Suddenly prayers on rugs and meditation on scripture are heretical over at AM. Just when you thought their logic was as wacky as it could get, Ken strikes again. This time it is over a video commercial for Mike Yaconelli’s book Contemplative Youth Ministry: Practicing the presence if Jesus. Sounds pretty kosher from the title, right?
Ken prints a section from the forward
you create meaningful silence, covenant communities, and contemplative activities that allow your students recognize the presence of Jesus in their everyday lives. Lovely, teach our young people how to practice “meaningful†meditation and perform other acts of religious bondage in order to try and create an experience with God.
Here is Ken’s interpretation of the whole thing.
I will warn you that this video itself is rather dull as it’s just a voiceover by a few people set against images and pictures of icons, candles, pagan imagery, labyrinths and even someone praying as a Muslim on a prayer rug.
So suddenly praying on a rug makes it pagan because Muslims do it? Are you suggesting, Ken, that Mark Yaconelli is promoting Muslim practices by showing students praying on rugs? I continue.
This is where the Emergent Church, the cult of new post-liberal theology, is taking the mesmerized $evangelical$ community. It is taking the American Christian Church right back into the superstitions and religious bondage of the apostate Church of Rome through so-called “spiritual disciplines†such as “Christian†meditation. You’ll even hear one man say, “Their eyes are open enough to see what’s happening there to know there’s life there and are now starting to say, ‘Maybe this is a model for the rest of the Church.’â€
Ken, since you say that spiritual disciplines such as Christian meditation are apostasy, you might want to read the thoughts of some other writers:
- Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.
- Within your temple, O God, we meditate on your unfailing love
- I meditate on your precepts and consider your ways.
- I lift up my hands to your commands, which I love, and I meditate on your decrees.
- I remember the days of long ago; I meditate on all your works and consider what your hands have done.
So, either the words of Ken are wrong, or the words of God are wrong. I will go with the former.
Lastly, in classic Ken style, he takes this quote from a youth worker and completely twists it. She says
It’s almost a sense of relief when, um, it’s hard to let go of wanting to impart your wisdom on the kids; um, but them it’s a great, ah, relief to–for instance we’re doing a prayer exercise–to watch kids in silence and pray over them going: They’re having their own encounter with God and God is doing God’s work in them, and I’m not having to do it.
Ken’s interpretation:
“I don’t have to teach because people want to have their own encounter with God and ‘experience’ Him their own way.†O sure, it plays great to a narcissistic culture but it also negates one of the gifts Christ gave to His Church–teachers. Since we’re told to grow in the knowledge of Christ (see–Colossian 3:10)–not some existential subjective experience of Him–take a wild guess just which slimy serpent would be behind this idiotic idea.
This youth worker was not saying that they never teach, or negate teaching the word for this practice. She is saying how great it is to see students connecting with God in a meaningful and personal way. It is awesome that she doesn’t have to force knowledge on these students, but they are interested in growing closer with God on their own. And, I do know one slimy serpent that may behind some of the ideas written in this post. But we won’t got there.
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Meditation chews the cud and extracts the real nutriment from the mental food gathered elsewhere. ~ C. H. Spurgeon
But not if one is sitting on a rug!
blessings
iggy
Ken has said on numerous times that he is a former Catholic. I wonder if that doesn’t cause him to be a bit “knee jerk” with anything that “can take us back” to it. My dad was this way, Catholic priest couldn’t be saved, he’d get angry if anyone suggested otherwise. Having left the RC church when I was 4 I really don’t connect on the same level.
Did you read the last “hit piece” on Rob Bell? The guy they link to says that the title “Sex God” is ‘irreverent’, which make me wonder why? Perhaps, God didn’t create sex after all.
It’s just more guilt by association – the neo-fundamentalists are incapable of discerning the neutrality of some methods such as candles, rugs, ect… every time our church (which is far from emerging) uses candles (except advent candles) someone doesn’t like it.
Neil
” the neo-fundamentalists are incapable of discerning the neutrality of some methods” Cool, then that puts us in with Israel, God’s chosen people, He told them that they were incapable of doing the same thing.
