“Why is there such a thing as Christian Yoga? It certainly has no scriptural or biblical basis in support of it.

Why is there such a thing as a Christian Website?”

They are not the same thing, and no the logic isn’t similar.

One is using the available technology to spread Truth.

The other is syncretism.
The intyernet is neautral and can be used for good or evil.
Yoga is a religious practice used in the worship of gods other than Yahweh.

Your intellectual “heavy lifting” consists of painting styrofoam balls black, and writing 25lbs lbs on them;hence the term dumbells.

What’s a “screed?”

That’s why I’m a safari guy. I hate IE. It rewrites too much of your stuff.

hahahah, that pic! But I don’t have an IMAC! I’m a G4 guy. Maybe I ‘m not being tricked then? That might explain why I still believe in Creation. That is priceless.
….Could this be why Ken called me apostate?

Aha!

Well, I use FireFox, so I’m set already.

Now is there a logic-checker for any web browsers?

No NO no….Addendum #5 in the footnotes is the funniest. Read it! He apologizes for accusing some girl of being on drugs.

Objective Ministries is a parody site, according to Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OBJECTIVE:_Ministries

This is not to be sarcastic, but if I had never met the original Slice/CRN2.0 I would have never believed it.

The weird thing is that they link to real sites, like http://freehovind.com. It’s for a Creation Scientist who was imprisoned for tax evation. Nice!

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=2007704200332

Amazing; are you guys seriously this obtuse, “In both ‘Christ-Follower Yoga’ and ‘Yoga of Christ-Followers’, the ‘Christ-follower’ remains a noun, referring to a person, not the yoga itself.”

“Christian Yoga” is a title for an activity that “Christians” think they have sanctified, just as the ancient Church once “sanctified” pagan holidays, etc. So call it “Christ-Follower Yoga” or “Yoga For Christ-Followers” it’s still adopting something of pagan origin and try to use it while followers of Jesus.

Jesus never did Yoga but He probably did “stretch” His muscles. The point is: Doing exercise is one thing, borrowing postures used in pagan worship as that exercise is to violate the spiritual principle of being set apart e.g. underlying Lev. 18:3.

Ken

For the record, “Christian Yoga” doesn’t mean yoga for Christians. The “Christian” is informing the reader that the “yoga” is not Hindu, but follows the practices of the Christian faith. But, this is a small issue…

As a pastor, you should know that body positions cannot be pagan. The worship that takes place during those positions can be pagan, if worshiping a false god. However, I will say it again. I don’t see how standing an praying is ok, but when you lift your foot to your knee, it suddenly becomes pagan.

Funny enough, the finishing poses in Yoga are laying prostrate on the ground. Many Christians lay prostrate before God. I guess that will have to go too.

I don’t know where you stand on tattoos, but so often people use this type of scripture to condemn them. It wasn’t that God was saying no tattoos… he was saying do not tattoo yourself as a worship of the dead (as pagans do). He wasn’t saying don’t have sex, he was saying don’t have sex in grotesque manners (as pagans do).

We could say God isn’t saying not to do body stretches while praying, he is is saying not to worship hindu gods while doing body stretches.

“But this is why dialogue is almost impossible with you guys because you just cannot seem to hear spiritually for all your bluster to the contrary.”

We should have expected a line like this from you. This basically says, if you don’t agree with me then you are spiritually blind (because you are the only one in the world apparently that can hear from God correctly.)

Ken,

Are certain postures pagan ontologically, or because pagans use them? Just trying to understand your position (no pun intended).

Neil

The Bible commands us to pray with our hands raised. So do other “world religions”, not to mention many attendees of secular rock concerts.

So, obviously, we should immediately disobey Scripture. Wouldn’t want to inadvertantly worship the wrong deity by using the wrong (or tainted) body posture.

Reading this thread has become akin to gawking at a car wreck. Joe pondered why he wrote here, I sometimes ponder why I read. That said, I still want to see Ken answer the Easter/Christian origins question. Both holidays have pagan origins. Christians adopted them and made them Christian holidays. This nearly parallels this yoga issue, but I bet every year Ken and his Bible study get together, drink egg nog (non-alcoholic of couse, as alcohol is also intrinsically evil) and sing Silent Night.

So the below means that Silva doesn’t celebrate Christmas??? Neither does Chris P?

““Christian Yoga” is a title for an activity that “Christians” think they have sanctified, just as the ancient Church once “sanctified” pagan holidays, etc. So call it “Christ-Follower Yoga” or “Yoga For Christ-Followers” it’s still adopting something of pagan origin and try to use it while followers of Jesus.”

Nathan,

“you are the only one in the world apparently that can hear from God correctly.”

You know, after dialoguing with you gentlemen here and reading your rants, I’d have to say the same thing to you.

I feel like Ken’s argument is backwards (which gets to the heart of Neil’s twice-ignored question). That is, because “pagans” twisted something to fulfill their spiritual cravings, something which God created, we are not able to take back God’s creation and claim it as our own.

Stretching in any position – while not explicitly stated in the Bible – is a function of our natural creation, not an invention of some other world religion.

In addition to the Christmas and Easter celebration, I must ask if you Ken engage in sexual activity? It too is used as worship in Wicca and was used specifically in the Bible to worship certain gods. Surely you don’t prohibit yourself and/or others from sex?

Ken, this is merely my interpretation of your writings, so I encourage you to answer Neil’s twice-ignored question. (I probably shouldn’t have written those first six words, as Ken will copy and past those and respond only to that statement. Now that I’ve predicted Ken will do such, will he still?)

Getting Silva to explain to us his beliefs on Christmas is like trying to get MacLaren to explain his views on homosexuality.

Chris,
Since you quoted me without giving the rest of the conversation, I’ll replay some of it here.

You said here, ” Amy suggested that this could be similar to worshipping God in the high places in the OT . . . ”

Previously I replied to that idea,
“No comparison? Yoga is used to “worship” other gods.
The “high places” were used by Canaanites to worship other gods. The high places were to be destroyed and worship in the “high places” was forbidden. See I Kings 3, Nu 33:52, Dt 7:5, Deut 12:3 -7. ” (There are even better passages that show this relationship.)

Nathan then pointed out: (Comment from nathan
Time: April 24, 2007, 6:03 pm)

“Amy,

yoga is not / was never used to worship other gods.”

You then said, “As Nathan pointed out, Yoga was not a form of “worship”,”

Ken Silva then gave this reference,
“The word “YOGA” (and other associated words) is Sanskrit. Sanskrit is the prayer language of Hinduism and is to Hinduism what Latin is to Christianity, or Hebrew to Judaism or Arabic to the religion of Islam.

* The word “YOGA” translates into “Spiritual Union” which is the identical meaning of the word “RELIGION.” (Therefore it is an “obvious” fallacy that “yoga” is not “religion.”)

http://www.classicalyoga.org/Page31.html ”

The article cited by Flynn gives even more evidence that the goal of yoga is “spiritual union with the divine.” Not worship?

Anyway, the way I see it, you’re not willing to look at the nature of the high places that were to be destroyed, not used as places of worship. Also, you’re ready to take Nathan as an unquestionable source, but not willing to consider the true nature of yoga.

In this case, perhaps you would do better to listen to Rob Bell that Nathan, because Bell seems to think that Yoga has something to do with worship: From Rob Bell’s breathing sermon, “And the Yoga Masters say this is how it is when you follow Jesus and surrender to God. Is it’s your breath being consistent. It’s your connection with God regardless of the pose you find yourself in. That’s integrating the divine into the daily.” (This is copied from AM)

Also, I admit, there are no scriptures that say, “Thou shalt not practice yoga” but there are certainly many that could apply to the situation. I don’t think you’re willing to consider such a thing because you will automatically consider that “legalism.” Does God have to spell everything out for us? Doesn’t he expect us to know Him, to know His principles, and to make decisions accordingly? I am reminded of another conversation I had with you on abortion. You started telling me that not all Christians think that abortion is wrong. You then started citing specific verses that some use to say that abortion is wrong, not as a way of demonstrating that those “Christians who don’t think abortion is wrong” were wrong, but as a way of showing that there really isn’t outright proof that it is wrong. You seem to think that God has to spell everything out for us for us to know that something is wrong, or questionable. Could it be that you’re just missing the bigger picture? In the case of abortion, abortion is murder. Period.

