On Mike Corley’s Blog, he is asking for people to write in five questions that they would ask emerging churches. In his radio show, he opened it up for people from the emerging side to ask the discernment ministries / traditional church five questions. Head over there and ask some thought provoking questions for people to consider! However, please respect Mr. Corley’s wishes and just ask questions. Hopefully this will later turn into a discussion. Remember, they are our brothers and sisters, even if that mindset is not reciprocated .
This entry was posted
on Thursday, April 26th, 2007 at 11:18 pm and is filed under Linked Articles, Mike Corley.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Both comments and pings are currently closed.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
55 Comments(+Add)
I hope this is a true attempt to get both sides talking… myself I have become a bit too cynical so I will wait a bit… but I have great hope that God is moving and things will open soon…
BTW I have no problem it giving Kudos if they are moving in a good direction… = )
Yet, (gotta figure that was coming huh? LOL) the only issue is that there is an implied statement that the emerging church movement is not a proponent of historic orthodox Christian faith…
It seems that N.T. Wright would disagree, Brian McLaren would also as he wrote a book on embracing a wide historic orthodox Christian faith….
I think that is part of the “issue” right there as there is this misunderstanding we are doing something “new” when we view we are returning to an authentic view of the Christian faith…
It seems though on the surface there is an attempt and it is a good one… yet it still misses the point…
Blessings,
iggy
It seems like most of the questions people have posted are in the vein of, “when did you stop beating your wife”, in that they are starting with a huge assumption and fishing to reinforce it. I hate to say it, but it probably not worth trying to dialogue with people who think they are 100% right.
I left a comment, just to point out that there are two kinds of questions that could be asked:
1. Questions seeking understanding.
2. Questions seeking ammunition.
The comments I’ve seen over there so far are clearly those seeking ammunition. Phil phrased it well in the above comment. Perhaps Corley was hoping for some honest questions and dialogue, but unfortunately those who have responded so far are more closely resemble the scribes, lawyers, and Pharisees who were always trying to trap Jesus into saying something they could use as an accusation against Him.
Ummmm….how many people connected to the emerging church actually listen to Mike Corley? Even many of you here on this site don’t purport to be “emerging”, etc.
I don’t listen to his “radio” show. I don’t have time or desire to.
It’s just another echo chamber, I fear.
“It’s just another echo chamber, I fear.”
Not unlike the “discernment” in this echo chamber here…just depends on who you want to listen to…
Ken, the mere fact that you, Chris P., Chris R., Amy and formerly Henry (Rick) Freuh post here destroys any hope of an echo chamber.
And we like that.
Not unlike the “discernment†in this echo chamber here…just depends on who you want to listen to…
Oh good, that means I can use the “I know you are but what am I” argument, too.
Let’s see, “they” are asking questions, but oh they arent the “right ” questions.
I don’t see much in the way of convesration or dialogue in the Scriptures. When it does appear it is always to make a point. Everything in the Word has a point. Liberal/emerging/ and “tolerant” blogs have no point.
I do not post to change minds or engage in dialogue.
You fail to see that the watchman minstry is simply to proclaim the Word of God. If I don’t it’s on me, but I dfo so now it is on the hearers.
Please don’t give me the “you think you are Ezekiel crap”.
Now that is truly a “strawman” argument.
The church is meant to carry on all the Biblical mandate.
I think all the gifts are in operation in the one true church as manifested all over the earth, therefore let the prophets speak, whoever they are.
FYI McClaren, Sweet, Warren, Bono etc are not the prophets.
“Everything in the Word has a point.”
Please explain the point of this to me:
“47 “If any clothing is contaminated with mildew—any woolen or linen clothing, 48 any woven or knitted material of linen or wool, any leather or anything made of leather- 49 and if the contamination in the clothing, or leather, or woven or knitted material, or any leather article, is greenish or reddish, it is a spreading mildew and must be shown to the priest. 50 The priest is to examine the mildew and isolate the affected article for seven days. 51 On the seventh day he is to examine it, and if the mildew has spread in the clothing, or the woven or knitted material, or the leather, whatever its use, it is a destructive mildew; the article is unclean. 52 He must burn up the clothing, or the woven or knitted material of wool or linen, or any leather article that has the contamination in it, because the mildew is destructive; the article must be burned up.” Leviticus 13:47-52
“FYI McClaren, Sweet, Warren, Bono etc are not the prophets.”
Says you.
Uh-oh, Chris P. I hate to give the boys here fodder, but I have to disagree with you here.
“FYI McClaren, Sweet, Warren, Bono etc are not the prophets.” I see them very plainly here: Thus says the LORD of hosts: “Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you, filling you with vain hopes. They speak visions of their own minds, not from the mouth of the LORD. They say continually to those who despise the word of the LORD, ‘It shall be well with you’; and to everyone who stubbornly follows his own heart, they say, ‘No disaster shall come upon you.’”
For who among them has stood in the council of the LORD to see and to hear his word, or who has paid attention to his word and listened? Behold, the storm of the LORD! Wrath has gone forth, a whirling tempest; it will burst upon the head of the wicked. The anger of the LORD will not turn back until he has executed and accomplished the intents of his heart. In the latter days you will understand it clearly.
