Watchdawggie caught doing yogaThere has been a bit of discussion on the topic of Christian Yoga the past couple of days here on CRN.info, and now Ken has decided to post a “source” on Slice 2.0 to back his contention. Granted, his article does nothing more than build some straw men to burn down (which is what we’ve come to expect, anyway).

You can tell from the start of the article that almost no intellectual heavy lifting was done in researching this (kind of like with Johnnie Mac’s “Truth War”), though with less of the pomposity and polemic we’ve come to expect from Ken:

Why is there such a thing as Christian Yoga? It certainly has no scriptural or biblical basis in support of it.

Why is there such a thing as a Christian Website?  There certainly is no scriptural or biblical basis in support of it? In fact, 20% of the websites on the web are pornography sites.  [For the sarcasm/irony impaired, this is not by actual belief.] The logic is similar, and when you boild it down, what seemt to be most of the crux between the ‘externals’ focus of CRN/Slice 2.0 and the ‘internal’ (i.e. what is in the heart) focus here at CRN.info comes down to how we react where the Bible is silent.

The non-denominational church movement I belong to (which comes from the Restoration movement in the early 1800’s) has a particular saying regarding this prediciment:

Where the Bible speaks, we speak. Where the Bible is silent, we remain silent.

Additionally, where the Bible does speak (but possible differences in interpretation may create friction), we have used a similar mnemonic sometimes credited to St. Augestine:

In essentials, unity. In non-essentials, liberty.  In all things, love.

So, where the rub tends to come is “Where the Bible is silent, are things permitted or forbidden?” and “What is essential vs. non-essential?” In the case of Christian Yoga, what it really comes down to is this: Is this Bible silent on this topic, and if so, should Christian Yoga be allowed within the church?

Let’s be clear with what “Christian Yoga” actually is and isn’t, though, first. Technically, what is referred to as “Christian Yoga” should really be called “Low-Impact Stretching and Stress Relief for Christians” (LISSRC)  and not “Yoga” because, aside from the stretches and positions, it does not incorporate Hindu mantras or teachings. However, by using “Christian” as the modifier for “Yoga”, that implies the non-incorporation of Hinduism.

[NOTE: Can you see why many prefer "Christ-Follower" to "Christian", since the former can't be used as an adjective?]

First, is the Bible silent on the topic of LISSRC? I can’t find anything that could be tied directly to such a thing, though yesterday Amy suggested that this could be similar to worshipping God in the high places in the OT. However, this is nowhere near such a parallel, because God had commanded that he could only be worshipped in the Temple, which then set the stage for Pentecost 33 A.D., and the elimination of the sacrificial system with the destruction of the Temple, one generation later, in 70 A.D. Neither Ken nor his “expert” offer any scriptural support for their position from prohibition, outside of GBA origins.

Secondly, should this be allowed within the church? I believe that since the Bible is silent on the issue, it should be up to each local church body to decide if they will allow this, but not to condemn other church bodies that do so. However, this is where the rub between neo-fundamentalism (as demonstrated by Slice 2.0) and evangelical/emerging Christianity occurs.

In general, the neo-fundamentalist crowd – which is much more concerned with externals – tends to answer the question of “what do we do where the Bible is silent, and can such things that act where the Bible is silent give honor to God?” with an answer of prohibition based on tradition. The evangelical/emerging view tends to answer the same question with an answer of permission. Neither view, at an extreme, is correct. However, in the neo-fundamental view, there is little need for discernment, because the overriding answer tends to be “no”. In the e/e view, thuogh, there is great need for discernment, because the overriding answer tends to be “yes”.

Which view holds more risk? The evangelical/emerging view.

Which view holds more opportunity for service to God? The evangelical/emerging view.

Which view will be more apt to make mistakes along the way? The evangelical/emerging view.

Which view is more apt to actually BE (rather than just talk about being) salt and light to a dying world? The evangelical/emerging view.

The key, though, is discernment.

For instance, I have a rather large issue with the emergent tendency to use coarse language on a regular basis (though I disagree that “suck” is always coarse language, per our earlier conversation…). I think there’s a great deal of machinations and intellectual dishonesty in trying to justify it as being something on which the Bible is silent.

However, with Christian “Yoga” (LISSRC), I would find no more wrong with this than (as was pointed out in the thread discussion) Christians celebrating Christmas (pagan origin) or Easter (pagan origin), having a Christmas tree (pagan origin), participating in the Olympic games (pantheistic pagan origin), running the marathon (pagan origin), and on and on.

What it comes down to when viewing these two worldviews and their corresponding response to the question of dealing with Biblical silence on an issue is this:

I believe this is part of what is alluded to by Jesus in the Parable of the Talents. One can choose to take the narrowest, safest path and be condemned for burying his talent in a field. Or, one can choose to take the riskier path and bring more honor and reward to the one who gave them the talent in the first place.

Jesus didn’t call us to play it safe – he called us to serve: heart, soul, mind and strength.

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450 Comments(+Add)

1   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 25th, 2007 at 1:50 pm

Man, this website really has literally gone to the dogs.

[NOTE: Can you see why many prefer “Christ-Follower” to “Christian”, since the former can’t be used as an adjective?]

Huh?! Try, “Christ-Follower” Yoga. Or Yoga of “Christ-Followers”. Grasping for straws again. This happens when one is so proud of their own intellect they ignore the teachings of someone like Brian Flynn who was involved with such practices.

Another example here in the above screed of: Don’t confuse me with the facts, I’ve already made up my mind.

2   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 25th, 2007 at 1:56 pm

Ken,

You wrote:

Another example here in the above screed of: Don’t confuse me with the facts, I’ve already made up my mind.

I’ve yet to see any “facts” come from you on this topic, so how could I be confused with something that doesn’t exist?

Just because Flynn was involved with New Age stuff (and I’m glad he got out of it), doesn’t make everything he declares “New Age” so. In the same way that a recovering alcoholic “sees” addictive behaviors in EVERYone else (because of their own dysfunctional history) does not make a recovered alcoholic an expert on all of its forms and cures.

3   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 25th, 2007 at 2:01 pm

Ken,

Also, thank you for proving my point with “Christ-Follower”.

“Follower” is a noun, and to try to make it into an adjective is very clunky and inelegant – as you have now demonstrated.

4   Chris P.    http://jeremiahsquestion.blogspot.com
April 25th, 2007 at 2:04 pm

“Why is there such a thing as Christian Yoga? It certainly has no scriptural or biblical basis in support of it.

Why is there such a thing as a Christian Website?”

They are not the same thing, and no the logic isn’t similar.

One is using the available technology to spread Truth.

The other is syncretism.
The intyernet is neautral and can be used for good or evil.
Yoga is a religious practice used in the worship of gods other than Yahweh.

Your intellectual “heavy lifting” consists of painting styrofoam balls black, and writing 25lbs lbs on them;hence the term dumbells.

5   Chris P.    http://jeremiahsquestion.blogspot.com
April 25th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

Btw
I don’t celebrate Christmas, Easter or whatever.

6   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 25th, 2007 at 2:09 pm

What’s a “screed?”

7   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 25th, 2007 at 2:10 pm

“The intyernet is neautral and can be used for good or evil.”

I think the most evil thing is that Internet Explorer doesn’t have a spell checker built in.

8   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 25th, 2007 at 2:12 pm

That’s why I’m a safari guy. I hate IE. It rewrites too much of your stuff.

9   Matt    
April 25th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

Joe – I regret to inform you that you are a Satanist. Scroll down on the below article to get the latest info on Apple Computer. I also included the “evil” Darwin logo.

http://objectiveministries.org/creation/propaganda.html

10   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 25th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

hahahah, that pic! But I don’t have an IMAC! I’m a G4 guy. Maybe I ‘m not being tricked then? That might explain why I still believe in Creation. That is priceless.
….Could this be why Ken called me apostate?

11   Neil    
April 25th, 2007 at 2:49 pm

I think the most evil thing is that Internet Explorer doesn’t have a spell checker built in.

http://www.iespell.com/

12   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 25th, 2007 at 2:57 pm

Aha!

Well, I use FireFox, so I’m set already.

Now is there a logic-checker for any web browsers?

13   phil    
April 25th, 2007 at 2:58 pm

Matt,
Where did you find that site? That is sad and hilarious at the same time. Perhaps my favorite quote from that site it this: “Pokemon’s pro-Darwinism propaganda is inescapable”.

I just bust out laughing reading it!

14   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 25th, 2007 at 2:59 pm

No NO no….Addendum #5 in the footnotes is the funniest. Read it! He apologizes for accusing some girl of being on drugs.

15   phil    
April 25th, 2007 at 3:04 pm

Joe,
I stand corrected. I must have been caught temporarily in a “reality distortion field”. Darn you to Heck, Steve Jobs!

16   Matt    
April 25th, 2007 at 3:32 pm

Objective Ministries is a parody site, according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBJECTIVE:_Ministries

17   phil    
April 25th, 2007 at 3:41 pm

Wow, that’s a very well-done parody site then. I’ll admit I was fooled.

18   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 25th, 2007 at 3:46 pm

This is not to be sarcastic, but if I had never met the original Slice/CRN2.0 I would have never believed it.

19   phil    
April 25th, 2007 at 3:54 pm

Honestly, I’ve met too many Christians who believe in crazy conspiracy theories and the like, that I just assumed that site was for real. Maybe it’s just the Pentecostal/Fundamentalist background I grew up in, but I’ve seen some people who believe some messed up stuff in my life.

20   Matt    
April 25th, 2007 at 3:54 pm

The weird thing is that they link to real sites, like http://freehovind.com. It’s for a Creation Scientist who was imprisoned for tax evation. Nice!

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007704200332

21   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 25th, 2007 at 4:18 pm

“One is using the available technology to spread Truth.
The other is syncretism.
The intyernet is neautral and can be used for good or evil.
Yoga is a religious practice used in the worship of gods other than Yahweh.”

Chris P.
You don’t get it. Are you actually suggesting that when people do low impact stretches while praying to Yahweh, they are worshiping other Gods? So if I pray to YHWH standing up, but suddenly raise one foot to my knee, I am worshiping Hindu gods? That makes absolutely NO sense and is actually laughable.

Ken,
you continue to dodge the hard issues over and over and over again. But, you continue to strengthen our arguments. In both “Christ-Follower Yoga” and “Yoga of Christ-Followers”, the “Christ-follower” remains a noun, referring to a person, not the yoga itself. In “Christian Yoga”, the Christian is referring to the yoga (Christian is an adjective), not a person. To make the “Christian” in Christian Yoga a noun, you would have to say Christian’s yoga or yoga for Christians.

Now we have been through two English lessons together… one on question marks, and one on the difference between nouns and adjectives. Pretty soon you will be able to get all those quotes from them evil emergent pastors right!

22   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 25th, 2007 at 4:31 pm

Amazing; are you guys seriously this obtuse, “In both ‘Christ-Follower Yoga’ and ‘Yoga of Christ-Followers’, the ‘Christ-follower’ remains a noun, referring to a person, not the yoga itself.”

“Christian Yoga” is a title for an activity that “Christians” think they have sanctified, just as the ancient Church once “sanctified” pagan holidays, etc. So call it “Christ-Follower Yoga” or “Yoga For Christ-Followers” it’s still adopting something of pagan origin and try to use it while followers of Jesus.

Jesus never did Yoga but He probably did “stretch” His muscles. The point is: Doing exercise is one thing, borrowing postures used in pagan worship as that exercise is to violate the spiritual principle of being set apart e.g. underlying Lev. 18:3.

23   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 25th, 2007 at 4:49 pm

Ken,

Leviticus 18:3 points to nothing of the sort, and your exegesis (as usual) falls fall short of any standard one would expect from a “Pastor”. The section of Leviticus you are prooftexting deals quite specifically with sexual sins and practices, which is nowhere near what is being discussed here…

24   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 25th, 2007 at 5:20 pm

Ken

For the record, “Christian Yoga” doesn’t mean yoga for Christians. The “Christian” is informing the reader that the “yoga” is not Hindu, but follows the practices of the Christian faith. But, this is a small issue…

As a pastor, you should know that body positions cannot be pagan. The worship that takes place during those positions can be pagan, if worshiping a false god. However, I will say it again. I don’t see how standing an praying is ok, but when you lift your foot to your knee, it suddenly becomes pagan.

Funny enough, the finishing poses in Yoga are laying prostrate on the ground. Many Christians lay prostrate before God. I guess that will have to go too.

25   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 25th, 2007 at 5:51 pm

“The section of Leviticus you are prooftexting deals quite specifically with sexual sins and practices, which is nowhere near what is being discussed here…”

This is why you are letter of the Law. Yes, this is the historic context, which anyone with any amount of critical thinking skills can see. But your boy Nathan brought up the idea of being spiritually mature before; are you really not mature enough spiritually that you don’t know the spiritual meaning here as well, God does not want his people following pagan practices period.

In this passage God the Holy Spirit uses sexual sins as the particular, but to His people it should be obvious that if He didn’t want them adopting those pagan practices, He would not want us to adopt any pagan practices at all. This isn’t the only place in Scripture where Israel is warned about leaven entering the lump.

But this is why dialogue is almost impossible with you guys because you just cannot seem to hear spiritually for all your bluster to the contrary.

26   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 25th, 2007 at 6:03 pm

I don’t know where you stand on tattoos, but so often people use this type of scripture to condemn them. It wasn’t that God was saying no tattoos… he was saying do not tattoo yourself as a worship of the dead (as pagans do). He wasn’t saying don’t have sex, he was saying don’t have sex in grotesque manners (as pagans do).

We could say God isn’t saying not to do body stretches while praying, he is is saying not to worship hindu gods while doing body stretches.

“But this is why dialogue is almost impossible with you guys because you just cannot seem to hear spiritually for all your bluster to the contrary.”

We should have expected a line like this from you. This basically says, if you don’t agree with me then you are spiritually blind (because you are the only one in the world apparently that can hear from God correctly.)

27   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 25th, 2007 at 6:04 pm

So, Ken… part of the “pagan” practices was to eat unclean animals… in which God tells Peter to take and eat…

Symbolically this means that the Gentiles are not “clean” by God…

So, Ken, why do you call unclean which God has made clean?

Meaning… so you won’t misinterpret what I am saying … everything is permissible, not everything is beneficial…. how is a stretching and breathing exercise now “unclean” to you?

It seems you call for separation when God calls for us to reconcile… we are not to join in in idol worship, but is it evil to say, cut your beard in the fashion of the Egyptians still? Is it evil to wear two types of material such as cotton and wool mixed?

It seems you pick and choose your scripture to fit your doctrine instead of letting the Bible teach you from itself… and that by the Holy Spirit… I challenge you to take off your doctrinal glasses and read and study… instead of assuming you just know it already.

Blessings,
iggy

28   Neil    
April 25th, 2007 at 6:15 pm

Ken,

Are certain postures pagan ontologically, or because pagans use them? Just trying to understand your position (no pun intended).

Neil

29   Neil    
April 25th, 2007 at 6:19 pm

RE: “I don’t know where you stand on tattoos…”

Great, as if this wasn’t controversial enough… whenever someone uses the verse from Leviticus to argue against tattoos (carte blanche), I point out the verse in the same pericope that prohibits clothing of blended material – most don’t look at labels to make sure they are not wearing a cotton/polyester blend.

Neil

30   robbymac    http://www.robbymac.org
April 25th, 2007 at 6:32 pm

The Bible commands us to pray with our hands raised. So do other “world religions”, not to mention many attendees of secular rock concerts.

So, obviously, we should immediately disobey Scripture. Wouldn’t want to inadvertantly worship the wrong deity by using the wrong (or tainted) body posture.

31   robbymac    http://www.robbymac.org
April 25th, 2007 at 6:33 pm

That previous comment was intended to be ironic. :)

32   chris o    
April 25th, 2007 at 6:58 pm

Reading this thread has become akin to gawking at a car wreck. Joe pondered why he wrote here, I sometimes ponder why I read. That said, I still want to see Ken answer the Easter/Christian origins question. Both holidays have pagan origins. Christians adopted them and made them Christian holidays. This nearly parallels this yoga issue, but I bet every year Ken and his Bible study get together, drink egg nog (non-alcoholic of couse, as alcohol is also intrinsically evil) and sing Silent Night.

33   another nathan    http://www.perlaetus.blogspot.com
April 25th, 2007 at 7:31 pm

Since we’re on the topic of prohibitions…

I’m don’t doubt that the world is a broken place, but when I hear the complaints about how horrible everything is, how everything is evil and pagan, I just think back to the Levitical prohibitions and remember that “the people of God” had to actually be told not to mess with animals or sleep with their sisters.

Every time has its problems, its sin, etc., but this constant doom and gloom really can swing so far to the other extreme that we blaspheme the scope of the beauty of creation.

The world is broken and beautiful. We need to hold things in tension and not just go to either extreme to keep things easy.
That’s a kind of intellectual and spiritual laziness that does not serve anyone.

34   Matt    
April 25th, 2007 at 10:41 pm

So the below means that Silva doesn’t celebrate Christmas??? Neither does Chris P?

““Christian Yoga” is a title for an activity that “Christians” think they have sanctified, just as the ancient Church once “sanctified” pagan holidays, etc. So call it “Christ-Follower Yoga” or “Yoga For Christ-Followers” it’s still adopting something of pagan origin and try to use it while followers of Jesus.”

35   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 25th, 2007 at 11:07 pm

“I bet every year Ken and his Bible study get together, drink egg nog (non-alcoholic of couse, as alcohol is also intrinsically evil) and sing Silent Night.”

You lose.

36   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 25th, 2007 at 11:10 pm

Nathan,

“you are the only one in the world apparently that can hear from God correctly.”

You know, after dialoguing with you gentlemen here and reading your rants, I’d have to say the same thing to you.

37   Neil    
April 25th, 2007 at 11:33 pm

Ken,

Are certain postures pagan ontologically, or because pagans use them? Just trying to understand your position (no pun intended).

Neil

38   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 25th, 2007 at 11:44 pm

Ken,

“Letter of the Law?” – It seems you want to supply your own context and meaning completely apart from anything even remotely suggested from a contextual reading of the scripture – which is exactly what you criticize “emergents” of doing.

So, can we take from your comment above that you don’t celebrate Christmas or Easter or have any involvement with sports with pagan origins (Olympic events, LaCrosse, etc.)? Or are you two-faced in interpreting scripture to fit your mores and prejudices?

39   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
April 26th, 2007 at 6:42 am

Ken, are you saying that you don’t celebrate Christmas in December? Are you further saying that you don’t celebrate Easter?

40   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 26th, 2007 at 7:24 am

I feel like Ken’s argument is backwards (which gets to the heart of Neil’s twice-ignored question). That is, because “pagans” twisted something to fulfill their spiritual cravings, something which God created, we are not able to take back God’s creation and claim it as our own.

Stretching in any position – while not explicitly stated in the Bible – is a function of our natural creation, not an invention of some other world religion.

In addition to the Christmas and Easter celebration, I must ask if you Ken engage in sexual activity? It too is used as worship in Wicca and was used specifically in the Bible to worship certain gods. Surely you don’t prohibit yourself and/or others from sex?

Ken, this is merely my interpretation of your writings, so I encourage you to answer Neil’s twice-ignored question. (I probably shouldn’t have written those first six words, as Ken will copy and past those and respond only to that statement. Now that I’ve predicted Ken will do such, will he still?)

41   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 8:54 am

I don’t know, it appears that Ken sounds like he is a member of a cult. Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t celebrate Christmas either.

42   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 9:44 am

Getting Silva to explain to us his beliefs on Christmas is like trying to get MacLaren to explain his views on homosexuality.

43   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 26th, 2007 at 9:48 am

I noticed that Ken has used the word “fortunately” in more than 100 articles on AM. This word is derived as a blessing to Fortuna, the Roman goddess of good luck.

Additionally, I suspect that Ken uses the English names for days of the week:

Sunday: The name “Sunday” (Day of the Sun) apparently originated in pre-Christian Egyptian culture. In Ptolemaic Egyptian astrology, the seven planets, Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, the Sun, Venus, Mercury, and the Moon, had an hour of the day assigned to each, and the planet which was “regent” during the first hour of any day of the week gave its name to that day.

Monday: It gets its name from the Moon, which in turn gets its name from Mani (Old English Mona), the Germanic Moon god.

Tuesday: The name comes from Middle English Twisday, from Old English Tiwes dæg, named after the Nordic god Tyr, who was the equivalent of the Roman war god Mars.

Wednesday: The name comes from the Middle English Wednes dei, which is from Old English Wodnes dæg, meaning the day of the Germanic god Woden (Wodan) who was a god of the Anglo-Saxons in England until about the 7th century. Wodnes dæg is like the Old Norse Oðinsdagr (”Odin’s day”), which is an early translation of the Latin dies Mercurii (”Mercury’s day”). Although Mercury (the messenger of the gods) and Woden (the king of the Germanic gods) are not equivalent in most regards, both gods guided the souls of the dead to the underworld.

Thursday: The contemporary name comes from the Old English Þunresdæg, meaning “Day of Thunor”, this being a rough Germanic equivalent to the Latin Iovis Dies, “Jupiter’s Day”.

Friday: The name Friday comes from the Old English frigedæg, meaning the day of Frige the Anglo-Saxon form of Frigg, the Germanic goddess of beauty.

Saturday: It retains its Roman origin in English which is of the Roman god of agriculture Saturn. It has been called dies Saturni (”Saturn’s Day”), through which form it entered into Old English as Sæternesdæg and gradually evolved into the word “Saturday”.

Let’s also hope, for Ken’s sake, that he doesn’t use the Julian calendar, which derived from the pagan worship of Caesars as gods (which is specifically addressed by John and Paul…)

________________

Ken, In all seriousness, it is your sorry exegesis of the Levitical passage (which relates directly to sexual practices and tangentially to religio-fertility practices) that has opened up this slippery slope – which is what happens when you try to make God say things he hasn’t said.

Jesus spoke directly about this, which you might want to consider:

Do not judge, or you too will be judged. For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. (Matt 7:1-5)

He also spoke to this practice systematically, as well:

Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. (Luke 11:46)

So Ken – what is the answer to Neil’s question? What body positions are ontologically evil and pagan?

44   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 11:20 am

Chris,
Since you quoted me without giving the rest of the conversation, I’ll replay some of it here.

You said here, ” Amy suggested that this could be similar to worshipping God in the high places in the OT . . . ”

Previously I replied to that idea,
“No comparison? Yoga is used to “worship” other gods.
The “high places” were used by Canaanites to worship other gods. The high places were to be destroyed and worship in the “high places” was forbidden. See I Kings 3, Nu 33:52, Dt 7:5, Deut 12:3 -7. ” (There are even better passages that show this relationship.)

Nathan then pointed out: (Comment from nathan
Time: April 24, 2007, 6:03 pm)

“Amy,

yoga is not / was never used to worship other gods.”

You then said, “As Nathan pointed out, Yoga was not a form of “worship”,”

Ken Silva then gave this reference,
“The word “YOGA” (and other associated words) is Sanskrit. Sanskrit is the prayer language of Hinduism and is to Hinduism what Latin is to Christianity, or Hebrew to Judaism or Arabic to the religion of Islam.

* The word “YOGA” translates into “Spiritual Union” which is the identical meaning of the word “RELIGION.” (Therefore it is an “obvious” fallacy that “yoga” is not “religion.”)

http://www.classicalyoga.org/Page31.html

The article cited by Flynn gives even more evidence that the goal of yoga is “spiritual union with the divine.” Not worship?

Anyway, the way I see it, you’re not willing to look at the nature of the high places that were to be destroyed, not used as places of worship. Also, you’re ready to take Nathan as an unquestionable source, but not willing to consider the true nature of yoga.

In this case, perhaps you would do better to listen to Rob Bell that Nathan, because Bell seems to think that Yoga has something to do with worship: From Rob Bell’s breathing sermon, “And the Yoga Masters say this is how it is when you follow Jesus and surrender to God. Is it’s your breath being consistent. It’s your connection with God regardless of the pose you find yourself in. That’s integrating the divine into the daily.” (This is copied from AM)

Also, I admit, there are no scriptures that say, “Thou shalt not practice yoga” but there are certainly many that could apply to the situation. I don’t think you’re willing to consider such a thing because you will automatically consider that “legalism.” Does God have to spell everything out for us? Doesn’t he expect us to know Him, to know His principles, and to make decisions accordingly? I am reminded of another conversation I had with you on abortion. You started telling me that not all Christians think that abortion is wrong. You then started citing specific verses that some use to say that abortion is wrong, not as a way of demonstrating that those “Christians who don’t think abortion is wrong” were wrong, but as a way of showing that there really isn’t outright proof that it is wrong. You seem to think that God has to spell everything out for us for us to know that something is wrong, or questionable. Could it be that you’re just missing the bigger picture? In the case of abortion, abortion is murder. Period.

In the case of deciding on right and wrong, we have principles in the Bible, and the Holy Spirit. Does that mean that everyone has to agree on everything that is right or wrong? It doesn’t happen, does it? But what is happening is that Christians who believe that things are to be avoided and that Christian leaders, especially pastors, shouldn’t promote them, are called “legalistic,” instead of the leaders considering that they need to strongly consider how the Bible applies to many “questionable” things. So the “free” Christians, who want to talk about how “gray” things are, can actually end up being more dogmatic about what is good and what is bad. Bad = anybody questioning anything which is not specifically stated in scripture; Good = people who have become “free” and are out feeding the hungry and taking care of AIDS patients.

Some questions I would ask regarding Christians participating in yoga:

1)Have the teachers who are teaching “Christian” yoga come to grips with the significance of the pagan nature of yoga, where many of them probably learned yoga in the first place?

2) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while practicing yoga? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she entered into the trance state through yoga.

3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as various types of healing?

4) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” meditation practices to enter into a trance state, to meet “Jesus?”

5) How on earth do scriptural principles about avoiding pagan practices apply in this day and age? We’re not going to have a written list of “Divination =A; Magic= B; Pagan worship =C. Yet according to your thinking, if we start naming things, we’re being legalistic.

6)What if a pastor who promotes yoga leads another believer into a place where he is unintentionally worshipping the undivine divine. Does the passage in Luke warning about leading people into sin (in this case “these little ones”)apply?

We could spend all day talking about, “this is only a body position,” etc, etc. Or we could consider the possible implications of messing with something that is pagan. God never said “Adapt pagan ways.” Never.

45   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 11:27 am

Chris,
“However, in the neo-fundamental view, there is little need for discernment, because the overriding answer tends to be ”no”.”

You asume that neo-fundamentalists come to their conclusions without discernment because their overriding answer tends to be “no.” They could conclude that you arrive at your answers with no discernment because your answer tends to be “yes.”

It would be interesting to know whether most Christians are juggling with the issue of “Christian” yoga versus no yoga, or “yoga” versus no yoga. How many Christians actually think that participating in a regular yoga class is harmful?

46   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 11:42 am

I think someone should buy Amy a gift certificate for a Christian yoga class just to show her that it’s just stretching.

47   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 26th, 2007 at 11:49 am

*thumbs up*

Very well-stated Amy. :-)

48   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 11:57 am

1)Have the runners who are teaching “Christian” marathon running come to grips with the significance of the pagan nature of marathons, where many of them probably learned marathon running in the first place?

2) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while running the marathon? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she ran the marathon.

3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as wrestling?

4) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” jogging practices to enter into a trance state, to meet “Jesus?”

5) How on earth do scriptural principles about avoiding pagan practices apply in this day and age? We’re not going to have a written list of “Divination =A; Magic= B; Pagan worship =C; Olympic Sports = D. Yet according to your thinking, if we start naming things, we’re being legalistic.

6)What if a pastor who promotes marathon running leads another believer into a place where he is unintentionally worshipping the undivine divine. Does the passage in Luke warning about leading people into sin (in this case “these little ones”)apply?

49   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

And just in case anyone thinks the above is sarcastic at all, Pheidippides, the original marathon runner, met Pan (a god), while running. Talk about a transcendental experience.

50   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 26th, 2007 at 12:03 pm

Amy,

I don’t have much time today to reply, but a few things:

1) I couldn’t really care less about the entymology for the word “yoga” any more than Ken apparently cares about the entymology of the word “fortunately”.

2) To use a similar illustration as Flynn, just because Baptism is a Christian sacrament, doesn’t mean that when a Hindu goes swimming that he’s performing a Christian rite (or even doing anything connected with it).

3) Do you celebrate Christmas? Easter? Do you support olympic events? What body positions are ontologically evil?

4) The high place example is a complete non-starter. Not sure why you keep harping on it.

5) You said:

Or we could consider the possible implications of messing with something that is pagan. God never said “Adapt pagan ways.” Never.

Guess we’d better come up with new names for the days of the week, months of the year and a different day for Christmas (probably somewhere between September the 15th and 29th day of the 9th month). Did you ever consider that Hinduism borrowed something from God (exercise and meditation) and used it for evil, and that Christian usage of the same thing (exercise and meditation) – both of which come from God – can be used for good?

6) I believe that I can find indirect scriptural support for my position that abortion is murder. However, because it is indirect scriptural support – the same which can be used to take a pacifist view of war – can I condemn another Christian for seeing state-sponsored bloodshed as being more of a concern than abortion? I can disagree with them, certainly, but I cannot disfellowship them.

For the next few, I have to go with the answers from a few folks I know who practice Christian Yoga (so a small sampling).

7) Q: Have the teachers who are teaching “Christian” yoga come to grips with the significance of the pagan nature of yoga, where many of them probably learned yoga in the first place?

A1: None of them learned it in a Hindu setting (though one attended a Yoga class at a YWCA that as taught by a Christian (w/o Hindu teaching/meditation).

A2: This is the same silly logic Ingrid uses to denounce the use of drums in church. It’s a non-starter. The activity, itself, is not pagan – the philosophy, beliefs and scriptures which accompany the activity determine whether it is pagan or not. This is in the same way that instruments do not determine whether music is “Christian” or “pagan”, but the words do.

8) Q: What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while practicing yoga? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she entered into the trance state through yoga.

A: What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while driving their car to work? I read a couple of weeks ago how a man was convicted by Jesus while driving down the road, and he had to pull over to the side of the road, where he broke down in prayer and repentence.

I don’t think Christians should practice Yoga in a secular setting, don’t get me wrong, but I don’t see what this has to do with the price of tea in China. Jesus met Paul on the road to Damascus and Matthew collecting taxes. It’s up to Him where he meets us…

10) Q: What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as various types of healing?

A: Not sure what you’re referring to here, but I think Benny Hinn’s full of it, and that faith healing (in general) is a huckster’s game. I believe that the medicine and doctors we have today have been provided by God through gradual scientific revelation, and I tend to be cessationalist (with some exceptions) with healing being one of those areas…

11) Q: What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” meditation practices to enter into a trance state, to meet “Jesus?”

A: I can come up with a number of scriptures for this one, primarily going back to prohibitions against divination.

12) Q: How on earth do scriptural principles about avoiding pagan practices apply in this day and age? We’re not going to have a written list of “Divination =A; Magic= B; Pagan worship =C”. Yet according to your thinking, if we start naming things, we’re being legalistic.

A: Legalism is making our opinions equate to God’s opinions. Where the scripture is clear, we need to be clear. Where the scripture is not clear, we need to allow room for charity. If you believe that you would be sinning to be in a Christian yoga class, then by all means, don’t do it! However, just because you are ‘weak’ in your faith, don’t expect that every other Christian in the world will cowtow to your self-imposed weakness. Do we need to be careful? By all means. Blanket condemnation in such gray areas, though, goes beyond care and into legalism.

