affect a word’s ontological meaning.
Someone at CRN added a bit of commentary… too bad it lacks cogent logic as well. As usual, the commentator lifts a couple lines out of context and blasts them saying Satanists and Buddhists would love their inclusiveness. They choose to exclude the phrases “…with one purpose, the heath and effectiveness of the church†and “…no one should live in despair, not when Jesus Christ has come.†Yeah, that should sit pretty well with Satanists and Buddhists – healthy effective churches spreading the hope of Jesus Christ.
Anyway, the CRN commentator then makes an outlandish and unsubstantiated statement – the word “Hell†will never be mentioned. I wonder how they know this? Doesn’t matter that CRM clearly defines that those apart from Christ face an eternity separated from God.
I wonder why they ignore those phrases; I wonder why they pick and choose sound bites to create a false impression – most likely because it would not fit the argument.
Their motto could be, “If a quote does not fit, then the quote we will clip!â€
31 Comments(+Add)
Ms. Litz also believes Mike Warnke and Lauren Straford were innocent and had valid ministries… and that John Trott of JPUSA was being used of Satan to slander Mike and Laurena’s ministries… Since then Ms. Litz has accused JPUSA as being a Satanic front…
Now that being said in relation to your post…
Her depth of research is often whatever she believes is true at the time… not that facts matter…
as far as the Warnke/Stratford issue, Laurena “helped” a friend of Ms. Litz and she found Laurena to be “nice”.
It seems that laurna is a very good conman and Ms Litz has no real discernment at all…
Of all the CRN writers I am at a toss up who is worse… Ken Silva of Ms. Litz…
Dwayna Litz’s articles should be closely looked at as I have not seen one that has not had some very huge lie or mistake in it.
Blessings,
iggy
BTW,
I have been emailing Mike Ratliff and after some very rough patches I find out he does not feel that he has to be accountable for what others write… that he is not guilty by association…
Even after I asked him to hold his “friends” at CRN accountable he did not think he had to be…
So much for accountability…
Even if you came to my blog and told me I was totally wrong or that if I had a guest writer say something I would look at it and see if that it needed to be better researched.
I admit I am a bit loose at times but that is often to make a point… and I always link to a viable source or at least put a disclaimer if I sense it is not as reliable as it could be… yet, these guys just write things off the top of their head and then say, “I did not write that, I am only accountable for what I write as a contributor to CRN”. Yet hold me as a heretic for associating with the EC… can’t have it both ways now can we?
Blessings,
iggy
And Dwayna as a woman should not be in a position of the correction of elders unless you believe women can be elders. She comes from the lineage of Ingrid who herself acted in the correcting capacity to chasten ordained men of many persuasions.
The video is a little slick but a cursory reading of their statement of faith seems orthodox. But to equate them with Satanism is close to the unpardonable sin which Jesus said was attributing the works of God to Satan. It is one thing to say they are liberals, or neo-conservatives, or compromisers, or ecumentical church of deceit, or many other labels.
But to not so subtily attach them to Satanism is an extremely serious accusation that if wrong should be repented of and the person who made the careless accusation should be removed from posting. Can CRN police their own site and lovingly correct a sister?
Iggy, I was once a very small contributor to Slice (I’ll bet they rue that day) so everyone deserves some space. Mike Ratliff is a genuine and humble believer who has much to say that benefits many readers including me and I count him as a friend. His articles are not in the same league as most of the other writers at CRN and he knows how I feel and yet we can be friends.
We must all pray for discernment which comes to all of us differently. My fore into the Slice community came with an orthodox endorphin rush but eventually left me with a self righteous hangover. On paper, minus the reformed theology, I would agree with the assertion that the church is changing too fast and in the wrong direction, but their methodolgy as evidence by this woman Dwayna is so unbiblical it renders them irrelevant except in their own mind. Much zeal, little compassion.
Mike Ratliff is a righteous man, read his blog and pray for him as you pray for me as you pray for yourself. I appreciate your comments.
Dwayna also quotes J-Mac saying that lent is not only “unbiblical”,but is also pagan. I am at a loss for words.
peace,
opus
I tried to post a comment on the Christian worldview network that she printed from disagreeing with her and shock of all shocks it didn’t’ get published.
Henry (Rick) Frueh,
What I have dealt with Mike is that he has judged me a few times as a heretic then admitted at least three times he has never read anything I have written…
He has judged Chuck Missler (as i referred to him as one of my influences) as one who just tickles my ears, then admitted “someone” gave him bad info on Missler. He has never apologized yet has told me I must repent! When I asked for a specific thing that I have said that I needed to repent from he did not even respond…
He has never responded until the last few emails to me in a loving manner… in fact he has told me I do not have the Light of Christ in me or I would be able to discern heresy around me… then used a verse out of context to back up his point… I let him know that it was referring to John and the other Apostles that had seen and heard… and that it was a stretch for Mike to say he has been there with John at the time of the writing… sooooo all the accusations seem to come back to him, yet we refuses the face himself in the mirror… I can only say, judging by the fruit I have seen of him… he has a lot of head knowledge yet is missing a lot in the actually walking out of his faith.