In the case of deciding on right and wrong, we have principles in the Bible, and the Holy Spirit. Does that mean that everyone has to agree on everything that is right or wrong? It doesn’t happen, does it? But what is happening is that Christians who believe that things are to be avoided and that Christian leaders, especially pastors, shouldn’t promote them, are called “legalistic,” instead of the leaders considering that they need to strongly consider how the Bible applies to many “questionable” things. So the “free” Christians, who want to talk about how “gray” things are, can actually end up being more dogmatic about what is good and what is bad. Bad = anybody questioning anything which is not specifically stated in scripture; Good = people who have become “free” and are out feeding the hungry and taking care of AIDS patients.

Some questions I would ask regarding Christians participating in yoga:

1)Have the teachers who are teaching “Christian” yoga come to grips with the significance of the pagan nature of yoga, where many of them probably learned yoga in the first place?

2) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while practicing yoga? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she entered into the trance state through yoga.

3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as various types of healing?

4) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” meditation practices to enter into a trance state, to meet “Jesus?”

5) How on earth do scriptural principles about avoiding pagan practices apply in this day and age? We’re not going to have a written list of “Divination =A; Magic= B; Pagan worship =C. Yet according to your thinking, if we start naming things, we’re being legalistic.

6)What if a pastor who promotes yoga leads another believer into a place where he is unintentionally worshipping the undivine divine. Does the passage in Luke warning about leading people into sin (in this case “these little ones”)apply?

We could spend all day talking about, “this is only a body position,” etc, etc. Or we could consider the possible implications of messing with something that is pagan. God never said “Adapt pagan ways.” Never.

I think someone should buy Amy a gift certificate for a Christian yoga class just to show her that it’s just stretching.

1)Have the runners who are teaching “Christian” marathon running come to grips with the significance of the pagan nature of marathons, where many of them probably learned marathon running in the first place?

2) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while running the marathon? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she ran the marathon.

3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as wrestling?

4) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” jogging practices to enter into a trance state, to meet “Jesus?”

5) How on earth do scriptural principles about avoiding pagan practices apply in this day and age? We’re not going to have a written list of “Divination =A; Magic= B; Pagan worship =C; Olympic Sports = D. Yet according to your thinking, if we start naming things, we’re being legalistic.

6)What if a pastor who promotes marathon running leads another believer into a place where he is unintentionally worshipping the undivine divine. Does the passage in Luke warning about leading people into sin (in this case “these little ones”)apply?

Matt,
Seriously, I believe that if Christians understood the nature of yoga and the nature of the enemy in the first place, they wouldn’t be so quick to jump into it, or perhaps I should say, stretch into it.

Regarding the Christian yoga course coupon – maybe you could send a donation for the new-to-me bike I just got (haven’t had a good bike for years, so I’m really excited about being able to tackle the hills around me.) I have always like sports and I once considered buying a Pilates course because I was told that it was “just stretching” – but when I read the box for the video, I decided I couldn’t. (Sorry I can’t remember exactly what it said.)

Besides scriptural cautions, my own experiences have made me cautious about just accepting pagan-associated things as harmless. I would rather err on the side of being too careful than on the side of opening myself up to the demonic. I don’t know if you ever read my comment to Neil regarding my experience with being semi-hypnotized when I unintentionally participated in a form of pagan healing.I think the same kind of thing could happen even with “Christian” yoga. Do I know that? Absolutely not. But then, neither do you know that it is harmless. It’s easy to look at someone with “bad experiences” such as Brian Flynn, or my own mentioned above, and call them “straw men” arguments. I’ve read other books by people involved in New Age stuff as well, and feel that there goal is compassion. They know the horror of what they’ve been through, and they don’t want other people to go there.

Regardless of what might or might not happen, there is scripture to consider. I have read up on Hinduism some and used to have a copy of their main religious text (I was planning to go to a Hindu country.) There’s some awful stuff in that religion. God hasn’t stopped being a “jealous God” and I just can’t see him smiling on our accepting “things of other gods” so readily.

Chris,
Can you see if my last comment to Matt got filtered somehow. I just wrote it.

Todd,
I said,
2) What is to prevent people from having “Christian” experiences while practicing yoga? I read yesterday of how some woman met Jesus when she entered into the trance state through yoga.

You said, “Is this a bad thing?” Yes, it’s a bad thing if it’s another Jesus. And people have met “another Jesus” through various pagan techniques, for example theophostic healing. A vision of a peaceful loving Jesus can come, who will then do something immoral or completely out of character with Christ.

You can find all kinds of people “meeting Jesus” through all kinds of pagan practices. He may even seem like the real Jesus instead of one who gets distorted. What a great way for Satan to trick people into believing that they belong to Jesus.

I said, “3) What prevents a Christian from simply “Christianizing” other very pagan practices such as various types of healing?”

You said, “Does the healing work? If so, nothing.”

The Bible says that false prophets will perform all types of miracles, including healing. The question is not, “does it work?” but “Is it of God?” and “Am I being obedient to God in the first place by participating in this pagan practice?”

Ken,
Not sure which post you were referring to, but thanks.

Amy, you never mentioned “another Jesus” in your question. I naturally assumed you meant THE Jesus. You’re bringing up a completely different argument with your response to my response than you did in your original question.

To the heart of your new point, just because somebody – not everybody, mind you – experiences a “false Jesus” doesn’t invalidate an entire practice.

Another great trick Satan uses is turning brother against brother, causing one to bring unfair judgement against another. I’ll give up yoga if you give up CRN.

Oh, as to Amy’s comment “You can find all kinds of people “meeting Jesus” through all kinds of pagan practices. He may even seem like the real Jesus instead of one who gets distorted. What a great way for Satan to trick people into believing that they belong to Jesus.”

What does it mean to “belong to Jesus?”

Maybe Amy will answer my question about the pagan ontology of certain body positions sinc ken refuses.

Neil

It’s funny the things that people oppose.

Because some misuse contemplation techniques for things that are obviously unbiblical – anything resembling contemplation is wrong.

Because Hindu’s advocate certain stretching positions in worship, Christians should not assume the same stretching positions.

Yet, other things that are used and abused are not opposed – why?

I am not willing to give Evil so much power over my life that I refrain from things that are neutral because someone, somewhere, at sometime abused it.

If you say a physical position is evil – you are giving evil more power than it deserves.

Neil

How do you accidentally worship a false God?

This is pure conjecture on my part but I’d venture to say that Amy doesn’t have a problem with pagan Greek culture because, for the most part, nobody worships any of the Greek gods anymore, while Hinduism is alive and well. She is able to separate the two by saying Greek gods are fiction, yet Hinduism is active. I would also venture to guess that Greek culture is from the West, therefore not as evil, and Hinduism is from the east, and inherently more suspicious.

Ken has said running is ok because it isn’t tied into any culture. Everyone runs. However, competitive running, and the way we’ve done it, is directly tied into the Ancient Pagan Greek culture.

It makes no difference to me. I think it matters to Amy, Ken, and Chris P.

Scratch that, Pan is still worshipped by some today:

“Despite the declaration of his death, however, Pan is widely worshipped by Neopagans and Wiccans today, where he is considered a powerful deity and an archetype of male virility and sexuality, called the Horned God.”

So, one could be running a marathon, and like Pheidippides, meet Pan.

And yes, no one has answered the holidays questions either. I think they are afraid to admit it. It makes them look like JWs.

Does anyone remember when Star Wars came out? I had a ton of the toys. And then we went to a Darryl Dunn Crusade. He preached on the evils of Star Wars. I had to give all my toys up because somehow flying the Millennium Falcon was worshiping “New Age” style.
So I gave them to my neighbor and played with them over there, when he was home.

The lie about your opponent which you then paint him with.

The strawman is the lie that you paint about your opponent: that his views are based on his self-imposed weakness, and that he is expecting everyone to cowtow to his position.

Amy, I hesitate to get into this, but I’m not sure what you mean by another Jesus. I know a lot of people who do Yoga, and I’ve not met one of them who do it to worship anyone. There is only one Jesus. If you meet “another Jesus” you didn’t meet him, so of course that would be bad, but I’m still chewing on the “other Jesus” thing.

1) What’s wrong with having a Christian experience while practicing anything? If you are jogging and thinking about a passage in the Bible you read earlier in the day and God uses that passage at that moment, that’s great!