Example: I grew up with a “no ‘R’ movie” rule in my household, and, as a result, had very little discernment in what I watched outside of that one rule.

In my household now, we have no ‘hard and fast’ rule like that, but we take each new movie that comes out that one of our kids wants to see as a chance to discuss what would be acceptable and what would not be acceptable. As a result, my kids have much more discerning ability with movies than I ever did at their age.

Gotta go here, but I think this covers a lot of your quesions…

51   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 26th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

In response to Amy’s questions:

1)Have the teachers who are teaching “Christian” yoga come to grips with the significance of the pagan nature of yoga, where many of them probably learned yoga in the first place?

Have you ever been to a yoga class? 0% of the classes I’ve been to (with my wife of course) ever mentioned the spiritual implications of the stretch that was trying to kill me at that moment. The Christian yoga instructor I know personally, who is only one person, took yoga instruction lessons from a local health club, not a local Hindi temple. Not once – and I asked her – did they discuss the spiritual implications during her certification.

2) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while practicing yoga? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she entered into the trance state through yoga.

Is this a bad thing?

3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as various types of healing?

Does the healing work? If so, nothing. If not, then they are willingly and knowingly deceiving people, which, I posit, is bad.

Yoga works from a purely physical standpoint. It makes you feel better physically and improves your flexibility. Why shouldn’t we teach people to do this?

4) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” meditation practices to enter into a trance state, to meet “Jesus?”

I don’t believe I can answer this question for you as we disagree about the nature of meditation. I don’t automatically assume it’s wrong simply because Buddhists and Catholics do it, and therefore see no problem implementing meditation-type practices into my disciplines.

As for trances, I’ve never experienced one, nor do I personally know anyone who has. If they were to somehow “meet Jesus” through such an event, I would certainly want to hear their account and determine for myself whether or not their claim was valid.

5) How on earth do scriptural principles about avoiding pagan practices apply in this day and age? We’re not going to have a written list of “Divination =A; Magic= B; Pagan worship =C. Yet according to your thinking, if we start naming things, we’re being legalistic.

Well, there doesn’t seem to be a clear standard of what constitutes pagan and what we’re ok with reclaiming. Christmas, Easter and sex have all been named, with no response from any who are disagreeing with Yoga. Why are they ok and Yoga isn’t?

The standard set by Paul in 1 Cor. 8 is pretty solid when it comes to matters like this. We don’t need to start a list because we have freedom in Christ. Now, obviously that means different things for different people, but just as we shouldn’t flaunt our downward facing dog when we’re with you, neither should you condemn us for our One-legged king pigeon.

6)What if a pastor who promotes yoga leads another believer into a place where he is unintentionally worshipping the undivine divine. Does the passage in Luke warning about leading people into sin (in this case “these little ones”)apply?

Matt 6:33 is pretty clear that if we earnestly seek after God we will find Him. I believe Jesus. While I suppose it would be possible to “lead people into sin” (which completely removes their free will, but that’s a mute point) I’m not sure that yoga is going to do that. If I were to follow that logic, I shouldn’t drink, provide my friends access to a computer, eat fatty foods or watch television.

52   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Matt,
Seriously, I believe that if Christians understood the nature of yoga and the nature of the enemy in the first place, they wouldn’t be so quick to jump into it, or perhaps I should say, stretch into it.

Regarding the Christian yoga course coupon – maybe you could send a donation for the new-to-me bike I just got (haven’t had a good bike for years, so I’m really excited about being able to tackle the hills around me.) I have always like sports and I once considered buying a Pilates course because I was told that it was “just stretching” – but when I read the box for the video, I decided I couldn’t. (Sorry I can’t remember exactly what it said.)

Besides scriptural cautions, my own experiences have made me cautious about just accepting pagan-associated things as harmless. I would rather err on the side of being too careful than on the side of opening myself up to the demonic. I don’t know if you ever read my comment to Neil regarding my experience with being semi-hypnotized when I unintentionally participated in a form of pagan healing.I think the same kind of thing could happen even with “Christian” yoga. Do I know that? Absolutely not. But then, neither do you know that it is harmless. It’s easy to look at someone with “bad experiences” such as Brian Flynn, or my own mentioned above, and call them “straw men” arguments. I’ve read other books by people involved in New Age stuff as well, and feel that there goal is compassion. They know the horror of what they’ve been through, and they don’t want other people to go there.

Regardless of what might or might not happen, there is scripture to consider. I have read up on Hinduism some and used to have a copy of their main religious text (I was planning to go to a Hindu country.) There’s some awful stuff in that religion. God hasn’t stopped being a “jealous God” and I just can’t see him smiling on our accepting “things of other gods” so readily.

53   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 12:32 pm

Anyone remember when playing cards was considered a sin? There were some in the rural south that taught that even touching playing cards could lead to the corruption of the soul. Come on, people, grow up!

54   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 12:33 pm

Chris,
Can you see if my last comment to Matt got filtered somehow. I just wrote it.

Todd,
I said,
2) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while practicing yoga? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she entered into the trance state through yoga.

You said, “Is this a bad thing?” Yes, it’s a bad thing if it’s another Jesus. And people have met “another Jesus” through various pagan techniques, for example theophostic healing. A vision of a peaceful loving Jesus can come, who will then do something immoral or completely out of character with Christ.

You can find all kinds of people “meeting Jesus” through all kinds of pagan practices. He may even seem like the real Jesus instead of one who gets distorted. What a great way for Satan to trick people into believing that they belong to Jesus.

I said, “3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as various types of healing?”

You said, “Does the healing work? If so, nothing.”

The Bible says that false prophets will perform all types of miracles, including healing. The question is not, “does it work?” but “Is it of God?” and “Am I being obedient to God in the first place by participating in this pagan practice?”

55   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 12:54 pm

Chris,
I find this statement to be very interesting: “Where the scripture is not clear, we need to allow room for charity. If you believe that you would be sinning to be in a Christian yoga class, then by all means, don’t do it! However, just because you are ‘weak’ in your faith, don’t expect that every other Christian in the world will cowtow to your self-imposed weakness.”

You speak of “allowing room for charity” yet you speak of the conviction of one who speaks against yoga as “weak” and of that weakness as “self-imposed,” and give them an attitude of expecting every other Christian in the world to “cowtow” to that weakness.

Charitable? How do you know that those who have different opinions of what scripture means and how it is applied are “weak” and “expecting others to cowtow to their weakness?” Maybe some are weak (so what?) and maybe some are expecting others to cowtow to their weakness – certainly not all. You overgeneralize.

What really seems to be the summation of your beliefs is that it is okay to have an internet full of invitations for Christians to engage in yoga, pastors who promote it. Anyone who disagrees with them is “weak.” Their arguments are illogical, flawed, straw-men, and they just want to push their own weak selves onto other Christians. So much for anyone who simply believes their convictions are worth sharing for other’s consideration. So much for anyone who truly believes that God may be being dishonored, or that Christians can be harmed. These weak and overbearing Christians need to be silenced.

It’s only the “strong” such as yourself who should be able to speak out.

Who is really expecting people to “cowtow?”

56   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 12:55 pm

Ken,
Not sure which post you were referring to, but thanks.

57   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 12:58 pm

I’d like to see Amy’s response to any of my thoughts? Did it really get filtered?

58   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 26th, 2007 at 1:01 pm

Amy, you never mentioned “another Jesus” in your question. I naturally assumed you meant THE Jesus. You’re bringing up a completely different argument with your response to my response than you did in your original question.

To the heart of your new point, just because somebody – not everybody, mind you – experiences a “false Jesus” doesn’t invalidate an entire practice.

Another great trick Satan uses is turning brother against brother, causing one to bring unfair judgement against another. I’ll give up yoga if you give up CRN.

59   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 1:04 pm

Chris,
From your most recent, “Watchdawggies” article, “straw man is “an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position” . . .”Or, to be more blunt, a straw man is a lie about your opponent which you then paint him with. ”

I’m just learning, but doesn’t that fit this:“However, just because you are ‘weak’ in your faith, don’t expect that every other Christian in the world will cowtow to your self-imposed weakness.”

And by the way, I have and probably always will have some issues with CRN, but there’s something about seeing the “watchdawwgies” being surrounded by blood-thirsty coyotes that helps me see some of the things that previously bothered me in a whole new light.

60   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 26th, 2007 at 1:05 pm

Oh, as to Amy’s comment “You can find all kinds of people “meeting Jesus” through all kinds of pagan practices. He may even seem like the real Jesus instead of one who gets distorted. What a great way for Satan to trick people into believing that they belong to Jesus.”

What does it mean to “belong to Jesus?”

61   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 26th, 2007 at 1:26 pm

ANSWERS TO AMY’S QUESTIONS:

1) the ones I have worked with, yes

2) The same thing that might prevent them from having a Christian experience at a church, at Starbucks, at home

3) The act of making something Christian would inherently take out the “pagan” part. If something is truly Christian, it cannot be pagan. The two cannot and will not exist together

4) If you follow true Christian meditation, you would know that it is not about falling into a trance state. It is about dwelling on the word of God. if they “enter into a trance state, to meet Jesus”, it would no longer be “christianized”

5) You listed it yourself. We are not practicing “pagan worship”, we a re worshiping God.

6)You missed the “Christian” before yoga. I don’t know any pastor that would say go do eastern meditation worship. They would say CHRISTIAN yoga. The two are completely different.

62   Neil    
April 26th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

Maybe Amy will answer my question about the pagan ontology of certain body positions sinc ken refuses.

Neil

63   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

Here’s the Roman Catholic response to Christian yoga:

In 1989 the Vatican issued a document saying the practice of Eastern traditions like yoga “can degenerate into a cult of the body,” warning Catholics against mistaking yoga’s “pleasing sensations” for “spiritual well-being.” It was signed by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger–now Pope Benedict XVI.

64   Neil    
April 26th, 2007 at 2:02 pm

It’s funny the things that people oppose.

Because some misuse contemplation techniques for things that are obviously unbiblical – anything resembling contemplation is wrong.

Because Hindu’s advocate certain stretching positions in worship, Christians should not assume the same stretching positions.

Yet, other things that are used and abused are not opposed – why?

I am not willing to give Evil so much power over my life that I refrain from things that are neutral because someone, somewhere, at sometime abused it.

If you say a physical position is evil – you are giving evil more power than it deserves.

Neil

65   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 2:02 pm

Apparently, there is even a war between the Christian stretchers and Christian yoga practicers. This company, called PraiseMoves, thinks yoga is bad and teaches stretches that are based on the Hebrew alphabet. Some are very similar to traditional yoga poses. The founder came out of the New Age movement and yoga.

http://www.praisemoves.com/

66   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 26th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Amy – the spam filter pulled your comment out for some reason (not sure what, though). It has been pulled out of the filter and posted.

You asked:

From your most recent, “Watchdawggies” article, “straw man is “an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent’s position” . . .”Or, to be more blunt, a straw man is a lie about your opponent which you then paint him with. ”

I’m just learning, but doesn’t that fit this:“However, just because you are ‘weak’ in your faith, don’t expect that every other Christian in the world will cowtow to your self-imposed weakness.”

Amy, perhaps you could be a bit more clear what the ’straw man’ is you’re trying to identify.

A church I attended a while back had a particular older woman who believed that it was sinful to have a drum set on stage (because drums were of pagan African origin). She went to an elder – frequently – to complain about this.

She tried to use the “weak” vs “strong” meat/idols discussion from Paul. The elder asked her if she believed that she was being led to sin by a drum being on stage. She said that no, she was not, but she was worried about other people. He told her that since he was a pastor, he would worry about that and that it wasn’t her concern.

The question he later asked in a small group discussing the situation (w/o names) was “how long must the ‘weaker’ brother remain ‘weak’ before there is some expectationof growing up?”

My point is that there is no direct (or even indirect) scriptural prohibition to music style, exercise style, meditation style (which is different than ‘prayer’), etc., yet a number of watchdawggie busybodies have taken it upon themselves to decide for everyone what is acceptable to God and what is not, and – in doing so – have put themselves in a completely untenable position, as illustrated by their continued celebration of Christmas on Dec 25th, Easter, the naming of the days of the week and the months of the year, and even the day-to-day language they use.

God is the Creator of all things, some of which have been twisted by Satan for his purposes. Satan is the creator of nothing. The focus on externals (music, exercise, place of worship, etc.) puts Satan on the level of creator – which he is not. Exercise and meditation are both of God – combining the two can be done in ways that honor or dishonor Him (the same way that a song can honor or dishonor Him). Christian “yoga” can bring honor to God. Hindu “yoga” dishonors God – it is what is internal (the heart) that matters.

So, let us look at the two observers of Christians taking yoga class at their church. One observer says “look at those sinners, they are putting themselves in danger of hellfire!” The other observer looks at the first observer and says “I think you’re mistaken – it is what is in their heart that matters, and what they are doing isn’t prohibited by scipture”. Who is the weaker and stronger brother here? Seems clear to me…

67   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 2:29 pm

Amy-

And the Greek pagan culture isn’t as bad as the Hindu culture? Is it ok to run a marathon, since it is directly tied into the Greek pagan culture?

68   Joe    
April 26th, 2007 at 2:36 pm

How do you accidentally worship a false God?

69   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 26th, 2007 at 2:38 pm

Amy and Ken,

I don’t recall either of you interacting with the running a marathon example. If you did and I missed it, I’m sorry.

Do either of you have a problem with running a marathon and/or do either of you (or have you ever) participate in any running of any kind?

Thanks, deborah

70   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 2:51 pm

This is pure conjecture on my part but I’d venture to say that Amy doesn’t have a problem with pagan Greek culture because, for the most part, nobody worships any of the Greek gods anymore, while Hinduism is alive and well. She is able to separate the two by saying Greek gods are fiction, yet Hinduism is active. I would also venture to guess that Greek culture is from the West, therefore not as evil, and Hinduism is from the east, and inherently more suspicious.

71   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 26th, 2007 at 2:53 pm

I’m not concerned with pagan Greek culture, I’m just curious if running in general is something that Ken and Amy are okay with.

Thanks, deborah

72   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 2:55 pm

Ken has said running is ok because it isn’t tied into any culture. Everyone runs. However, competitive running, and the way we’ve done it, is directly tied into the Ancient Pagan Greek culture.

73   Neil    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:00 pm

What difference does it make if an activity is tied to a culture?

Neil

74   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:01 pm

It makes no difference to me. I think it matters to Amy, Ken, and Chris P.

75   Joe    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:04 pm

Has anyone addressed the celebration of Christmas and Easter. I’ve seen a lot of questions but no answers.

76   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:08 pm

Scratch that, Pan is still worshipped by some today:

“Despite the declaration of his death, however, Pan is widely worshipped by Neopagans and Wiccans today, where he is considered a powerful deity and an archetype of male virility and sexuality, called the Horned God.”

So, one could be running a marathon, and like Pheidippides, meet Pan.

And yes, no one has answered the holidays questions either. I think they are afraid to admit it. It makes them look like JWs.

77   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 26th, 2007 at 3:12 pm

Just to clarify my use of ‘weak’ and ’strong’ per Paul’s meat/idol discussion:

Paul clearly identifies the ’strong’ brother as the one who sees that there is nothing ontologically sinful about eating meat sacrificed to an idol. He also clearly identifies the ‘weaker’ brother as one who superstitiously believes that meat sacrificed to an idol is still somehow ‘pagan’ by its very nature.

The parallel to this situation is clear.

78   Joe    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:27 pm

Does anyone remember when Star Wars came out? I had a ton of the toys. And then we went to a Darryl Dunn Crusade. He preached on the evils of Star Wars. I had to give all my toys up because somehow flying the Millennium Falcon was worshiping “New Age” style.
So I gave them to my neighbor and played with them over there, when he was home.

79   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:40 pm

I would be interested in what you all think of Todd’s responses to a couple of my questions. The first was,
1) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while practicing yoga? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she entered into the trance state through yoga.

And his response was “Is this a bad thing?”

I would like to know as well, do any of you think that meeting “another Jesus” can happen to people in pagan practices.

The third question was: 3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as various types of healing?

And his answer was, “Does the healing work? If so, nothing. .”

80   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:45 pm

The lie about your opponent which you then paint him with.

The strawman is the lie that you paint about your opponent: that his views are based on his self-imposed weakness, and that he is expecting everyone to cowtow to his position.

81   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 26th, 2007 at 3:45 pm

I fear that I’m confused by your concept of a “another Jesus.” What do you mean by that?

Also, you’re leaving off the second part of my answer to your third question. Not that it makes me look much better.

I’m just saying…

82   Joe    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:47 pm

Amy, I hesitate to get into this, but I’m not sure what you mean by another Jesus. I know a lot of people who do Yoga, and I’ve not met one of them who do it to worship anyone. There is only one Jesus. If you meet “another Jesus” you didn’t meet him, so of course that would be bad, but I’m still chewing on the “other Jesus” thing.

83   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:50 pm

Todd,
Another Jesus – people receive pictures of Jesus, peace, etc in different types of meditations. They can receive these whether or not they believe that Jesus is the Son of God, that He died for their sins, rose again, etc . . . They can believe they’ve had a “born again” experience without repenting, without even understanding who Jesus is or why he died for them.

I left the last part of your quotation off just to simplify. I don’t think it changes the meaning of the first part. If you do, maybe you can repost it. I’m not trying to pick on you – I just want to know if people agree with your ideas, because if they do, the issue here is much bigger than yoga.

84   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:51 pm

1) What’s wrong with having a Christian experience while practicing anything? If you are jogging and thinking about a passage in the Bible you read earlier in the day and God uses that passage at that moment, that’s great!

2) I’ve heard of Muslims becoming Christians because they meet Jesus in a dream while they sleep. I have no problem with that.

I even think people could meet Jesus in the middle of a pagan practice. The real Jesus. I don’t think you can contain God.

3) The health benefits of stretching are well documented. Since the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, by all means, let’s Christianize stretching. Vodoos practice animal sacrifice. There is no benefit, physical or spiritual, to sacrificing. That, to me, is out.

85   Matt    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:54 pm

I’ve taken a stab at answering your questions, I’d appreciate you not avoiding the holiday or marathon questions. It’s only fair.

86   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 26th, 2007 at 3:55 pm

The point of my saying “if it works…” is that I don’t believe healing works. If it did, we would have a different discussion. Since it doesn’t, to use it would be a lie, and therefore completely different from yoga.

There is no such thing as another Jesus. Either it’s Jesus, and they’re truly transformed, or they’re not. I don’t buy into the idea that once you “accept Jesus” (whatever that means) you’re done. If somebody feels that they have “accepted Jesus” and then nothing in their life changes, it’s our job as followers of Christ to correct them – this is true no matter how they came into contact with Jesus. If they believe Jesus and live as He directs, then I don’t believe it matters how they arrived there.

87   Joe    
April 26th, 2007 at 3:59 pm

Wow, I missed the whole healing thing. I’ll have to go back up and find it. Is it this thread?

88   Joe    
April 26th, 2007 at 4:05 pm

Oh, I found it! Sorry I missed that. I thought for a second we were saying God doesn’t heal today.

89   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 26th, 2007 at 4:12 pm

Amy,

You misunderstand what a strawman is, apparently. You wrote:

The strawman is the lie that you paint about your opponent: that his views are based on his self-imposed weakness, and that he is expecting everyone to cowtow to his position.

The strawman takes a persons views (”A”), and then says that view “A” = view “B” which is usually something obviously disproven.

In this case, though, I am using Paul’s definition of ‘weaker’ brother – one who sees an ontologically neutral act as somehow spiritually corrupt by pagan usage of that act. Then, I am wondering whether the ‘weaker’ brother – who, I might add, in this case does not seems to be led to sin, since they have no interest in yoga – must expect everyone else to kowtow to their ‘weakness’.

whether or not you’ve identified yourself with Ken as the weaker brother in my interpretation, I fail to see how this is a straw man – what is your position (”A”) that I have I said “what Amy REALLY means is “B”"?

90   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 26th, 2007 at 4:14 pm

“I thought for a second we were saying God doesn’t heal today.”

Doh! Rewrite:
“…I don’t believe healing outside of the Holy Spirit actually works.”

91   Neil    
April 26th, 2007 at 4:27 pm

Amy,

Are you saying someone here lies about our “opponents?”

Neil

92   james    
April 26th, 2007 at 5:48 pm

Amy,

I, personally, share your concern of meeting “another Jesus” and pagan healings, but let’s not use these issues to distract from the argument at hand. We have to be extremely cautious not to get caught up in the religion/prayer/worship of yoga, but let’s not forbid good exercises just because they can be used for evil. If we do forbid these exercises we also MUST forbid Christmas trees, marathons, pagan language, etc. I think we can agree that while in an ideal world these things would not be used, but in the real world, that is a little extreme. Really, though, I understand your concern, but let’s not confuse things that are concerning with things that are wrong.

93   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 10:36 pm

Chris,
Regarding your “strawman” statements, your statement in no way communicated that you were only speaking of Ken. The original statement was: “However, just because you are ‘weak’ in your faith, don’t expect that every other Christian in the world will cowtow to your self-imposed weakness.” I assumed that you were using the “you” either to talk directly to me or as a general kind of “you.” I took the second as more likely and at one point changed it to masculine singular, “he.” I could have just as well used the “one.” I don’t see how it could possibly have referred to Ken in the original context.

Assuming then that the original “you” was a general one, then to identify everyone who disagrees with Christian yoga as having views that are based on their self-imposed weakness, with an attitude that everyone is expected to cowtow to their position, is painting with a very large brush and lying about your opponent.

If the “you” referred to me, well we’ll let God decide if I’m the weaker sister or not; self-imposed weakness sounds kind of nasty. I am definitely not expecting anyone to “cowtow” to my position. I never have hopes that anyone will “cowtow” to any position I have, although I sometimes hope someone will at least give it some consideration. But when my concerns are labeled “non-starters,” there isn’t much hope, is there?

94   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 10:53 pm

James,
I think the issues related to pagan healing are critical to looking at the whole issue of yoga. People take pagan methods of healing and “Christianize” them, and think that by doing so they’re reidentifying those methods as gifts of God. They do all the same “moves” such as accessing someone’s energy and making moves to realign it. It all looks the same on the surface as it would if a non-Christian were doing it, yet because the practicioners are Christian they relabel it “Christian.” Christians who receive treatment by pagan methods often don’t even recognize them as pagan. They participate in such things as energy alignment, distance healing, hypnosis, etc.

Why should we assume that Christians can even recognize pagan when they are participating in a pagan activity? Why do we assume that it will bother them much if they do recognize it as pagan? And why do we assume that they will recognize “another Jesus” as such. These are some of my concerns.

I have zero experience in yoga; I do have experience being the “victim” of pagan medicine. There are really lots of parallels between the arguments that Christians use for and against the two.

95   Neil    
April 26th, 2007 at 11:08 pm

Are certain postures pagan ontologically, or because pagans use them? Just trying to understand your position (no pun intended)?

What difference does it make if an activity is tied to a culture?

96   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 26th, 2007 at 11:12 pm

Amy,

you seem to not have a very good grasp on this issue (and aren’t answering the questions regarding running, Christmas and easter). The difference between energy alignment, distance healing, hypnosis, etc. and Christian yoga is that you cannot separate the action from the pagan practice. In order for them to “work”, you have to call upon pagan gods.

In yoga, there is the pagan meditation, and the healthy stretches. They are two elements. So, we take out the pagan meditation and have people recite scripture in their mind. That makes it Christian yoga, not pagan yoga.

Since so many of us were so willing to answer your questions, would you answer these?

1. Christians have taken the once pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter and made them “Christian” holidays. Should we stop celebrating them because they are/were celebrated by pagans?

2. If I stand a pray is that a sin?

3. If I stand, and lift my foot to my knee to stretch, does it suddenly become a sin?

4. Would it be wrong to take pagan bar songs and…say… change the words and turn them into Christian songs?

5. Would it be wrong to take those bar songs turned Christian and sing them as worship songs to God?

97   amy    
April 26th, 2007 at 11:29 pm

Nathan,
“The difference between energy alignment, distance healing, hypnosis, etc. and Christian yoga is that you cannot separate the action from the pagan practice. In order for them to “work”, you have to call upon pagan gods.”

I don’t believe that people have to intentionally call on pagan gods for demonic activity to take place through a pagan activity.

If it weren’t for privacy concerns I could provide you with about a 3 page document from a pastor detailing how she does distance healing and how it is a gift from God. She believes that the power she is invoking is God. She uses the methods of the Asian master plus some she’s learned on her own. Does it “work” for her? I don’t have evidence one way or another. She certainly believes it does. I believe that even though she thinks she is doing this “in the name of Christ” that she is essentially calling on demonic spirits.

I couldn’t provide a document for energy healing, but I know stories of Christians who use it, and don’t believe it’s pagan. And I would say from my own (involuntary) experience that at least sometimes it works.

Christians also use pagan hypnosis techniques. Check out theophostic healing for example. People see visions, etc, – I have heard from leaders of this that some of these visions are of a Jesus who is not the real Jesus – one who “distorts” into something demonic, for example.

There are all kinds all kinds of stories from people who get involved in demonic activity without “calling on pagan gods.”

98   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 12:42 am

Amy,

1) You obviously don’t understand what a “straw man” is, so maybe it’s best to just drop it. The example you’ve given does not match the formula/progression for a straw man. All you’ve done is to disagree with my exegesis of Paul’s ‘weak’ vs. ’strong’ – which has nothing to do with straw men…

I will give you that “kowtow” may be too strong a word (implying that they expect compliance with their position). Perhaps a better phrase would be that “the ‘weaker’ brother/sister holds a view that the ’stronger’ brother is sinning by exercising the freedom permitted by God, and that disagreement with the ‘weaker’ brother/sister is demonstration of a lack of ‘discernment’”.

I’m not sure how you can escape the parallels between the discussion on yoga (and the stronger/weaker designation) and eating meat sacrificed to idols. In each case you have an ontologically neutral activity (eating meat/exercising) which has been subverted by pagans (meat sacrificed to an idol/exercising with Hindu meditation) – Paul clearly indicates that the activity is ontologically permitted, but that the ‘weaker’ brother cannot see this because of their spiritual immaturity in determining the ontological neutrality of the activity apart from its cognitive component.

Why is the use of high places a non-starter? Because we have an activity specifically permitted (worship in the Temple or Tabernacle) and an activity specifically forbidden (worship in high places). From the context and the history, we also have a clear understanding of this prohibition – The use of “high places” is specifically a fertility rite associated with sympathetic “magic” to bring a god to grant rain and fertility in ’sympathy’ with the demonstrated activity of the worshippers (i.e. the people would have sex in the high places – symbolizing fertility that they wanted the gods to bring to the earth).

We also know from Christian history that the affect of God’s commandment to only worship in the Temple was required for the ending of the sacrificial system and the transition from God in a fixed location (the Temple) to God among his people (in the Temple of the Holy Spirit), accomplished on Pentecost 33 A.D. There is no comparison with the discussion at hand.

2) You said:

I don’t believe that people have to intentionally call on pagan gods for demonic activity to take place through a pagan activity.

This would seem to indicate that you believe that certain activities – apart from their cognitive components – are ontologically pagan/evil. Is this so?

If so, what positions are ontologically evil?

Do you celebrate Christmas on December 25?

Do you celebrate Easter?

Do you support marathons?

Do you call the days of the week by the names of pagan gods? (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc.) Do you call the months by the names of the deified Caesars and gods for which the Julian months are named? Do you wear clothing made by companies with pagan names (like Nike, the Roman goddess of victory)?

And on, and on, and on…

At what point does an activity – apart from its cognitive component – become ontologically evil in your eyes? At what point is it no longer ontologically evil?

Where does the legalism end and the “discernment” begin?

3) To your early anaology of the “watchdawggie” being attacked, I think you’ve got it wrong. The reason you own a watchdog is to keep enemies out and to protect your friends and family. When the watchdog starts biting friends and family, it’s time to put the dog down. When the dog is rabid, you’ve got to protect others from the dog. That is what we do with the rabid “watchdog” that is CRN.

Why do you not hold Ken to the same standard of “tolerance” that you seem to be requesting of us?

99   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 27th, 2007 at 6:58 am

Amy, regarding your quote:
“Why should we assume that Christians can even recognize pagan when they are participating in a pagan activity? Why do we assume that it will bother them much if they do recognize it as pagan?”

That is why I have been pursuing the running angle on this discussion. I’m not sure what conclusions to draw from the fact that you did not answer the question I posed.

The interesting thing is that I read an article the other day about the Hopi religion and the role of running in it. The article, in “Arizona Highways” is full of wonderful quotes like: “Running is sacred, a moving prayer”, “sprinting for spiritual ceremonies”, “running for rain just as the Cloud people have done for thousands of years”, “Hopis pray on their feet”, “the runner becomes the prayer”, and “The Cloud spirits are believed to rejoice in this dsiplay of fleetness”.

This is not about ancient Greeks who participated in a pagan practice, but an active religion that uses running to channel their gods and to provide sacrifice to them.

So, clearly this is a current pagan practice. Should we, as Christians, refuse to run, tear down our running tracks, burn our jogging suits and excomunicate those in our midst would participate in such a display?

More importantly, should we disregard any and all the words of the apostle Paul since he used the phrase “run the good race” and used running as an example of how Christians should practice their faith in 1 Cor 9, as he clearly supported such pagan practices?

deborah

100   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 8:22 am

Deborah,
I haven’t had time to read all the comments here – many I’ve just scanned. I’ve had a hard enough time addressing questions that I felt were directly related, without answering questions that are indirectly related. There are always “other questions” around issues and it can be helpful to look at them, or it can be a distraction. I could spend a lot of time answering questions about holidays, running, etc. They aren’t going to change my feelings about the danger of yoga.

Answering those questions isn’t going to help me “prove my point.” Neither is not answering them. So I choose to just leave them. Even if I chose to address them, I couldn’t have gotten around to it – timewise – yet, without giving up something else I needed to be doing.

Last night I was wondering about how many of the “healing-related” things I have brought up to Nathan have their roots in Hindu philosophy, as does Hindu. Energy healing does for sure. I can’t help but think that God allowed the experience that I had with this for a reason. My participation in it was unintentional; the person who was doing it is a Christian leader; he said he had no idea why it worked. I didn’t know what he was doing, yet ended up at least borderline hypnotized. If you look at energy healing, I think you could find many similarities behind its history and its goals to yoga.

You can find story after story about people who end up “oppressed” who believe they ended up that way because of unwittingly or unwisely participating in some kind of “new age” activity. Some people deal with these issues for life. Even young children can get “spirit guides” through visualing taught in classrooms. There’s enough stories about these things out there that I think that people shouldn’t just scoff at them.

People can share all kinds of stories about playing with New Age toys, etc, and decide that their experience legitimizes all other types of participation. It doesn’t change the reality of the pain that people go through because they are experiencing demonic oppression.

It’s not possible in these kinds of discussions to “prove a point.” It is possible to try to think of relevant scriptures and to communicate one’s own belief that something needs to be avoided.

Chris,
There is always “discernment” needed. What I see over and over is an outright rebuttal of considering that many who view something as potentially spiritually destructive and unbiblical aren’t given an ear. The immediate reaction is to start reacting to their “legalism,” and to misunderstand their motives.