“You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you; you shall not walk in their statutes.” (Leviticus 18:3) Sadly, they didn’t listen to Him and neither are you…
Since when are rugs and candles “statutes”?
Ray,
You forget that Ken speaks for God, so he has the only viable interpretation for “statutes”
[removing tongue from cheek]
What it comes down to at a crux is: If the Bible is silent on something, is it permitted and can it honor God?
Ken, as a neo-fundie, generally takes the narrow view that it cannot (which requires little to no discernment). This view sees anything “different” than the traditions/norms as “new” and “wrong”, and therefore, not of God.
Most of the posters here, I would guess, take the wider view that such things might be permitted (which requires a great deal of discernment). This view sees that “different” than traditions/norms does not necessarily mean “new” or “wrong” – but that all things, in their baseline origin, come from God, but can be twisted to evil purposes by Satan through men.
Which view carries with it more risk? Obviously the latter. Which view carries with it the greater value for advancing the Kingdom? Obviously the latter, as well.
I believe this is part of what is alluded to by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents. One can choose to take the narrowest, safest personal path and be condemned for burying his talent in a field. Or, one can choose to take the riskier path and bring honor and reward to the one who gave them the talent in the first place.
Sadly, Ken is trapped in his Roman roots here…
“Cool, then that puts us in with Israel, God’s chosen people, He told them that they were incapable of doing the same thing.”
God did say tell this to the Israelites because they were not spiritually mature enough to discern right from wrong. Wait, so you are basically saying that, like Israel, you are not spiritually mature enough to discern what is pagan and what isn’t? I mean, I agree. But I didn’t expect you to admit it this quickly!
“You shall not do what is done in the land of Egypt where you lived, nor are you to do what is done in the land of Canaan where I am bringing you; you shall not walk in their statutes.†(Leviticus 18:3) Sadly, they didn’t listen to Him and neither are you…
WHAT!?! Ken, your logic is incredibly flawed! God said not to walk in their STATUTES. No one is walking in the statues of a another religion by meditating on the scriptures. Following your logic, we should not pray at all because Muslims pray to Allah as well. we should not read the Old Testament because Jews read it as well. What other biblical principle are you willing to sacrifice on your alter because another faith is doing the same thing?
Ken,
You wrote:
Fortunately, Ken, you are not God and you can’t make that judgement.
For your reading pleasure:
Once again so intent on bashing Ken, the forest becomes invisible.
There are several words in Hebrew translated as “meditate”
They involve thought processes i.e. your mind, which is why Paul tells us to renew our minds, which brings transformation.
Scriptural meditation is comtemplating,i.e. thinking on God, His Word, and His finished work.
There is no “connecting” as we are “connected” in Christ once for all. That is why I can truly meditate. He established the Way. The applying of tm and yoga techniques into our prayer time comes from unregenerate men.
The true intent of contemplative mysticism is to distract people from the “bad, bad, reformers”. Thus it does play right into Roman Catholicism, whether it be traditional romanism or the novus ordo. It is all heading that way.
You guys remind of the sedvacantist catholics who are constantly howling at my blog.
They ideologically unite with the Muslims and the Iranian leadership in their hatred of the Jews even though they hate Islam also, (remember the crusades?)
You unite with anything that Ken critiques. Same spirit, different circumstances.
The REVEALED mystery of God is the manifesting of the spiritual into the natural. Nothing spooky or mystical there.
As for spiritual disciplines, try reading the Bible in its’ own context for a change.
Chris P,
You wrote (after a bunch of hyperbole that said nothing):
Actually, no – there are a number of topic where we agree with Ken that we’ve not commented (like on Mormonism).
However, as I read these few true moments of discernment from Ken, I’m reminded that just because a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then doesn’t mean that blindness is the key to the survival of the squirrel population…
You answer like the Catholics. Ignore the content of my comment by labeling it hyperbole.What intellect!
I say too much; which is the real issue with you.
I say too much…
For once, I agree with Chris P.