2) I’ve heard of Muslims becoming Christians because they meet Jesus in a dream while they sleep. I have no problem with that.

I even think people could meet Jesus in the middle of a pagan practice. The real Jesus. I don’t think you can contain God.

3) The health benefits of stretching are well documented. Since the body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, by all means, let’s Christianize stretching. Vodoos practice animal sacrifice. There is no benefit, physical or spiritual, to sacrificing. That, to me, is out.

The point of my saying “if it works…” is that I don’t believe healing works. If it did, we would have a different discussion. Since it doesn’t, to use it would be a lie, and therefore completely different from yoga.

There is no such thing as another Jesus. Either it’s Jesus, and they’re truly transformed, or they’re not. I don’t buy into the idea that once you “accept Jesus” (whatever that means) you’re done. If somebody feels that they have “accepted Jesus” and then nothing in their life changes, it’s our job as followers of Christ to correct them – this is true no matter how they came into contact with Jesus. If they believe Jesus and live as He directs, then I don’t believe it matters how they arrived there.

Oh, I found it! Sorry I missed that. I thought for a second we were saying God doesn’t heal today.

“I thought for a second we were saying God doesn’t heal today.”

Doh! Rewrite:
“…I don’t believe healing outside of the Holy Spirit actually works.”

Amy,

I, personally, share your concern of meeting “another Jesus” and pagan healings, but let’s not use these issues to distract from the argument at hand. We have to be extremely cautious not to get caught up in the religion/prayer/worship of yoga, but let’s not forbid good exercises just because they can be used for evil. If we do forbid these exercises we also MUST forbid Christmas trees, marathons, pagan language, etc. I think we can agree that while in an ideal world these things would not be used, but in the real world, that is a little extreme. Really, though, I understand your concern, but let’s not confuse things that are concerning with things that are wrong.

James,
I think the issues related to pagan healing are critical to looking at the whole issue of yoga. People take pagan methods of healing and “Christianize” them, and think that by doing so they’re reidentifying those methods as gifts of God. They do all the same “moves” such as accessing someone’s energy and making moves to realign it. It all looks the same on the surface as it would if a non-Christian were doing it, yet because the practicioners are Christian they relabel it “Christian.” Christians who receive treatment by pagan methods often don’t even recognize them as pagan. They participate in such things as energy alignment, distance healing, hypnosis, etc.

Why should we assume that Christians can even recognize pagan when they are participating in a pagan activity? Why do we assume that it will bother them much if they do recognize it as pagan? And why do we assume that they will recognize “another Jesus” as such. These are some of my concerns.

I have zero experience in yoga; I do have experience being the “victim” of pagan medicine. There are really lots of parallels between the arguments that Christians use for and against the two.

Amy,

you seem to not have a very good grasp on this issue (and aren’t answering the questions regarding running, Christmas and easter). The difference between energy alignment, distance healing, hypnosis, etc. and Christian yoga is that you cannot separate the action from the pagan practice. In order for them to “work”, you have to call upon pagan gods.

In yoga, there is the pagan meditation, and the healthy stretches. They are two elements. So, we take out the pagan meditation and have people recite scripture in their mind. That makes it Christian yoga, not pagan yoga.

Since so many of us were so willing to answer your questions, would you answer these?

1. Christians have taken the once pagan holidays of Christmas and Easter and made them “Christian” holidays. Should we stop celebrating them because they are/were celebrated by pagans?

2. If I stand a pray is that a sin?

3. If I stand, and lift my foot to my knee to stretch, does it suddenly become a sin?

4. Would it be wrong to take pagan bar songs and…say… change the words and turn them into Christian songs?

5. Would it be wrong to take those bar songs turned Christian and sing them as worship songs to God?

Deborah,
I haven’t had time to read all the comments here – many I’ve just scanned. I’ve had a hard enough time addressing questions that I felt were directly related, without answering questions that are indirectly related. There are always “other questions” around issues and it can be helpful to look at them, or it can be a distraction. I could spend a lot of time answering questions about holidays, running, etc. They aren’t going to change my feelings about the danger of yoga.

Answering those questions isn’t going to help me “prove my point.” Neither is not answering them. So I choose to just leave them. Even if I chose to address them, I couldn’t have gotten around to it – timewise – yet, without giving up something else I needed to be doing.

Last night I was wondering about how many of the “healing-related” things I have brought up to Nathan have their roots in Hindu philosophy, as does Hindu. Energy healing does for sure. I can’t help but think that God allowed the experience that I had with this for a reason. My participation in it was unintentional; the person who was doing it is a Christian leader; he said he had no idea why it worked. I didn’t know what he was doing, yet ended up at least borderline hypnotized. If you look at energy healing, I think you could find many similarities behind its history and its goals to yoga.

You can find story after story about people who end up “oppressed” who believe they ended up that way because of unwittingly or unwisely participating in some kind of “new age” activity. Some people deal with these issues for life. Even young children can get “spirit guides” through visualing taught in classrooms. There’s enough stories about these things out there that I think that people shouldn’t just scoff at them.

People can share all kinds of stories about playing with New Age toys, etc, and decide that their experience legitimizes all other types of participation. It doesn’t change the reality of the pain that people go through because they are experiencing demonic oppression.

It’s not possible in these kinds of discussions to “prove a point.” It is possible to try to think of relevant scriptures and to communicate one’s own belief that something needs to be avoided.

Chris,
There is always “discernment” needed. What I see over and over is an outright rebuttal of considering that many who view something as potentially spiritually destructive and unbiblical aren’t given an ear. The immediate reaction is to start reacting to their “legalism,” and to misunderstand their motives.

I haven’t read much of Brian Flynn so don’t want to start “defending” him, but I think that someone from his kind of background, who has possibly suffered demonic oppression from what he’s gone through has a heart that wants to help other people avoid what he has gone through.

Instead of listening to warnings to “put on the lifejacket, the waves are high” those who are being surrounded by high waves want to discuss the silliness of wearing life-jackets in creeks, how high a wave has to be before it’s dangerous, whether or not the waves are in and of themselves ontologically dangerous. Christians who feel strongly about certain issues may have been somewhere in their spiritual lives, in a good or bad direction, that gives them some credibility. Sometimes it’s better to listen and learn at least a little than to automatically get defensive.

Amy, it sounds to me that if you are right about Yoga, you are dismissing the high waves that Deborah brought up about running.

Answering those questions isn’t going to help me “prove my point.” Neither is not answering them. So I choose to just leave them.

Amy,

The fact is, many of these questions will prove our point. Not answering questions because they will not prove your point is not very fair in discussion. I would appreciate and answer on my five (I have always tried to address yours here). I think you might have a change of hear when you are confronted with the hard issues.

Further comments from MacArthur. I love how he uses the weaker brother scripture, like we’ve been using:

“Most people do not even know about this religious superstition. Similarly, few know anything about the worship of trees. When a child pulls a large present out from under the Christmas tree and unwraps a large model cargo plane, no one views that object as an idol. Nor do we view the Christmas tree to be some kind of gift god. We understand the difference between a toy and an idol just as clearly as we understand the difference between an idol and a Christmas tree. We see no valid reason to make any connection between Christmas trees and wooden idols or the worship of trees. Those who insist on making such associations should take note of the warnings in Scripture against judging one another in doubtful things (see Romans 14 & 1 Corinthians 10:23-33).”

Hi everyone, wow this issue has really opened a can of worms. This is the first time I have posted on this site and I would like to say right off the bat that I am cautious about these practices that Christians are accepting. As Christians we need to be careful not to take anything that the world does or is pagan in it spiritual origins slap “Christian” before it and call it good. I read CRN often; I also read stuff out of the emergent camp as well. CRN can and does take things way too far; however I think that they do serve a purpose, if approached properly. Please folks do not minimize that fact that deception is making its way into the church. The New Age spirituality has arrived, learn about Alice Bailey(GodMother of New Age Spirituality) and the books that she channeled through a spirit guide. Understand that she said that her movement would make its way into Christendom. There is a lot to learn on both sides of the isle in Christianity, is there anyway we can stop fighting and come together to whip out deception? I hope so. CRN needs to stop questioning peoples salvation and start positively sending out the warning to the church, Emergents need to stop being so flippant with their spirituality and understand that we fight a spiritual battle and if they are not careful then they could be deceived. God Bless all

Ken, that isn’t really something to be proud of. It’s actually a quite embarrassing response on a blog where discussion is the point, not preaching.