I haven’t read much of Brian Flynn so don’t want to start “defending” him, but I think that someone from his kind of background, who has possibly suffered demonic oppression from what he’s gone through has a heart that wants to help other people avoid what he has gone through.

Instead of listening to warnings to “put on the lifejacket, the waves are high” those who are being surrounded by high waves want to discuss the silliness of wearing life-jackets in creeks, how high a wave has to be before it’s dangerous, whether or not the waves are in and of themselves ontologically dangerous. Christians who feel strongly about certain issues may have been somewhere in their spiritual lives, in a good or bad direction, that gives them some credibility. Sometimes it’s better to listen and learn at least a little than to automatically get defensive.

101   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 8:25 am

Chris,
I’ll try to answer your question about Ken later.

102   Joe    
April 27th, 2007 at 8:33 am

Amy, it sounds to me that if you are right about Yoga, you are dismissing the high waves that Deborah brought up about running.

103   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 9:26 am

Amy,

Your ‘distance healing’ examples have moved out of the realm of a physical activity (exercise) with a cognitive component (meditation), into a strictly cognitive one, which – I believe – would fall into the prohibitions around divination (because it seems, as you’re explaining them, that these things go beyond praying for healing).

In the case of Christian yoga, the physical activity component (which, I believe to be ontologically neutral, unless you can show me which exercises and body positions are ontologically evil) remains, but the cognitive activity(meditation) has replaced clearly unscriptural activity (Hindu worship) with scriptural activity (meditation on Scripture).

Flynn’s article does nothing to actually examine the issue, but simply gives scripturally unsupported hyperbole and easily refuted logic, which he then builds on to take potshots at the church. Yes, he went through some experiences with the New Age movement, but that does not make him an expert on New Age discernment – but more likely the contrary. There’s an old saying about how when you buy a new hammer the whole world looks like a nail. In the same way, when people escape from a particular situation they got themselves into, everything they associated with that situation suddenly looks to be part and parcel of what defines it.

104   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 27th, 2007 at 9:31 am

Answering those questions isn’t going to help me “prove my point.” Neither is not answering them. So I choose to just leave them.

Amy,

The fact is, many of these questions will prove our point. Not answering questions because they will not prove your point is not very fair in discussion. I would appreciate and answer on my five (I have always tried to address yours here). I think you might have a change of hear when you are confronted with the hard issues.

105   Matt    
April 27th, 2007 at 9:31 am

Here’s MacArthur’s response to Christmas. He admits that Christmas trees are pagan.

http://www.biblebb.com/files/macqa/1301-J-4.htm

106   Matt    
April 27th, 2007 at 9:39 am

Further comments from MacArthur. I love how he uses the weaker brother scripture, like we’ve been using:

“Most people do not even know about this religious superstition. Similarly, few know anything about the worship of trees. When a child pulls a large present out from under the Christmas tree and unwraps a large model cargo plane, no one views that object as an idol. Nor do we view the Christmas tree to be some kind of gift god. We understand the difference between a toy and an idol just as clearly as we understand the difference between an idol and a Christmas tree. We see no valid reason to make any connection between Christmas trees and wooden idols or the worship of trees. Those who insist on making such associations should take note of the warnings in Scripture against judging one another in doubtful things (see Romans 14 & 1 Corinthians 10:23-33).”

107   jonbean    
April 27th, 2007 at 10:42 am

I don’t comment too often here but I am an avid reader. I guess I’m a little frustrated by the fact that while Amy does not have time to address the questions posed to her she does in fact have time to post a rather lengthy response regarding how answering those questions would be counterproductive. To me it seems obvious that things like Christian Yoga and Christmas and marathons etc… are not evil simply because they exist. There has to be an element of purpose for them to become evil. For instance if I’m walking down the sidewalk and trip and while falling my body assumes the “downward dog” posture while trying to fall oh so gracefully, I think it’s safe to say that I’m not sinning. If we commit our activities to God, he is glorified in them. Someone else said that our bodies were created to stretch. Stretching improves our health and body function. In fact, not stretching can harm our body function. I have never done yoga, Christian or otherwise in my life but if it’s wrong to exercise and think about God’s word than I’ve misunderstood what it means to “pray without ceasing” and “meditate on his word day and night.”

108   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 11:23 am

Hi everyone, wow this issue has really opened a can of worms. This is the first time I have posted on this site and I would like to say right off the bat that I am cautious about these practices that Christians are accepting. As Christians we need to be careful not to take anything that the world does or is pagan in it spiritual origins slap “Christian” before it and call it good. I read CRN often; I also read stuff out of the emergent camp as well. CRN can and does take things way too far; however I think that they do serve a purpose, if approached properly. Please folks do not minimize that fact that deception is making its way into the church. The New Age spirituality has arrived, learn about Alice Bailey(GodMother of New Age Spirituality) and the books that she channeled through a spirit guide. Understand that she said that her movement would make its way into Christendom. There is a lot to learn on both sides of the isle in Christianity, is there anyway we can stop fighting and come together to whip out deception? I hope so. CRN needs to stop questioning peoples salvation and start positively sending out the warning to the church, Emergents need to stop being so flippant with their spirituality and understand that we fight a spiritual battle and if they are not careful then they could be deceived. God Bless all

109   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 27th, 2007 at 11:49 am

Answering those questions isn’t going to help me “prove my point.” Neither is not answering them. So I choose to just leave them.

Here, here! Me too. :-)

110   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 27th, 2007 at 11:54 am

Ken, that isn’t really something to be proud of. It’s actually a quite embarrassing response on a blog where discussion is the point, not preaching.

We take the time to answer questions, why do you feel you’re above lowering yourself to do the same?

111   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 27th, 2007 at 11:56 am

Thanks Todd, perhaps take the log out of your eye. I was quoting one of the “we” here.

112   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 27th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Really? Is Amy one of the “we?”

Oh, and I fully recognize my logs, I’m just not sure this is one of them.

113   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 27th, 2007 at 12:12 pm

Yet, Ken, you stated, “Here, here! Me too. ” like you totally agreed with the statement… so then Todd statement is is very valid…

Again, you brush aside questions to avoid accountability? Is that it… or is it that you can’t answer as if you were truthful to what you really thought, it would incriminate you, or worse validate what we say is true?

You responses to me are far from humble… and they show a true lack of honest hope to reach me if you view me lost… or even confused and in error… they just show you to have a critical and sarcastic spirit… and truthfully I see very little joy…

Jesus burdens are light… if He carries them… I have found that to depend on Jesus totally, has given me freedom… and that freedom is to serve Him completely… I no longer fear that I am not approved by God or man… I know where I stand in Christ with confidence… do you? Or do you fear that if you stray God will not love you… or accept you?

Do you live in fear, or in the love and LIFE of Christ Jesus? Do you do “your” works to show God how much you love Him? Or do you let Him do His works in and through you standing back in amazement at his Glory shining through?

Do you worry Ken of what others think? Not us… we know we really do not matter otherwise you would answer our questions… I for one know I am so far beneath you that i am not even worthy to talk to you nor if ever stand in your presence… but those other ones… the ones that give you atta boys as you do your thing? What if you found that all you are doing is wrong, can you or would you walk away and ask for forgiveness to those you harmed? That is a tough thing to do… I know… I had to do it… so I am not judging you… just asking if you could do it…

Ken, I do genuinely care for you otherwise this would be a total waste of my time… I pray for you… you have been placed on my heart to pray for… to reach out to…

I know you do not believe that… but it is true…
You have my email address… if you want to talk, I will also give my phone number to you…

Now, go ahead and call me a pharisee and that I should have done this privately… but I have tried and you seem to want nothing of me… so I ask all to pray for Ken… and let him know we do care for him…

Blessings,
iggy

114   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 12:18 pm

You know I want to bring this out as well, the original blog stated the following “Jesus didn’t call us to play it safe – he called us to serve: heart, soul, mind and strength. ” The Bible is full of warnings for believers to not be deceived.

115   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 27th, 2007 at 12:23 pm

Wow, Amy is one of the most conservative commentors here and Ken turned on her. I don’t think she deserved that. Ken should be ashamed of himself for treating her with that level of sarcasm. I think it takes a lot of guts for her to keep comming back even though she may get her feelings hurt and the discussions can get very intense, but for him to speak that way to her, my children are more respectful and they are 3 and 6.

I’m sorry Amy.

deborah

116   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 27th, 2007 at 12:26 pm

Amy, I meant no disrespect by my comment by the way. I too appreciate your presence and comments here.

If you ever want to you, you can be a “we!”

117   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 12:41 pm

Yeah, the more I read Ken on this blog the more I think he needs to take a chill pill, I have heard him on Corley’s show and he really gets worked up over some of this stuff. There is value in what Ken does, but the approach and misguided judgment(questioning ones salvation) needs to be worked on.

deborah,
I visited your blog, I like how you describe yourself as finding your way between fundementalism and emerging. I lean towards fundemental but I like some of what emergent is doing with regards to service to others. I believe in christian liberty, however I am concerned that too many have used it as a license to do what ever and disregard righteousness.

118   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 1:36 pm

Thanks for the sympathy everyone. Amy isn’t one of the “we” here or there, and I think that “we ALL” – you all PLUS Ken know that. I don’t think Ken meant the remark unkindly by the way. But then I think you all are thinking that I’m pretty low on discernment right now, so you all probably think I’m wrong about that :) .

I will say again that answering all your questions will not have an affect on how I look at yoga. Sorry if I seem lazy, unfair, or whatever. There’s just no point.

I could tell you however, what the end of all the discussion would be (a little appeasement, and no, I’m not claiming to be a prophet.) The end of the discussion would be “That’s illogical. She can’t look at A in that way without looking at B in this way, and so forth. ” So, sigh, I’ve saved us all a lot of time . . . .

But please do remember that these kinds of arguments, A is similar to B in some way, therefore if A is wrong, then they both have to be wrong, can work all kinds of ways. A person can say “A is similar to B in some way, therefore if A is right, then they both have to be right.” Some will take your arguments for Christian yoga, or arguments for doing secular yoga because it’s really not “religious,” and apply them to all kinds of things: Christian healing, as I’ve shown some above, and some will take them and apply them to all forms of meditation, as is already happening. Just remember that if you are ever convinced that something is going to be harmful to the body of Christ and want to warn people of it.

And again, Chris, THIS argument also reminds me of the way some look at a person who is anti-abortion. How can a person consider abortion wrong if they aren’t a pacifist? I could get in a discussion like that in a number of places, and feel guilty, and that I needed to absolutely prove my logic. Are I could simply think, I know that I’m not going to change my mind on my anti-abortion stance, and I know I CAN’T PROVE ANYTHING to everyone who thinks differently.

119   Matt    
April 27th, 2007 at 1:53 pm

Amy, this discussion reminds me of what fundamentalists say about alcohol. They say we can never drink. Then you ask them questions like, “Did Jesus drink”, “What about the old Testament and alcohol?”, “What about Paul telling Timothy to drink?”. The questions pile up because the law the fundamentalists invent is one that isn’t even in the Bible.

The antistretching stance is a fake law that you’ve added into your Bible and to Christianity.

In addition, I think there are some racial/cultural bigotries that you are starting to reveal. Like Ingrid doesn’t like rock music because it comes from Africa and isn’t as good as White Classical Music, you are bigoted to physical activity that come from a nonwhite culture like India and think physical activity that has roots in Greek culture is superior.

By the way, I don’t drink because I have an alcohol allergy. I don’t have problems with Christians drinking, as long as they don’t get drunk.

120   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 27th, 2007 at 2:03 pm

Amy,

I have said this before, but it seems like you have had alot of bad experiences with new age practices in the past. Because of that, I feel like you may have a sensitivity when anything about that subject is brought up. Much in the same why that a person who has been molested as a child will react more passionately against it than someone who hasn’t.

This is ok, but you have to be aware that this might be a possibility. And, overreaction to a subject is not only likely, but expected. With that, you might ask yourself, am I reacting to this because of my past, or because of biblical principles.

121   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 2:12 pm

Amy,

I can reconcile being anti-abortion and not being a pacifist via scripture. I cannot reconcile “Christian yoga” as sinful via scripture with the limited scriptures chosen to back that stance thus far – from you or Ken. The “Christian healing” that you’ve referenced above, I believe (in some of the way you’ve described it) would fall under divination or putting the Lord to the test.

Yes, everything “new” (which is a misnomer, since there is nothing new under the sun) needs to be tested and ‘discerned’, but the harping on Christian yoga, as has been shown, is fully unwarranted.

What you have done, though, here – as with the Obama discussion – is inserted a Slippery Slope logical fallacy in saying:

1. A has occurred (or will or might occur); therefore
2. B will inevitably happen. (slippery slope)
3. B is wrong; therefore
4. A is wrong. (straw man)

It doesn’t work that way. The argument you and Ken seem to be using regarding pagan origins makes your answers to the questions you both refuse to answer (about body position, Christmas, Easter, running, etc.) HIGHLY relevant, because the answers reveal whether you are consistent with your own beliefs, or selective in enforcing your beliefs based on some unspoken criteria.

Paul says it this way:

Everything is permissible”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible”—but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.

Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”

If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. But if anyone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience’ sake— the other man’s conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another’s conscience? If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for?

So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved.

So yes, I would agree that great care be taken not to lead others into sin, and that decisions be made deliberately, rather than what is easiest.

So – by Paul’s measuring stick – this practice “permissable”. The question is, is it “beneficial” and “constructive”. From those I know who participate in it, I would say that indeed it is both.

Now, from the context of Paul’s writing, where care needs to be taken is with the apparent ‘weaker’ brother (the “anyone”) who cannot (or will not) see that it is “permissable”. Part of this is allayed in Christian yoga by specifically pointing out that nothing Hindu is brought in to the meditation involved with the activity, and by the very name of the activity (to distinguish it from what you might do down at the local Y).

Now, another question then arises: At what point does the ‘weaker’ brother have a responsibility to no longer be ‘weaker’?

122   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 2:47 pm

Yes, bad experiences, and more than I’ve described or could describe. And through them God allowed me to see the terror of the nature of the spiritual world that many folks don’t really believe in. And scripture supports the experiences, “Satan creeps around like a roaring lion, in search of someone to tear to pieces.” (my own wording)

Is my reaction to those things an overreaction? I recall reading a book about Warsaw and the Jewish ghetto there during World War II. There was a young man from Warsaw who had been taken prisoner and put in a concentration camp some time before the Jews started being taken away from there. Somehow he came back, and he started telling people what was going on “on the outside,” in concentration camps. Hardly anyone believed him.

Yes, he had bad experiences in the concentration camp. But those experiences were reality, and represented the reality of many other concentration camps. Was he overreacting by trying to warn those he loved about the danger?

Did the fact that he had had the experiences change the nature of the concentration camps? No, and the fact that I’ve had experiences with the demonic world doesn’t change the nature of the demonic world.

My experience gives me a deep understanding of why I should be very cautious about getting involved in pagan things. But what the bible says is the most important thing; there are plenty of biblical principles that apply to many things we’ve discussed. But honestly, when have we (as in all of you and me) ever agreed on how biblical principles should be applied? Hardly ever, for sure.

123   Matt    
April 27th, 2007 at 2:57 pm

Are the practices of Wiccan as real as Hinduism?

I don’t actually expect an answer. It almost proves my point that you, Silva, Chris P, etc are just “too much damn, not much fun, and definitely mental”.

By the way, I have a friend who was involved with Wiccan. Then she realized there was a demon her house. She prayed to accept Jesus and is now a Christian. Even paganism/witchcraft can be used to by God.

124   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 3:00 pm

Matt,
You said,” In addition, I think there are some racial/cultural bigotries that you are starting to reveal. Like Ingrid doesn’t like rock music because it comes from Africa and isn’t as good as White Classical Music, you are bigoted to physical activity that come from a nonwhite culture like India and think physical activity that has roots in Greek culture is superior.”"

Guess again. I spent many years preparing to live in India (couldn’t ever get in because of visa problems). Also I spent a couple of painful years of my young teen-age life being ostracized by the popular white kids who had previously been my friends. Why? Because I would not abandon one of my friends who, horror of horrors, liked an African-American boy.

I have also lived among and made my life’s work to several other races, given much of my life to them – all brown-skinned except for one. I count some of them my best friends.

It’s all I can do to refrain from making some very angry comment that I will later regret.

125   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 3:03 pm

Amy,

Simply:

1) What body positions/exercises are ontologically evil?

2) Should Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25?

3) Should Christians participate in Marathons or Olympic sports?

4) Should Christians celebrate Easter?

126   Matt    
April 27th, 2007 at 3:06 pm

Ok, my questions/accusations were out of line. I apologize.

I’d love to see an answer to Chris L’s questions.

127   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 27th, 2007 at 3:26 pm

Amy,

You said, “I don’t think Ken meant the remark unkindly by the way.”

You are absolutely correct, and I’ve never been upset with you. :-)

128   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 27th, 2007 at 3:35 pm

I love how Ken ad Chris P. don’t mind their amen choruses. But when someone agrees with us… watch out!

129   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 27th, 2007 at 3:43 pm

Amy,

I agree with most of your analogy. But here is how it applies better to the situation….

what if the Jewish boy, after the holocaust was over, went around and said every German was a horrible Nazi. We know that is false, because some Germans helped Jews, but it is understandable why the boy would do that. He experienced horrible things at the hands of Germans and now associates all things German with the Nazis.

You have admitted that you have little experience with yoga, or even Christian yoga. What I believe you are doing is similar to that little boy. You had some very bad experiences with Eastern mysticism, and now anything that even looks eastern, you react to as negative. I understand this, I just think you as a person need to be aware that it is a possibility and it may be informing your decisions.

130   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 5:12 pm

Nathan,
The main issue is that I read the OT a lot, and I continually see in it a God who does not want his people to be involved in pagan practices. (And these things are clear in the NT as well.)Yoga is incredibly pagan, and the movements are an essential part of the whole thing. To start talking about separating its parts might make sense to our logic, but does it make sense to God? My understanding of the Jews worshipping in high places that had been used for pagan worship, that some of the people may have been trying to separate their worship of YAHWEH from pagan worship in their own minds. But some (many ?) of them saw their worshipping in the high places as a way of appeasing the Canaanite gods. When God declared such worship disobedience, they were simply expected to obey, without trying to justify or reason regarding what they were doing.

Also, I realize that the experience that I had with the energy – healing is so much like what could happen to someone practicing yoga, even “Christian” yoga. I can’t separate the one from the other – and I believe that if I were to do an in-depth study of the two that why I can’t separate them might become even clearer to me. I do know that they are both about “realigning energy.” The experience went beyond my understanding, and I know that now, if I were to willingly participate in such an activity, it would be disobedience on my part.

God forbids a lot of things because Satan does use them. I would rather be on the “too careful” side, than the offending God or opening myself up to Satan side. I often think of God’s love for Israel and his description of himself as a jealous God, one who loves Israel and wants the best for her, and hates to keep seeing her walk down the paths he has forbidden, because He loves her. If there is any possibility that in any practice I could inadvertently be honoring a religion such as Hinduism, with its multiplicity of gods, instead of demonstrating allegiance to God, then I won’t practice it. Because I love God; I know that I often fail Him – I want to keep from intentionally doing it as much as I can. For me “keeping from intentionally doing it” means avoiding things in which I have experienced some type of power that doesn’t come from God.

You have a good point about the Jewish boy, but “All Germans are definitely not Nazis.” could be proven.” Can we prove that “All Christian yoga has lost its connection with Paganism.” You think so, and I think not. Who is right? This may surprise you, but I honestly don’t know, with my “head”. But I do know that the scriptures about separating from Paganism speak to me loud and clear here. If there is some possibility that there can be some demonic activity going on there – then this is not a Romans 14 situation of “meat offered to idols.” It is a situation of knowing what spirit is present in the practice – and perhaps even more importantly, what spirit is at practice in getting Christians to accept it. I do believe that Satan works gradually at getting people to accept things that they shouldn’t, to draw them further and further away from Him.

131   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 27th, 2007 at 5:44 pm

Amy,

I think that the question is “All Christian yoga has lost its connection with Paganism” can be answered with the answers to the questions about running, Christmas, Christmas trees and Easter… even that names we devote to the days of the week. We use former pagan practices all the time, but somehow they are different.

Now, this may suprise you, but I am some that some Christian yoga instructor somewhere in the world has taken things a bit far and has crossed over into the ungodly. the problem with that is it inherently, by name and nature, is not Christian yoga anymore. It goes back to pagan yoga. For it to be “Christian”, it has to be following biblical standards.

Maybe we are asking the wrong questions to each other. I just said that some Christian yoga could go wrong (which would not make it “Christian” anymore). Would you disagree or agree that it is even possible for Christian yoga, done in a healthy and biblical way, to be good?

let me give you this scenario…

there is a Christian yoga class for mothers. It meets in the fellowship hall at the church every Wednesday morning. All ten moms arrive. The instructor prays, has the ladies sit down, relax, close their eyes… and she quotes scripture to them.
The instructor then puts on some praise music, and has the ladies repeat a psalm back to her while hey stretch. She then has them pray while they stretch, and she plays a hymn music CD. Once they are done, they have a quick 10 minute bible study, and leave. All walk out spiritually and physically refreshed.

132   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 6:15 pm

Would you disagree or agree that it is even possible for Christian yoga, done in a healthy and biblical way, to be good? Based purely on my “feelings” I think I could say something really definitive like, “well, maybe, um, well . . . ” Based on the Word of God and the way I believe the Holy Spirit is leading me, I say I disagree.

I think that anyone teaching a “Christian”class such as you you described should require her students to do the following reading before they join class:

readings on yoga (starting with wikipedia) and investigation into all the various types
readings on new age
readings on testimonies from people who have been spiritually damaged from new age practices
the whole bible

133   Nathan    
April 27th, 2007 at 6:33 pm

ok, two thing…

1. I think reading up on the subject would actually make them more open to doing real yoga.

2. If they did they whole list you required and still felt ok, would you THEN be ok?

134   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 6:53 pm

Nathan,
You mean, would I think it was okay for them to do it? No. Would I stand outside and holler and scream at them? No.

135   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 6:56 pm

Nathan,
Why would reading on the subject make them more opening to doing yoga?

136   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 6:58 pm

That should be “open” not “opening.”

137   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 27th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

Jeff, thanks, and I agree with your concerns as well.

138   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 8:21 pm

Here is a question about Yoga, if you are truly doing it for the physical then take out the spiritual aspect out of it and just do the stretches. Without some knowledge of the roots of this practices someone can open themselves up a spirituality that could deceive them.
Why try and reach Jesus while doing a practice in which Hindu’s have done for centuries to contact their false gods?
Here is another question, in all the case in the Bible in which a person had an experiance with God was it something that God initiated or the person initiated.
Amy you have done a great job at debating, keep it up.

139   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 8:35 pm

20 years ago I never thought this conversation would be happening among christians. What’s around the corner?
- “Christian” psychics
- “Christian” ouiji boards
- The new hot selling book, The Secret for “Christians” oh never mind we already have that with Word of Faith.

Or hey, when will we have “christian” child porn the bible talks about lust between men and women but nothing about children, right? totally rediculous but my point is we need to hold up a standard here or our faith will be hijacked.

Once again, like Amy said, study the roots of this stuff before you blow off the Watchmen…..

140   amy    
April 27th, 2007 at 9:17 pm

Jeff,
Thanks. More than I can say.

141   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 27th, 2007 at 9:30 pm

Jeff,

Thank you for adding to the slippery slope fallacy.

Amy, so as not to tax the time you don’t seem to have to write anything, please give a simple answer to the four questions you are avoiding:

Amy,

Simply:

1) What body positions/exercises are ontologically evil?

2) Should Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25?

3) Should Christians participate in Marathons or Olympic sports?

4) Should Christians celebrate Easter?

Unless you can answer this in a logical fashion, this IS what Paul is talking about with meat and idols.

In the same way that “weaker” Christians believed superstitiously that demonic activity could occur when people ate meat that is sacrificed to idols, today’s “weaker” Christians see the possibility for demonic activity in the mundane – meditating upon scripture while doing low-impact exercise.

Answer the questions.

142   james    
April 27th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

Jeff said, 1)”Here is a question about Yoga, if you are truly doing it for the physical then take out the spiritual aspect out of it and just do the stretches…Why try and reach Jesus while doing a practice in which Hindu’s have done for centuries to contact their false gods?”

I don’t really like the idea of chanting scriptures while doing yoga either. I wouldn’t forbid it, but I would recommend being very careful.

2)”Without some knowledge of the roots of this practices someone can open themselves up a spirituality that could deceive them.”

Christians should study and understand the risks before they jump into anything. I think some may open themselves to spirits by being in a certain state of mind, not by being in a certain body position.

3)”Once again, like Amy said, study the roots of this stuff before you blow off the Watchmen….. ”

I certainly don’t want to blow you guys off. Thank you for pointing out the origins and possible dangers of yoga. We take your cautions to heart, although, it’s really hard to see how doing certain stretches is any more dangerous than gathering around a Christmas tree.

143   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 27th, 2007 at 10:28 pm

Jeff, Thank you for adding to the slippery slope fallacy.

Chris L., how do you even fit your head through the door…

144   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 27th, 2007 at 11:11 pm

“how do you even fit your head through the door”

hahaha… this coming from god… I mean Ken.

145   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 27th, 2007 at 11:31 pm

Still doesn’t change what I said. If anyone is full of himself it’s Lyons.

146   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 28th, 2007 at 7:53 am

Ken,

Still doesn’t change what I said. If anyone is full of himself it’s Lyons.

Ken, I have no problem admitting when I’m wrong. In the particular exchange you’re referring to, Jeff started running down the slippery slope fallacy to ““christian” child porn”, and a number of other things that wouldn’t pass the tests from either side of this discussion. Classically a slippery slope fallacy (which seems to also be where Amy heads in most discussions, though hers require a bit more thought and may not always be fallacious, as Jeff’s – in this case – were).

Just because you can’t answer anyone’s questions in an honest, forthright manner doesn’t make me (or anyone else here) full of themselves.

[And, for the record, I agree with James' cautions above.]

How about it – answer these four questions or go away:

1) What body positions/exercises are ontologically evil?

2) Should Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25?

3) Should Christians participate in Marathons or Olympic sports?

4) Should Christians celebrate Easter?

If you can’t give a straight answer to simple questions put forth, it shows why your pastoring is so efficacious (not).

147   amy    
April 28th, 2007 at 10:44 am

Slippery slope -

My guess is that some Christians are already here, in their beliefs about yoga, and that many more will get there: from http://extreme-fitness.womens-health-fitness.com/yoga.html
“Yoga is an ancient health-art developed and perfected over the centuries by the Sages and Wise Men of ancient India. Yoga is not a religion, a metaphysical doctrine, or a philosophy.

It is not magic or mysticism, although the amazing improvements it can make in your health, your appearance and your youthfulness may often seem magical, even miraculous. “

148   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 28th, 2007 at 11:26 am

Amy,

Yoga is not a religion. It is not magic. It is not mysticism. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove with a link to a non-Christian site talking about yoga. Where’s the slippery slope that will lead us to “Christian” child porn?

Please answer the questions:

1) What body positions/exercises are ontologically evil?

2) Should Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25?

3) Should Christians participate in Marathons or Olympic sports?

4) Should Christians celebrate Easter?

149   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 28th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

Amy,

any exercize can make amazing improvements in your health, your appearance and your youthfulness! Sometimes it even seems magical. I ran and ate well for 7 months and lost 60 pounds. Was that magical?

For a Christian, you sure give the devil alot of credit for more than he is due.

150   amy    
April 28th, 2007 at 9:13 pm

Chris and Nathan,
I’ve been wondering for quite some time if the divide between our thinking on yoga may be at the root of our differences in how we view “Christian” yoga.

I wasn’t expecting to “prove” anything – but your answers make me wonder if I did. Just to make sure I’m understanding you, are you realizing that this site may be trying to take out ideas that would make yoga distasteful to some Christians. Do you realize that even if that weren’t the goal of this site, that it would influence people to think of yoga as not unconnected to religion, to anything supernatural?

It assures us that “Yoga is not a religion, is not magic, is not mysticism.” Can you look at the wikipedia examples of yoga and say that this is absolutely NOT the case?

151   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 28th, 2007 at 9:30 pm

Amy,

If we are to use your reasoning… we would then not believe in the miracles of Christ as they too look like magic… or that the apostles did miracles as that too did look like magic… just ask Simon the sorcerer who “believed” then wanted to have the ‘power” he has just seen… that is in Acts btw…

So how far are we to take this reasoning…

here in Billings a good Christian man teaches martial arts… he uses the good of the “teachings” of martial arts and then brings in the teachings of Scripture… in that he leads many to Christ through something similar to Yoga…

We are now free in Christ… if we did do Yoga, as it is taught in Hinduism… then i would say it is not “Christian” at all… yet to take the stretching and say that it is evil as it is associated… along with the breathing exercises… is like saying the Olympic Games are Satanic as they are reflective of the Greek Olympics and Emperor worship…

In that there is a bit of discernment, yet as we are told to be as wise as serpents and gentle as doves, it seems that some want to be as gentle as serpents and wise as doves… we are not given a Spirit of fear… and i am not saying that we need to not be careful… but we should also look at ways to redeem those and bring the teachings of Scripture as much as we can… so that they can hear the truth…

Stretching and breathing are not sins… searching for enlightenment in any form outside of Christ alone is…

Blessings,
iggy

152   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 28th, 2007 at 9:57 pm

good post iggy,

Sorry Chris L for the “slippery slope”.

Why is it that we has Christian have to take an ancient Hindu/ Buddhist spiritual (oh btw it is good for our physical well being) practice and slap Jesus on it and call it good?
I understand Christian Liberty, I am not a fundamentalist Baptists who believes that drinking a beer will send you to Hell. However, as Christians we need to be cautious with spiritual practices from pagan religions. Doing the physical exercise that is found in yoga is not wrong, I think adding a spiritual dimension to it could result in possible deception, especially for the unlearned naive Christian.
I know that the EmChurch wants to engage culture but the truth of the matter is we are supposed to be set apart from the world.
Guys from this site and others need to find a way to find middle ground with CRN and CRN needs to find a way not to nitpick with everything in the “dicernment” arena. I visit that site often but really got ticked when I started to see posts where they were questioning the salvation of others. I think CRN might want to take a step back and evaluate which battles to fight otherwise they could start to lose their faithful.

God Bless all, won’t it be fun someday to be in heaven watch Chris L and Ken bickering and arguing over stuff? God will put their Mansions right next to one another. HAHA

153   amy    
April 28th, 2007 at 10:09 pm

Iggy,
Regarding your first paragraph, I’m not saying that yoga looks like magic, I’m saying that I believe it is a form of magic, of the kind described in Rev 21:8; 22:15.

And what I’m saying has nothing to do with Jesus or the disciple’s miracles.

It’s interesting how Christians readily talk about “worshipping God with your whole body,” yet so many are ready to call the physical side of this Hindu form of worship – magic -mysticism simply “stretching.”

154   amy    
April 28th, 2007 at 10:16 pm

I just can’t imagine how if I had ever in my life participated in yoga with any understanding of what it was about on a spiritual level, I could even think of “redeeming” it into something Christian.

155   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 28th, 2007 at 10:30 pm

Amy,

You missed the point…

How is stretching and breathing Satanic… and how do they fulfill you scripture references…

Do you realize that the word “sorcerer” or the phrase “those who practice magic arts” comes from the same word for Pharmacy? And to hold the view you do means that one who takes prescription drugs is in sin?