We are, after many heated email exchanges… finally at a point where he will “look at what I sent him”… so he can judge me further…
The point is that he wrote on accountability, and has rebuked me for asking him to hold those at CRN to be accountable for what they write… as well as holding each other to a higher standard than what is there at present…
Godly or not, judgementalism without any fact as with Ms. Litz and as I have received from Ken Silva and even Mike Ratliff seems to run rampant throughout CRN and they need to be called on it… or they will face God’s judgement… as they have usurped Jesus from the Throne as He is the Righteous and perfectly Just One…
Blessings,
iggy
I think what freaked Dwayna out was the repeated use of the word “emerging”. Whatever. It’s only a word. They could have used the word “young” or “new”. Nothing in their doctrine appeared emerging, emergent, or liberal.
By the way, why does CRN keep calling Tony Campolo emergent? I’d just consider him liberal. The emergent label doesn’t really fit him.
It’s just another tedious tantrum from the fringe…
Matt,
You asked:
It pretty much stems from intellectual laziness, which is the same wellspring of their refusal to acknowledge the difference between ‘Emergent’ (noun) and ‘emerging’ (adjective). When you paint with a broad brush, it’s best that the surface you’re painting is as broad as possible…
Dwayna would rather scare people out of hell than love them into heaven.
Everytime I try to access her article on worldviewnetwork or whatever it is I can’t get it to come up. Anyone else having that problem?
There must be a discernment among individuals in certain groups. Isn’t that what many emergents call for? I mean is Mark Driscoll the same as Spencer Burke? That is my point, Mike Ratliff is light years from the Silva school of humility.
I have judged people I shouldn’t have, I have rushed to the heresy label, I have metaphorically pontificated, and I have felt a carnal contentment when rebuking others. I have found Mike as I have said and he is a pray-er, so maybe some forbearance would help. Also, sometimes pressure for someone to quickly address someone or something causes us to retrench.
I have chosen to be edified by his writings which are very Spiritual without always seeing CRN in everything, and I am confident that God will continue the refining process He desires for all of us.
Remember Silva isn’t hiding behind every bush!
CRN’s position seems to be one of throwing both the baby and the batwater down the drain. If it isn’t 100% orthodox according to their belief system (which I really have a hard time dicerning what that actually is), there is no good in it. It is a total distortion of biblical principles, and is actually a very dangerous place to be. I know where they are coming from, as I grew up with people like that. They have all the condemnation of doting fundamentalists, while heaping on all the guilt of the Wesleyan Holiness crowd. (Hopefully, you can tell I’m saying this somewhat tongue in cheek).
BTW, I don’t know why they include Campolo with their fictionalized “Emergent” strawmen either. Sometimes I wonder if people actually read the whole book they’re quoting from. I actually do like a lot of the stuff Campolo says. I tend to differ with him more from a political standpoint than a theological one, if that makes sense.
Rick,
I have publicly stated that Mike Ratliff is one of the better one’s and even given him kudos, yet still have on a personal level been judged by him…
He may be “miles” apart from Ken Silva or Ms Litz, but he is still not far from the same tree….
My point is that if Mike is teaching others about accountability, he needs to act on it not fudge his way around it.
If I am at church and see a “wolf” taking a small child into the bathroom to have his way, and I go, “it is not my child” I am still guilty… I let that person do harm to others.
Jesus calls us to stand against those who will harm the weak.
In that I am pointing out that while Mike is a lesser bully, he is still a bully, though he stole my mild money money, and left me some money to buy lunch… he stood there as the bigger bully stole my lunch money also…
If CRN is judging with a broad brush and saying all emergents/emerging are heretical and going to hell and are not even brothers… then one who has some integrity needs to stand up.
Maybe you are doing that and I applaud you!
If I wrote on the same blog as Brian McLaren, or spoke on the same platform as him I would address some of my concerns with him… first privately then openly as I have with Mike… I would not just shrug my shoulders and say… “I did not write that so do not judge me”.
I have been judged a heretic by some because I have a link to Brian Mclaren… and then am told that what i write is rather conservative…. but still the link makes me a heretic?
Blessings,
iggy
Oh joy! Now Mr. Silva is defaming Dallas Willard as an “Emergent Conspirator”. I know I should just ignore such idiocy, but it’s so frustrating to me because I know there are people who actually believe what is printed there.