We take the time to answer questions, why do you feel you’re above lowering yourself to do the same?

Really? Is Amy one of the “we?”

Oh, and I fully recognize my logs, I’m just not sure this is one of them.

You know I want to bring this out as well, the original blog stated the following “Jesus didn’t call us to play it safe – he called us to serve: heart, soul, mind and strength. ” The Bible is full of warnings for believers to not be deceived.

Amy, I meant no disrespect by my comment by the way. I too appreciate your presence and comments here.

If you ever want to you, you can be a “we!”

Thanks for the sympathy everyone. Amy isn’t one of the “we” here or there, and I think that “we ALL” – you all PLUS Ken know that. I don’t think Ken meant the remark unkindly by the way. But then I think you all are thinking that I’m pretty low on discernment right now, so you all probably think I’m wrong about that .

I will say again that answering all your questions will not have an affect on how I look at yoga. Sorry if I seem lazy, unfair, or whatever. There’s just no point.

I could tell you however, what the end of all the discussion would be (a little appeasement, and no, I’m not claiming to be a prophet.) The end of the discussion would be “That’s illogical. She can’t look at A in that way without looking at B in this way, and so forth. ” So, sigh, I’ve saved us all a lot of time . . . .

But please do remember that these kinds of arguments, A is similar to B in some way, therefore if A is wrong, then they both have to be wrong, can work all kinds of ways. A person can say “A is similar to B in some way, therefore if A is right, then they both have to be right.” Some will take your arguments for Christian yoga, or arguments for doing secular yoga because it’s really not “religious,” and apply them to all kinds of things: Christian healing, as I’ve shown some above, and some will take them and apply them to all forms of meditation, as is already happening. Just remember that if you are ever convinced that something is going to be harmful to the body of Christ and want to warn people of it.

And again, Chris, THIS argument also reminds me of the way some look at a person who is anti-abortion. How can a person consider abortion wrong if they aren’t a pacifist? I could get in a discussion like that in a number of places, and feel guilty, and that I needed to absolutely prove my logic. Are I could simply think, I know that I’m not going to change my mind on my anti-abortion stance, and I know I CAN’T PROVE ANYTHING to everyone who thinks differently.

Amy,

I have said this before, but it seems like you have had alot of bad experiences with new age practices in the past. Because of that, I feel like you may have a sensitivity when anything about that subject is brought up. Much in the same why that a person who has been molested as a child will react more passionately against it than someone who hasn’t.

This is ok, but you have to be aware that this might be a possibility. And, overreaction to a subject is not only likely, but expected. With that, you might ask yourself, am I reacting to this because of my past, or because of biblical principles.

Yes, bad experiences, and more than I’ve described or could describe. And through them God allowed me to see the terror of the nature of the spiritual world that many folks don’t really believe in. And scripture supports the experiences, “Satan creeps around like a roaring lion, in search of someone to tear to pieces.” (my own wording)

Is my reaction to those things an overreaction? I recall reading a book about Warsaw and the Jewish ghetto there during World War II. There was a young man from Warsaw who had been taken prisoner and put in a concentration camp some time before the Jews started being taken away from there. Somehow he came back, and he started telling people what was going on “on the outside,” in concentration camps. Hardly anyone believed him.

Yes, he had bad experiences in the concentration camp. But those experiences were reality, and represented the reality of many other concentration camps. Was he overreacting by trying to warn those he loved about the danger?

Did the fact that he had had the experiences change the nature of the concentration camps? No, and the fact that I’ve had experiences with the demonic world doesn’t change the nature of the demonic world.

My experience gives me a deep understanding of why I should be very cautious about getting involved in pagan things. But what the bible says is the most important thing; there are plenty of biblical principles that apply to many things we’ve discussed. But honestly, when have we (as in all of you and me) ever agreed on how biblical principles should be applied? Hardly ever, for sure.

Matt,
You said,” In addition, I think there are some racial/cultural bigotries that you are starting to reveal. Like Ingrid doesn’t like rock music because it comes from Africa and isn’t as good as White Classical Music, you are bigoted to physical activity that come from a nonwhite culture like India and think physical activity that has roots in Greek culture is superior.”"

Guess again. I spent many years preparing to live in India (couldn’t ever get in because of visa problems). Also I spent a couple of painful years of my young teen-age life being ostracized by the popular white kids who had previously been my friends. Why? Because I would not abandon one of my friends who, horror of horrors, liked an African-American boy.

I have also lived among and made my life’s work to several other races, given much of my life to them – all brown-skinned except for one. I count some of them my best friends.

It’s all I can do to refrain from making some very angry comment that I will later regret.

Ok, my questions/accusations were out of line. I apologize.

I’d love to see an answer to Chris L’s questions.

I love how Ken ad Chris P. don’t mind their amen choruses. But when someone agrees with us… watch out!

Nathan,
The main issue is that I read the OT a lot, and I continually see in it a God who does not want his people to be involved in pagan practices. (And these things are clear in the NT as well.)Yoga is incredibly pagan, and the movements are an essential part of the whole thing. To start talking about separating its parts might make sense to our logic, but does it make sense to God? My understanding of the Jews worshipping in high places that had been used for pagan worship, that some of the people may have been trying to separate their worship of YAHWEH from pagan worship in their own minds. But some (many ?) of them saw their worshipping in the high places as a way of appeasing the Canaanite gods. When God declared such worship disobedience, they were simply expected to obey, without trying to justify or reason regarding what they were doing.

Also, I realize that the experience that I had with the energy – healing is so much like what could happen to someone practicing yoga, even “Christian” yoga. I can’t separate the one from the other – and I believe that if I were to do an in-depth study of the two that why I can’t separate them might become even clearer to me. I do know that they are both about “realigning energy.” The experience went beyond my understanding, and I know that now, if I were to willingly participate in such an activity, it would be disobedience on my part.

God forbids a lot of things because Satan does use them. I would rather be on the “too careful” side, than the offending God or opening myself up to Satan side. I often think of God’s love for Israel and his description of himself as a jealous God, one who loves Israel and wants the best for her, and hates to keep seeing her walk down the paths he has forbidden, because He loves her. If there is any possibility that in any practice I could inadvertently be honoring a religion such as Hinduism, with its multiplicity of gods, instead of demonstrating allegiance to God, then I won’t practice it. Because I love God; I know that I often fail Him – I want to keep from intentionally doing it as much as I can. For me “keeping from intentionally doing it” means avoiding things in which I have experienced some type of power that doesn’t come from God.

You have a good point about the Jewish boy, but “All Germans are definitely not Nazis.” could be proven.” Can we prove that “All Christian yoga has lost its connection with Paganism.” You think so, and I think not. Who is right? This may surprise you, but I honestly don’t know, with my “head”. But I do know that the scriptures about separating from Paganism speak to me loud and clear here. If there is some possibility that there can be some demonic activity going on there – then this is not a Romans 14 situation of “meat offered to idols.” It is a situation of knowing what spirit is present in the practice – and perhaps even more importantly, what spirit is at practice in getting Christians to accept it. I do believe that Satan works gradually at getting people to accept things that they shouldn’t, to draw them further and further away from Him.

Would you disagree or agree that it is even possible for Christian yoga, done in a healthy and biblical way, to be good? Based purely on my “feelings” I think I could say something really definitive like, “well, maybe, um, well . . . ” Based on the Word of God and the way I believe the Holy Spirit is leading me, I say I disagree.

I think that anyone teaching a “Christian”class such as you you described should require her students to do the following reading before they join class:

readings on yoga (starting with wikipedia) and investigation into all the various types
readings on new age
readings on testimonies from people who have been spiritually damaged from new age practices
the whole bible

Nathan,
You mean, would I think it was okay for them to do it? No. Would I stand outside and holler and scream at them? No.

That should be “open” not “opening.”

Here is a question about Yoga, if you are truly doing it for the physical then take out the spiritual aspect out of it and just do the stretches. Without some knowledge of the roots of this practices someone can open themselves up a spirituality that could deceive them.
Why try and reach Jesus while doing a practice in which Hindu’s have done for centuries to contact their false gods?
Here is another question, in all the case in the Bible in which a person had an experiance with God was it something that God initiated or the person initiated.
Amy you have done a great job at debating, keep it up.