We need to not pick and choose our views and infuse them into scripture but let scripture speak for itself… if you take that phrase in the Book of Rev and reference it to Simon the sorcerer in Acts you will get a picture of what the Bible is talking about…

Do you then also believe that I being a diabetic, am in sin for taking insulin?

That is where your logic is going… and if you believe that… I am sure there are some Watchtowers you can hand out…

(That was meant in humor not in any way to mean you are not an intelligent person… you are and that is what i am truly stating… that you intelligently work through your logic to see if it holds up to scripture or is just a view you have)

Blessings,
iggy

156   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 12:20 am

Jeff,

Why is it that we has Christian have to take an ancient Hindu/ Buddhist spiritual (oh btw it is good for our physical well being) practice and slap Jesus on it and call it good?

Jeff – I go back further than whatever Hindus/Buddhists believe. I do believe that God meant us to be good stewards of all we have been given – starting with the only thing we keep our entire lives – our body.

Exercise and meditation both are things that come from God. By taking them and woshipping something/someone other than God, H/B’s have twisted something good given by god. I don’t see “Christian yoga” as borrowing something from Hindus/Buddhists – I see it as taking something back that wasn’t theirs to begin with.

I know a number of people who take martials arts for self-protection – and have had to use it. Almost every martial art I am familiar was, at some point, used in Shinto or other oriental religions, yet I don’t hear cries for closing local dojos from the church.

I do think that getting involved with yoga could be a dangerous thing, particularly if it is not led by a Christian with Christian meditation (if any meditation is included).

As for putting my mansion and Ken’s next to each other, I wouldn’t mind. Actually, the picture Jesus had in mind was not the KJV “mansions”, but insular rooms all built together into the same house (as per the wedding customs of the Galilee region). So – whether we like it or not – and I, for one, love the idea – we will all live in the same house with many rooms built into it…

157   amy    
April 29th, 2007 at 7:25 am

Iggy and Chris,
Iggy,
No, I didn’t miss the point. I’m not talking about “stretching” and “breathing.” I’m talking about yoga. oga is much more than “stretching” and “breathing.”

Reread my April 28 10:44AM and my 9:13 PM comments. My point is that yoga has been and is an aspect of religion(s), especially Hinduism. I believe it is magic, and it is mysticism.

And the point of my first comment is that Christians have already and will be arriving at the point where they aren’t just talking about “Christian” yoga, but that yoga itself will be defanged and made pallatable.

Which is exactly what you, Nathan, and Chris seem to be doing.

I could go to some Wiccan ceremony and take all the “parts” out of it and say, “This is not Satanic, and this is not satanic, and this is not satanic. Therefore let’s start having Wiccan ceremonies in church because they can’t possibly be Satanic.” We’ll call it “Christian” Wicca. I could popularize the idea that “We’re just “taking back” what “they” stole in the first place.”

Is yoga really, at root, about “stretching,” or is it about aligning the “chakra’s” of one’s body? “Breathing” sounds so innocent. What is the purpose of learning breathing techniques in yoga?

Chris said,
“Exercise and meditation both are things that come from God. By taking them and worshipping something/someone other than God, H/B’s have twisted something good given by god. I don’t see “Christian yoga” as borrowing something from Hindus/Buddhists – I see it as taking something back that wasn’t theirs to begin with.”

If you’re willing to something that you would have to have been around thousands of years ago to prove, it seems like you would at least be willing to consider many scriptures that could apply to this that are there plainly before you when you open your Bible.

Exercise and meditation are good. Breathing is good. They were given by God. Yoga is a very specific way of meditating and exercising and breathing, that as far as we know, was created by Hindus, with goals that honor Satan, not God. Why must we copy it?

Sex is also very good, and can honor God. Do you want to investigate all that Hindus have done with sex, specifically how they use sex to honor god in worship; and, at least in the past, sex with children? Why don’t we “Christianize” what they’ve done? We could have married couples, instead of temple prostitues and priests carry out their “holy rituals” in different rooms of the church on Sunday. We could have old men “dancing innocently” with young girls, instead of doing what they did in the past?

Why don’t we even come up with a Christian form of “suttee?” Maybe this idea is also one that we need to “take back.” Christian wives could symbolically “bury” themselves in a coffin, while at their husbands graveside. I can think of all kind of health benefits of being able to rest in a coffin at a funeral, especially if my body were properly aligned. It could be very spiritual as well – I could think a lot about “dying to self.”

Another point: I have only skimmed some articles that talk about why some Hindu’s don’t like what is being done with yoga. My guess is that, in their world view, the physical/mental/spiritual aspects of it CAN’T be separtated.

You can get all sorts of “enlightment” by reading from yoga sites. http://occult-advances.org/nc-spi-kundalini-energy.shtml

You can even learn that the god Shiva, the Holy Spirit, and the Shekinah are all illuminators. “According to Hindu teachings, this is where the male part of the god Shiva brings about illumination, which is the same as the Holy Spirit illuminating the soul of man or the Shekinah that flashed in the Most Holy Place of the tabernacle.”

Here’s a general argument on Hinduism that shows generally how yoga fits into their religion.http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2003/10-12/44-49_four_sects.shtml

I’m not execting you to be interested in reading these, but someone else might.

158   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 7:34 am

Chris L said

“I know a number of people who take martials arts for self-protection – and have had to use it. Almost every martial art I am familiar was, at some point, used in Shinto or other oriental religions, yet I don’t hear cries for closing local dojos from the church.”

That is because it is set apart from Christian in a spiritual sense. Open up a Christian martial arts class and you will see the watchdogs start to complain. The concern is the acceptance of the historic pagan concepts infiltrating Christianity.

One thing I think I think is lost in all this is that many of watchdogs have a biblical world view that there is going to be great deception in the last days, even among Gods elect.

Our Christian faith is set apart from all others and the Bible indicates that in the last days there will be a mixing of religion into one with a one world government. The Watchdogs see that Christians seems to disregard this.

I know under the Brian McClaren form of Spirituality the last days concept is overblown but I think this is where we have a great divide. I like what the watchdogs do in the sense of keeping me up on the latest Christian trends, they do go overboard with their critizm but I understand that and consider it when I am reading their material.

159   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 7:45 am

Amy,

I value your comments.

Everyone,

Here is a link with audio of Rob Bell taking bleathing(very innocent) twisting scripture and convincing his crowd that we actually breathe in God. This is the occult/pagan view of God not the Christian view. It’s this type of thing that the dawgs are concerned with.

Chris L.

You mean that you don’t see the KJV as the”AUTHORIZED” word of God? hahaha

160   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 7:45 am

http://blogs.echurchnetwork.net/Newsletter/permalink/00003.aspx

Here is the link sorry

161   jonbean    
April 29th, 2007 at 8:23 am

So if martial arts are ok as long as they are not called Christian martial arts, then yoga is ok as long as it’s not Christian yoga? I guess I finally get what Amy and Jeff are saying. Don’t call it yoga, they can’t get past it. If you just said we are having a Stretching class at church, everything would be just peachy.
What they seem to really be missing despite all the assurances to the contrary is that, what we would call Christian yoga is or at least should be stretches done while thinking about God and his word. I’m sorry but I just can’t see how that could be wrong in any way. If that is wrong than I need to be careful where and how I think about God and his word. I might be worshiping or at least allowing Satan to have influence while I read the Christmas Story to my son Christmas morning.

162   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 9:11 am

No, it’s not OK at all, I am saying the reason why watchdogs say anything about it is because it is coming into Chrisitanity. Thanks Jonbean for reading what I said without reading what I said….Deception is not going to slap you in the face and say “I AM DECEPTION”. Watchdogs are trying defending the orthodox faith they are not trying to go into other religions and practices and tell them they are wrong. They are trying to keep the garbage out……

163   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 11:24 am

Amy,

Your comments about yoga being “magic” fit completely with my attribution of this as a ‘weaker’ Christian position which, in the first century believed that evil spirits would enter the body through eating meat sacrificed to idols (because it was a “magical” transferrence).

Amy, you wrote:

If you’re willing to something that you would have to have been around thousands of years ago to prove, it seems like you would at least be willing to consider many scriptures that could apply to this that are there plainly before you when you open your Bible.

And which scriptures are those? Other than the “high places” reference which is, at best a tertiary transferrence of modern context where no similar context existed when it was written, I’ve not seen you quote any scripture that is “plainly before you”.

Until you answer the 4 questions above in some sort of consistent manner, you have zero credibility in this issue – other than your “gut feel”.

Jeff,

I’ve listened to that sermon of Rob’s a couple of times, and that is not what he says. Spirit (pneuma (gr) and ruach (hb)) both have a double meaning of spirit and breath. When God breathed His spirit into the dust to form us, it created a picture that is self-evident to the Hebrews who first recorded the scriptures. Rob only reiterated that picture in this particular semon.

164   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 11:42 am

Jeff,

You also wrote:

Our Christian faith is set apart from all others and the Bible indicates that in the last days there will be a mixing of religion into one with a one world government. The Watchdogs see that Christians seems to disregard this.

I take a partial-preterist view, which sees many of the events of the first and early second centuries fulfilling a number of the “end times” prophecies (though I, of course, believe that not all have come to fruition).

I happen to believe that it is far more dangerous to bring eschatology into orthopraxy, which creates a great deal of misplaced fatalism, and detracts from what we were actually called to do and to be.

You ask:

Why is it that we has Christian have to take an ancient Hindu/ Buddhist spiritual (oh btw it is good for our physical well being) practice and slap Jesus on it and call it good?

Why must Christians avoid taking two things created by God (exercise, meditation) and combining them in a way that honors God, just because they first observed pagans combining them in a way that dishonored God? It is not the activity, itself, that is ontologically “evil” (or “magic”), but the manner in which the pagans used it.

All of the arguments about pagan sexual practice, child pornography, etc, are truly “slippery slope fallicies”, because each of the things mentioned are actually prohibited in scripture (or easily proven to do so).

This is truly a case of Christian liberty, where I do believe that the stronger brothers (those who see that this combination of exercise and Christian meditation is clearly not ontologically evil) do need to have some sensitivity toward the weaker brothers (who see such combination of God-given in a superstitious light). But, at some point, the weaker brothers have the responsibility to no longer be the weaker brothers…

Since Amy and Ken can’t/won’t answer the questions put forward a number of times by a number of individuals, perhaps you will:

1) What body positions/exercises are ontologically evil?

2) Should Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25?

3) Should Christians participate in Marathons or Olympic sports?

4) Should Christians celebrate Easter?

165   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 29th, 2007 at 12:07 pm

I’ve been gone for 24 hours, and with a little bit of perspective I have to say:

The fact that we’re having this detailed a conversation about this topic is simply moronic.

166   jonbean    
April 29th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Jeff, you are right that deception will not slap you in the face and say ” I am deception” but in the same light, it’s possible to see deception where it doesn’t exist. It seems to me that a group of people who meet to exercise and talk about God is pretty straightforward. Now at the same time, if they are saying that the way to connect with God is to align our bodies in a certain way, that would be deception. Is that what happens at “Christian yoga” gatherings? Maybe at some, but certainly not at all and maybe not even at most. We should be kind and discerning enough not to assume things that we don’t know for sure. If our discernment is based on what other people say about things, it’s not discernment but simply reacting to what our friends or aquaintances have said, and that doesn’t pass the test of discernment. Nobody has answered the four very pertinent questions posed here and I think they have not been answered because they aren’t quite so neat and tidy to dismiss as the yoga thing. It’s one thing to say that yoga is evil in any form but it’s another to apply that point of view completely consistently and give up Christmas trees and Olympics. Jeff, I’m sorry that my previous comment was so irritable. Hopefully my perspective is presented in a more appropriate manner in this comment.

167   Matt    
April 29th, 2007 at 12:30 pm

I just think it’s interesting that it appears that Chris P, Ken Silva, Amy, and now Jeff can’t take us up on the challenge to answer these questions. If Chris P, Ken Silva, Amy, and Jeff truly believe that the Bible is sufficient, at least answer each of these questions using the Word.

1) What body positions/exercises are ontologically evil?

2) Should Christians celebrate Christ’s birth on December 25?

3) Should Christians participate in Marathons or Olympic sports?

4) Should Christians celebrate Easter?

168   Jeff    http://jboldt73.blogspot.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 2:47 pm

Matt,
Don’t lump me in with anyone, I have a personal stance on this issue, that is all, I was never asked those questions. They were specifically asked of Amy……
There are a lot of things that Ken and his group do that I don’t align with and there are things that the emergent camp does that I do align with.

This issue I think it Christians need be very careful, it sounds like a lot of you don’t take this issue flipently. My concern is the blurring of the lines between historic pagen practices and beliefs and Christianity. We need not mix our unique spirituality with others out there.

169   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 2:58 pm

Just as an FYI, I have been praying for awhile that God might bring a scripture to me in study that would help in making this issue more clear to me, even if it would be opposed to my view to this point. During a sermon this afternoon, this scripture was used and I nearly jumped when I heard it. Here is Paul writing to Timothy, still dealing, in part, with the issue of meat sacrificed to idols (a big issue in Ephesus):

The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

If you point these things out to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, brought up in the truths of the faith and of the good teaching that you have followed. Have nothing to do with godless myths and old wives’ tales; rather, train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come. (I Timothy 4:1-8)

In this particular case, physical exercise and meditation – both of which are from God, and therefore, good – should not be “rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.”

170   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 29th, 2007 at 3:44 pm

Yoga was developed by pagan Hindus worshipping demons and meditation was developed in Buddhism, Sufi Islam and Hinduism, both Yoga and mediation have been then “borrowed” from those pagan religions in an attempt to “Christianize” them.

These religious disciplines, which were not practiced by Judaism, Jesus or His Apostles, were NOT created by God and are therefore NOT to be received by Christians – period. On the other hand, celebrating days, foods, etc. fall into the above Scripture, but certainly NOT the “spiritual disciplines” created with the help of demons in pagan religions.

171   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 3:54 pm

Ken,

Meditation was developed by Jews in the Old Testament. As you, yourself said early on, physical sport (in some form) has origins beyond documentation. Your quotation from the Book of Ken (or is it 2 Opinions 3:2?) above doesn’t hold a candle to 1 Timothy.

Sorry Ken, you’re all wet (yet again)

172   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 3:56 pm

Just to be clear – Christian yoga is not really “yoga” (in its Hindu root form as some define) – It is physical stretching exercise, literally “consecrated by the Word of God and prayer”.

173   amy    
April 29th, 2007 at 4:49 pm

Chris,
I know plenty of people who won’t do martial arts. One of my sons is very athletic and would be great at it and has expressed an interest in it. We’ve decided against it and he’s fine with that – he has plenty of other athletic, exciting activities.

174   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 29th, 2007 at 5:54 pm

Ken, I though God created EVERYTHING and it was good. Are you saying that people can create outside of God? If you had said that people took yoga and perverted it, I might agree with you, but to say that God didn’t create something that exists seems to give credit where it isn’t due.

Amy, I respect your opinion and I don’t have a problem if you want to asbtain from something because of your concerns but I have to decide for myself what things are okay (with my husband). I try not to base my discernment on fear but rather on faith.

175   amy    
April 29th, 2007 at 6:18 pm

Chris,
You asked, “Which scriptures are those?” I already stated on here somewhere the idea of “why keep bringing up scripture?” It won’t get much attention, it will be explained differently. Maybe there has been some time when some scripture I’ve brought up hasn’t been viewed extremely differently, I can’t recall any at this point .

You asked me why I kept “harping” on the high places, the second time I brought it up I believe. You focused on worship being moved to Jerusalem, instead of on the fact that some of the high place were where the Canaanites worshipped “other gods.” You claim that yoga isn’t worship. So you effectively give yourself justification for not having to consider how the passage applies at all.

In this thread, I brought up, Rev 21:8; 22:15 and you replied,
“Your comments about yoga being “magic” fit completely with my attribution of this as a ‘weaker’ Christian position which, in the first century believed that evil spirits would enter the body through eating meat sacrificed to idols.”

In one fell swoop you did away with that scripture.

We can know from scripture that the action of eating the meat bought from the marketplace was not the same as eating the meat during a pagan ceremony. See I Cor 10: 20-22. Go ahead and decide that participating in yoga is the same as eating meat from the market – a question of weak and strong. I would rather not assume that. I think it is more likely that it is like eating meat during the pagan ceremony, whether that participation be intentional or unintentional. I would rather take the chance of being wrong in my discernment and not be “drinking the cup of demons” and “arousing the Lord’s jealousy.”

Are people to whom the Holy Spirit says “flee!” through scriptures as well as “the still small voice,” obedient to God, or are they always “weaker” brothers? Does every decision made by other Christians that is stricter than yours mean that that issue was a weaker/stronger brother issue? Are some people putting things into the weaker/stronger category that don’t belong there?

I have NOTHING to lose by holding firm to the convictions I have. I have NOTHING to lose by considering that yoga is the practicing of a magic art, (and idolatry as well). Revelation 21:8. . . . those who practice magic arts, the idolaters . . . will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

We should hang our heads in shame for considering yoga as something okay, instead of looking up at Jesus and saying, “Hi Jesus, I’m getting really healthy and happy and spiritually fulfilled practicing this magic art down here! Hope you don’t mind!” or “Hi, Jesus! Look at me! I’m busy redefining magic art down here!”

What could I say is “magic” today – both here and abroad – without you saying that I am in the “weaker” brother position, and that my beliefs are superstition? What was John talking about in Revelation? How does it apply today? How can the verse in Deut 18:10 apply today?

What other scriptures apply? Many parts of the whole Bible focus on being separated to God, loyal to Him, focused on the idea that He is the one and only God. False religions are not to be toyed with. Indeed the wise Solomon ignored that principle and married pagan wives and was led astray. The Bible talks about staying away from magic, fleeing the devil, not calling evil good, and yes, being discerning.

I believe that the Holy Spirit lives in me and convicts me of what is right and wrong. Yes, I can make mistakes about what is His voice and what is my own thinking. But I have a lot of scripture that I believe applies to this -and I believe that my belief is not just based on my reasoning, but through the conviction of the Holy Spirit.
_____
Let’s suppose that this were a weaker/stronger issue. Many are being led astray by meditative techniques into thinking that they have met the DIVINE BEING, and for some people yoga is a part of this. Maybe a huge part. What is the emphasis in the weaker/stronger passage – is it on WHO is weaker and stronger, or is it on what it means to be a brother?

In this passage we see that, “Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.” (I Cor 10:24) . And, “So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God.” (I Cor. 10:32)

May we add to the “Jews, Greeks” list “Hindus and other people practicing yoga as a way of meeting the divine.” Now they can see that even Christians view it as “good.” Now, when they read about people honoring Jesus through yoga, when they have a vision of “Jesus” when their mind is emptied and their body properly aligned, they will be assured that yes, they have even met the Christian God. He will be a “Jesus” that happily joins their other gods, content to be one of the many, not the “only way” Jesus.

176   amy    
April 29th, 2007 at 6:23 pm

Deborah,
We all need to make our own decisions, and we all need to be able to communicate why we believe what we do.

I don’t consider my decision one of fear, but of faith. I absolutely know that God is stronger than Satan. I also know that He is a God who wants my obedience, and through his help, I’m trying to be obedient.

177   amy    
April 29th, 2007 at 6:40 pm

“The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, –

(AND ENCOURAGE THEM NOT TO BE AFRAID TO PARTICIPATE IN PRACTICES WHICH ENCOURAGE EMPTYING THE MIND SO IT CAN BE ONE WITH THE DIVINE WHICH IS NOT DIVINE – (insert by me, not the Word of God) —

which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth. For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.

“For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.”

Chris,
You said, to Ken, ” Meditation was developed by Jews in the Old Testament. As you, yourself said early on, physical sport (in some form) has origins beyond documentation. Your quotation from the Book of Ken (or is it 2 Opinions 3:2?) above doesn’t hold a candle to 1 Timothy.

Sorry Ken, you’re all wet (yet again)”

What can I say? You focus on the jot and tittles and ignore the overall emphasis of scripture, and the overall nature of yoga.

“Meditation” that was approved of by God for the Jews could not have been like the “meditation” of today which empties the mind and allows spirits to enter.

178   amy    
April 29th, 2007 at 6:42 pm

Jeff,
I watched the breathing/yoga video by Rob Bell; it disturbed me a lot.

179   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 29th, 2007 at 6:43 pm

The Jews did NOT mediate such as that found in Hinduism and Buddhism, which us where “Christian” meditation comes from. Read Tony Jones’ “The Sacred Way” and he’ll explain to you – it comes from apostate Desert Fathers and Mothers “Christianizing” pagan meditation. Do you seriously think Christ did the idotic things Richard Foster teaches. Please.

“I though God created EVERYTHING and it was good. ”

Are you sure you want to own that? So God created Baal worship? God created Hinduism? God created Buddhism? God created Islam? God created Satanism?

180   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 29th, 2007 at 6:51 pm

“Are you sure you want to own that? So God created Baal worship? God created Hinduism? God created Buddhism? God created Islam? God created Satanism?”

If you are from a reformed tradition (which you aren’t… I guess), God did ordain them.

I thought I might throw some fuel on this already ridiculously huge fire :)

181   Neil    
April 29th, 2007 at 6:54 pm

Are certain postures pagan ontologically, or because pagans use them? Just trying to understand your position (no pun intended)?

What difference does it make if an activity is tied to a culture?

I asked these two rather elementary question oh so long ago. I wish, instead offering anecdote after anecdote and “what about” after “what about” – someone would simply answer the questions that have been asked.

Neil

182   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
April 29th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

answering questions might lead to answers different than what they believe. Not answering the questions keeps the argument on their terms. However, it pretty much just shows that they are unwilling to accept the truth.

183   amy    
April 29th, 2007 at 7:33 pm

I wrote a comment about the unanswered questions about an hour ago but accidentally deleted it:

It went something like this:
Regarding all the unanswered questions, do you realize how many more questions could be added to the list, with some research. Questions such as, “Do you say “Gesundheit” when someone sneezes?”

What is the purpose of the questions? I doubt that any of you are concerned for my well being if I celebrate Christmas on Dec 25. If I answer the questions in a way that satisfies someone, there will be more questions from someone else, such as questions of the type relating to bar songs. The goal of the questions is not because you’re concerned about someone’s well-being but because you think that having answers to those questions could make all the con-yoga statements invalid.

I’m sure there are exceptions in the reasons why people ask questions, and I don’t mean to lump all the questions that have been asked and remained unanswered as questions that I view as I have described above. I can think of some that most likely weren’t intended that way at all. The sad thing is that having so many of the questions meant to “trick” and “prove the other person wrong” makes a person tend to want to stay away from legitimate questions as well.

I am concerned about people’s spiritual well-being who participate in yoga. Whether you agree that my concern is legitimate, please be honest and consider if your questions come from a concern about someone’s spiritual well-being or a way of avoiding the issue at hand, or a way of being the winner of an argument.

What is the truth that I am trying to avoid, Nathan? That everything, including Buddhism, Hinduism, Satanism, is created by God? That a Christian should not stay away from pagan activity? That a Christian should err on the side of not giving Satan too much credit, instead of giving him any credit?
That yoga has nothing to do with religion, magic, mysticism?

184   Virginia    
April 29th, 2007 at 8:20 pm

Regarding the High Places:

Isa 36:7 But if thou say unto me, We trust in Jehovah our God: is not that he, whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath taken away, and hath said to Judah and to Jerusalem, Ye shall worship before this altar?

And said to Judah and Jerusalem – He had commanded them to worship only in Jerusalem, at the temple. This was in strict accordance with the law of Moses. Barnes

The Hebrew word for alter is Meso Beoch. The Meso Beoch is the most important picture for Christ in scripture. Blood atonement was made upon the Meso Beoch.

High places in hebrew is Bemoat; Hezekiah had taken the high places away; Blood atonement was made upon the Meso Beoch.

Idolatry doesn’t begin by the worship of other gods, idolatry begins by worshipping the true god in unbiblical ways. Israel began their idolatry by worshipping Jehovah at some other alien high place; not by worshipping baal or molech but by worshipping not according to Jehovah’s commands.

The hebrew term for idolatry is not worshipping idols it is ‘avoda zara’, which simply means a form of worship which is alien to scripture.

There is in Leviticus the account of strange fire; they were burning the fire to Jehovah but in an alien way, not according to scripture:

Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took each of them his censer, and put fire therein, and laid incense thereon, and offered strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them.

The term for unbiblical worship and the term for idolatry is the same term. Once you begin to worship the true God in an unbiblical way you will end up in idolatry. It is the path that gets you there; it’s inevitable.

Regarding Another Jesus:

Another example is the hebrew word for husband, master and owner which is ‘Bal’. Jehovah was Israel’s Bal. The Canaanites had their Bal. They had their god with the same name. If you begin to worship the true god in an unbiblical way another god gives a counterfeit.

Hezekiah realised this and he tore the high places down.

Notes taken from a sermon called ‘The attack on the Remnant” by Yakov J Prasch of Moriel Ministries.

185   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 29th, 2007 at 8:32 pm

Um Ken,

“In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty…And God said…. God saw all that he had made, and it was very good.” Genesis chapter 1.

Yes, I’ll own that God created everything and that it was all good. I’m surprised that you don’t hold to the account of creation as told in the Bible. Like I said, if you had said that yoga had been perverted I wouldn’t have had a problem with what you said, but you gave man (and demons) the power of creation, and that only belongs to God. Does that make you a man-lover?

deborah

186   Matt    
April 29th, 2007 at 8:35 pm

Amy-

I am concerned that fundamentalists are adding to unnecessary rules to Christianity. It is a spiritual concern. I have a close friend who first came out of the Catholic Church, then converted to protestant fundamentalist. She constantly struggles with feelings of guilt because she doesn’t think God loves her. That is from both her Catholic and her fundamentalist background. And she is one of the most godly women I know. I have to constantly remind her that God loves her. That’s a shame. This is the spiritual damage that the Catholic and fundamentalist churches have done to her. End of story.

Please answer our questions. Don’t be a wuss.

187   Matt    
April 29th, 2007 at 8:39 pm

Amy-

I think some fundamentalist churches are as dangerous as Hinduism/Islam/etc. Fundamentalism can do as much spiritual damage as any cult/false religion.

188   Neil    
April 29th, 2007 at 8:45 pm

OK – obviously bantering hypothetical scenarios is more likable than discussing spiritual realities – I guess I’ll wait until another subject comes up later.

Neil

189   Neil    
April 29th, 2007 at 8:50 pm

Then again – it’s worth understanding…

Are certain postures ontologically evil?
Are certain postures associatively evil?
(If they are evil, these are the only two choices available)

Neil

190   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 29th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

Amy,

The questions are not a “trick” – they get to the heart of the matter. If the yardstick for “what is acceptable” is “we, as Christians, cannot do anything that seems to have pagan roots” (which you have written in umpteen different ways), then why are some “ex-pagan” practices OK, and others are not? What is the dividing line.

Yoga – as practiced by Christians (and most non-Christians at the local health club) is not “magic” or even Hindu. The reason the Hindus have reacted the way they have about what has been done with yoga (removing the Hindu aspects) is understandable, because it is no longer “yoga” as they understand it.

What Christians have done is kept the exercises, but replaced what was pagan with the Word of God and prayer. Just like we have done with Christmas. Just like we have done with Easter. Just like my local Tae Kwon Do dojo, which has a Christian blackbelt teaching it.

It’s sad to see that you are not discerning but judgemental:

We should hang our heads in shame for considering yoga as something okay, instead of looking up at Jesus and saying, “Hi Jesus, I’m getting really healthy and happy and spiritually fulfilled practicing this magic art down here! Hope you don’t mind!” or “Hi, Jesus! Look at me! I’m busy redefining magic art down here!”

Please – nobody is doing this, but in your – and Ken’s – (quite vivid) imagination. Nobody is asking you to participate – just that you drop the legalistic condemnation. It is a sickening form of modern gnosticism.

Ken knows nothing about the origins of meditation – which is much older than the “desert fathers”. We can see it in the psalms and other OT scriptures, which are almost a millenia older than those “desert fathers” who Kenn so loves to scorn.

By your not answering the questions, you prove in your non-answer that the “logic” you have used is invalid – because it is so easily disproven. All good things were created by God, indeed, though some were later twisted. When we reclaim these, in the power of Jesus, we are exercising freedom given by him.

“For everything God created is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, because it is consecrated by the word of God and prayer.”

“For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”

“To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.”

Why are the “high places” passages irrelevant? Because God commanded that he could only be worshiped through sacrifice in the Temple – a direct commandment. Any place else was a sin. It’s the same reason that your slippery slope arguments of defining actual sin (pornography, divination, etc.) are fallacious – they fail the test of scripture directly. You, on the other hand, have created an extra-Biblical test (”if it came from a pagan practice, it can’t be redeemed for good”), which rules out even using the common names for the days of the week. This is why I care about both the overarching context AND the jots and tittles, and I don’t sit idly by while folks just make up new Biblical text based on their “gut feel”.

If you cannot answer the questions put forward regarding Christmas, Easter, running, Olympics, and even the days of the week in a manner that is consistent with your condescension (if not condemnation) of Christians acting in good conscience, blending prayer and meditation into their physical exercise, then your actions are unwarranted.

Personally, I will never be involved with Christian yoga, not because I think it’s wrong, but because I am not interested. However, I’m not going to sit by and let Ken, you, and others slander those Christians who do as somehow “legitimizing” pagan magic. It is just not so.

Can you answer the questions? I don’t think so.

191   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 29th, 2007 at 9:13 pm

deborah,

“Yes, I’ll own that God created everything and that it was all good.” You can’t be serious. You think God Himself created pagan religions and they “were” good? At what point did these pagan religions and other paths to Him that He allegedly created stop being good? Can these other paths and paga religious systems God supposedly created still lead to Him? Yikes.

192   Neil    
April 29th, 2007 at 9:20 pm

I get frustrated at discussions that skip past the spiritual/biblical realities and head straight to the anecdotal “What about…’s”

For example – every time I’m in a discussion on the possibility of losing your salvation someone says “Yeah – but I knew a guy who…”

OR

Whenever I talk about the uniqueness of Christ someone asks, “Yeah, well what about the guy who never heard…”

We do not determine our theology by anecdotal “What about…’s” – we determine our theology by the study of Scripture and reality and then apply that to scenarios.

So, regardless of what anyone thinks about my questions – BEFORE any stories or scenarios or situations are bantered about – before all this lies the reality in which these stories function.

SO – in reality;
Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?
Are certain postures/positions associatively evil?

These questions must be answered (and whether or not you tell us, you have decided if you take a stand) before we start talking application.

Interpretation must proceed application – Please!

Neil

193   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 29th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

Chris L. knows nothing about the origins of meditation – which was developed by the “desert fathers” from their interactions with pagan religions who were themselves quite obviously not meditating (as in ruminating about) the Scriptures.

What we can see in the psalms and other OT scriptures, which are almost a millenia older than those “desert fathers,” is not the sessions of “contemplative prayer” they were doing. Sorry about that but the Kenn that Chris loves to scorn apparently knows more about this subject than he does.

194   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 29th, 2007 at 10:39 pm

Ken, why do you refuse to answer Neil’s questions? Do you feel they’re not addressed to you?

If so:

Ken Silva, Pastor-teacher, president of Apprising ministries and editor of Christian Research Network (dot com), please answer these questions:

Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?
Are certain postures/positions associatively evil?