The funny thing is that the Christianity Today article Ken mentions is 8 months old. I’m not sure when the article on “Apprising” was written, but that seems to be around when the original CT was written. Methinks Mr. Silva is fishing for hits on his website.
“Divine Conspiracy” is one of the best Christian books written. I don’t know how anyone could say it’s anything but orthodox.
Iggy, the link to MacLaren doesn’t make you heretical but it calls into question the scope of your approval. My point is this, the emergent thing is still emerging (!) and those who are rising up to confront some of the more extreme elements are still in the formative (emerging) stage of how to deal with it. Some have obviously taken a caustic and self righteous approach while maybe some are yet being molded through time and experience and the Spirit’s looking glass.
When someone like yourself attacks back, especially to some of the less shrill elements of the orthodox camp, it just fortifies what the orthodox watchmen have told everyone you were. Why not give some space to an “emerging” element of the orthodox crew who are struggling with how to approach and how to dialogue with brothers with whom they have very strong disagreements with?
When I was riding my white horse I enjoyed the battle with emergents who would respond in like kind, it was the more humble and peaceful ones that God used to help me examine my own tone and approach. It is time for divine incubation on many fronts and so many things are rapidly changing that we all must assess our behavior and conversation within the framework of Jesus’s shadow.
I am sure some have called me a heretic but so what? There is only one we must answer to and if someone’s label causes me to run deeper into the Scriptures than I say with Joseph, “You meant it for evil but God used it for good!”. If you believe that God would rather have you link with MacLaren than with Ratliff than you and I have a distinct different perspective. Very distinct.
For every inspection of others we must have a double dose of self inspection. I am usually shocked when the Holy Spirit walks into one of my rooms and flicks on the light.
Rick,
RE: “And Dwayna as a woman should not be in a position of the correction of elders unless you believe women can be elders.”
I think this is a non-starter. She writes a blog. In this case her target is a para-church organization. Therefore I don’t think the elders and/or women under authority applies.
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Everyone,
That said, what prompted me to write the blog was her leap to conclusion… she actually made the connection from CRM to Satanists because they used the song “One Love.”
Let’s apply this logic to something directly from the pages of Scripture – the rainbow. We all know that it is a a biblical symbol for God’s faithfulness to his promises. But it’s also used as a symbol of pride by the gay & lesbian community.
Using Dwaynian logic – since it’s used as a gay pride symbol it cannot be used as a symbol of God’s promise keeping. She (and all those who do this sort of thing) give more power to the Satanists et. al. than they rightfully have.
Neil
Neil, her correcting ministry is not limited to “para church” organizations. I wrote about it some months ago
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2006/11/elder-blogs-some-blogs-are-devotional.html
Rick,
“Iggy, the link to McLaren doesn’t make you heretical but it calls into question the scope of your approval.”
To even say this is sort of showing that you have some more growth… (Not a cut but rather discernment)
I am open to what I agree with and do not agree with on my blog, so even a blanket statement you have made here shows that without all the knowledge or even that by your interaction with me, that I show a questionable scope of approval.
I also link to many others I do not agree with fully. A link is not always a sign of approval.
Also, I have most probably read and listened to more of Brian’s books and I will lay that at least 90% of the accusation against him are not true but are twistings or partial statements that he has made that have been contorted into something other than he wrote or said during a seminar or teaching.
To me Brian is one who is allowing others to question, not leading them to answers… and that is the biggest misconception about him.
Does he believe in hell? I think if you read his books you will find he does… but there is a major misconception about heaven and hell in the Christian church today… what we say in a generic term as heaven that is now, will not be eternal, as we will live in a NEW HEAVEN and NEW EARTH… that is the point Brain does bring out… as far as eternal torment, I think whether one is pro torment or and annihilationist there is enough proof on either side that we can all realize either of these are not what God wants nor want we should want of others… we should be more focused on keeping people out of hell all together.
I have expressed that the move toward Universalism is not a very good one, yet even in that most do not realize there are different types of universalism… all agree that the Unitarian version is not the right one…
So, with a little more study, I think most will find that Brian may be labeled more a “liberal’ (with some broad brushed sweep there also) and be assured that heretic is a bit too much of a label for even him.
I agree there are those I am very uncomfortable with yet I fine more actual fellowship in the Grace of God than I do with many I used to fellowship with. We both can agree that the Life lived in grace speaks more loudly than the blow horn of hate that is often given as the gospel.
Blessings,
iggy
Brian MacLaren’s teachings are very mercurial and designedly difficult to follow. He wades in and out of orthodox teachings and sometimes borders on Universalism. His students will carry his thoughts into a complete Biblical entropy. Your view of his teachings and mine are at opposite ends. His so called questions have already been used to unravel sound teachings and people like Burke have springboarded off them to achieve undeniable heresy..
By the way, MacLaren seems like a nice guy.