Jeff,
Thanks. More than I can say.

Jeff said, 1)”Here is a question about Yoga, if you are truly doing it for the physical then take out the spiritual aspect out of it and just do the stretches…Why try and reach Jesus while doing a practice in which Hindu’s have done for centuries to contact their false gods?”

I don’t really like the idea of chanting scriptures while doing yoga either. I wouldn’t forbid it, but I would recommend being very careful.

2)”Without some knowledge of the roots of this practices someone can open themselves up a spirituality that could deceive them.”

Christians should study and understand the risks before they jump into anything. I think some may open themselves to spirits by being in a certain state of mind, not by being in a certain body position.

3)”Once again, like Amy said, study the roots of this stuff before you blow off the Watchmen….. ”

I certainly don’t want to blow you guys off. Thank you for pointing out the origins and possible dangers of yoga. We take your cautions to heart, although, it’s really hard to see how doing certain stretches is any more dangerous than gathering around a Christmas tree.

“how do you even fit your head through the door”

hahaha… this coming from god… I mean Ken.

Chris and Nathan,
I’ve been wondering for quite some time if the divide between our thinking on yoga may be at the root of our differences in how we view “Christian” yoga.

I wasn’t expecting to “prove” anything – but your answers make me wonder if I did. Just to make sure I’m understanding you, are you realizing that this site may be trying to take out ideas that would make yoga distasteful to some Christians. Do you realize that even if that weren’t the goal of this site, that it would influence people to think of yoga as not unconnected to religion, to anything supernatural?

It assures us that “Yoga is not a religion, is not magic, is not mysticism.” Can you look at the wikipedia examples of yoga and say that this is absolutely NOT the case?

good post iggy,

Sorry Chris L for the “slippery slope”.

Why is it that we has Christian have to take an ancient Hindu/ Buddhist spiritual (oh btw it is good for our physical well being) practice and slap Jesus on it and call it good?
I understand Christian Liberty, I am not a fundamentalist Baptists who believes that drinking a beer will send you to Hell. However, as Christians we need to be cautious with spiritual practices from pagan religions. Doing the physical exercise that is found in yoga is not wrong, I think adding a spiritual dimension to it could result in possible deception, especially for the unlearned naive Christian.
I know that the EmChurch wants to engage culture but the truth of the matter is we are supposed to be set apart from the world.
Guys from this site and others need to find a way to find middle ground with CRN and CRN needs to find a way not to nitpick with everything in the “dicernment” arena. I visit that site often but really got ticked when I started to see posts where they were questioning the salvation of others. I think CRN might want to take a step back and evaluate which battles to fight otherwise they could start to lose their faithful.

God Bless all, won’t it be fun someday to be in heaven watch Chris L and Ken bickering and arguing over stuff? God will put their Mansions right next to one another. HAHA

I just can’t imagine how if I had ever in my life participated in yoga with any understanding of what it was about on a spiritual level, I could even think of “redeeming” it into something Christian.

Chris L said

“I know a number of people who take martials arts for self-protection – and have had to use it. Almost every martial art I am familiar was, at some point, used in Shinto or other oriental religions, yet I don’t hear cries for closing local dojos from the church.”

That is because it is set apart from Christian in a spiritual sense. Open up a Christian martial arts class and you will see the watchdogs start to complain. The concern is the acceptance of the historic pagan concepts infiltrating Christianity.

One thing I think I think is lost in all this is that many of watchdogs have a biblical world view that there is going to be great deception in the last days, even among Gods elect.

Our Christian faith is set apart from all others and the Bible indicates that in the last days there will be a mixing of religion into one with a one world government. The Watchdogs see that Christians seems to disregard this.

I know under the Brian McClaren form of Spirituality the last days concept is overblown but I think this is where we have a great divide. I like what the watchdogs do in the sense of keeping me up on the latest Christian trends, they do go overboard with their critizm but I understand that and consider it when I am reading their material.

http://blogs.echurchnetwork.net/Newsletter/permalink/00003.aspx

Here is the link sorry

No, it’s not OK at all, I am saying the reason why watchdogs say anything about it is because it is coming into Chrisitanity. Thanks Jonbean for reading what I said without reading what I said….Deception is not going to slap you in the face and say “I AM DECEPTION”. Watchdogs are trying defending the orthodox faith they are not trying to go into other religions and practices and tell them they are wrong. They are trying to keep the garbage out……

Jeff, you are right that deception will not slap you in the face and say ” I am deception” but in the same light, it’s possible to see deception where it doesn’t exist. It seems to me that a group of people who meet to exercise and talk about God is pretty straightforward. Now at the same time, if they are saying that the way to connect with God is to align our bodies in a certain way, that would be deception. Is that what happens at “Christian yoga” gatherings? Maybe at some, but certainly not at all and maybe not even at most. We should be kind and discerning enough not to assume things that we don’t know for sure. If our discernment is based on what other people say about things, it’s not discernment but simply reacting to what our friends or aquaintances have said, and that doesn’t pass the test of discernment. Nobody has answered the four very pertinent questions posed here and I think they have not been answered because they aren’t quite so neat and tidy to dismiss as the yoga thing. It’s one thing to say that yoga is evil in any form but it’s another to apply that point of view completely consistently and give up Christmas trees and Olympics. Jeff, I’m sorry that my previous comment was so irritable. Hopefully my perspective is presented in a more appropriate manner in this comment.

Matt,
Don’t lump me in with anyone, I have a personal stance on this issue, that is all, I was never asked those questions. They were specifically asked of Amy……
There are a lot of things that Ken and his group do that I don’t align with and there are things that the emergent camp does that I do align with.

This issue I think it Christians need be very careful, it sounds like a lot of you don’t take this issue flipently. My concern is the blurring of the lines between historic pagen practices and beliefs and Christianity. We need not mix our unique spirituality with others out there.

Yoga was developed by pagan Hindus worshipping demons and meditation was developed in Buddhism, Sufi Islam and Hinduism, both Yoga and mediation have been then “borrowed” from those pagan religions in an attempt to “Christianize” them.

These religious disciplines, which were not practiced by Judaism, Jesus or His Apostles, were NOT created by God and are therefore NOT to be received by Christians – period. On the other hand, celebrating days, foods, etc. fall into the above Scripture, but certainly NOT the “spiritual disciplines” created with the help of demons in pagan religions.

Ken, I though God created EVERYTHING and it was good. Are you saying that people can create outside of God? If you had said that people took yoga and perverted it, I might agree with you, but to say that God didn’t create something that exists seems to give credit where it isn’t due.

Amy, I respect your opinion and I don’t have a problem if you want to asbtain from something because of your concerns but I have to decide for myself what things are okay (with my husband). I try not to base my discernment on fear but rather on faith.

Deborah,
We all need to make our own decisions, and we all need to be able to communicate why we believe what we do.

I don’t consider my decision one of fear, but of faith. I absolutely know that God is stronger than Satan. I also know that He is a God who wants my obedience, and through his help, I’m trying to be obedient.

Jeff,
I watched the breathing/yoga video by Rob Bell; it disturbed me a lot.

“Are you sure you want to own that? So God created Baal worship? God created Hinduism? God created Buddhism? God created Islam? God created Satanism?”

If you are from a reformed tradition (which you aren’t… I guess), God did ordain them.

I thought I might throw some fuel on this already ridiculously huge fire

answering questions might lead to answers different than what they believe. Not answering the questions keeps the argument on their terms. However, it pretty much just shows that they are unwilling to accept the truth.

Regarding the High Places:

Isa 36:7 But if thou say unto me, We trust in Jehovah our God: is not that he, whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath taken away, and hath said to Judah and to Jerusalem, Ye shall worship before this altar?

And said to Judah and Jerusalem – He had commanded them to worship only in Jerusalem, at the temple. This was in strict accordance with the law of Moses. Barnes

The Hebrew word for alter is Meso Beoch. The Meso Beoch is the most important picture for Christ in scripture. Blood atonement was made upon the Meso Beoch.

High places in hebrew is Bemoat; Hezekiah had taken the high places away; Blood atonement was made upon the Meso Beoch.

Idolatry doesn’t begin by the worship of other gods, idolatry begins by worshipping the true god in unbiblical ways. Israel began their idolatry by worshipping Jehovah at some other alien high place; not by worshipping baal or molech but by worshipping not according to Jehovah’s commands.