Thank you.

195   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
April 30th, 2007 at 6:23 am

Ken, nice try but not what I said. Again.

196   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 7:04 am

“Now Isaac had come from Beer Lahai Roi, for he was living in the Negev. He went out to the field one evening to meditate, and as he looked up, he saw camels approaching.” (Genesis 24:62)

I wonder how Isaac meditated, since scripture wasn’t recorded until Moses came along?

“Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.” (Joshua 1:8)

“Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.

But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night. ” (Psalm 1:1-2)

“I will remember the deeds of the LORD;
yes, I will remember your miracles of long ago.

I will meditate on all your works
and consider all your mighty deeds. ” (Psalm 77:11-12)

This is the kind of meditation I have seen Christians yoga participants use – prayer and scripture – meditation upon the words of the Lord, His works and His mighty deeds.

This predates the “desert fathers” by more than a millennia.

197   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 7:31 am

So, if I understand Ken correctly…

Meditation on Scripture – good
Contemplation on Scripture – bad

Neil

198   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 7:43 am

Ken, Amy, Chris P. et al;

I understand most of our exchanges are regrettably rather hostile. Therefore I understand the hesitancy to answer a question since it may be a trap.

That is not my point at all.

Before we start saying certain posture/positions are evil, or certain behaviors are pagan we must answer the question “What makes something pagan?”

Before we start proposing all sorts of scenarios of application we must first answer the underlying questions regarding truth apart from our experiences.

If you believe certain positions are evil by there very nature – fine… please just say so and tell me why you believe this.

If you believe certain positions are evil because it’s what Hindus do – fine… please just say so and tell me why you believe this.

Again, it’s not a trap, just an attempt to understand how you determine what is Pagan/evil and what is not. Then we can discuss with a stringer mutual understanding.

Neil

199   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 8:40 am

Neil,

“Meditation on Scripture – good
Contemplation on Scripture – bad”

That sums it up… Ken is upset with some that have a larger vocabulary.

Really, I have asked this many times as people Ken quotes at CRN like Tozer believed in Christian Mysticism and contemplation… I have a book and sermons and quotes… yet Ken still seems to hold to this concept as it fits his personal view and doctrinal bent as he can attack “emergents” better…

It is a bit two faced, but it seems Ken as many… things he uses as tools to abuse… instead of edify the Body.

Blessings,
iggy

200   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 9:17 am

Whether I agree or disagree with the conclusions is made all the harder when fundamental presuppositions go undefined. basically, I’m just trying to get someone to say what their foundational presuppositions are…

Neil

201   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 10:13 am

Neil,

Then that means they will have to be accountable for what they say… to leave it wide open and undefined… leaves room for them to say, “I didn’t mean that, your adding words to my mouth.”

That is why when one calls Ken on this he gets mean and nasty, as I think he know this to be true… it backs him into a corner and he cannot justify it so bites back like a rabid dog…

Even though they want those definitions as sharply defined as can be by others…

Blessings,
iggy

202   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 10:38 am

Iggy,

That may be true. On the other hand, I tend to believe there is a different underlying reason. Obviously Ken and Chris P. firmly believe they occupy the high ground. And in many ways it is much easier to prohibit than to permit. They may want to just keep from taking a position, but I do not think this the motivation for not answering.

I believe they (all three) cannot answer the questions because they know that certain posture/positions are not ontologically evil. Therefore, if they are evil (which they have stated to be) they must be through some biblical declaration or pagan association. Since the Bible is silent on positions/postures, then they must be evil based on their association with pagan/Hindu practices.

But, if the latter is the case, then all you need to do is remove them from the association and they return to a neutral position on a good/evil continuum. If you deny that they return, then you are saying once a pagan does something, that thing becomes pagan… ontologically.

The Christmas tree is the perfect example of something we have all disassociated from paganism. Precious few Christian would see it as fixed in its paganism due to use.

Ya know, now that I have put all this in writing I see, probably their refusal to answer the questions is due to the logical conclusion the answers would take them to…

Neil

203   Matt    
April 30th, 2007 at 10:50 am

Here is a “body position” that offends us in the west. If someone gives you the middle finger, we get offended. However, the middle finger is not really evil, nor is showing the middle finger evil. It is wrong because of it’s intent in our culture.

Go to another culture and if we were to test this, we could show someone our middle finger and they’d just ignore it. It has no meaning for them.

204   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 11:25 am

Matt,

That is a great example – a gesture into which we have poured meaning… and the meaning could be removed as well.

Question is, at what point does a meaning change then? Can the general culture or subculture remove a meaning from something – such as a gesture or symbol? If so, how? If not, why not?

Neil

205   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 12:38 pm

Neil,
You keep asking, “Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?” as if a “no” answer to that from one who is concerned about Christians practicing yoga would negate everything else they’ve said.

I think that a more appropriate question is this, “How can Christians who don’t recognize yoga for what it is in the first place separate it into parts that are evil and parts that aren’t?”

“Yoga is not a religion. It is not magic. It is not mysticism.” (Chris L) He also said it isn’t worship, as did Nathan.

“The fact that we’re having this detailed a conversation about this topic is simply moronic.” Todd

“How is stretching and breathing Satanic?” (Iggy)

(I’m not trying to take anyone’s words out of context, or misinterpret them, so please correct me if I have.)

Who, arguing pro -yoga on this site, actually has expressed concerns about the meditative aspects of it? I’m not just talking about in the “Christian” yoga, but in “health club” yoga as well? Who has an understanding of the dangers that are in different forms of mind- emptying, conscious – altering “meditation?”

206   Matt    
April 30th, 2007 at 12:43 pm

Actually, a lot of people here, myself included, are concerned about “mind- emptying, conscious – altering meditation?”. I think just about everyone who posts on this site disagrees with that. I don’t like TM and don’t feel it is appropriate for Christians to participate in that.

As for stretching, relaxing, learning proper breathing, mediating on scripture, I have absolutely no problem with those activities.

207   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 12:51 pm

Who, arguing pro -yoga on this site, actually has expressed concerns about the meditative aspects of it?

“Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful.” (Joshua 1:8)

“Blessed is the man
who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked
or stand in the way of sinners
or sit in the seat of mockers.

But his delight is in the law of the LORD,
and on his law he meditates day and night. ” (Psalm 1:1-2)

“Within your temple, O God, we meditate on your unfailing love.” Psalm 48:9 (And where is God’s temple?)

“May the arrogant be put to shame for wronging me without cause; but I will meditate on your precepts.” Psalm 119:78

“My eyes stay open through the watches of the night, that I may meditate on your promises.
” Psalm 119:48

“Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.” Psalm 19:14
______

There – now, answer Neil’s questions.

208   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pm

Amy,

RE: “You keep asking, ‘Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?’ as if a ‘no’ answer to that from one who is concerned about Christians practicing yoga would negate everything else they’ve said.”

This is an assumption you are making. I don’t know that it would negate it, but either way the responsibility is on the answerer to justify their interpretation with their stated applications.

If you say “Yes, certain positions/postures are evil in and of themselves” – then you are free to make the application that yoga requires these positions therefore it is wrong for a Christian to do so. ‘Course, you also need to defend how/why they are evil in and of themselves…

If you say “No, positions and postures are not evil in and of themselves.” Then you need to defend how they become evil before applying their prohibition to the Christian life.

Either way – interpretation comes before application. Obviously you have already interpreted, I’m just trying to find out what that interpretation is.

Neil

209   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:00 pm

Amy,

“I think that a more appropriate question is this, ‘How can Christians who don’t recognize yoga for what it is in the first place separate it into parts that are evil and parts that aren’t?’

“Yoga for what it is:” – you have repeatedly stated what you think yoga is, you have not stated how it became that way… or why it is fixed in that state.

Neil

210   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:03 pm

Chris,
Okay, now that you have lots of scripture in hand, do some research on meditation as used in yoga and other new age practices. Look at the practices, look at the goals. The Bible does not promote mind-emptying, conscious altering meditation practices that allow one to be under the control of other spirits and the influence of whatever words, ideas the one guiding the meditation wants to place in their minds.

211   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:05 pm

The more I reflect on Matt’s “Flipping someone off” example the more I like it (as an example, not an action).

The act of raising your hand, with your palm facing you and the back of your hand facing a target, while extending only the middle finger and keeping the other three and thumb tucked against the palm is not a sin. It is the culturally assigned meaning and attitude that attends such a display that is a sin.

Neil

212   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 1:06 pm

Why is yoga – when practiced by Christians – “fixed in state” to what you have defined?

Meditation in Christian yoga is about meditation on the Word of God and prayer.

Will you answer Neil’s questions (and mine), or will you keep dodging?

213   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:06 pm

Chris,
I was bothered by the comment I made to you about the “Book of Chris.” While I actually feel that way (sorry) I said it as a reaction to what you said to Ken; it was childish and served no purpose, and I apologize.

214   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:08 pm

Neil,
As far as people know it was created initially by Hindus.

215   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 1:14 pm

Amy,

I don’t see that comment, but your apology is accepted (even though it was not needed).

Also –

Hindus did not invent meditation. Hindus did not invent stretching and exercise. They took these two godly things and twisted them into something un-godly. What makes redeeming these things for God by modern Christians not OK, but early Christians redeeming December pagan holidays for God by replacing them with a holiday celebrating Christ’s birth OK?

216   Matt    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:16 pm

As far as people know, pasta was created initially by Buddhists (the Chinese). Does that make it bad?

217   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:19 pm

By “it” I assume you mean yoga. Are you saying that since it was created by Hindus – that is what makes it pagan/evil?

Neil

218   Matt    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:24 pm

Correction, according to wikipedia, pasta was invented in the Middle East. The noodle was created initially by Buddhists (the Chinese). Does that make it bad?

219   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:49 pm

Neil,
Your comment, “Are you saying that since it was created by Hindus – that is what makes it pagan/evil?” shows me the futility of even referring to, much less answering, any of the questions.

220   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

Amy,

If that is an incorrect assessment of what you mean – you can just correct me. The frustration I face is your lack of willingness to discuss the basic presuppositions on which you build your interpretations. Futility seems to be my hope for clarity from you, Ken, Chris P…

You made the comment “As far as people know it was created initially by Hindus.” – I was simply looking for a reason that you made the statement… how that fosters futility I do not understand.

Had I asked “what do you mean by…?” would I have gotten an answer?

Neil

221   james    
April 30th, 2007 at 2:23 pm

Neil asked, “how it became that way…”(evil) “or why it is fixed in that state.”

Amy answered, “As far as people know it was created initially by Hindus.”

So now we see your criteria for something being evil…who initially created it. If the creator of something is evil then you automatically place their creations in the evil category as well.

I can respect that opinion as long as you are consistent with it. Taking this dogmatic position requires you do away with many of your modern conveniences…not to mention our beloved Christmas trees. Maybe you should throw out these modern conveniences like the Amish.

We see that when you do answer the questions you sound ridiculous. I guess I can’t blame you for not wanting to answer them. I still agree with your cautions but….come on! I think your personal experiences are hindering you from thinking this through rationally. However, I don’t know what Ken’s excuse is.

222   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 3:35 pm

Ken’s excuse is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and the research he’s done.

Neil,
My basic presupposition is that I need to be loyal to my Savior, God’s Word is relevant for today, that the Holy Spirit can guide us in how to apply it, and that Satan is a roaring lion, and an angel of light.

If I don’t apply the principles I’ve learned from scripture that I believe relate to practicing yoga as “evenly” as everyone thinks I should – researching ALL of the pagan influences in our culture, including idiomatic phrases, days of the week, modern conveniences (that’s a new one) etc, etc, and then get them all out of my life completely – well then, I’m sorry, I just can’t live up to your standards. Neither can anyone I know.

This discussion started off with a discussion of Rob Bell, yoga. It was quickly switched to “Christian” yoga. At some point I realized that the root issue was really not “Christian” yoga, but simply yoga. It’s been an enlightening conversation.

223   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 3:36 pm

James,
My “ridiculousness” might have something to do with what I know about Hinduism.

224   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 30th, 2007 at 3:50 pm

Amy, your response

Ken’s excuse is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and the research he’s done.

highlights how poor a communicator we are or how poorly you’re reading what we’re writing. We are saying that Ken (and you) aren’t basing your arguments on the Bible, but upon external principles based upon your experiences or your preferences.

This “argument” is nothing more than a rehashing of the food sacrificed to idols argument Paul dealt with 2000 years ago. This conversation should stop and let Paul’s authority stand.

If I ever meet you, I won’t engage in yoga. If you come across me and I’m currently engaged in a yoga activity (highly unlikely) I would ask that you not condemn me. How’s that sound?

Does it say anything about the state of the Church when we can spend five days and 220+ comments arguing about whether or not yoga is a sin?

225   james    
April 30th, 2007 at 3:51 pm

“If I don’t apply the principles I’ve learned from scripture that I believe relate to practicing yoga as “evenly” as everyone thinks I should – researching ALL of the pagan influences in our culture, including idiomatic phrases, days of the week, modern conveniences (that’s a new one) etc, etc, and then get them all out of my life completely – well then, I’m sorry, I just can’t live up to your standards.”

Not our standards…yours. We have no problem with these things. But if you feel so strongly about these principles you have learned from scripture then I challenge you to apply them…CONSISTANTLY. You shouldn’t ask us to apply YOUR convictions if you can’t apply them yourself. Maybe you should study the word hypocrite instead of the roots of yoga. That goes for you too Ken.

226   james    
April 30th, 2007 at 3:53 pm

Again, thanks for the cautions. We got it.

227   Todd    http://toddblog.net
April 30th, 2007 at 3:54 pm

James, that seems a little harsh. I don’t believe that Amy is a hypocrite because she feels uncomfortable with yoga.

228   james    
April 30th, 2007 at 4:04 pm

Im sorry if I came across as mean. I am a littlefrustrated that we have been arguing for 5 days about standards that Amy and Ken can’t even apply themselves. It is hypocritical to tell us to have standards that you don’t keep yourself. Thats not mean, just a fact.

229   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 4:26 pm

James,
“Standards that we can’t apply ourselves”

Amazing reasoning. Is this a new form of legalism, or what? “Be perfect in James’ eyes in how consistently you apply scriptural principles or you may not endeavor to apply Scripture at all!”

I guess if I was applying the standards as you see fit, that “modern conveniences” would probably include my computer, in which case I wouldn’t have been having this conversation. You would have never known how I wasn’t “applying the standards.”

Instead I’ve given you the satisfaction of knowing that all the scriptures I’ve written, all the conviction I feel from the Holy Spirit, all the concern that I have for people who will unwittingly open themselves up to Satan, is absolutely “hogwash.” Hope you’re happy.

230   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 4:29 pm

Neil,
“Ya know, now that I have put all this in writing I see, probably their refusal to answer the questions is due to the logical conclusion the answers would take them to…”

I think you got it… and that is what I try to point out… but Ken will not face his own logic… in fact I think he may be afraid to…

I keep asking questions that do not fit his blanket statements and he dodges them and them makes mocking statements to me to divert the attention away from himself…

In that what really happens is he appears more shallow… and mean spirited.

Funny thing is most my comments have scripture literally cut and pasted in the sentence.. and Ken calls me ignorant and not worthy to listen to… I quote the word of scripture and he says it is not worthy to be listened to… funny huh?

Why, because it does not fit his theology… as he filters all scripture through his theology and then misses what it actually says…

Ken is not a bad guy… I hear he is a friendly person at least on the phone… but I wonder… is he jotting down notes to “get” that person later… keeping a list of wrongs to accuse that person later?

One can only wonder…

The saddest thing is that I think that Ken does have some great things to offer… yet until he faces that he is harming the Body of Christ and not edifying it as the gift of the calling of pastor/teacher is purposed to do… he will not be taken serious by anyone other than those who will Amen him… as they too filter through their theology to justify their hate and slander…

If Ken stated, “I see that the use of Yoga if done in the style of the Hinduism… can lead to dangerous areas for a Christian.” I would have nothing to say against that… but to tell me that Chuck Swindoll is using Hinduism style meditation is ludicrous… Ken has condemned Chuck and also for that matter Tozer whom Ken quotes quite a bit…

He needs to define his words as to what they mean… otherwise he looks like all he wants is to stir the manure pile to make a fresh stink…

Blessings,
iggy

231   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 4:40 pm

Amy,

You wrote:

Amazing reasoning. Is this a new form of legalism, or what? “Be perfect in James’ eyes in how consistently you apply scriptural principles or you may not endeavor to apply Scripture at all!”

I don’t think this is what was said. What was said was that when we apply scripture, we must do so in a consistent manner. If we declare a “new” scriptural principal that is not explicitly stated in scripture, one simple test of the “new” principal is that it could be consistently applied.

You have suggested a “new” principal – if something has been “tainted” in its usage by pagans, it cannot be redeemed for Christian usage. If this “new” principal is truly scriptural, it should be something that could (and should) be consistently applied. In the case of your “new” principal, it does not appear to pass this test to the casual observer, so you are being queried as to its consistent application. (and while it was harsh, James’ application of “hypocrite” would fit with teaching a principal but violating it in practice.)

232   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 5:45 pm

Chris,
“You have suggested a “new” principal – if something has been “tainted” in its usage by pagans, it cannot be redeemed for Christian usage. If this “new” principal is truly scriptural, it should be something that could (and should) be consistently applied.”

Actually Chris, you are the one who has been talking about redeeming yoga, not me. Hindus didn’t taint yoga, they created it. Yoga is part of a religious system. It is part of a religious system and as such all the passages that apply to Christians and paganism apply to it.

I see nothing in scripture about redeeming religious systems, but rather redeeming people who have sinned and need to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

This thread should never have switched to “Christian” yoga. I gather that most of you don’t have a problem with yoga, period, from what you have said. It isn’t a religion, nor magic, nor mysticism, nor worship, according to you. You refuse to see a problem with meditation practices used in it. How you expect to recognize if a Christian yoga leader is using meditation practices that can put you into an altered state of consciousness and open you up to deception, I don’t know.

Reread what I said about the I Cor 11 passage. I believe that participating in yoga could be participating in pagan worship.

I don’t necessarily agree with every little bit of what Virginia shared, but some of the principles she shared are right on target. God never asked the Israelites to observe the pagans/religious systems around them and learn to worship as they do.

233   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 5:50 pm

Chris, Amy,

Actually it is a unbiblical principle…

as scripture teaches. “I am making everything new!”… To say that this is only true as Jesus is stating in relation to the New Creation that is to come then negates that we are now.
For “if any man be in Christ, New Creation”… as it literally states.

To say that something is tainted is what God rebuked Peter for in Acts… “that which God has made clean”…. though I say this with caution as “all is permissible, but not all beneficial”, “To the pure all things are pure.”

To say that something is tainted and cannot be redeemed by Christ if followed to the end logic will mean that even the Pagans themselves will not be redeemed which negates Romans 9, (The part where the Calvinist stops with his interpretation and the bible continues with its own for what Paul is really stating in Romans 9 is that the vessels of wath, the gentiles have become vessels of mercy and grace… and the vessels of mercy and grace have become vessels of wrath… because they stumbled over the Stumbling Stone)

So, unless Amy can pull out in a clearly stated scripture she is not on true biblical grounds… and has only an opinion, in which if it is a sin to her, then she should not do it, but she should not condemn those who have “liberties” in Christ more that she anymore that they should parade their high liberties in front of her.

Blessings,
iggy

234   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 6:28 pm

Iggy,
Whatever scripture I “pulled out” wouldn’t suit you because you and I have a totally, TOTALLY, different way of interpreting scripture.

235   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 6:35 pm

Amy,

RE: “My basic presupposition is that I need to be loyal to my Savior, God’s Word is relevant for today, that the Holy Spirit can guide us in how to apply it, and that Satan is a roaring lion, and an angel of light. ”

We’d all say that – I was hoping to get a little deeper.

Neil

236   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 6:38 pm

“James, that seems a little harsh. I don’t believe that Amy is a hypocrite because she feels uncomfortable with yoga. ”

Nor do I. Though I am frustrated that our discussion has remained so superficial and anecdotal. Seems we just cannot break through to the underlying presuppositions.

Neil

237   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 6:46 pm

Amy,

RE: “Whatever scripture I “pulled out” would’t suit you because you and I have a totally, TOTALLY, different way of interpreting scripture.”

I think it goes beyond a different way of interpreting Scripture, I it goes to your world-view of what is ultimately real.

You appear to be saying that things created by pagans are ontologically evil and are unredeemable – yet we see a clear example to the opposite in the Christmas tree, the native drum, etc…

I applaud your desire to avoid all appearances of evil. But in the process you are giving evil more power (by saying Christians cannot “redeem” certain activities) than it really bears.

Neil

238   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 7:03 pm

Yoga (as practiced by Christians) is NOT a religious system. Hinduism is a religious system. When Hindus practice yoga exercises and inject Hindu meditation into it, this is wrong (nobody here has suggested differently). When Christians practice yoga exercises with the Word of God and prayer, they are NOT redeeming a religious system (Hinduism), they are redeeming a physical fitness exercise with Christian meditation (scripture and prayer).

Neil,

You said

I applaud your desire to avoid all appearances of evil. But in the process you are giving evil more power (by saying Christians cannot “redeem” certain activities) than it really bears.

I heartily agree! My wife’s comment to me on this discussion was basically “these folks [amy, Ken, Chris P] are certainly giving Satan more credit and power than he deserves, or is capable of, without us allowing him to have it.”

239   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 7:31 pm

Yoga and meditation: See the video here: http://www.swamij.com/

240   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 30th, 2007 at 7:42 pm

…these folks at CRN.Info are certainly giving Satan far less credit and power than he deserves, or is capable of, and we are foolish to trust our fallen human reasoning in a spiritual realm we have zero control of…

241   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 30th, 2007 at 7:45 pm

Neil,

“I was hoping to get a little deeper.” You’re already in too deep and over your head on this issue. You either can’t or apparently just won’t listen.

242   amy    
April 30th, 2007 at 7:50 pm

Some suggestions for “Christian ” meditation:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm

Notice that “The Maranatha Mantra has been taught extensively by Father John Main and Father Laurence Freeman through their organization, the World Community for Christian Meditation.”

(Note to any new readers: I am not recommending this or the aforementioned site.)

243   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 8:20 pm

Amy,

“Whatever scripture I “pulled out” wouldn’t suit you because you and I have a totally, TOTALLY, different way of interpreting scripture.”

that may be true… and it seem so, yet I let scripture interpret itself in context of the book, the other books and the historical context… all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…

So how do you do it?

Just asking…

Blessings,
iggy

244   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 30th, 2007 at 8:25 pm

“I let scripture interpret itself in context of the book, the other books and the historical context… all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…”

I would say so do I and I would see from her arguments, so does amy. You guys just don’t seem to be able to hear.

245   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 8:27 pm

Ken,

“…these folks at CRN.Info are certainly giving Satan far less credit and power than he deserves, or is capable of, and we are foolish to trust our fallen human reasoning in a spiritual realm we have zero control of… ”

That is why we do not trust in fallen human reasoning… but in Christ and Christ alone… that He is faithful and true and did not lie that He now dwells in us… and that the Holy Spirit will teach us and remind us all Jesus taught.

Again, I have stated that if these people are doing exactly like you are saying, then you are right… yet, I know most are not doing that… in fact again, Tozer was into contemplating scripture… and you quote Tozer… so if all contemplation is of he devil… then Tozer was promoting evil… That is your fallen human reasoning that stands out so clearly…

Also, I can add another… Martin Luther used very colorful and vulgar scatological language… He was the original “cussing pastor”… yet you hold him up… If Scripture is all timeless truth and cussing is always wrong… and Luther cussed worse that Mark Driscoll… and Mark using cuss words is evil… then Luther was even more evil… again, by your fallen human reasoning…

You need to be wiser in your choice of words and battles otherwise you will be condemning more than just McLaren, Kimball, or Driscoll…

Blessings,
iggy

246   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 30th, 2007 at 8:31 pm

iggy,

Not to those with discernment and not to those who actually understand the English language.

247   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 8:47 pm

Ken,

“Not to those with discernment and not to those who actually understand the English language.”

this is not an answer, it does not even make sense as you are denying that Luther used the “s” word openly… as well as other very vulgar words…

And again, are you denying that Tozer “contemplated”?

Again, you dodge the question with a abusive put down and try to look better that others…

This seems to go against the calling of a pastor/teacher…

Ephesians 4: 2-15e completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
There is one body and one Spirit– just as you were called to one hope when you were called– one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it. This is why it says: “When he ascended on high, he led captives in his train and gave gifts to men.”
(What does “he ascended” mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions ? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)
It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.”

Notice this Ken?

“prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature”

i have never seen you do this to anyone… I have never seen anything from you except for put downs and abuse… so where have you ever built me up? If you say in your warnings, that is a cop out… it is not addressing that you are to build others up “until all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature”.

You also seem to think you are above correction… it seems you do not believe that you need to ” Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.”

So, why should we heed anything you have to say… if you do not take the instructions of Scripture, and still claim to be a pastor/teacher I see that you are greatly in error and seek only for position and approval of others…

I think you miss that being ordained by man, is not the same as being called of God… a parchment proves nothing.

Blessings,
iggy

248   Matt    
April 30th, 2007 at 9:05 pm

I love this quote from Tozer. Could he be talking about Silva?

“You can be straight as a gun barrel theologically and as empty as one spiritually.” -Tozer

For his thoughts on the mystics:

“For inner nourishment, Tozer turned constantly to these masters of the inner life. He sat long and lovingly at the feet of these saintly teachers drawing water from their wells with reverence and gratitude. He lifted thankful eyes to God for the men and women who taught him to desire the better way: Nicholas Herman of Lorriane, Nicholas of Cusa, Meister Eckhart, Frederick William Faber, Madame Jeanne Guyon. Only two stipulations did Tozer make: that his teachers must know God, as Carlyle said, “otherwise than by hearsay,” and that Christ must be all in all to them.

Tozer discovered that the companionship of Christ had to be cultivated. That is why he withdrew so often and spent so much time alone. “You can be straight as a gun barrel theologically,” Tozer often remarked, “and as empty as one spiritually.” Perhaps that was why his emphasis was not on systematic theology but on a personal relationship with God. For him it was a relationship so real, so overpowering as to utterly captivate his attention. He longed for what he fondly referred to as a God-conscious soul—a heart aflame for God.”

249   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 9:12 pm

For those of you who don’t know, Nicholas Herman of Lorriane is Brother Lawrence, who wrote…….drum roll please……”The Practice of the Presence of God”.

For Ken’s take on Brother Lawrence, go here:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2006/11/an_sbc_pastor_i.html

Does Ken do any research?

Tozer loved Brother Lawrence’s work!!!!

That is what we call game, set, match, Mr Silva.

250   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 9:14 pm

Amy,

Will you ever answer the questions, or will you just continue to dissemble?

251   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 9:19 pm

I like Tozer…

blessings,
iggy

252   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 30th, 2007 at 9:27 pm

“will you just continue to dissemble?”

Ah, she’s deconstructing your arguments.

iggy,

Dr. John MacArthur meets all the qualifications of your “pastor” role, but you don’t listen to him either. Nice try though.

253   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 9:38 pm

More damaging evidence on the mystical Tozer:

“Dr. D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones and I were discussing the mystics over dinner one evening and he related an interesting experience. With his permission I repeat it here.
“‘Dr. Tozer and I shared a conference years ago,’ he said, ‘and I appreciated his ministry and his fellowship very much. One day he said to me, “Lloyd-Jones, you and I hold just about the same position on spiritual matters, but we have come to this position by different routes.” ‘
“‘How do you mean?’ I asked.
“‘Well,’ Tozer replied, ‘you came by way of the Puritans and I came by way of the mystics.’ And, you know, he was right!”

Warren W. Wiersbe
Walking With The Giants

254   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 9:42 pm

I am often asked “Was Dr. Tozer the greatest preacher you ever heard?”
No, but he redeemed the time and hence had an intimacy with God beyond any other man I ever met. He was a modern mystic who had given priority to the lost art of meditation. To enter into Dr. Tozer’s presence was an awe-inspiring event.

- Leonard Ravenhill

255   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 9:43 pm

ChrisL-

If you want me to write up an article on Tozer the mystic, let me know. I have a blog now.

Here’s more interesting stuff:

In daily life Tozer’s sense of God enveloped him in reverence and adoration. His preoccupation was to practice the presence of God—to borrow a phrase popularized by mystic Brother Lawrence whom Tozer delighted to read. Reflecting on his relationship with God, Tozer once wrote, “I have found God to be cordial and generous and in every way easy to live with.” To him, the love and grace of Jesus Christ was a recurring astonishment.

256   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 9:47 pm

Not all pastors within The Christian and Missionary Alliance were pleased with Tozer’s openness to those who did not toe the denominational line. They did not like the direction in which he was facing their denominational magazine. They thought it should be more of a house organ, focusing on Alliance activities. They complained that Tozer was speaking to the whole world and not just to The Christian and Missionary Alliance. A few also objected to Tozer’s generous use of the medieval mystics whose writings delighted him so.

257   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 9:49 pm

“After the Bible, he said in an Alliance Life article aimed at new Christians, “the next most valuable book is a good hymnal. Let any new Christian spend a year prayerfully meditating on the hymns of Watts and Wesley alone, and he or she will become a fine theologian.” Then he added, “Afterward, let that person read a balanced diet of the Puritans and the Christian mystics. The results will be more wonderful than he could have dreamed.” This was his personal pattern, year after year.

258   james    
April 30th, 2007 at 10:06 pm

ken and amy, you are still dodging the consistency issue. At least Chris p (I believe he said he does not celebrate Christmas or Easter)is attempting to be consistent.

Let’s look for middle ground.

Christian meditation(mystics) has been debated for a very long time. There is an abundance of information about this topic. So let’s agree that people can research it themselves and draw their own conclusions. I will not fault you for your decision to abstain but please do not fault others if they decide its ok.
Much smarter men than we have ended up on both sides of this fence.

259   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 10:51 pm

Ken: “so does amy. You guys just don’t seem to be able to hear.”

I’m willing to listen, but my questions (only two of them) go unaddressed…

Neil

260   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 10:58 pm

Amy,

RE: “Some suggestions for “Christian ” meditation:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm

Regarding “Christian” as an adjective, I would like to ask… ummm, never mind.

Anyone want to answer either of my original questions?

Neil

261   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 11:04 pm

Ken:

Neil,

“I was hoping to get a little deeper.” You’re already in too deep and over your head on this issue. You either can’t or apparently just won’t listen.

Hmmm… Nice ad hominem… this would be so much more fun, and potentially profitable in an iron sharpening iron sort of way if you would refrain from the angry personal attacks and address the issues.

That aside, it’s hard to get in over my head when all Amy does is site anecdote after anecdote (even her last website reference was yet another scenario) and you just pop in and snark personal insults…

Until someone is willing to give the basis for their presuppositions, I guess we’ll just play tit for tat on the scenarios.

Neil

262   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 30th, 2007 at 11:15 pm

“angry personal attacks”

I’m not angry…O, and any personal attacks leveled at me here? You guys will have to do a lot better than this to even take the smile from my face, let alone bother me. peace. :-)

263   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 11:39 pm

Ken,

One I agreed with Amy that if she see it as a sin that then she should not do “christian Yoga”… yet at the showed from scripture as did other that we have freedom in Christ and are His… in that we are under His Authority and protection… “for who can stand against God’s elect”?

So, Amy is free to do as she pleases….