Lev.18:3 as in the NIV rendering: “Do not follow their practices.” The Hebrew is chuqqah, it carries the meaning of “customs, manners”. Uh-oh, looks like ol’ Ken did know what he was talking about.
Guys, you really make this too easy. I make no judgement, I am simply repeating the judgement God made. I should tell you that you sound more like unbeliving skeptics every day.
“If the Bible is silent on something, is it permitted and can it honor God?” Um, as I just showed you it’s not silent. The rest of your comment reveals your proud heart, as does Nathan’s who made this utterly ridiculous statement:
“God did say tell this to the Israelites because they were not spiritually mature enough to discern right from wrong.”
So this is what you are learning from human potential advocate Erwin McManus. That statement is not only just plain stupid, it borders on blasphemy to speak of the apple of God’s eye.
Ken,
To quote Ronald Reagan, “there you go again.” That verse in Leviticus is referring to a pretty specific set of circumstances, mainly telling the Israelites to not live like the Egyptians. If you read further down, you’ll a whole list of sexual practices and then about child sacrifice. To say that is referring to a type of prayer as you have said is more than a stretch.
“That statement is not only just plain stupid, it borders on blasphemy to speak of the apple of God’s eye.”
If you are suggesting that the “apple of God’s eye” never screwed up, were forced into captivity or disobeyed God, you apparently haven’t read a good portion of the Old testament. I would call creating a golden calf out of their own jewelry spiritually immature.
You also fail to answer my questions (once again). Should we stop praying because the Muslims do? Should we stop reading the Old Testament because the Jews do? After all, you suggested we cut out Christian meditation because Hindus meditate.
And the bible is silent on the subject. Please, oh please tell me where it says not to meditate on the word of God. i would love to see you tackle that one! Chris P. did a pretty lousy job at it, maybe the ken-god would have a better shot.
“Scriptural meditation is comtemplating ,i.e. thinking on God, His Word, and His finished work.”
What! Chris P, admits that we can be contemplative! Amen brother. By your definition, could we thing on God, His Word and His finished work while doing a few healthy stretches? Hey… we may have something jivin here.
Ken,
You give me this:
in response to my saying certain methods are neutral (candles, rugs, etc.).
Just to be clear, are you saying God commands we not use candles and rugs? Maybe you could be a bit more specific for me.
Thanks,
Neil
“Cool, then that puts us in with Israel, God’s chosen people, He told them that they were incapable of doing the same thing.â€
All who are elect in Christ are God’s chosen people… this is not a term particular to the Jews.
Neil
Neil,
“Maybe you could be a bit more specific for me.” Nah, I’m good. I was specific enough.
“All who are elect in Christ are God’s chosen people.” Uh-oh, paraphrasing Nathan above: What! Neil, admits the doctrine of God’s sovereign election! Amen brother. Hey… we may have something jivin here.
Chris P,
Sorry, what you wrote was more of a straw man argument than hyperbole.
Most of what I’ve seen from the Christian Yoga class that meets at our church (and others) is along the lines of an exercise program, not a way to “enhance your prayer life”.
Really? Perhaps you can show me from where you divined the “real intent”. Straw man. Pure and simple
This is the hyperbole and ad homenim swill we usually get from you (and what I was primarily referring to).
Ken,
Thanks for the response, though I’m not sure why you are surprised I “admit” sovereign election?
I’m sorry you have chosen not to expound on, or clarify your position… you appear to be saying candles and rugs are wrong, since you quoted the Leviticus passage in response to these examples…
Neil
““All who are elect in Christ are God’s chosen people.†Uh-oh, paraphrasing Nathan above: What! Neil, admits the doctrine of God’s sovereign election! Amen brother. Hey… we may have something jivin here.”
Once again, the non-Calvinist, “why I am a Calvinist” Ken Silva proves that he is a Calvinist, despite his anti-Calvinist statements.
Also, to my knowledge, Neil has never stated his position on free will / Calvinism. Here’s the thing Ken… there are people who we associate with here that have differing theologies on free will! And, we are ok with that **gasp!** You should try it sometime.