The hebrew term for idolatry is not worshipping idols it is ‘avoda zara’, which simply means a form of worship which is alien to scripture.

There is in Leviticus the account of strange fire; they were burning the fire to Jehovah but in an alien way, not according to scripture:

Lev 10:1 And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took each of them his censer, and put fire therein, and laid incense thereon, and offered strange fire before Jehovah, which he had not commanded them.

The term for unbiblical worship and the term for idolatry is the same term. Once you begin to worship the true God in an unbiblical way you will end up in idolatry. It is the path that gets you there; it’s inevitable.

Regarding Another Jesus:

Another example is the hebrew word for husband, master and owner which is ‘Bal’. Jehovah was Israel’s Bal. The Canaanites had their Bal. They had their god with the same name. If you begin to worship the true god in an unbiblical way another god gives a counterfeit.

Hezekiah realised this and he tore the high places down.

Notes taken from a sermon called ‘The attack on the Remnant” by Yakov J Prasch of Moriel Ministries.

Amy-

I am concerned that fundamentalists are adding to unnecessary rules to Christianity. It is a spiritual concern. I have a close friend who first came out of the Catholic Church, then converted to protestant fundamentalist. She constantly struggles with feelings of guilt because she doesn’t think God loves her. That is from both her Catholic and her fundamentalist background. And she is one of the most godly women I know. I have to constantly remind her that God loves her. That’s a shame. This is the spiritual damage that the Catholic and fundamentalist churches have done to her. End of story.

Please answer our questions. Don’t be a wuss.

OK – obviously bantering hypothetical scenarios is more likable than discussing spiritual realities – I guess I’ll wait until another subject comes up later.

Neil

I get frustrated at discussions that skip past the spiritual/biblical realities and head straight to the anecdotal “What about…’s”

For example – every time I’m in a discussion on the possibility of losing your salvation someone says “Yeah – but I knew a guy who…”

OR

Whenever I talk about the uniqueness of Christ someone asks, “Yeah, well what about the guy who never heard…”

We do not determine our theology by anecdotal “What about…’s” – we determine our theology by the study of Scripture and reality and then apply that to scenarios.

So, regardless of what anyone thinks about my questions – BEFORE any stories or scenarios or situations are bantered about – before all this lies the reality in which these stories function.

SO – in reality;
Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?
Are certain postures/positions associatively evil?

These questions must be answered (and whether or not you tell us, you have decided if you take a stand) before we start talking application.

Interpretation must proceed application – Please!

Neil

Ken, why do you refuse to answer Neil’s questions? Do you feel they’re not addressed to you?

If so:

Ken Silva, Pastor-teacher, president of Apprising ministries and editor of Christian Research Network (dot com), please answer these questions:

Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?
Are certain postures/positions associatively evil?

Thank you.

Ken, Amy, Chris P. et al;

I understand most of our exchanges are regrettably rather hostile. Therefore I understand the hesitancy to answer a question since it may be a trap.

That is not my point at all.

Before we start saying certain posture/positions are evil, or certain behaviors are pagan we must answer the question “What makes something pagan?”

Before we start proposing all sorts of scenarios of application we must first answer the underlying questions regarding truth apart from our experiences.

If you believe certain positions are evil by there very nature – fine… please just say so and tell me why you believe this.

If you believe certain positions are evil because it’s what Hindus do – fine… please just say so and tell me why you believe this.

Again, it’s not a trap, just an attempt to understand how you determine what is Pagan/evil and what is not. Then we can discuss with a stringer mutual understanding.

Neil

Whether I agree or disagree with the conclusions is made all the harder when fundamental presuppositions go undefined. basically, I’m just trying to get someone to say what their foundational presuppositions are…

Neil

Iggy,

That may be true. On the other hand, I tend to believe there is a different underlying reason. Obviously Ken and Chris P. firmly believe they occupy the high ground. And in many ways it is much easier to prohibit than to permit. They may want to just keep from taking a position, but I do not think this the motivation for not answering.

I believe they (all three) cannot answer the questions because they know that certain posture/positions are not ontologically evil. Therefore, if they are evil (which they have stated to be) they must be through some biblical declaration or pagan association. Since the Bible is silent on positions/postures, then they must be evil based on their association with pagan/Hindu practices.

But, if the latter is the case, then all you need to do is remove them from the association and they return to a neutral position on a good/evil continuum. If you deny that they return, then you are saying once a pagan does something, that thing becomes pagan… ontologically.

The Christmas tree is the perfect example of something we have all disassociated from paganism. Precious few Christian would see it as fixed in its paganism due to use.

Ya know, now that I have put all this in writing I see, probably their refusal to answer the questions is due to the logical conclusion the answers would take them to…

Neil

Matt,

That is a great example – a gesture into which we have poured meaning… and the meaning could be removed as well.

Question is, at what point does a meaning change then? Can the general culture or subculture remove a meaning from something – such as a gesture or symbol? If so, how? If not, why not?

Neil

Actually, a lot of people here, myself included, are concerned about “mind- emptying, conscious – altering meditation?”. I think just about everyone who posts on this site disagrees with that. I don’t like TM and don’t feel it is appropriate for Christians to participate in that.

As for stretching, relaxing, learning proper breathing, mediating on scripture, I have absolutely no problem with those activities.

Amy,

RE: “You keep asking, ‘Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?’ as if a ‘no’ answer to that from one who is concerned about Christians practicing yoga would negate everything else they’ve said.”

This is an assumption you are making. I don’t know that it would negate it, but either way the responsibility is on the answerer to justify their interpretation with their stated applications.

If you say “Yes, certain positions/postures are evil in and of themselves” – then you are free to make the application that yoga requires these positions therefore it is wrong for a Christian to do so. ‘Course, you also need to defend how/why they are evil in and of themselves…

If you say “No, positions and postures are not evil in and of themselves.” Then you need to defend how they become evil before applying their prohibition to the Christian life.

Either way – interpretation comes before application. Obviously you have already interpreted, I’m just trying to find out what that interpretation is.

Neil

Chris,
Okay, now that you have lots of scripture in hand, do some research on meditation as used in yoga and other new age practices. Look at the practices, look at the goals. The Bible does not promote mind-emptying, conscious altering meditation practices that allow one to be under the control of other spirits and the influence of whatever words, ideas the one guiding the meditation wants to place in their minds.

Neil,
As far as people know it was created initially by Hindus.

As far as people know, pasta was created initially by Buddhists (the Chinese). Does that make it bad?

Correction, according to wikipedia, pasta was invented in the Middle East. The noodle was created initially by Buddhists (the Chinese). Does that make it bad?

Amy,

If that is an incorrect assessment of what you mean – you can just correct me. The frustration I face is your lack of willingness to discuss the basic presuppositions on which you build your interpretations. Futility seems to be my hope for clarity from you, Ken, Chris P…

You made the comment “As far as people know it was created initially by Hindus.” – I was simply looking for a reason that you made the statement… how that fosters futility I do not understand.

Had I asked “what do you mean by…?” would I have gotten an answer?

Neil

Ken’s excuse is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and the research he’s done.

Neil,
My basic presupposition is that I need to be loyal to my Savior, God’s Word is relevant for today, that the Holy Spirit can guide us in how to apply it, and that Satan is a roaring lion, and an angel of light.

If I don’t apply the principles I’ve learned from scripture that I believe relate to practicing yoga as “evenly” as everyone thinks I should – researching ALL of the pagan influences in our culture, including idiomatic phrases, days of the week, modern conveniences (that’s a new one) etc, etc, and then get them all out of my life completely – well then, I’m sorry, I just can’t live up to your standards. Neither can anyone I know.

This discussion started off with a discussion of Rob Bell, yoga. It was quickly switched to “Christian” yoga. At some point I realized that the root issue was really not “Christian” yoga, but simply yoga. It’s been an enlightening conversation.

Amy, your response

Ken’s excuse is the Word of God, the Holy Spirit, and the research he’s done.

highlights how poor a communicator we are or how poorly you’re reading what we’re writing. We are saying that Ken (and you) aren’t basing your arguments on the Bible, but upon external principles based upon your experiences or your preferences.

This “argument” is nothing more than a rehashing of the food sacrificed to idols argument Paul dealt with 2000 years ago. This conversation should stop and let Paul’s authority stand.