Now about you. you are doing the Ken Silva shuffle to try to get the focus on me… so that you do not have to answer the questions that have been given to you… In that you are not manning up to your convictions but running away from them… In that if your view is true, then follow through… meaning admit Tozer to be a heretic and Luther to be one also… or admit you may be wrong and need to study more yourself…

There is an out for you… if you humble yourself before God… for God gives Grace to the Humble and resists the proud…

Blessings,
iggy

264   Neil    
April 30th, 2007 at 11:42 pm

So, because some here have leveled attacks at you it’s acceptable for you reciprocate to me. For the record, I don’t think you’ll find any personal attacks from me – attacks on your hermeneutics and tactic, yes – personal attacks, no. In fact, I’ve defended you against them.

Ok – maybe you are not angry – but you tend to be nasty… and sarcastic as well.

But we digress… I don’t suppose you’d care to address either of my questions. As I’ve said before – being brothers in Christ and all – it would be a lot easier to discuss an issue if we could define it first.

Neil

265   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

Ken,

I know your convictions run deep… but God’s Grace runs deeper and His Love even more. Yet , to receive that Grace one must humble themselves before God…

And I have not seen any humility from you… only proud and arrogant put downs and biting words that you are better than me… so you can be that… I don’t care, as I lean on Christ and Christ alone for my self image… I know who I am in Christ…

It is God’s kindness that leads us to repentance… and that is what I pray you experience… All the kindness of God.

Blessings,
iggy

266   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
April 30th, 2007 at 11:54 pm

Ken,

You wrote:

Ah, she’s deconstructing your arguments.

She hasn’t deconstructed anything – neither she nor you have shown the simple mental capacity required to answer a few simple questions.

Let’s see – she posted a link to a Hindu website on how to do Christian yoga. What an excellent idea! While we’re at it, let’s ask the Wiccans how to celebrate Christmas, the Mormons how to Baptize, and the JW’s how to do open-air ministry.

You and amy have no credibility on this issue because you cannot even define the terms of the discussion by answering Neil’s simple questions.

You don’t deconstruct, you dissemble. You sniped:

these folks at CRN.Info are certainly giving Satan far less credit and power than he deserves, or is capable of, and we are foolish to trust our fallen human reasoning in a spiritual realm we have zero control of

dangling participles, notwithstanding, I’ll live my life in faith and trust in God will do, while you and amy live your lives in fear of what Satan might do, and we’ll compare notes later…

Answer the simple questions or give up your diversions.

267   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
April 30th, 2007 at 11:55 pm

iggy,

We don’t seem to know the same God.

Neil,

Again, you and I coming from different places. My point was “personal attacks” with words are hardly anything either of us should worry about…they’re just words, they don’t bother me and they shouldn’t bother you.

But I have no interest in a “conversation” where every possible nuance of any possible meaning of every possible word is analyzed and re-analyzed. Friend, this new evangelicalism talks so much and talks in circles it just confuses itself. Seriously, read through some of what you guys have said here, quibbling about words…

268   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
April 30th, 2007 at 11:56 pm

Hey guys the word is getting out that Ken quotes Tozer… and it’s credibility factor…

http://matbathome.blogspot.com/2007/04/tozer-mystic.html

musings and pontifications

So you will have to face up to this “miss”ive attack that indites Tozer…

iggy

269   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 12:00 am

Ken says:

But I have no interest in a “conversation” where every possible nuance of any possible meaning of every possible word is analyzed and re-analyzed. Friend, this new evangelicalism talks so much and talks in circles it just confuses itself. Seriously, read through some of what you guys have said here, quibbling about words…

KenFish translation: I won’t answer any questions, because I can’t support my answers. I will just cloud the issue.

270   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 12:01 am

Ken,

those are your words… not mine.. you serve another god… I believe in Jesus who died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day… In that we have been given salvation through Grace through faith in this Jesus…

I believe in the virgin birth, that Jesus was fully man and yet fully God, that He was incarnate or came flesh…

I believe that there is no other Name to be saved…

I trust only in Christ Jesus for my salvation….

I would like to once again offer to talk to you about Jesus being you very Life… That you come to know Him as your Saviour and Lord… and Friend… and brother…

I believe in the Trinity…

So, as far as your accusation, I guess you deny these things?

Now, what god to you serve?

blessings,
iggy

271   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 12:03 am

Ken,

Actually one more thing… those last words of yours sound like the words of a desperate man…

iggy

272   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 12:10 am

“dangling participles, notwithstanding,”

Ooh, master of the Engish language too. Wow, where do you find the time? By the way, did you recognize that was your wife’s comment reversed?

“I’ll live my life in faith and trust in God will do, while you and amy live your lives in fear of what Satan might do, and we’ll compare notes later…”

O yeah, we will. By the way, I have zero fear of Satan but I do have a healthy fear of the Lord. If He chooses to let you wander further into your twisted Arminianism of the semi-Pelagian preacher in G-Rap you my friend can do nothing about it. You are already on the wrong path and arguing with the Spirit speaking through men like me. Bad idea.

“Answer the simple questions or give up your diversions.” I already answered them but you apparently can’t hear. The meditation such as Richard Foster teaches was not part of Judaism. And Yoga comes from a religious discipline designed to unite them with their “god.” These things cannot be Christianized, because they originated through demons and it is as Baal worship practices and the Asterah poles – the high places – that God forbid and commanded torn down.

But a day that a pagan might have had a celebration on, or something created by God – like a tree – could be held/used by a Christian with a dfifferent meaning for it is like the food sacrificed to idols. Maybe you should read Romans more closely.

273   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 12:13 am

ChrisFish translation: I won’t hear anyone else’s answers, because I am too busy impressing myself with my own reason. I will just talk and be heard because of my many words.

274   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 12:15 am

iggy,

Yeah desperate; that’s what I am. LOL

275   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 12:18 am

Ken,

Now you just sound insane…

Maybe you should Read Romans more closely… as you are Calvinist… oh now your not… or you are….

I answered that with a link that…. answered nothing… we covered already..

You again, just proved you are abusive… that you care little for actual people that get in your way to… whatever kingdom you are building…

Instead of put downs… pray to God so open your eyes to see… I will do so also… as i do everyday… But you actually take time to read and ask God to show you His Truth… not from a commentary… not from Johnny Mac… but from God…

BTW, the answer to your question about listening to John Mac… I have I did and found him wanting… his view of Grace is limited and not biblical… his views of ‘works” is worse…

Instead of pushing another man at me… who has not relevance not authority in my circle or life… so has no privilege to tell me anything… you need to get back to Jesus and God’s Word…

Blessings,
iggy

276   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 12:20 am

Ken,

This is a riot as you are now arguing our argument for us!!!!! LOL!

“But a day that a pagan might have had a celebration on, or something created by God – like a tree – could be held/used by a Christian with a different meaning for it is like the food sacrificed to idols. Maybe you should read Romans more closely.”

So do you believe Jesus was born on Dec 25th?

LOL!

blessings,
iggy

277   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 12:28 am

Ken,

Carefully avoiding actually answering any questions, you asked:

By the way, did you recognize that was your wife’s comment reversed?

I immediately recognized your juvenile attempt at demonstrating your utter lack of creativity, yes.

Then, you slandered:

If He chooses to let you wander further into your twisted Arminianism of the semi-Pelagian preacher in G-Rap you my friend can do nothing about it. You are already on the wrong path and arguing with the Spirit speaking through men like me. Bad idea.

The only spirit speaking through your words against men of God, like Rob Bell, Erwin McManus and others is that of Satan. How do I know this? Because God does not lie and twist truth and prooftext. You, however do. The Father of Lies is Satan, and when you lie, that is the spirit in which you speak. It is fully evident to those with ears to hear.

That is why I oppose your lies and slander.

You then dissembled:

“Answer the simple questions or give up your diversions.” I already answered them but you apparently can’t hear.

Then you went on to not answer these two questions:

1) Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?
2) Are certain postures/positions associatively evil?

Then you once again demonstrated your utter lack of creativity by using the meme generated months ago to demonstrate your dissembling; The KenFish translation.

I’m not “impressed with my own reason” – you just haven’t bothered answering the questions put forth:

1) Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?
2) Are certain postures/positions associatively evil?

These are simple Yes/No questions. Answer them or forfeit any credibility you might ever have had an inkling of claiming.

278   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 12:30 am

Ken,

this has been an eye opener, well not really… but is has been interesting as you try to finagle you way out of these questions…

I am going to bed and getting some needed sleep… I still suggest you take the challenge… I usually pray that God reveal to me that if I am wrong anywhere to let me know.. and He has and He does… many times!

But for this to work you need to come to God without your agenda and desire His… and be willing to change your views if God opens your eyes…

This is not some “gnostic” revelation thingy… but that you just read the Bible and see what God says without listening to Ken… if you can do that… it is a challenge I know that… but when God speaks I will tell you this He will nail you against the wall (in a loving way) and the only answer you can give to His question is an honest one…

I pray that the Light of Christ opens your eyes to His ways and His path is made even more clear to you…

Blessings,
iggy

279   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 7:26 am

“forfeit any credibility you might ever have had an inkling of claiming.”

I don’t Chris L.’s approval of my “credibility,” but thanks anyway. And I answered the questions, you just don’t hear. Both “men of God” – Bell and McManus are semi-Pelagian new evangelicals who hate the doctrine of God’s sovereign election, this would more likely make them men of a god.

280   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 7:41 am

Chris,
Would you agree after watching the two videos, that “Meditation in Christian yoga is about meditation on the Word of God and prayer?” Believe me the second video is not an example of something that is RARELY happening.

Nathan,
You said, “I think reading up on the subject would actually make them more open to doing real yoga.” (April 27 6:33 pm.)
Do you agree with that after watching these videos?

Chris,
You said, “When Hindus practice yoga exercises and inject Hindu meditation into it, this is wrong (nobody here has suggested differently). ” I wonder if you and Nathan really agree on this subject?

Neil,
You said, RE: “Some suggestions for “Christian ” meditation:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm”

Regarding “Christian” as an adjective, I would like to ask… ummm, never mind.”

Unless you say otherwise, I will be assuming then that you have no problem with defining this type of meditation as Christian?

You also said, “That aside, it’s hard to get in over my head when all Amy does is site anecdote after anecdote (even her last website reference was yet another scenario) and you just pop in and snark personal insults…

Until someone is willing to give the basis for their presuppositions, I guess we’ll just play tit for tat on the scenarios.”

Do you call taking scriptures and trying to explain them “anecdotes?” Did you read what I said about I Cor. 11. Um, the two videos were meant to educate anyone who thinks that yoga is harmless, and especially to give people an understanding that “Christian” yoga can be much more than “reading scripture while stretching.” And by the way, the two videos are very much a part of “defining the issue” which is what we’re after, right?

Chris,
“She hasn’t deconstructed anything – neither she nor you have shown the simple mental capacity required to answer a few simple questions.”

So Ken answered one of the most-asked questions, which came along WAY before Neil’s question, about Christmas (which he already answered by the way) and he receives great words of thanks! And his answering the question was a tremendous help to you and to the issue at hand and you all replied with such amazing grace! You proved that my decision in choosing NOT to answer the questions must have some credibility. Maybe I’m not so stupid after all.

And of course you show no concern that this could possibly be true: “These things cannot be Christianized, because they originated through demons and it is as Baal worship practices and the Asterah poles – the high places – that God forbid and commanded torn down.”

Chris,
You said,
“Let’s see – she posted a link to a Hindu website on how to do Christian yoga. What an excellent idea! While we’re at it, let’s ask the Wiccans how to celebrate Christmas, the Mormons how to Baptize, and the JW’s how to do open-air ministry.” GOOD MORNING. HOW DO YOU THINK CHRISTIANS ARE LEARNING TO DO YOGA? Or are Father John Main and Father Laurence Freeman not real Chrisitans? “The Maranatha Mantra has been taught extensively by Father John Main and Father Laurence Freeman through their organization, the World Community for Christian Meditation.” Perhaps I made a mistake; I should have linked to THEIR site to find out how Christians do Hindu yoga.

281   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 7:42 am

Neil,
By the way, I already answered your question, just not to your liking. Here was my answer”

You keep asking, “Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?” as if a “no” answer to that from one who is concerned about Christians practicing yoga would negate everything else they’ve said.

I think that a more appropriate question is this, “How can Christians who don’t recognize yoga for what it is in the first place separate it into parts that are evil and parts that aren’t?”

“Yoga is not a religion. It is not magic. It is not mysticism.” (Chris L) He also said it isn’t worship, as did Nathan.

“The fact that we’re having this detailed a conversation about this topic is simply moronic.” Todd

“How is stretching and breathing Satanic?” (Iggy)

(I’m not trying to take anyone’s words out of context, or misinterpret them, so please correct me if I have.)

Who, arguing pro -yoga on this site, actually has expressed concerns about the meditative aspects of it? I’m not just talking about in the “Christian” yoga, but in “health club” yoga as well? Who has an understanding of the dangers that are in different forms of mind- emptying, conscious – altering “meditation?”

282   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 7:55 am

Why SHOULD I answer anyone’s questions?

Here are some responses Ken received,
“Now you just sound insane…” You again, just proved you are abusive… (Iggy) (Oh yes, with some kind advice, “Instead of put-downs . . .” (I guess “you just sound insane isn’t a put-down?))

“Carefully avoiding actually answering any questions,” (Chris) (An amazing statement after he responded specifically to the much-asked Christmas issue)

Then a threat about two other questions: “Answer them or forfeit any credibility you might ever have had an inkling of claiming.” (And, if you think about it, his answer covers any issues relating to the two questions about positions.)

283   Todd    http://toddblog.net
May 1st, 2007 at 7:55 am

I have no problem with mind-emptying, conscious-altering meditation. In fact, I love it; I recommend it to all my friends.

Is this what you want to hear Amy? Is that what you’re assuming? That simply because I participate in a terribly uncomfortable exercise I am somehow being led down a path to an unholy religion?

Well, I doubt that I could convince you otherwise, so there you have it. I’m a meditative pagan. I suppose this invalidates the grace of Jesus for me?

You know, reading the back and forth, talking past each other on this post is somewhat mind-emptying and conscious-altering.

284   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 7:57 am

[FYI: This is off-topic to the discussion at hand, yoga, but more to the point of Ken's summation from last night]

Ken,

You have no credibility. Period. That is why you can not and will not answer the two simple questions. Your slander of men of God will not go unaccounted.

I have been to the depths of despair, and there, at the bottom of the pit, I was saved by the One and only true God, YHWH. I know what His voice sounds like. As He wrote: “My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.” I hear His voice in my time of prayer and echoed in the voices of His under-pastors who care – and have cared – for me. When I read your screed, though, I also hear the voice of spirits – demons of deception, slander, divisiveness and pride – and I pray that one day He would remove these evil spirits from you.

In the mean-time, these demons will continue in the domination you have given them.

Why do I speak out against you? As Jeremiah wrote:

“But if I say, “I will not mention him
or speak any more in his name,”
his word is in my heart like a fire,
a fire shut up in my bones.
I am weary of holding it in;
indeed, I cannot.”

Your evil (for that is what it is) will not prevail, and the divisiveness you sow will be (and has been revealed) for what it is – lies of Satan, the enemy of truth. It has been revealed in your inability to answer most questions put forth to you since the day I first had the misfortune to read your swill last year.

I pray that one day God will reveal this to you, as He has made plain to so many. I pray this for your sake and the sake of others who are also made complicit in your machinations of the creation of hell on earth.

285   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 7:59 am

Amy,

You said:

By the way, I already answered your question, just not to your liking.

But you didn’t answer them – you just reworded the question.

286   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:02 am

Amy,

You asked:

Who, arguing pro -yoga on this site, actually has expressed concerns about the meditative aspects of it? I’m not just talking about in the “Christian” yoga, but in “health club” yoga as well?

I have MANY concerns about the meditative aspects of “health club” yoga.

I don’t have those concerns about Christian “yoga” (which a number of Hindus point out isn’t REALLY yoga, which is fine by me) in which meditation is upon the Word of God and prayer.

Christian “yoga” is not “magic”. Yoga, as practiced by Hindus, is, at best, false “magic” (like the witch of Endor, who was truly shocked when her divination actually worked).

287   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:06 am

Can someone include the link to the movies Amy is talking about? I have been on that site and can’t seem to find them.

288   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:06 am

Amy,

Ken did not answer the questions – he sidestepped them, making up the same inconsistent new laws you have.

I suppose you can continue to make up rules and regulations to please God (the very definition of legalism), and Ken can continue to misinterpret the ones that actually exist (the definition of false teaching), and we’ll continue to hold to what the scripture DOES say and refute what it DOES NOT say.

If the answers are so obvious, how about actually answering them instead of giving all the reasons you won’t answer them?

289   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:13 am

From the site Amy pointed out:

Question: Is Yoga a religion?
Answer: No, but the question is important to consider.

It is important to note that there is not universal agreement on these points, nor the definition of Yoga, with many feeling that Yoga is not a religion, and many people feeling that Yoga is a religion.

http://www.swamij.com/religion.htm

290   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:24 am

Amy,

Ken wrote:

“These things cannot be Christianized, because they originated through demons and it is as Baal worship practices and the Asterah poles – the high places – that God forbid and commanded torn down.”

The first part “These things cannot be Christianized, because they originated through demons” is supposition, unsupported by scripture – was physical exercise originated through demons? Was meditation originated through demons (let’s ask Isaac someday)?

This first part also invalidates the use of Christmas trees (originated through demons), celebrating Christmas as a ‘replacement holiday’ instead of Mithra’s birth and the pagan winter solstice (originated through demons), or celebrating Easter (a pagan holiday originated through demons).’

Next, Ken take his first unsupported statement and (like you) compares it to tearing down the high places – which was a sin because God said that only He could be worshiped (ruling out the worship of Baal and Ashteroth anywhere), and that He could only be worshiped through sacrifice in the Temple (ruling out carrying out sacrifice and worship anywhere else).

In this case, A (which is unsupported supposition) does not have any logical support to equal B (which is extra-Biblical interpretation of the “why” God forbade worship of Him in the high places).

This is why weaseling out of answering the two questions put forth by Neil is avoiding the subject – they both get to the heart of the matter.

As for the videos, yes I am concerned how far some Christians may take yoga – to bring in the Hindu practice. I think a great deal of care is required in avoiding it. However, this does not mean that Christians should be forbidden from practicing Christian “yoga” which does not bring in Hindu practice. A number of swamis may argue that to remove these things makes the practice no longer technically “yoga”, and that’s fine by me.

291   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:28 am

Early Christians of the “weaker brother” variety probably thought that eating meat sacrificed to idols would lead to worshiping false gods. Amy, it sounds like you are making the same argument the “weaker brother” would have made.

292   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:32 am

Matt,

We’ve been down that road further up the thread, but it doesn’t work for Amy because their “magic” was false, but hers isn’t…

293   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:38 am

So the Roman and Greek gods were fake and not from demons, but Hindu gods are real and from real demons? Is this in Scripture?

Does Amy know that some still worship Pan, a Greek god? How does she know Pan isn’t a demon?

294   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 8:42 am

“I have been to the depths of despair, and there, at the bottom of the pit, I was saved by the One and only true God, YHWH. I know what His voice sounds like. As He wrote: ‘My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.’ I hear His voice in my time of prayer and echoed in the voices of His under-pastors who care – and have cared – for me.”

Yeah Chris, me too. Now what are you going to do? One of us isn’t hearing from God. So now we get to make our stand. Either your new evangelical religion is true, or the historic orthodox Christian faith I preach is true. I can live with that, can you?

“When I read your screed, though, I also hear the voice of spirits – demons of deception, slander, divisiveness and pride – and I pray that one day He would remove these evil spirits from you.” Same here Chris, what you are saying to me cannot possibly be coming from God. So again, now what do you do?

“In the mean-time, these demons will continue in the domination you have given them.” Words that will judge you Chris if you don’t repent.

“Why do I speak out against you?” You speak out about me because this is God’s judgment on your own prideful heart Chris, it’s all over this site and in your writings. Speak out all you want (Isaiah 6:8-10), you only condemn yourself.

295   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 8:49 am

Ken,

RE:”Again, you and I coming from different places. My point was “personal attacks” with words are hardly anything either of us should worry about…they’re just words, they don’t bother me and they shouldn’t’t bother you.”

Obviously, the belittling you do of me does not bother me any more than you are bothered by the belittling others do of you – point is, it shouldn’t be happening at all given we serve the King.

Neil

296   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 8:57 am

Amy,

RE:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm”

Regarding “Christian” as an adjective, I would like to ask… ummm, never mind.”

Unless you say otherwise, I will be assuming then that you have no problem with defining this type of meditation as Christian?

I never said, nor even hinted at such a thing – there a definitive answer to a question of yours.

I find it increasingly frustrating to have to respond to “what if” scenarios – like the Hindu website you linked to – as opposed to discussing the realties that lies behind the example.

Neil

297   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 8:59 am

Why SHOULD I answer anyone’s questions?

Here are some responses Ken received,
“Now you just sound insane…” You again, just proved you are abusive… (Iggy) (Oh yes, with some kind advice, “Instead of put-downs . . .” (I guess “you just sound insane isn’t a put-down?))

“Carefully avoiding actually answering any questions,” (Chris) (An amazing statement after he responded specifically to the much-asked Christmas issue)

Then a threat about two other questions: “Answer them or forfeit any credibility you might ever have had an inkling of claiming.” (And, if you think about it, his answer covers any issues relating to the two questions about positions.)

To this point I have asked but two questions and have never insulted you.

Neil

298   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 9:06 am

Amy wrote:

Neil,
By the way, I already answered your question, just not to your liking. Here was my answer”

You keep asking, “Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?” as if a “no” answer to that from one who is concerned about Christians practicing yoga would negate everything else they’ve said.

I think that a more appropriate question is this, “How can Christians who don’t recognize yoga for what it is in the first place separate it into parts that are evil and parts that aren’t?”

I’ll say you responded to my questions, but you did not answer them. You responded to my question with a question.

I asked two simple questions regarding your worldview of what is real.
You responded with a scenario question built on a worldview of what is real.

I’m just trying to get to the root of the worldview you hold – you won;t tell me, and Ken calls it quibbling.

Neil

PS – what did I ever say to make you think I agreed with the Hindu site you posted? I never said it. I never implied or even addressed the contents. And no one here is advocating anything like it.

299   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 9:13 am

Amy,

The more I read

Unless you say otherwise, I will be assuming then that you have no problem with defining this type of meditation as Christian?

the more I realize how much I have failed at communicating to you my point. if you understood my position, you’d never assume I agree that something Hindu was Christian>

It’s not long, but please read my post regarding “Christian” as a modifying adjective:

http://christianresearchnetwork.info/2007/04/30/christian-insert-noun-or-verb/

After reading this I hoe it would clear up why I think the use of words is something worth quibbling about.

Neil

300   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 9:24 am

And I have stated that I have a problem with Transcendental Mediation already.

301   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 9:27 am

Ken,

Once again you set up a straw man:

Either your new evangelical religion is true, or the historic orthodox Christian faith I preach is true.

I believe in the historic orthodox Christian faith, as practiced by Jesus’ disciples and the early church. There is nothing “new” about what I believe.

“In the mean-time, these demons will continue in the domination you have given them.” Words that will judge you Chris if you don’t repent.

I have nothing for which to repent from those words. Many of your “miss-ives” are nothing short of Satanic in the way they slander God’s people and divide His flock. You would do well to heed Ezekiel 34.

“Why do I speak out against you?” You speak out about me because this is God’s judgment on your own prideful heart Chris, it’s all over this site and in your writings. Speak out all you want (Isaiah 6:8-10), you only condemn yourself.

yes, there is often pride of which I must repent. In this case, though, it is not so. Why I speak out against you is Godly – it is protecting His church from the evil and vileness spewed from the likes of you. Your methods defraud ANY calling you attempt to claim from Isaiah. I serve God and oppose those whose actions oppose him. Your screed fits the bill for opposing God and His work.

302   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 9:29 am

I’ll agree with Matt, as well. I would have nothing to do with TM.

303   Todd    http://toddblog.net
May 1st, 2007 at 9:38 am

I love TM. I’ve never been more creative, energetic or spiritually cognizant.

Thank you Maharishi Mahesh Yogi.

(I had to do a google search for TM, by the way. Now that I’ve discovered it, I love it.)

304   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 9:41 am

Todd,

As a practitioner of sarcasm, I am assuming that the above is such. Some others who frequent this forum aren’t quite so adept at distinguishing such. You might want to clarify – either for me (as mistaken in assuming it to be sarcasm) or for the sarcasm-impaired…

305   Todd    http://toddblog.net
May 1st, 2007 at 9:52 am

It was sarcasm. I apologize. My immaturity is causing me to react to this post in a negative way. I will respectfully bow out of this discussion.

306   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 10:34 am

*fighting my gag reflex at the pomposity*

307   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 11:35 am

Everyone…

I was going to go through and show that Ken is abusive… his attitude to me and others is far from mature and Christian…

It seems funny that Ken deems my questions to him were not worthy of Ken answering..

May i remind Amy and such that within this post and another one Ken has threatened me… and has told;

“Comment from Ken Silva
Time: April 30, 2007, 11:55 pm

iggy,

We don’t seem to know the same God.”

So instead of “giving every man answer” Ken sidesteps and abuses myself and others… all the while gleefully condemning me…

Ken’s comment from the Mike Corley thread speaks loudly of Ken…

“iggy,

Just remember friend you’re the one who came after me and it is a bad idea. I’ll leave it at that. You’re the one constantly whining about this one judged you and that one accuses you. I don’t think you’d last long in my shoes.”

Ken, I am accused every day… of something not true… and i try to answer in such a way that the other will see that they are in error or have misunderstood or at least I acknowledge I am in error… yet I do not give out threats…

btw I never “came after you” I left a comment on a Steve Camp post and you came after me… It was on a post about T.U.L.I.P… remember? That was our first contact…

Do you want me to post the very first contact I had with you? Or should I leave you with you “revisionist” history? It was just as snide and condecending then… without even knowing me as you are now… still not even knowing me but casting out dispariging remarks….

BTW… I would never want to wear your shoes… I have been given my own shows… as my feet are already fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace.

Yet it seems your feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know…. as it has become painfully obvious here in these last posts on CRNinfo…

I pray you find the true way of Peace… and forsake your own path…

Blessings,
iggy

308   jonbean    
May 1st, 2007 at 11:41 am

How many circles can we spin in before we are too dizzy to continue. Amy and Ken will not hear what is said. It’s not your failure to communicate your perspective Chris, it has been explicitly articulated with simple to understand words. They simply will not hear what is said.

309   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 12:01 pm

If all of you believe that the “Christian” ma-ra-na-tha business as seen on the second video has nothing to do with Christ, and that the first video represents the REALITY of what can happen in yoga, then please don’t throw out all the concerns about Christians being involved in “contemplative” because these are the kinds of things that Christians are becoming involved in, whether it be through “theophostic” type visualization, through mantras said in meditations, or sititng in silence waiting for a voice to speak. I’ve seen some of this, with Christ-loving women and men unintentionally getting involved in what they believe is of the spirit. All methods leading to “peace” and even “visions of Christ” are not of Christ.

310   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Amy- Tozer recommended all Christian should read from the Christian Mystics. Should I take his advice?

311   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 12:22 pm

Amy,

The Christian “yoga” class I looked in on last week neither looked, nor sounded, anything like the “Christian” yoga video from the Hindu site… So, do I trust my own two eyes first-hand in a Christian church – or – do I trust a video from a Hindu website – to define what “Christian yoga” is?

Just saying…

312   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 12:24 pm

Jonbean,

There is a big difference between Amy and Ken…

Amy’s concern that if one participates in an activity that may open doors to demons, then it will be harmful… This is the argument that is in Romans 14… Amy is like the “weaker” brother or sister that sees that to eat meat that has been sacrificed to an idol will then receive the “demon” within them that the meat was sacrificed to… This is a legitimate concern and I do not mock her but extend Grace to here on this… Amy do not take what I said as a put down… as I do understand… though disagree… as Paul states

“He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God.”

The big difference is that Amy is not using this as a tool to judge and condemn her brothers and sisters as Ken is doing…
what Ken is doing is not listening to Paul as he states..

” Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.”

Though Ken is “concerned” as Amy… Ken uses this as chance to judge and condemn others… while most of us believe the Lord is able to make us stand.

We all agree that chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian” I hope no one is arguing that is good… yet to say Jesus over and over in prayerful adoration… or to say Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord… in worship is not the same at all… neither is to empty oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation… Yet, to say that John of the Cross or brother Lawrence did the same thing as Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi teaches is the same thing is an insult to God…

In Ken’s zeal to judge and condemn he misses that God is ever drawing us into a deeper and richer relationship… Jesus does not want to just be our “Lord”.. but as He stated, is now our brother…

So, to use this as a way to condemn is going against the teaching of scriptures, but for Amy she is within her “right” to walk as she sees fit in the faith she has been given… and we are not to put her down for that… which is why i stopped engaging with her as I do not want her to stumble….

Blessings,
iggy

313   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 12:40 pm

Chris L.

As i re-read this post again I noticed Ken’s “source”… which to me is not a real “source” but just another “yes man” who agrees with Ken…

A source would be a link to a prominent Yogi, who states something and then a “christian” site saying the same thing… that at least would give us some pull… Amy tried but as far as the videos failed to show that the “Christian” version from a Christian site is teaching the same thing as the Yogi…

So as far as “source” it is a farce… it does nothing to build the credibility of Ken’s argument against Christian Yoga… as it only shows he does shallow research… It also shows that Ken has no real experience in actually talking to those outside his Christian ideologies… other than to slam them…

At least Walter Martin hit the streets and if he did not know the answer would say he did not but ask the person to come back as he would go and look up the answer…

I found that the confrontational style in street preaching/witnessing to not work for me… but respectful interchanges seemed to work wonders!

Blessings,
iggy

314   jonbean    
May 1st, 2007 at 12:46 pm

Iggy, I do see what you mean about the difference between Ken and Amy. My frustration is simply with whatever the motivation that they have and I do believe that Amy has pure motives, she is unwilling to listen and accept that there is the chance that she doesn’t have the whole picture. See there are many things to be concerned about pertaining to yoga. But thinking about God’s word is not emptying your mind, it is not TM. If we are to meditate on God’s word day and night, then we certainly should do it while we exercise too. It’s just the term yoga that causes so much trouble. My words in no way are intended to question Amy’s or for that matter Ken’s freedom to live in the way that they feel God directs. I just simply would like them to extend others that right as well.

God Bless!
Jon

315   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 1:21 pm

CRN.Info is “unwilling to listen and accept that there is the chance that they don’t have the whole picture.”

This is more accurate.

316   Todd    http://toddblog.net
May 1st, 2007 at 1:24 pm

*fighting my gag reflex at the ignorance*

317   jonbean    
May 1st, 2007 at 1:32 pm

I’m glad I could provide you with a pearl of wisdom to twist Ken. It really makes my day.

318   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 1:42 pm

I’ve grown weary of Ken’s hostility and attitude that he’s God’s judging force.
I’ve grown impatient with Amy’s insistence on anecdotal empirical “what ifs” in lieu of talk about the realities on which they are built.

Maybe next week we can have a OSAS discussion and all talk about people who have “left” the faith…

I agree with Iggy there is a significant different in the attitude of Ken and Amy – unfortunately the end result is the same – all attempts at a substantive discussion are met with more “what abouts” or dismissed as too bothersome since it involves analysis of what words really mean.