Rick,
You raise some good questions in our blog. I’m not sure I completely agree with your conclusion that bloggers who criticize are acting as elders – but I have not given it sufficient thought either. Good thoughts though.
Neil
Which beliefs of John Burke’s are heretical?
Neil
Neil,
I believe he’s referring to Spencer Burke. Here’s Bob Hyatt’s review of his most recent book:
Part 1: http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/bobblog/2006/08/oh_spencer.html
Part 2: http://bobhyatt.typepad.com/bobblog/2006/10/oh_spencer_pt_2.html
Rick,
We do agree with Brian sounding like a nice guy… (Grin)
I do understand your assessment, yet to call a guy a heretic because he raises thoughts that other may take too far is really not fair.
Also, again, I have written about my concerns… yet even in doing that I find that most of the things I have to write about are the unraveling of what others have misinterpreted about what he said… (arrgh a tough sentence to even write.)
As i have pointed out to others at CRN it is hard enough to deal with the real problems in the ec without having someone tossing stones at me while I am doing just that.
So to be lumped into the heretic pile is a bit of an disregard to the real situation and a bit careless about how we do address others within a group that may not be unorthodox…
There are many who are Calvinist such as Bob Hyatt and Mark Driscol, which I am not, nor am I a systematic theologist, I am a task/process theologist. I see as Paul the Apostle did that we must find a problem and work through it in a Godly manner.
So to add one more sentence so it can keep within the context of the topic… Both Ken and Dwyana seem to go even farther in that they have recategorized what it means to be a heretic and what it means to be orthodox and I am afraid their standard is way below the standard that has been set over the millennia’s since Christ Rose front the dead.
Blessings,
iggy
Here’s a link to part 4 of Scot McKnight’s review of his book, A Heretics Guide to Eternity.
http://www.jesuscreed.org/?p=1319#comments
It is pretty clear and straightforward, and most of all, it is done with love.
Tim,
I think Scot did a great job on reviewing the book… Spencer is a really nice guy, to experience Grace is a bit hard to explain… it actually opens many more questions.
I think I did a rather lousy job on my reviews… but I will say that I am convinced that Spencer is a brother in Christ and truly loves the Lord… i think he does not see the separation between the atonement and redemption… which is what I call the conversion… or being “called” as scripture referres to it.
Most will agree (outside the Calvinist camp) that Christ died for all people and all sins… many do not recognize that all our sins were place on Jesus at the Cross… which means even the future sins that we see as past… in that all sins are forgiven and atoned for, but not all are redeemed unto salvation. I see many are still in the “conversion” state.
My view tends toward a modified Catholic view as I have been told. The difference is that I see one can be secure while the RCC says that is the sin of presumption…
Blessings,
iggy
the “logic” of the article just reveals paranoia and a fear driven outlook on life.
I’ve lived near Venice Beach. there’s a lot of different kinds of people there. Many say, “one love”. She made it sound like it’s just filled with Satanists. I’ve yet to meet one there.
To be sure. There are a lot of broken people in Venice, but there’s a lot of broken people in your church pew, your pulpit, and publishing attack articles on the internet to distract themselves from themselves or because of spiritual pride.
BTW,
One Love was a song by Bob Marley long before Bono wrote it… as a saying it is/was very much Rasti/Christian in Jamaica mon…
Blessings,
iggy
Ms. Litz – I don’t deny her passion. I simply question her logic.
Quick – look around the room you are sitting in for the color blue – whatever you focus on you will see. It appears her focus is Satanism, so she’s going to see it in every nook and cranny.
I’m not sure what to make of the comment Dwayna made linking Venice beach or the use of ‘One love’ to Satanism. I think she’s commenting more on how the “church” feels lead to use secular music to drive home a point…. light cannot fellowship with darkness. The closing comment in the video is what gave me the most chills. It implied that CRM was what holds the church together in it’s current state… the voice itself seems to come from Brian McLaren (it sounds like him anyways). Let’s all just hold hands like mindless lemmings and jump off a clip into the abyss, shall we?
What I do know however is that all of the collective group-think, compromise, diaprax/praxis nonsense will hurt us far more than it will help us as a global community. I believe that God separated the nations at Babel for a reason. The more the world becomes intertwined and interdependent of one another, it’s only a matter of time before the putrid fruit of their labors will spring forth.
I don’t always agree with the methodology of those from CRN, but I do stand behind the purpose of what they’re trying to accomplish through God’s strength for the body of Christ.
I wholeheartedly agree with Neil’s comment above in how the homosexual movement has taken the symbol of God’s promise not to again flood the Earth ( or we’ve allowed them to hijack the symbol I should say). It’s all too easy to trust what we now see around us as how things ought to be. The enemy can take something so simple in society and pervert it, at least in how we choose to perceive things.