If I ever meet you, I won’t engage in yoga. If you come across me and I’m currently engaged in a yoga activity (highly unlikely) I would ask that you not condemn me. How’s that sound?

Does it say anything about the state of the Church when we can spend five days and 220+ comments arguing about whether or not yoga is a sin?

Again, thanks for the cautions. We got it.

Im sorry if I came across as mean. I am a littlefrustrated that we have been arguing for 5 days about standards that Amy and Ken can’t even apply themselves. It is hypocritical to tell us to have standards that you don’t keep yourself. Thats not mean, just a fact.

Neil,
“Ya know, now that I have put all this in writing I see, probably their refusal to answer the questions is due to the logical conclusion the answers would take them to…”

I think you got it… and that is what I try to point out… but Ken will not face his own logic… in fact I think he may be afraid to…

I keep asking questions that do not fit his blanket statements and he dodges them and them makes mocking statements to me to divert the attention away from himself…

In that what really happens is he appears more shallow… and mean spirited.

Funny thing is most my comments have scripture literally cut and pasted in the sentence.. and Ken calls me ignorant and not worthy to listen to… I quote the word of scripture and he says it is not worthy to be listened to… funny huh?

Why, because it does not fit his theology… as he filters all scripture through his theology and then misses what it actually says…

Ken is not a bad guy… I hear he is a friendly person at least on the phone… but I wonder… is he jotting down notes to “get” that person later… keeping a list of wrongs to accuse that person later?

One can only wonder…

The saddest thing is that I think that Ken does have some great things to offer… yet until he faces that he is harming the Body of Christ and not edifying it as the gift of the calling of pastor/teacher is purposed to do… he will not be taken serious by anyone other than those who will Amen him… as they too filter through their theology to justify their hate and slander…

If Ken stated, “I see that the use of Yoga if done in the style of the Hinduism… can lead to dangerous areas for a Christian.” I would have nothing to say against that… but to tell me that Chuck Swindoll is using Hinduism style meditation is ludicrous… Ken has condemned Chuck and also for that matter Tozer whom Ken quotes quite a bit…

He needs to define his words as to what they mean… otherwise he looks like all he wants is to stir the manure pile to make a fresh stink…

Blessings,
iggy

Chris,
“You have suggested a “new” principal – if something has been “tainted” in its usage by pagans, it cannot be redeemed for Christian usage. If this “new” principal is truly scriptural, it should be something that could (and should) be consistently applied.”

Actually Chris, you are the one who has been talking about redeeming yoga, not me. Hindus didn’t taint yoga, they created it. Yoga is part of a religious system. It is part of a religious system and as such all the passages that apply to Christians and paganism apply to it.

I see nothing in scripture about redeeming religious systems, but rather redeeming people who have sinned and need to be cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

This thread should never have switched to “Christian” yoga. I gather that most of you don’t have a problem with yoga, period, from what you have said. It isn’t a religion, nor magic, nor mysticism, nor worship, according to you. You refuse to see a problem with meditation practices used in it. How you expect to recognize if a Christian yoga leader is using meditation practices that can put you into an altered state of consciousness and open you up to deception, I don’t know.

Reread what I said about the I Cor 11 passage. I believe that participating in yoga could be participating in pagan worship.

I don’t necessarily agree with every little bit of what Virginia shared, but some of the principles she shared are right on target. God never asked the Israelites to observe the pagans/religious systems around them and learn to worship as they do.

Iggy,
Whatever scripture I “pulled out” wouldn’t suit you because you and I have a totally, TOTALLY, different way of interpreting scripture.

“James, that seems a little harsh. I don’t believe that Amy is a hypocrite because she feels uncomfortable with yoga. ”

Nor do I. Though I am frustrated that our discussion has remained so superficial and anecdotal. Seems we just cannot break through to the underlying presuppositions.

Neil

…these folks at CRN.Info are certainly giving Satan far less credit and power than he deserves, or is capable of, and we are foolish to trust our fallen human reasoning in a spiritual realm we have zero control of…

Some suggestions for “Christian ” meditation:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm

Notice that “The Maranatha Mantra has been taught extensively by Father John Main and Father Laurence Freeman through their organization, the World Community for Christian Meditation.”

(Note to any new readers: I am not recommending this or the aforementioned site.)

“I let scripture interpret itself in context of the book, the other books and the historical context… all under the guidance of the Holy Spirit…”

I would say so do I and I would see from her arguments, so does amy. You guys just don’t seem to be able to hear.

iggy,

Not to those with discernment and not to those who actually understand the English language.

I love this quote from Tozer. Could he be talking about Silva?

“You can be straight as a gun barrel theologically and as empty as one spiritually.” -Tozer

For his thoughts on the mystics:

“For inner nourishment, Tozer turned constantly to these masters of the inner life. He sat long and lovingly at the feet of these saintly teachers drawing water from their wells with reverence and gratitude. He lifted thankful eyes to God for the men and women who taught him to desire the better way: Nicholas Herman of Lorriane, Nicholas of Cusa, Meister Eckhart, Frederick William Faber, Madame Jeanne Guyon. Only two stipulations did Tozer make: that his teachers must know God, as Carlyle said, “otherwise than by hearsay,” and that Christ must be all in all to them.

Tozer discovered that the companionship of Christ had to be cultivated. That is why he withdrew so often and spent so much time alone. “You can be straight as a gun barrel theologically,” Tozer often remarked, “and as empty as one spiritually.” Perhaps that was why his emphasis was not on systematic theology but on a personal relationship with God. For him it was a relationship so real, so overpowering as to utterly captivate his attention. He longed for what he fondly referred to as a God-conscious soul—a heart aflame for God.”

“will you just continue to dissemble?”

Ah, she’s deconstructing your arguments.

iggy,

Dr. John MacArthur meets all the qualifications of your “pastor” role, but you don’t listen to him either. Nice try though.

I am often asked “Was Dr. Tozer the greatest preacher you ever heard?”
No, but he redeemed the time and hence had an intimacy with God beyond any other man I ever met. He was a modern mystic who had given priority to the lost art of meditation. To enter into Dr. Tozer’s presence was an awe-inspiring event.

- Leonard Ravenhill

Not all pastors within The Christian and Missionary Alliance were pleased with Tozer’s openness to those who did not toe the denominational line. They did not like the direction in which he was facing their denominational magazine. They thought it should be more of a house organ, focusing on Alliance activities. They complained that Tozer was speaking to the whole world and not just to The Christian and Missionary Alliance. A few also objected to Tozer’s generous use of the medieval mystics whose writings delighted him so.

ken and amy, you are still dodging the consistency issue. At least Chris p (I believe he said he does not celebrate Christmas or Easter)is attempting to be consistent.

Let’s look for middle ground.

Christian meditation(mystics) has been debated for a very long time. There is an abundance of information about this topic. So let’s agree that people can research it themselves and draw their own conclusions. I will not fault you for your decision to abstain but please do not fault others if they decide its ok.
Much smarter men than we have ended up on both sides of this fence.

Amy,

RE: “Some suggestions for “Christian ” meditation:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm”

Regarding “Christian” as an adjective, I would like to ask… ummm, never mind.

Anyone want to answer either of my original questions?

Neil

“angry personal attacks”

I’m not angry…O, and any personal attacks leveled at me here? You guys will have to do a lot better than this to even take the smile from my face, let alone bother me. peace.

So, because some here have leveled attacks at you it’s acceptable for you reciprocate to me. For the record, I don’t think you’ll find any personal attacks from me – attacks on your hermeneutics and tactic, yes – personal attacks, no. In fact, I’ve defended you against them.

Ok – maybe you are not angry – but you tend to be nasty… and sarcastic as well.

But we digress… I don’t suppose you’d care to address either of my questions. As I’ve said before – being brothers in Christ and all – it would be a lot easier to discuss an issue if we could define it first.

Neil

Hey guys the word is getting out that Ken quotes Tozer… and it’s credibility factor…

http://matbathome.blogspot.com/2007/04/tozer-mystic.html

musings and pontifications

So you will have to face up to this “miss”ive attack that indites Tozer…

iggy

Ken,

those are your words… not mine.. you serve another god… I believe in Jesus who died for our sins, was buried and rose again on the third day… In that we have been given salvation through Grace through faith in this Jesus…

I believe in the virgin birth, that Jesus was fully man and yet fully God, that He was incarnate or came flesh…

I believe that there is no other Name to be saved…

I trust only in Christ Jesus for my salvation….