Neil

319   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 1:47 pm

I am calling for a unilateral truce on snide comments. Let Ken wallow in name calling, salvation questioning, bodily-function referencing, and personal attacks alone.

I suggest his insults should fall on deaf keyboards when it comes to responding in like manner.
I suggest we not give him fodder for response other than the superiority of our position.

Neil

320   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 1:58 pm

Chris,
Who do you trust to determine what Christian yoga is? First of all, regarding the church scenario:

I have been part of several activities directed by women that included scripture, prayer, and . . .

Scenarios where spirits could be let in to influence the mind. through very subtle things like, “Imagine this peaceful scene. Jesus comes to you there . . . ” Or, “You say you see someone on a horse? Is it a white horse?” I know from my reading and from talking to other people about things like this that they are very common. People can see Jesus’s that aren’t in character like the real one, and see events that they think happened in their past, that never happened. They can have peaceful, wonderful experiences, and then find they have some “company” that won’t go away. A number of the people I know that are involved in things like this have been influenced by theophostic counseling (which is sometimes called “biblical counseling,” “inner healing.” ) Many believe that theophostic counseling has an occult base, via Agnes Sanford.

The things I’ve seen happen are just happening with women sitting together having a bible study, or being ministered to through prayer and guiding questions. To see these things happen in those kinds of places, with the people that I’ve seen them happen with (and they are not all connected with each other) makes it very difficult for me to think that the same kind of thing isn’t happening in Christian yoga. The whole setting is peaceful, intended to relax the mind, focus on the spiritual.

I believe that God can do all kinds of things, including giving people a feeling of deep peace, even visions. I think that when we put ourselves under something we shouldn’t be under, whether it’s a philosophy, a practice, a person using “power from God” in a way that was developed in the occult, we open ourselves up to deception.

I don’t believe that people can “see” all that’s going on in a yoga class, no matter what it looks like on the surface.

Secondly, regarding the video:

The Christian idea of saying mantras, as explained in the video, are becoming more and more common. Maybe Christians aren’t going to explain them in the terms that the Hindu guy used. They will most likely be presented in a harmless way. I don’t intend to imply that they will be presented in a harmless way because the Christian teacher is out to deceive, but because, as in the case of people I’ve been in contact with who have been influenced by theophostic beliefs, see them as harmless.

Do some research. Just type in the word “Christian” and “yoga” and see what you come up with.

321   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 2:16 pm

I haven’t been a peaceful person on this subject, but can we pull back the nastiness? That little comment below was out of line.

“Do some research. Just type in the word “Christian” and “yoga” and see what you come up with.”

322   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 2:21 pm

Iggy,
You said, “Amy is like the “weaker” brother or sister that sees that to eat meat that has been sacrificed to an idol will then receive the “demon” within them that the meat was sacrificed to…” If you go back and read my comments on I Cor 11, you’ll see that my first opinion of yoga is that it is the “cup of demons,” not the “meat from the market.” I am not God so I don’t know this, but that is my first opinion. I also stand by everything I’ve said about the High Places.

You said, “We all agree that chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian” I hope no one is arguing that is good… yet to say Jesus over and over in prayerful adoration… or to say Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord… in worship is not the same at all…” So what did you think of the ma-ra-na-tha presentation?

Are you saying that emptying oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation” has no relation to “chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian?”
(Or am I misunderstanding you?)

Jonbean,
I never said I had a problem with meditating on God while exercising.

323   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 2:25 pm

Matt,
It was only out of line if you read it in the wrong tone of voice. I had no intention of meaning it meanly.

I, probably unlike you, am a relative beginner on using the internet. If I were doing research on something I would appreciate knowing the best way to find it. I realize now that it might sound stupid to Chris, and as a result, like I was talking “down” to him; that was by no means my intention.

324   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 2:33 pm

“Imagine this peaceful scene. Jesus comes to you there . . . ”

Opens you up to demonic influence?

Neil

325   jonbean    
May 1st, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Amy, just so we are on the same page, meditating on God’s word while exercising is what pretty much all of us would define Christian yoga as. I know there are exceptions to this but a bunch of us have already said that in our minds Christian yoga is meditating on the word of God while exercising.

326   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 2:37 pm

If anything, this has shown that a lot of people have examined the scripture/done a lot of research and have come to completely different conclusions. One side says yoga goes to far and the other says it doesn’t and we can trust ourselves that it won’t.

Not sure what else there is to say.

327   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 2:39 pm

OK- guess I’ll just discuss scenarios and ignore the deeper things as well.

Once I heard a Christan say the Richard Foster advocated astral projection. She quoted Foster as saying “Imagine you are in space looking down on creation…”

She then vexed at length on how “imagine” was trying to create a new reality and the only way to look down on creation was to leave you body…

Neil

328   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
May 1st, 2007 at 2:49 pm

…And Neil sums up 300 odd comments. Ok everyone let’s practice now, one side say, “I’m right you’re wrong.”
The other side say the same thing. Oh and don’t answer any questions that might have to do with the logicalness of your position. Throw in a few “I wouldn’t want to be in your shoes, you’re on your way to Hell” shots and we can do this for eternity. Ok, I’m off to connect the dots between on my throat!

329   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 1st, 2007 at 3:02 pm

Read what Foster said for yourselves from his book Celebration of Discipline (1978):

“A fourth form of meditation has as its objective to bring you into a deep inner communion with the Father where you look at Him and He looks at you. In your imagination, picture yourself walking along a lovely forest path. Take your time, allowing the blaring noise of our modern megalopolis to be overtaken by the sound of rustling leaves and cool forest streams. After observing yourself for a bit, take the perspective of one walking, rather than the one observed. Try to feel the breeze upon your face as if it were gently blowing away all anxiety. Stop along the way to ponder the beauty of flowers and birds. When you are able to experience the scene with all your senses, the path breaks onto a lovely grassy knoll. Walk out into the lush large meadow for a time, lie down on your back staring up at blue sky and white clouds. Enjoy the sights and smells. Thank the Lord for the beauty.”

“After awhile there is a deep yearning within to go into the upper regions beyond the clouds. In your imagination allow your spiritual body, shining with light, to rise out of your physical body. Look back so that you can see yourself lying in the grass and reassure your body that you will return momentarily. Imagine your spiritual self, alive and vibrant, rising up through the clouds and into the stratosphere. Observe your physical body, the knoll, and the forest shrink as you leave the earth. Go deeper and deeper into outer space until there is nothing except the warm presence of the eternal Creator. Rest in His presence. Listen quietly, anticipating the unanticipated. Note carefully any instruction given. With time and experience you will be able to distin-(27)guish readily between mere human thought that may bubble up to the conscious mind and the True Spirit which inwardly moves upon the heart. Do not be surprised if the instruction is terribly practical and not in the least what you thought of as “spiritual.” Do not be disappointed if no words come: Like good friends, you are silently enjoying the company of each other. When it is time for you to leave, audibly thank the Lord for His goodness and return to the meadow. Walk joyfully back along the path until you return home full of new life and energy.” (28) [footnote * Another very enjoyable meditation entitled “pull the plugs” has the same purpose in mind and is described by Joy Kimmel in Chapter One of her book Steps to Prayer Power published by Abington Press. I have used this meditation numerous times with real profit.]”

330   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 3:20 pm

Neil asked,
“Imagine this peaceful scene. Jesus comes to you there . . . ”
Opens you up to demonic influence?”

Yes. For example, one Jesus who came to a person sitting in this situation, eyes closed, heart open, was described like this: “Jesus came and sat next to me and put on some sunscreen. Guess he wanted to get himself a suntan” – This from a godly, educated woman.

When asked about pictures of Jesus that seem like Him, and then look demonic, the leader responded that this happens, and that those are “false Jesus’s.”

I just read a comment (and don’t know the person so can’t vouch for it’s validity) from a lady who said that she met Jesus and became a Christian through her yoga/meditation practices. She said her husband is still following his own Eastern path, and that’s fine, because he’s devoted to it. I believe that’s the kind of Jesus people will meet through yoga – one who fits the category of being “one way” among many.

331   james    
May 1st, 2007 at 3:23 pm

I think we found the answer guys. Let’s just stop using the term “christian yoga” and call it “meditating on God while exercising.” Amy doesn’t have a problem with it, but i’m sure Ken does…

332   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 3:42 pm

What logic do you want?

Yoga is harmless. Christians should not be aware of it’s nature. Leading people into opening up their minds to visions is fine as long as the person is a Christian. Christmas trees and modern machinery and saying “gesundheit” are acceptable only if yoga is okay, wiccan practices are okay, meditation practices of all types are okay, and child-sacrifice is okay. The Word of God is not relevant when talking about today’s pagan activities and Christian’s role in them, except of course, if one wants to apply the “weaker brother” principle, admit that one is the weaker brother, and never, ever say anything about why you believe what you believe, because the “stronger” brother will of course think you are condemning him. Ken Silva never says anything of substance, even when he says something of substance. He is incapable of saying anything logical except on that rare occassion when someone at CRN info agrees with him.

333   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 3:43 pm

James,
Maybe you’re trying to be funny; what you said is a lie.

334   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
May 1st, 2007 at 3:45 pm

333!!

335   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 4:33 pm

OK – I’m satisfied that I finally understand you worldview – thanks Amy.

Did you catch the part about my reaction to the site you posted to? Nothing I said or did not say should anyway be construed as supporting it.

not sure how you came to that conclusion – but how is moot.

Neil

336   james    
May 1st, 2007 at 4:35 pm

amy said,
“I never said I had a problem with meditating on God while exercising. ”

where is the lie?

337   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 4:36 pm

Amy,

RE: “The Word of God is not relevant when talking about today’s pagan activities and Christian’s role in them, except of course, if one wants to apply the “weaker brother” principle…”

The issue is not the relevance of the Word, (we all agree on that) the issue is whether or not the activity is “pagan.”

What makes something “pagan?”

Neil

338   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 4:40 pm

Ken,

Thanks for the full quote. As you can see from a plain reading of it – Foster is not advocating astral projection or any other unbiblical activity.

He may be a bit more “touch-feely” than I, but that’s only his style.

Neil

339   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 4:42 pm

Amy,

What biblical text do you use to purport that using our imaginations opens us to demonic influence?

Neil

340   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 4:56 pm

Neil,
I’m pretty sure what you meant was that labeling something Christian doesn’t make it Christian, but I’m not sure.

My worldview regarding evil is that God allows Satan to operate on this earth in many ways, and men, because of their fallen natures, are ready to serve him. I can never understand exactly how he works, but I have seen him working in a way that he is a “roaring lion” as well as an “angel of light.” My duty and joy as a Christian is to follow the teachings of scripture as best as I can through the Holy Spirit. It’s not really my responsibility to dissect, analyze, or try to redeem systems that are being used to bring people in Satan’s path – it’s my responsibility to obey what I believe scripture teaches about those systems, which is to treat them as the work of Satan, and if I have a chance, to help people who are being pulled into those systems.

341   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 5:14 pm

Using one’s imagination is not wrong. The things I was talking about were not encouraging people to use their imagination. They were getting them to open themselves up to visions that come from outside themselves.

Pagan, the way it specifically applies to most things I’m talking about: Practices that promote, allow union with the demonic.

342   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 5:15 pm

For what it’s worth, in every case where I’ve heard of people coming into contact with the spirit world through guided imagery or some type of invitation, there has been someone leading them who is expecting it to happen.

343   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 5:16 pm

Amy,

You wrote:

I don’t believe that people can “see” all that’s going on in a yoga class, no matter what it looks like on the surface.

Actually, Amy, the yoga class was being held in our extended “green room” next to the High School service (where the band in which I play leads worship). We were in there for about 30 minutes of the class, out for 15 (while we were playing) and back in for another 10-15 minutes (as I was curious just to see what was going on).

No mantras. No ma-ra-na-tha. Lots of painful-looking stretching, a number of Psalms (I recognized parts, but couldn’t tell you which ones), prayer, some silence, some laughter, and instruction on positions and such from the instructor.

Maybe James is right – let’s just call it “Christian exercise with scriptural meditation” (since it’s not REALLY yoga – which I wrote in the initial article, and a number of critics and supporters have commented on in a number of web pages – beyond just what you will find with “christian” and “yoga” in Google) and move on.

344   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 5:53 pm

Chris,
I’m talking about “seeing” in the spiritual sense.

When I was in the scenario I described above, no one seemed to be disturbed that a lady had just seen a picture of Jesus next to her putting sun-screen on. One of the leaders who told me about the “false-Jesus’s” didn’t warn anyone about any such thing happening. The whole event was presented without any warning, as a way for people to get closer to God. Yet people who experience visions through such events can find themselves having constant visions of such things – visions that don’t come from God.

I imagine you could find Christians in classes using mantra, astral projection, mind-emptying, that would just seem like they were having a good time. People accept things because they bring peace, happiness, their pastor approves, etc.

Neil,
Do you not think that yoga is pagan, in any sense of the word? Why, or why not?

If there was nothing objectionable with Foster’s quote, why was it removed from the book?

345   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 5:57 pm

Neil,
Did you know that little children lie on their backs in school classes and hear things such as Foster quoted, and get spiritual guides that can affect them for life?

346   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 6:18 pm

Amy,

I think yoga can be pagan, I think it can be exercising while stretching – depends on the meaning given to it.

Neil

347   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 6:19 pm

“If there was nothing objectionable with Foster’s quote, why was it removed from the book? ”

Overreaction by people…

348   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 6:20 pm

“For what it’s worth, in every case where I’ve heard of people coming into contact with the spirit world through guided imagery or some type of invitation, there has been someone leading them who is expecting it to happen.”

This I’d call pagan.

Neil

349   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 6:23 pm

“I’m pretty sure what you meant was that labeling something Christian doesn’t make it Christian, but I’m not sure.” – Amy

Correct, and equally true – calling something pagan doesn’t make it thus.

Also true – just because pagans do something, does not mean it is pagan.

Also true – something that is determined to be pagan does not mean it’s meaning is fixed for all time.

Neil

350   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 6:25 pm

“…and get spiritual guides that can affect them for life?”

This sounds like you are saying a spirit/demon attaches itself to a child and affects them for life.

Neil

351   Neil    
May 1st, 2007 at 6:29 pm

I suppose if we define “yoga” as the thing Hindus do – and removing the spiritual aspects means it’s no longer yoga.

In that case a Christian could practice all the moves, void of the meaning, and it would not be yoga – even if they called it such.

Problem solved

Neil

352   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 7:44 pm

Amy,

Yes i am saying;”Are you saying that emptying oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation” has no relation to “chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian?”
(Or am I misunderstanding you?)”

The BIG difference is that a Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit… we have been bought and paid for… we are not our own…. we are a NEW CREATION… so what we do is “in Christ”.

many have really bad theology on this topic… but I recommend Maj Ian Thomas as one great source… or read Classic Christianity by Bob George to see what it means to be “in Christ”.

If we are in Christ if is for eternity… and if we are saved here it is for eternity… that is the danger when Ken states things like “iggy serves another God” or that i am not saved… that is presumption on his part to know my motives and even worse know the eternal destiny of another… I mean does Ken have the Lamb’s Book of Life on his coffee table at home… he acts like he does as he judges and condemns or worse… the claims he has some special “inside” with God… he is not different than the bottom line in the “word of Faith movement”.

Ken has some really bad theology that justifies condemnation and hate toward his brothers in Christ… even a superficial reading of 1, 2 3, John should clear that up…

But I have seen the twisting of Scripture to justify their own view and infuse it into scripture…in stead of letting God’s Word enter and change them…

Blessings,
iggy

353   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 8:03 pm

This sounds like you are saying a spirit/demon attaches itself to a child and affects them for life”

I believe it can.

As for your last note, I knew this was where you were headed. Your problem is not solved. It’s the spiritual reality behind something that makes it what it is, not our opinion of it. We can’t remove that spiritual reality simply by talking about the possibility that it isn’t there any more.

God gives us eyes, both spiritual and physical, to look at things. If you can look at yoga and say “This is not paganism,” “Satan has nothing to do with this” . . . this conversation is pointless. If you believe that yoga is pagan, then why do the passages in scripture about paganism not apply to it?

All the scriptures I shared before, still stand. When I see something that looks like spiritual prostitution, I try to look at it in the same way that God looked at spiritual prostitution in the Old Testament, and treat it in the way that God asked the Israelites to treat it.

God never said “participating in pagan’s feasts is okay as long as you don’t give meaning to it. He said that such participation was participating in “the cup of demons.” He didn’t say, “Worshipping in the high places is okay if you worship me there, or if you don’t think about the pagan gods while you’re there. He said don’t do it. He didn’t tell Solomon, “Marry pagan wives as long as you aren’t being led astray by them.” He said, “Don’t marry them.”

354   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 8:10 pm

Iggy,
I don’t understand. Why can’t you chant “Ohhhm” if you do it in Christ? I mean, what is the difference in chanting “Ohhhm” and doing tm? I’m not trying to be sarcastic, I’m trying to understand.

What is the goal of doing TM “in Christ?” What other styles of meditation are acceptable? What are unacceptable?

What makes it “in Christ?”

What other things do you think a person can do “in Christ” that are generally controversial?

355   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 8:19 pm

Amy,

God told Hosea to marry a prostitute… God told a lot of people different things…

The real issue is that you are combining OT law with NT Grace and in that negating the Grace of God.

We are interpret the OT from the NT… not the other way around…

Peter was commanded by God to eat unclean animals… some might say that it was just symbolic… but today as Gentile believer I enjoy my pork…

We cannot say that when God told the Israelites such and such… that we being gentiles to day must do it also… In fact if that was true we should be stoning our disobedient children and false prophets… Under the Law we learn that the wages of sin is death… now we are under the Higher Law of Love that teaches us to forgive and love others even if they are your enemies…

In reality the verses in 1 Corinthians 10:22 illustrates my point if we are children of God, we cannot drink the cup of demons any longer…

Paul sums up the point I have been making in that we must look out for the greater good of those around us… If you by eating meat sacrificed to idols see that as sin… it is to you… so do not do it…

Also, to drink the cup in an unworthy manner… meaning that it is just like the “fraternity style” worship of Corinth and Rome… as well as other cities, to just come and eat and drink to have one’s fill was what they did in the pagan temples… to do that as a Christian with the Lord’s Supper was not taking communion in a worthy manner.

This is not about the alters in the High Places as you are stating… that is combining to different contexts and not seeing what is really being said in 1 Corinthians…

Blessings,
iggy

356   amy    
May 1st, 2007 at 8:50 pm

The OT is not just a book of law, but of grace, and the story of Hosea is one of the deepest illustrations of that.

In the New Testament, those who have been born again are pictured as being set free, and that freedom includes being free to not live according to their sinful desires They are no longer controlled by their sinful nature, but by God.(Romans 8:1-12.)

True children of God will have a pattern of desiring what is of God, not what is of Satan. The New Testament teaches that they will have the Holy Spirit in them to convict them of sin.

The Bible doesn’t say that the Holy Spirit will show them that what is sin is pure and good.

Those who are “in Christ” obey Christ. He gives them the power to obey, not just to feel forgiven and loved.

The cup of demons passage starts off with the command to “flee from idolatry. The warning about drinking from the cup of demons was written to believers.

“Therefore my dear friends, flee from idolatry. I speak to sensible people; judge for yourselves what I say. . . (I Cor 10:14 NIV)

357   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:57 pm

It’s the spiritual reality behind something that makes it what it is, not our opinion of it. We can’t remove that spiritual reality simply by talking about the possibility that it isn’t there any more.

So, from this it appears that your answer is that yes, some physical exercises are ontologically evil. Is that correct?

358   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 8:58 pm

356 comments and we still can’t get past this issue. Don’t we have better things to do? Perhaps, in the spirit of McLaren, we should declare a moratorium. :)

359   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 1st, 2007 at 9:03 pm

He didn’t say, “Worshipping in the high places is okay if you worship me there, or if you don’t think about the pagan gods while you’re there. He said don’t do it. He didn’t tell Solomon, “Marry pagan wives as long as you aren’t being led astray by them.” He said, “Don’t marry them.”

He didn’t say “don’t do physical exercises and meditate on my Word”, though. Your comparison to the “high places” just doesn’t wash, Amy. You’ve made up a reason that God said this. He told the people of Israel where He was to be worshipped (the Temple), and they chose to do it elsewhere.

To my knowledge, though – and perhaps you can point out the scripture to contradict this – He didn’t say “you can’t exercise and meditate on my word”. AND – since we are now the temple, wherever we are, part of the Temple is with us, and we may worship Him anywhere – in Spirit and in truth. We’re worshipping Him in the place He instructed.

360   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 1st, 2007 at 9:07 pm

Chris L,

Interesting as now our bodies are the Temple of God… and we worship in Spirit and in Truth…

So, as God interacted in the OT with His people, through that Tabernacle or Temple… He does now in us… by His Spirit…

That is a very big key that is missing from Amy and Ken’s position…

So Ken and Amy, can I worship God outside a church building?

Blessings,
iggy

361   Todd    http://toddblog.net
May 1st, 2007 at 10:07 pm

I know I said I was bowing out, but going back a few clicks:

How do we know “suntan lotion Jesus” is a fake Jesus? Jesus would probably wear sunscreen given the chance.

362   Neil    
May 2nd, 2007 at 9:23 am

“God never said ‘participating in pagan’s feasts is Kay as long as you don’t give meaning to it’…” – Amy

I agree. But what makes it pagan? You seem to think that once a pagan employs something – say a posture/position during exercise its pagan meaning has been fixed for all time. Why?

The for two millennia the church has taken pagan “things” – voided the pagan spirituality – and used them. we celebrate Christmas when we do because Christian meanings replaced pagan meanings for a feast. We use the word “Easter” because pagan spring festivals were voided of their meaning and the truth of the resurrection put in its place.

Tribal peoples who have been redeemed can take their drums and other instruments that were once dedicated to the service of demons – and use them to glorify their Creator and Savior.

That is why I harped so on the ontological meaning of things.

Neil

363   amy    
May 2nd, 2007 at 11:30 am

Chris,
“Your comparison to the “high places” just doesn’t wash, Amy. You’ve made up a reason that God said this. He told the people of Israel where He was to be worshipped (the Temple), and they chose to do it elsewhere.”

God told the Israelites to destroy the high places in times previous to the creation of the temple was created.

Numbers 33: 52: (God speaking to Moses) When you cross the Jordan into Canaan . . demolish all their high places

Deut 7:5, 12:3 Break down their altars . . .

I Kings 3:3 Solomon obeyed the Lord’s statutes, EXCEPT that he offered sacrifices and burned incense on the high places. This was written to Solomon before he built the temple.

These “pagan high places” were in contrast to places, pre-temple, where the Israelites were allowed to sacrifice. (Ex 20:24, Joshua 8:30, 31, and others as well.

364   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 11:41 am

Amy,

Deuteronomy 12:5 “But you shall seek the LORD at the place which the LORD your God will choose from all your tribes, to establish His name there for His dwelling, and there you shall come. ”

That place was the Tabernacle, and then the Temple, and is now – still – the Temple (though the location has changed).

What about Neil’s question:

But what makes it pagan? You seem to think that once a pagan employs something – say a posture/position during exercise its pagan meaning has been fixed for all time. Why?

What makes the combination of exercise and meditation “pagan”, but the myriad of other things in our lives with pagan origins no longer “pagan”?

365   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 2nd, 2007 at 12:32 pm

What makes the combination of exercise and meditation “pagan”, but the myriad of other things in our lives with pagan origins no longer “pagan”?

Demons devised it through pagan people as to how people would worship them and as such involves the person himself. Things outside of a human being, days, trees, etc. are not the person himself directly participating in an act of worship.

You’re welcome.

366   amy    
May 2nd, 2007 at 12:33 pm

Chris,
Yes, there were a tabernacle. But there are numerous verses that talk about altars built, that were acceptable to God, as I’ve already stated. These were in contrast to the pagan altars which were to be torn down.

Here’s a kind of backwards way of looking at this. What were Shadrach and company concerned about when they were asked to bow before the golden image? Were they thinking about how actually “bowing” was not “ontologically evil,” and that certainly they could “bow” with their bodies without bowing with their souls? They didn’t analyze it. They just refused to give homage – real or pretend – to a system that placed another God before their own God.

An anecdote (sorry Neil): What “made” the energy healing resulting in semi-hypnosis that I experienced “work” – as far as giving freedom from pain and putting me in a semi-hypnotic state. Was it the ontologically non-evil hand motions taking place behind my back? As far as I know no incantations, invoking of power, etc, were going on. If anything, the man was praying for me.

Who am I to say how and when Satan works? I see a system foreign to God in its roots, being actively used as one of the means of deceiving both Christians and non-Christians. It’s not just about body, it’s about soul and mind. I see plenty of scriptures that tell me to avoid it. Why should I not, and why should I not feel it is important enough to say what I believe about it?

If the issue is really “harmless exercise and meditation” then why don’t Nathan’s statements, that the more people knew about yoga the more they would want to do it, bother you?
Why is their no response to Iggy’s words about TM?

Here’s some questions about TM that people are probably asking: “Why is saying words over and over “ontologically evil?” At what point does it become wrong, the second repetition, the third repetition? What makes the TM positions for receiving mantras (if there are any) wrong? How can a position be wrong? Doesn’t God want us to get to a place where we’re absolutely empty? So what if it was developed by a Hindu – that doesn’t make it pagan, does it?What could possibly be wrong with saying words like “maranatha?” Is there something ontologically evil about saying something slow, in a certain rhythm?

Did I do a good job, Iggy?

The questions will never end, on any subject. In the meanwhile people will be deceived by participating in things that they could find plenty of biblical reasons to avoid.

367   amy    
May 2nd, 2007 at 1:13 pm

Iggy,
By His Spirit, AND IN HIS TRUTH

368   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 2nd, 2007 at 2:22 pm

*thumbs up to Amy*

You go girl! You’re doing fine.

369   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 2:27 pm

Does anyone realize that we wouldn’t be discussing this if stretching and breathing wasn’t good for us? There are no added health benefits to bowing.

370   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 2:33 pm

Seems that yoga, non tm, is under 1 Corinthians 6:12. It is permissible and benificial.

1 Corinthians 6:12

“Everything is permissible for me”—but not everything is beneficial. “Everything is permissible for me”—but I will not be mastered by anything.

371   Neil    
May 2nd, 2007 at 3:26 pm

“Demons devised it through pagan people as to how people would worship them and as such involves the person himself. Things outside of a human being, days, trees, etc. are not the person himself directly participating in an act of worship. ” – Ken

So the meaning of certain positions are ontologically set because they were devised by demons – is this correct?

Neil

372   iggy    http://watchingthewatchdawgforchrist.blogspot.com/index.html
May 2nd, 2007 at 3:31 pm

Amy!!!

You got it girlfriend!!!!

blessings,
iggy

373   Neil    
May 2nd, 2007 at 3:35 pm

“Does anyone realize that we wouldn’t be discussing this if stretching and breathing wasn’t good for us? There are no added health benefits to bowing.” – Matt

True – plus the context sets the meaning. In the context of Daniel the bowing was in worship – therefor they refused. Bowing in other contexts may be appropriate.

Here is a scenario of my own using Amy’s and Ken’s logic:
Shadrach and crew refuse to bow before the idol because it would be worshiping the idol – that is idolatry and blasphemy and they refused… later they see another believer on his rooftop bowing in prayer to the LORD… “You can’t do it that way they exclaim…” “Bowing is what the pagans do and you cannot redeem it” “Demons devised that position and to try and worship the LORD in that position is syncretism… get up man!”

Neil

374   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 3:40 pm

I’m glad I read your post before writing back Neil – exactly what I was going to say. Ken/Amy’s logic breaks down so quickly when put to a minor test…

375   amy    
May 2nd, 2007 at 4:00 pm

Neil and Chris,
Once again, you miss the main point, which is why I gave the Shadrach/bowing example. I almost put a warning, such as, metaphors are not to be taken point by point, don’t twist this, etc, etc, but what would have been the point?

The point of my example was this: They just refused to give homage – real or pretend – to a system that placed another God before their own God.

And by the way, I don’t really care if my logic falls apart in your eyes. I have God as a model that there as something that is higher than human logic. That he would have created humans knowing what they would become, and plan all along to rescue them in a way that caused Him suffering way beyond human understanding, is completely illogical.

376   Neil    
May 2nd, 2007 at 4:17 pm

“The point of my example was this: They just refused to give homage – real or pretend – to a system that placed another God before their own God. ” – AMY

And I agree. And if people put themselves in certain positions/postures as a form of worship to a false God it is paganism – we agree.

When people put themselves in certain positions it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

Neil

377   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:27 pm

“When people put themselves in certain positions it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.” She’s trying to tell you that in the case of Yoga it is derived FROM a worship experience in the first place and that CANNOT be redeemed.

Christians should have NOTHING to do with Yoga, it comes from a Hindu religion period. It is as foolish as saying Christian Islam or Christian Atheism. Yoga itself is a form of Hindu religion. If you want to do stretches, then do stretches; but those from Yoga have a meaning that cannot be divorced from their original context. It’s really not hard to see guys.

378   james    
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:40 pm

Ken,
First you say, “Demons devised it through pagan people as to how people would worship them and as such involves the person himself.”

Now you say, “it is derived FROM a worship experience in the first place and that CANNOT be redeemed.”

So which is it ken? Is it worship or is it just “derived from a worship experience”? MANY things are “derived from a worship experience.” Surely that is not the standard.

379   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:46 pm

Christian yoga isn’t really yoga, so it doesn’t matter – it’s just stretching exercises combined with the Word of God and prayer. Since it isn’t REALLY yoga, it seems that if we would just call it something different, it would then by OK… (being both facetious and not…)

380   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 2nd, 2007 at 5:50 pm

Is it cancer in the spleen or is it cancer in the liver?

381   amy    
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:10 pm

Chris and Neil,
Do you agree or disagree with these statements:

When people put themselves in certain positions it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

When people breathe in certain patterns it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

When people focus on one activity of their body, such as their heart beating, it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

When people repeat words it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

When people relax their minds it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

When people focus on good thoughts it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

When people imagine pleasant scenarios in their mind, it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

When people say words in a certain manner, it is not a worship experience-real or pretend.
__________________
When people do these things, together, in the ways recommended by followers of Hindu yoga masters, are they worship? What makes them worship? How many of the ingredients have to be present for it to be worship?

When Christians do these things, together, in the ways recommended by Hindus, what makes them worship? Which of these things needs to be left out, to prevent the Christian from “worshipping?”

I’m just trying to understand, from your reasoning, why your focus is on body positions? What is ontologically wrong with the other things in yoga? Why not do all of them?

Dreary morning
Is there any hope for me?
Can anything change my sad situation?
Only if that snake practices
The fine art of regurgitation!

382   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:12 pm

Ken,

You wrote:

Is it cancer in the spleen or is it cancer in the liver?

Does this mean that your answer to Neil’s question “Are there positions which are associatively evil” is “yes”, and your answer to the follow-up “Are there positions which are onthologically evil” would also be “yes”.

That seems to be what you are implying, but I would hate to put words in your mouth.

If so, then at what point when I am exercising, if I pray, am I committing a sin in the Book of Ken and Amy?