I would like to once again offer to talk to you about Jesus being you very Life… That you come to know Him as your Saviour and Lord… and Friend… and brother…

I believe in the Trinity…

So, as far as your accusation, I guess you deny these things?

Now, what god to you serve?

blessings,
iggy

“dangling participles, notwithstanding,”

Ooh, master of the Engish language too. Wow, where do you find the time? By the way, did you recognize that was your wife’s comment reversed?

“I’ll live my life in faith and trust in God will do, while you and amy live your lives in fear of what Satan might do, and we’ll compare notes later…”

O yeah, we will. By the way, I have zero fear of Satan but I do have a healthy fear of the Lord. If He chooses to let you wander further into your twisted Arminianism of the semi-Pelagian preacher in G-Rap you my friend can do nothing about it. You are already on the wrong path and arguing with the Spirit speaking through men like me. Bad idea.

“Answer the simple questions or give up your diversions.” I already answered them but you apparently can’t hear. The meditation such as Richard Foster teaches was not part of Judaism. And Yoga comes from a religious discipline designed to unite them with their “god.” These things cannot be Christianized, because they originated through demons and it is as Baal worship practices and the Asterah poles – the high places – that God forbid and commanded torn down.

But a day that a pagan might have had a celebration on, or something created by God – like a tree – could be held/used by a Christian with a dfifferent meaning for it is like the food sacrificed to idols. Maybe you should read Romans more closely.

iggy,

Yeah desperate; that’s what I am. LOL

Ken,

This is a riot as you are now arguing our argument for us!!!!! LOL!

“But a day that a pagan might have had a celebration on, or something created by God – like a tree – could be held/used by a Christian with a different meaning for it is like the food sacrificed to idols. Maybe you should read Romans more closely.”

So do you believe Jesus was born on Dec 25th?

LOL!

blessings,
iggy

Ken,

this has been an eye opener, well not really… but is has been interesting as you try to finagle you way out of these questions…

I am going to bed and getting some needed sleep… I still suggest you take the challenge… I usually pray that God reveal to me that if I am wrong anywhere to let me know.. and He has and He does… many times!

But for this to work you need to come to God without your agenda and desire His… and be willing to change your views if God opens your eyes…

This is not some “gnostic” revelation thingy… but that you just read the Bible and see what God says without listening to Ken… if you can do that… it is a challenge I know that… but when God speaks I will tell you this He will nail you against the wall (in a loving way) and the only answer you can give to His question is an honest one…

I pray that the Light of Christ opens your eyes to His ways and His path is made even more clear to you…

Blessings,
iggy

Chris,
Would you agree after watching the two videos, that “Meditation in Christian yoga is about meditation on the Word of God and prayer?” Believe me the second video is not an example of something that is RARELY happening.

Nathan,
You said, “I think reading up on the subject would actually make them more open to doing real yoga.” (April 27 6:33 pm.)
Do you agree with that after watching these videos?

Chris,
You said, “When Hindus practice yoga exercises and inject Hindu meditation into it, this is wrong (nobody here has suggested differently). ” I wonder if you and Nathan really agree on this subject?

Neil,
You said, RE: “Some suggestions for “Christian ” meditation:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm”

Regarding “Christian” as an adjective, I would like to ask… ummm, never mind.”

Unless you say otherwise, I will be assuming then that you have no problem with defining this type of meditation as Christian?

You also said, “That aside, it’s hard to get in over my head when all Amy does is site anecdote after anecdote (even her last website reference was yet another scenario) and you just pop in and snark personal insults…

Until someone is willing to give the basis for their presuppositions, I guess we’ll just play tit for tat on the scenarios.”

Do you call taking scriptures and trying to explain them “anecdotes?” Did you read what I said about I Cor. 11. Um, the two videos were meant to educate anyone who thinks that yoga is harmless, and especially to give people an understanding that “Christian” yoga can be much more than “reading scripture while stretching.” And by the way, the two videos are very much a part of “defining the issue” which is what we’re after, right?

Chris,
“She hasn’t deconstructed anything – neither she nor you have shown the simple mental capacity required to answer a few simple questions.”

So Ken answered one of the most-asked questions, which came along WAY before Neil’s question, about Christmas (which he already answered by the way) and he receives great words of thanks! And his answering the question was a tremendous help to you and to the issue at hand and you all replied with such amazing grace! You proved that my decision in choosing NOT to answer the questions must have some credibility. Maybe I’m not so stupid after all.

And of course you show no concern that this could possibly be true: “These things cannot be Christianized, because they originated through demons and it is as Baal worship practices and the Asterah poles – the high places – that God forbid and commanded torn down.”

Chris,
You said,
“Let’s see – she posted a link to a Hindu website on how to do Christian yoga. What an excellent idea! While we’re at it, let’s ask the Wiccans how to celebrate Christmas, the Mormons how to Baptize, and the JW’s how to do open-air ministry.” GOOD MORNING. HOW DO YOU THINK CHRISTIANS ARE LEARNING TO DO YOGA? Or are Father John Main and Father Laurence Freeman not real Chrisitans? “The Maranatha Mantra has been taught extensively by Father John Main and Father Laurence Freeman through their organization, the World Community for Christian Meditation.” Perhaps I made a mistake; I should have linked to THEIR site to find out how Christians do Hindu yoga.

Why SHOULD I answer anyone’s questions?

Here are some responses Ken received,
“Now you just sound insane…” You again, just proved you are abusive… (Iggy) (Oh yes, with some kind advice, “Instead of put-downs . . .” (I guess “you just sound insane isn’t a put-down?))

“Carefully avoiding actually answering any questions,” (Chris) (An amazing statement after he responded specifically to the much-asked Christmas issue)

Then a threat about two other questions: “Answer them or forfeit any credibility you might ever have had an inkling of claiming.” (And, if you think about it, his answer covers any issues relating to the two questions about positions.)

“I have been to the depths of despair, and there, at the bottom of the pit, I was saved by the One and only true God, YHWH. I know what His voice sounds like. As He wrote: ‘My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.’ I hear His voice in my time of prayer and echoed in the voices of His under-pastors who care – and have cared – for me.”

Yeah Chris, me too. Now what are you going to do? One of us isn’t hearing from God. So now we get to make our stand. Either your new evangelical religion is true, or the historic orthodox Christian faith I preach is true. I can live with that, can you?

“When I read your screed, though, I also hear the voice of spirits – demons of deception, slander, divisiveness and pride – and I pray that one day He would remove these evil spirits from you.” Same here Chris, what you are saying to me cannot possibly be coming from God. So again, now what do you do?

“In the mean-time, these demons will continue in the domination you have given them.” Words that will judge you Chris if you don’t repent.

“Why do I speak out against you?” You speak out about me because this is God’s judgment on your own prideful heart Chris, it’s all over this site and in your writings. Speak out all you want (Isaiah 6:8-10), you only condemn yourself.

Amy,

RE:

http://www.swamij.com/maranatha.htm”

Regarding “Christian” as an adjective, I would like to ask… ummm, never mind.”

Unless you say otherwise, I will be assuming then that you have no problem with defining this type of meditation as Christian?

I never said, nor even hinted at such a thing – there a definitive answer to a question of yours.

I find it increasingly frustrating to have to respond to “what if” scenarios – like the Hindu website you linked to – as opposed to discussing the realties that lies behind the example.

Neil

Amy wrote:

Neil,
By the way, I already answered your question, just not to your liking. Here was my answer”

You keep asking, “Are certain postures/positions ontologically evil?” as if a “no” answer to that from one who is concerned about Christians practicing yoga would negate everything else they’ve said.

I think that a more appropriate question is this, “How can Christians who don’t recognize yoga for what it is in the first place separate it into parts that are evil and parts that aren’t?”

I’ll say you responded to my questions, but you did not answer them. You responded to my question with a question.

I asked two simple questions regarding your worldview of what is real.
You responded with a scenario question built on a worldview of what is real.

I’m just trying to get to the root of the worldview you hold – you won;t tell me, and Ken calls it quibbling.

Neil

PS – what did I ever say to make you think I agreed with the Hindu site you posted? I never said it. I never implied or even addressed the contents. And no one here is advocating anything like it.

And I have stated that I have a problem with Transcendental Mediation already.