383   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:18 pm

Amy,

Despite your inability to answer two simple questions, I will answer yours:

When people put themselves in certain positions it is not a worship experience – True

When people breathe in certain patterns it is not a worship experience – True

When people focus on one activity of their body, such as their heart beating, it is not a worship experience – True

When people repeat words it is not a worship experience – True

When people relax their minds it is not a worship experience – True

When people focus on good thoughts it is not a worship experience – True

When people imagine pleasant scenarios in their mind, it is not a worship experience – True

When people say words in a certain manner, it is not a worship experience- True (words are not always connected with the heart)

[Just to note - all of these things are part of the Stanislavsky acting method, taught in both Christian and secular theater programs, as ways to be able to concentrate on how to accurately act and emote while on stage. I've never heard anyong describe Stanislavsky as worship.]

384   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:24 pm

I would add this:

When people (no matter what they are doing) speak or meditate on scripture – or pray – , and their heart, soul, mind and strength are in tune with the scripture and the prayer, it is a worship experience: True

385   amy    
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:26 pm

Didn’t mean to include the last part – it was from something I deleted. Can’t imagine why something about snakes had anything to do with this :) .

386   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:26 pm

ChrisL-

Great thoughts. Here’s info to the acting system you were talking about.

Are all of Amy’s questions mutually exclusive to yoga? No. It might even be anger management excercises.

387   amy    
May 2nd, 2007 at 6:38 pm

Chris,
So you believe that people can use all the breathing/relaxation techniques from yoga as long as they do them with Christian words, thoughts?

What about the elements of other meditative practices?

If you’re going to start pulling out “systems” from pagan practices and talk about using them as if it’s nothing, what you logically run into is that you can pull out and use all of the elements. In our logic, we may not be able to call any of them evil, in and of themselves. Even in meditative practices that alter one’s conscience you can take each little bit and say, “well, there’s nothing wrong there” etc. In the end you can look at all the parts separately, check them off as okay, and put them back together to have the same whole with which you started.

At what point can Satan “use” it as a “tool?” All of my arguing has focused on that I can’t know – I just need to try to be discerning in recognizing the system for what it has been and still is, and not assume that I am somehow “protected” when I copy a system that is trying to achieve union with the “Ultimate Being” who is not God.

388   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 2nd, 2007 at 7:24 pm

From amy’s last comment: “meditative practices that alter one’s conscience.” As an assist to what she said, as one who has closely studied the effects of meditation from various religious disciplines, I can tell you meditation does alter one’s consciousness.

I will also offer that it is likely God also sends them a delusion. No matter what religion the people talk of “a warm feeling of love and a sense of being one with God” – whatever they may call “it.”

389   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 7:45 pm

As someone who went through a 3 month study of lectio devinas with his small group, I can tell you that Amy and Ken’s fears are unfounded. Everyone who participated in the lectio devinas knew scripture backwards and forwards and understood it. We used scripture as our guide so none of us were even tempted to fall into heresy. Our states of conscience were not altered. We just allowed the God of Issac, Abraham, Paul, and the Holy Bible examine our hearts.

390   deborah    http://smallcorner.typepad.com
May 2nd, 2007 at 8:19 pm

Amy, for some reason your list of questions about breathing, focusing on one part of the body, relaxing, focusing on pleasant thoughts or scenarios, and repeating words or sounds reminded me of lamaze. If you expect all the answers to be yes, which seems to be implied, then using lamaze during labor would fall under the pagan/yoga/bad catagory. I promise not to pursue it any further after this, but I am curious if you have a problem with the lamaze birth method?

Thanks, deborah

391   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 9:42 pm

Ken,

You said:

As an assist to what she said, as one who has closely studied the effects of meditation from various religious disciplines, I can tell you meditation does alter one’s consciousness.

If your “close study” is as in-depth as your study of “emergent/emerging”, I’d trust your assessment as much as I would trust my 5th grade daughter to assess what’s wrong with my car’s transmission.

Amy,

You said:

If you’re going to start pulling out “systems” from pagan practices and talk about using them as if it’s nothing, what you logically run into is that you can pull out and use all of the elements.

So, we’re on the slippery slope yet again. *sigh*

I think it depends on how deep you go in defining what an “element” is – have you gone beyond what made it sinful, in the first place, and can you go that far.

For instance, I believe that a number of practices related to TM cross the border into divination, which is forbidden specifically by scripture. A number of pagan practices include animal sacrifice of some sort, which is forbidden. I can think of a host of things forbidden in scripture which would be wrong, even when taken to the elemental level.

With the matter at hand, though – which we keep getting beyong, into “theoretical” slippery slopes – the basic elements are – exercise, meditation and prayer. All three of these are supported by scripture.

You asked:

At what point can Satan “use” it as a “tool?”

I believe Satan can use many things as “tools” (beyond simple temptation) if we allow him to, or if we believe that he can. This, I believe, is behind Paul’s discussion on idols, meat and weaker/stronger brothers. If, in your conscience, you believe something is sinful, then your participation in it would be so.

392   Neil    
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:07 pm

“‘When people put themselves in certain positions it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.’ She’s trying to tell you that in the case of Yoga it is derived FROM a worship experience in the first place and that CANNOT be redeemed.”- Ken

Why?

Neil

393   Neil    
May 2nd, 2007 at 10:10 pm

“Christian yoga isn’t really yoga, so it doesn’t matter – it’s just stretching exercises combined with the Word of God and prayer. Since it isn’t REALLY yoga, it seems that if we would just call it something different, it would then by OK… (being both facetious and not…)” – Chris

True – if it were just called something else – the problem goes away.

394   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 2nd, 2007 at 11:14 pm

Neil – exactly! Which is why it was both facetious and not…

395   amy    
May 3rd, 2007 at 8:34 am

Neil and Chris,

What verses support redeeming pagan worship?

I’ve already seen some that I believe are taken out of context – such as the “all things are pure” and the idea of God making all things new. (Was “God makes all things new” a Message translation of Colossians 1:19; I’ve been wondering, couldn’t find it in my concordance.)

How did the whole idea of redeeming pagan worship practices get started? (How as in with what teachers, programs, etc)

______________
Unless you guys say otherwise I’m going to be left thinking , that yoga with all of its teachings – breath practices, exercises, meditative techniques – is okay as long as they’re “Christianized.” For example, then, scripture need not just be spoken and thought on, but repeated in certain ways, with certain breathing practices, and so forth. As in the “ma-ra-na-tha example, for starters.

I see according to your ways of thinking about “redeeming” and “that this thing can’t possibly be ontologically wrong, etc” that you must believe that one can be doing “Christian” yoga with the end result of arriving at that state of utter emptiness of mind where the Divine comes in.

Not trying to put words or thoughts into your mind, I just don’t see, according to your logic, how you can come to any other conclusion. I don’t see why, according to your thinking, you can’t take even the first video and have Christian teachers learn from it about how the mind works.

Likewise, I’ll assume that you believe that practices like TM are okay, as long as the mantras used are Christian words.

If I’m understanding Iggy correctly, this is where he already is in his thinking. I’m guessing that Nathan is about there as well.

396   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 8:38 am

“…that you must believe that one can be doing ‘Christian’ yoga with the end result of arriving at that state of utter emptiness of mind where the Divine comes in.” – Amy

I ‘ve seen repeated posts here saying that this is NOT the point of so-called Christian yoga. Why must mind-emptiness be the end result of meditation/contemplation?

Neil

397   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 3rd, 2007 at 8:42 am

We have repeatedly said that we are not interested in TM. What did you think of my post about lectio devina?

398   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:00 am

“Things outside of a human being, days, trees, etc. are not the person himself directly participating in an act of worship.”

What about Halloween? Most conservative Christians I know won’t have anything to do with Halloween. According to Silva, Halloween is ok???

399   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:14 am

Amy asked me to answer these questions.
She is “Q” I am “A” -

Q – When people put themselves in certain positions it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – Maybe it is, maybe it is not – the positions themselves do not make it worship anymore than sitting in church is automatically worship. It’s the reason for the position and the heart/intent of the person that determines whether it is worship or just exercise.

Q – When people breathe in certain patterns it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – Same as above…

Q – When people focus on one activity of their body, such as their heart beating, it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – Same as both above… if the goal is to enter an altered state to meet with a divine – it is unbiblical. If the point is just to lower your heartbeat to relax, or clear (not empty) the mind of distraction – then it’s not worship, not unbiblical.

Q – When people repeat words it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – Depends on the purpose of the repetition. This practice is usually associated with TM and the desire to altar your state of mind – that should be avoided, that should be avoided, that should be avoided…

Q – When people relax their minds it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – (I see a pattern developing here…) – it is impossible to say that realizing the mind “is” or “is not” worship. It may be, it may not be depending on how and why you are relaxing your mind.

Q – When people focus on good thoughts it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – I can focus on good thoughts and worship God for the blessings he’s given me – worship. I can focus on good thoughts and try to fly – Peter Pan. I can focus on good thoughts and thank some other so-called deity – paganism. Again – it depends.

Q – When people imagine pleasant scenarios in their mind, it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – I can focus on a pleasant scenario to take a break from my daily grind – relaxation technique. I can focus on a pleasant scenario and thank God for the memory – worship. I can think of my “Happy Place” to help me golf better – Happy Gilmore. I can think of a pleasant place as a way of attaining an altered state – TM — one again, it depends.

Q – When people say words in a certain manner, it is not a worship experience-real or pretend.

A – Impossible to know without knowinng the manner and the reason. If the manner is repetition with the goal of an altered state – it is worship, but it is wrong. If the manner is a responsive recitation of the Psalms – it is worship but it is good. As before – it depends.

So, as we have seen through all this. as we see repeatedly in the Scriptures… It’s not the outward appearance that matters, it’s the inward purpose that counts.

Neil

400   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:23 am

Amy also asked – “What verses support redeeming pagan worship?”

Herein lies the whole issue. There are no verses that allow nor prohibit.

Also, it’s not like “yoga” is redeemed worship anyway… as if Christians were trying to worship the true god using Hindu tactics.

More accurate would be saying “Thongs used in pagan worship voided of their meaning since those gods are not really gods at all.”

Neil

401   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:33 am

Does this topic really merit 400 comments? Well, 401 now.

402   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:35 am

Actually – I think the conversation between us and Amy has been insightful… beats just being called names by Ken and Chris P.

Neil

403   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:37 am

It just goes to show that it truly is a “freedom in Christ” issue. It is up to the individual, depending on his conscience.

404   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:50 am

beats just being called names by Ken and Chris P.

Bah-waaaah…

405   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 10:12 am

“It just goes to show that it truly is a “freedom in Christ” issue. It is up to the individual, depending on his conscience. ” – Matt

I’d agree to a point. An individual could pursue some of the wrongful elements of TM (such as mind-emptying) and not be bothered by their conscience… but I’ll assume you were thinking of neutral things such as meditation/contemplatin/imagination/etc….

Neil

406   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 10:13 am

“…Bah-waaaah… ” – Ken

?

407   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 3rd, 2007 at 10:18 am

Yes, the nuetral things were what I was referring to.

408   amy    
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:16 am

Neil asked, “Why must mind-emptiness be the end result of meditation/contemplation?”

If people are willing to use Hindu techniques that claim to accomplish this how can the Christian know that those techniques won’t have the same result in them as well?

How can the Christian guard his mind while using the techniques? How can “guarding” and “relaxing” and “emptying” work together?

Another of Neil’s examples:
” When people repeat words it is not a worship experience – real or pretend.

A – Depends on the purpose of the repetition. This practice is usually associated with TM and the desire to altar your state of mind – that should be avoided, that should be avoided, that should be avoided…”

Does it matter what the purpose of the repetition is? What if the purpose is to “meditate on God?” Can an alteration of a person’s mind only take place if alteration is their intention? I believe not.

And I don’t believe, using another example, that many people intend to come into contact with some spirit when they hear something like “Imagine this peaceful scene . . . ” Or when they hear something like the paragraph quoted from Richard Foster. But these are the kinds of things that are used in meditative practices, and they people meet spirits through them. How can we possibly know that they are neutral?

Neil says, “Also, it’s not like “yoga” is redeemed worship anyway… as if Christians were trying to worship the true god using Hindu tactics. ”

I think that many Christians try to use yoga for spiritual refreshment, and that it is part of their worship – why else are they using scripture, music, prayer?

Neil says, “Amy also asked – “What verses support redeeming pagan worship?”
Herein lies the whole issue. There are no verses that allow nor prohibit”

Isn’t “burn pagan altars,” at least leaning slightly towards prohibition? And why do all of the scriptures about avoiding false teaching apply? What if the pagan worship is “magic” and “idolatry?” Do passages on those not apply? What if the practices are evil? Do passages on evil not apply?

“beats just being called names by Ken” – The thoughts he’s shared about yoga here have been name-calling? If you would look at what Ken has said in this discussion instead of trying to rip it apart you might see that it has some merit.

409   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 3rd, 2007 at 11:39 am

Amy,

You asked:

What verses support redeeming pagan worship?

I have 2 minutes (literally) here, so I can’t do lookups and such, but I can give you this:

Your question has a false supposition in it. No verses support redeeming pagan worship. What they DO support is redeeming the “created” elements twisted by pagans – in this case, physical exercise, meditation and prayer.

Nobody here is suggesting that we can redeem pagan worship.

410   amy    
May 3rd, 2007 at 12:15 pm

How do we determine the original state of the meditation that we are redeeming from Hinduism?

411   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 3rd, 2007 at 1:34 pm

How do we determine the original state of the meditation that we are redeeming from Hinduism? – Amy

We meditate on God’s word, like He commands. We stay within core doctrines.

412   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:26 pm

“If people are willing to use Hindu techniques that claim to accomplish this how can the Christian know that those techniques won’t have the same result in them as well?

How can the Christian guard his mind while using the techniques? How can “guarding” and “relaxing” and “emptying” work together?” – Amy

So we are just going to slip into an altered state unaware of what’s happening because we assume a certain position and focus as being calm?

Neil

413   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:29 pm

Isn’t “burn pagan altars,” at least leaning slightly towards prohibition? ” – Amy

Sure… if the issue is worshipping pagan gods. But that’s not what anyone is advocating.

Neil

414   Neil    
May 3rd, 2007 at 2:42 pm

How do we determine the original state of the meditation that we are redeeming from Hinduism? – Amy

This pretty much sums up the whole difference between how I see the world and how Amy sees it. Strip away all the scenarios and we’re getting down to what is truly real.

What is real?
AMY: Pagans meditate to empty their mind so any meditation has the danger of mind emptiness. Therefore Christians should not meditate.

ME: Meditation/Contemplation are activities people do. If you meditate on the Word, works, person of God to better understand him it’s good. If you meditate on something else to empty you mind, it’s bad.

(In the above example you could insert all sorts of verbs, I just happen to choose “meditate since Amy asked about Hindu meditation)

I reject the worldview that gives this much power over the the spirits of darkness. A worldview says that believers need to live their lives in the fear that they may somehow slip into pagan worship. This is more akin to an Animist worldview than a Christian worldview.

Greater is He that is in the believer than he that is in the world.

Neil

415   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
May 3rd, 2007 at 3:13 pm

Amy, pagans created and run the internet to get accessible porn out to people. Seriously. If the internet porn industry were to stop today, the internet would cost nearly five times as much, and hundreds of thousands of people would go jobless. There is no doubt that it is a true pagan expression.

You, Amy, are sitting here on a pagan creation, using it for Christian purposes. You definately COULD open yourself up to a world of evil, yet you stay. How is this different? Could the devil and his demons not influence you while on his evil creation of the internet?

416   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 10:51 am

Neil,
You said that I believe this:
“AMY: Pagans meditate to empty their mind so any meditation has the danger of mind emptiness. Therefore Christians should not meditate.”

I never ever said that. I’m talking about using practices that aren’t biblical; unbiblical meditation is where my main concern is.

You miscontrue what I say. You oversimplify the practices that Christians are opening themselves up to that are not harmless and that are not biblical.

I’m not giving the spirits of darkness power. They have power, more than you know, more than any human can know.

I cannot look at a practices, such as meditative exercises that lead one to an altered state of consciousness and union with god or to yoga which has as it’s goal union with god without the mediation of Jesus Christ, and call them good.

You look at them and you call them good.

You, as well as Chris, I feel have tried to turn this into a discussion that makes it look like I’m against Christians thinking on scripture and praying while they’re exercising. You ignore the nature of yoga, which in and of itself is so anti-God with its focusing on union with the divine through another way than through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. it’s difficult to imagine how any Christian EVER had anything to do with it. You say you don’t believe it’s right for Christians to get into altered states of consciousness but you attack people who are saying, “Look, these kinds of practices can lead to that.” You act as if Christians have complete control over what happens in the spiritual realm. Right.

You present yourselves as against Christians getting into altered states of consciousness, yet you haven’t addressed Iggy’s assertion that doing TM is okay. You haven’t address Nathan’s remark that the more Christians knew about yoga the more they would want to do it.

Yes, Nathan the devil and his demons could influence me while I’m using the internet. But that doesn’t mean that I’m planning to attend a Satanist church tonight, or a Hindu temple service the next day.

It seems as if Mosaic would be against doing yoga in a “Christian” setting. It seems that they would think that yoga should be done in a health club, or even better under a Hindu teacher. Is that true?

417   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 11:00 am

Amy-

Your husband or your children could accidently stumble on a pornographic web site and get addicted every easily.

418   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 11:13 am

Matt,
We use IPCOP. It is not enough to block all that is truly pornographic but not classified as such (such as Fox news items re stars, etc) but it blocks a lot.

419   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

Which is why I use the Bible when I’ve done a Lectio Devina. Or someone could use scripture while doing stretching. It is a safeguard.

You using ICOP suggests that the Internet is a very dangerous place.

420   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 12:29 pm

Amy…

When did I ever say this?

“You present yourselves as against Christians getting into altered states of consciousness, yet you haven’t addressed Iggy’s assertion that doing TM is okay.”

I never did… and never would… as TM is much different that “christian contemplation” or using scripture and prayer while stretching….

I think you error in the matter of your statement about what I have actually said.

Blessings,
iggy

421   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 12:38 pm

The IPCOP turns off much of what is unacceptable for the Christian. That’s what makes it a safeguard.

If you’re advocating any and all types of meditative practices for the Christian, then you’re advocating metaphorically “turning on what is unacceptable for the Christian,” not safeguarding against it.

If you’re not advocating any and all types of meditation for the scripture, then you shouldn’t be trying to imply that they are all harmless.

If you do think that they’re harmless, and biblical, maybe you could write an article for this site with your findings.

422   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 12:52 pm

I’m just a commentor, so I can’t do an article on Christian contemplation/meditation on this site.

Here is the book I used with my small group:
http://www.amazon.com/Contemplative-Bible-Reading-Experiencing-Disciplines/dp/1576831086/?tag=fishtheabys-20

This was several years ago. None of us became possessed or afflicted with demons. We all still are Christians, participate in our local church, read the Bible daily, lead small groups, and are growing in our faith.

423   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 1:24 pm

Amy,

I addressed you on your accusation against me… will you address this?

I never stated anything as to what you accredited to me above…

“you haven’t addressed Iggy’s assertion that doing TM is okay.”

I never stated that… and do not know why you are saying this… I have stated the opposite…

If one is doing TM, they are not doing christian contemplation nor christian meditation or prayer… these philosophies do not equate…

Blessings,
iggy

424   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 1:24 pm

Matt,
It’s fine with me if you want to share your “good,” and “harmless” experience. I have to be honest and tell you that you have given me no reason to trust your judgement. I still say the following:

“If you’re advocating any and all types of meditative practices for the Christian, then you’re advocating metaphorically “turning on what is unacceptable for the Christian,” not safeguarding against it.

If you’re not advocating any and all types of meditation for the scripture, then you shouldn’t be trying to imply that they are all harmless. ”

The first question you ever asked me that I remember was something like this, “Would I rescue a man from a burning building with my Atheist neighbor?” The question implied that if I said yes to that, then I had absolutely no right to speak out against a pastor working together with a partial birth abortion supporter. A lot of your questions are like that – they attack the idea that there could possibly be a problem with anything, instead of trying to look at all angles of the issue, including the biblical angles. That’s why I generally avoid them.

And I think that you probably could do an article for this site. I believe it’s open to anyone who wants to address a problem at CRN.

425   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 1:36 pm

I have not implied, suggested, or said that all forms of mediation on scripture are harmless. Any TM is dangerous. Any TM on scripture is dangerous. Mediation on scripture is not.

426   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

Iggy,
Sorry, I simply didn’t see your question earlier.

Here’s what you said previously, “We all agree that chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian” I hope no one is arguing that is good… yet to say Jesus over and over in prayerful adoration… or to say Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord… in worship is not the same at all… neither is to empty oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation… Yet, to say that John of the Cross or brother Lawrence did the same thing as Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi teaches is the same thing is an insult to God…
__________
I found that statement confusing and asked about it, because you seemed to put theTM in with what you feel is “good.” In answer to my question about being confused, you said,

“Amy,

Yes i am saying;”Are you saying that emptying oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation” has no relation to “chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian?”
(Or am I misunderstanding you?)”

The BIG difference is that a Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit… we have been bought and paid for… we are not our own…. we are a NEW CREATION… so what we do is “in Christ”.

many have really bad theology on this topic… but I recommend Maj Ian Thomas as one great source… or read Classic Christianity by Bob George to see what it means to be “in Christ”.”

The “is not Christian” part is confusing and I don’t know how it is supposed to fit.

Also see my May 1 8:10 post and your 8:19 post
______________________
In summary, you answered my previous request for clarification with this: Yes i am saying;”Are you saying that emptying oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation” has no relation to “chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian?”

This combined with your statements about doing things “in Christ” “not being under the law” “EVERYTHING being pure” led me to the conclusions I came to.

427   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 2:01 pm

Matt,
“I have not implied, suggested, or said that all forms of mediation on scripture are harmless. Any TM is dangerous. Any TM on scripture is dangerous. Mediation on scripture is not.”

Please consider that there are people who are convinced that some of the practices Christians use are practices that are “Christian” counterparts of practices, including TM-like practices, that are unbiblical and dangerous. Listen carefully to what they are saying.

428   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 2:26 pm

I also consider the character of those who recommend Christian mediation. If they are kind, caring, involved with their local church, obedient to His Holy Word, and doctrinally sound, then I take that as a recommendation and something should look into.

However, if the person is bitter, nasty, angry, given to creating problems in church, nittpicky, authoritarian, but doctrinally sound, I will take that as someone who could use some fasting, meditation, and solitude. Get right with God and then criticize.

429   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 2:41 pm

Amy,

Please consider that there are people who are convinced that some of the practices Christians use are practices that are “Christian” counterparts of practices, NOT including TM-like practices, that are not unbiblical nor dangerous.

Please consider that local churches who do offer Christian “yoga” have had these approved by Christian elderships who have examined the curricula and practice of these classes and determined that TM-like practices are not occurring.

430   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 4:37 pm

Matt,
Some thoughts regarding decision making:

You can usually find men and women of all types of characters on both sides of all issues.

Your own ideas about an issue can cause you to view a person’s character subjectively instead of objectively. For example, I don[’t think I have shown bitterness or nastiness in this argument, yet you accused me of making a mean comment to Chris (regarding looking up stuff on the internet); you also said one of the meanest and untrue comments I’ve ever seen about myself, about being bigoted. Did those comments come to me because I am nasty and bigoted, or did you assume that the comments were nasty and bigoted because you don’t agree with my viewpoint?

431   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 6:23 pm

Amy,

You are really misunderstanding what I have said… in fact it is so far off track I am wondering…

I said very clearly, that to empty oneself and go “ommmm” which is TM to let whatever in is NOT CHRISTIAN… and is not the same as meditating, praying, and contemplation… These if they are on Christ and done in the Spirit and in Truth (remember that part of this conversation?) while stretching is far different…

I hope you will retract your statement about me and if you might then re-read the previous one will see what I did say…

Yet, I do not see as you to that what many practice as “Christian Yoga” is the same thing nor has anything to do with Hindi Yoga… as i stated also before…

I hope that is clear enough for you….

Blessings,
iggy

432   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 6:38 pm

Iggy,
I asked, “Are you saying that emptying oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation” has no relation to “chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian?”
(Or am I misunderstanding you?)”

And you answered,

Amy,

Yes i am saying;”Are you saying that emptying oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation” has no relation to “chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian?”
(Or am I misunderstanding you?)”

It really wasn’t clear to me, especially with the part about “in Christ” immediately following, as well as the talk about EVERYTHING being pure.

433   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 6:59 pm

I think that being wary of TM and open to yoga is an oxymoron.

Wondering if anyone else thought along these lines, I found this: http://www.christiandoctrine.net/doctrine/articles/article_00009_transcendental_meditation_web.htm

434   james    
May 4th, 2007 at 7:11 pm

Amy,

You should know that we are talking about meditating on God while exercising when we use the term yoga. Most would say that this is not even yoga at all; therefore, being wary of TM and and open to “yoga”(meditating on God while exercising) is very reasonable.

435   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 7:31 pm

Meditating on God:
This is the direction some Christians are going. This is one of the things those concerned about contemplation are concerned about.
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&aq=t&ie=UTF-8&rls=DGUS,DGUS:2006-15,DGUS:en&q=christian+transcendental+meditation

There are other parts of this series you can listen to as well.

436   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 7:34 pm

Amy,

I think you confused yourself by misquoting me in the first place… or rephrasing what i said… i may have missed that it was not “exactly” as i stated…

Here is the actual quote…

“We all agree that chanting “ohhhhm” to get into some altered state of consciousness is not “christian” I hope no one is arguing that is good… yet to say Jesus over and over in prayerful adoration… or to say Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord… in worship is not the same at all… neither is to empty oneself to let “whatever” in as those i know do who practice TM or other styles of meditation… Yet, to say that John of the Cross or brother Lawrence did the same thing as Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi teaches is the same thing is an insult to God… ”

Notice the word “other styles” meaning those related to TM in which one empties themselves… TM is not the only one that does that.

It is not the same as worshipping God by prayer meditation on His word and His presence or contemplation….

To compare Brother Lawrence to the Maharishi
Mahesh Yogi is an insult to God….

I am not sure how much clearer I can make this nor do I desire to tread ground with you when you do not seem to catch to big difference between these things…

Blessings,
iggy

437   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 7:49 pm

I understand that you are saying you don’t support TM – I was trying to show why I was confused.

There can be a difference in saying “Jesus” again and again in prayerful adoration and what is being promoted by some. But I think it is wrong to assume that repetitions are prayerful adoration, or to speak against those who are speaking against it, without knowing what all the issues are.

If you listen to the audio above your last comment, it’s just a sampling of what I’m aware of that is going on. It’s talking about developing a practice of repetition, that is used to bring one into the presence of God. Something one MUST do twice a day. I imagine if you listened to all these tapes and made a chart comparing this with TM, that apart from a different vocabulary you’re going to end up with very much the same thing.

I was in a group once in which this repetition practice was introduced. It seemed quite harmless, quite spiritual, yet I questioned it because it was supposed to be “powerful.”

This kind of teaching fits into the word-faith philosophy really easily.

438   james    
May 4th, 2007 at 7:59 pm

“Meditating on God:
This is the direction some Christians are going. This is one of the things those concerned about contemplation are concerned about.”

You would have to take “meditating on God” to an extreme for it to be wrong. Again, let’s not mistake things that are concerning with things that are wrong.

439   amy    
May 4th, 2007 at 8:12 pm

James,
The quote is connected with the audio following it. Did you listen to it? It does take “meditating on God” to an extreme.

440   james    
May 4th, 2007 at 8:21 pm

The link took me to google search results. Regardless, I think we agree that the extreme situations are wrong. Many other things can be taken to extremes, for example alcohol.

441   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 10:08 pm

Amy,

They why is it so hard for you to say your sorry for misrepresenting me… as it is with Ken and many others? It is almost like saying sorry is a sin…

But that is ok I still forgive you…

As for you link… it is a Google search proving what? I see that I have spent way too much time on this topic… so don’t do it if it is a sin to you… be it “Christian” or not… as the scripture I referred to as saying… yet as it also says… if we that see it not a “sin” (Christian Yoga) should not lord it over you nor you look at us as lesser that we enjoy our freedom in Christ…

Blessings,
iggy

442   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 10:50 pm

I believe I apologized to you Amy for that comment.

“Ok, my questions/accusations were out of line. I apologize.”

If you can’t accept my apology, that’s not my problem. That’s between you and God.

443   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 10:57 pm

“Something one MUST do twice a day.” -Amy

Something I’ve heard Ingrid say is that emerging/emergents teach that one must use lectio devina if you want to have an effective prayer life. I have never heard anyone say one “must do lectio devina” and if they have, they are wrong.

444   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 11:06 pm

lectio devina is only one form of meditation… it gives God a chance to speak instead of just relying on our own rationalistic thinking…

If done one can gain insight…of scripture and of themselves… yet that is not the ONLY way nor have I heard it ever said that one “must do lectio devina” to have a effective prayer life… I think that is taken care of by the Holy Spirit and one needs to sometimes shut up and just let that inward groaning speak… in that the Holy Spirit then intercedes with us…

To me reading scripture is not just to gain “knowledge” but to get to know Jesus… it is a time to hear Him speak… most are too busy “thinking” that they often miss what God has to say to them.

blessings,
iggy

445   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 11:10 pm

Here is a decent video on lectio divian. This is as far as I will go in meditation. I don’t do it all the time and don’t say that one has to do it this way in order to be a good Christian. No, I’m not a Catholic either or headed that way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jqqWZuo5cg&mode=related&search=

Here’s another humorous video. I’m usually the studious bible reader. :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFs_yiRxHC4

446   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 11:48 pm

Hi all:

There is an extended version of the lectio divina video I posted. It has a shot of a naked baby, which might be offensive to some. I’m not sure if it will offend, but just in case you go watch the 9 minute version, I just wanted to point it out. The baby image is an attempt to be a visual reference to Psalm 139.

447   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 4th, 2007 at 11:51 pm

Why would a naked baby offended anyone?….. oh yeah I forgot there are some that see dirt everywhere they look…

“To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.”

Blessing,
iggy

448   amy    
May 6th, 2007 at 5:06 pm

The link I meant to go to before was connected with the teachings of John Main. The link following isn’t exactly the same link, but if you’re ever interested in what he’s teaching, you can find some of the tapes through this:

http://www.wccm.org/home.asp?pagestyle=home

On one site connected with John Maim, I read different testimonies about people who hesitated to follow his teaching because it was from Hinduism; however they realized it was the purpose that mattered. Many people will use “Christianized TM” or other types of “Christianized” meditation for the same reasons many of you feel you can use yoga.

Matt,
I know you apologized and I appreciate it. I hesitated to bring the issue up again because you had apologized, but I thought it was the best way to illustrate that you can seriously misjudge people simply because you disagree with them.

Iggy,
I am sorry if I misrepresented you. However if you will look back at the discussion you can see that I tried to make sure that I WASN’T misunderstanding. When your reply was basically, “yes, I did say that” with some “in Christ” stuff following, I really don’t see how I could have come to a different conclusion.

But blogging with long stretches of time in between and many people in the conversation can be confusing . . .

I’d like to be done with this discussion for now.

449   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 6th, 2007 at 9:32 pm

Amy,

Me to…
= )

Blessings,
iggy

450   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
May 6th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

Amy,

Also sorry about the “you people have a hard time saying sorry” statement as I know you are not one of “those people” I spoke in haste.

Blessings,
iggy