“I did not send the prophets, yet they ran; I did not speak to them, yet they prophesied. But if they had stood in my council, then they would have proclaimed my words to my people, and they would have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their deeds. (Jeremiah 23:16-22)
Chris P.,
So a prophet is not trying to change people’s minds. It seems to me that the Old Testament prophets spent a great deal of their time trying to convince people to change.
So one one hand you say, “let the prophets speak, whoever they are”, but on the other hand you give us a list of people who you know aren’t prophets. Just who makes the final call? It seems like it is really up to God from my perspective. In Jeremiah 9 it says, “But the prophet who prophesies peace will be recognized as one truly sent by the LORD only if his prediction comes true.” It’s not for us to be the final arbiter on these things. God will sort it out.
This is basically my problem with people like Corley. They have set themselves up as not just watchdogs, but as gatekeepers. They have decided who is and who isn’t a true Christian. They have their lists of acceptable practices and such, but it isn’t there place.
I do believe there are people who call themselves Christians who aren’t, but I don’t see what good it does fighting constantly against them. I believe it is the Church’s job to live the Biblical mandate, as you say, but that needs to done more in the way we live and by less one-sided preaching at people. Jesus did not shout people down, He didn’t berate them, He actually interacted with them. If anyone had the right to simply speak the Truth and not worry about how people handled it, it was Jesus. But Jesus actually did care about people’s reactions, and did explain to those who were genuinely open. The ones He didn’t waste his time with were the self-righteous religious establishment. They considered themselves justified and righteous, but they were the ones in greatest danger.
Chris P,
It is not that they are not the “right”questions… though there may be some bit of truth to that… it is in how they are asking….
like it was said earlier… some are like:
Are you still beating your wife, Chris P.?
Are you still having that affair?
Now with that in mind… here are two from the site:
“Does the “emergent church†view the Bible as a finished product and a final authority for all beliefs and practices in your church?”
The first one is really very open as a question. I cannot answer a “yes” or a “no” … but have to filter through what he is really asking… which is what? It the Bible infallible? He never asked that… It is finished? In what sense? Does he mean that we can add other books like the Mormons? Or does he mean that all prophecy has been fulfilled? With that in mind my answer is yes and no and that is just not what HE is phishing for…
the second question is the same.
“How does the “emergent church†justify the “forms†of “worship†they practice?”
What does he mean by “forms”… candles? incense? big screens? Electric guitars? and it seems he compartmentalizes worship as I do not view singing or kneeling or folding my hands or sitting still in a church building “worship”… I see my life as worship as i am the temple of God and Christ lives His Life in and through me… so how do I answer his question?
Now does he mean… how do you justify doing “Roman Catholic” style worshippy thingees in your services? That at least is honest as to where he is coming from and what answer he wants… but this man is not asking an “honest” question… he is phishing for fodder to use against others.
Now, I hope you can see the difference between that and…
these questions… which still need a little filtering… but are at least clear in that one can answer them without guessing what he is trying to really say…
1. How is a person reconciled to God?
2. What is ’sin’?
3. What are the greatest errors in what we see as ‘orthodox’ theology?
4. Are the first six chapters of Genesis literally true?
5. How can we know that any message to us purportedly from God is really from Him? In other words, how does God authenticate His message(s) to us?
Can you see the difference?
Blessings,
iggy
btw do you still beat your wife? (just kidding!)
Ken,
You remind me of a blond joke… in regards to your views on some of these people…
A young blond woman was driving through the Florida Everglades, while on vacation. She
wanted to take home a pair of genuine alligator shoes, in the worst way, but was very reluctant to
pay the high prices that the local vendors were asking.
After becoming very frustrated with the attitude of one of the shopkeepers, the young
blond declared, “Well, then, maybe I’ll just go out and catch my own alligator and get a pair of
shoes for free!”
The shopkeeper replied with a sly smile, “Well, little lady, why don’t you go on and give
it a try?”
The blond headed off to the swamp, determined to catch an alligator. Later in the day, as
the shopkeeper was driving home, he spotted the same young woman standing waist deep in the murky
water, shotgun in hand.
As he brought his car to a stop, he saw a huge 9-foot gator swimming rapidly toward her.
With lightning reflexes, the blond took aim, shot the creature and hauled it up onto the slippery
bank. Nearby were 7 more dead gators, all lying belly up.
The shopkeeper stood on the bank, watching in silent amazement as the blond struggled
mightily and barely managed to flip the gator onto its back.
Then, rolling her eyes heavenward, she screamed in frustration. . .
“CRUD! THIS ONE’S BAREFOOT, TOO!”
So when is your next barefoot “miss”ive?
iggy
“It’s not for us to be the final arbiter on these things. God will sort it out.”
Memo from God, He told us to do it: “By their fruit you will know them.” (see-Matthew 7:16)
Ken,
Your views on things like the “emergents”, “contemplation” and so on remind me of a blond joke:
A young blonde woman was driving through the Florida Everglades, while on vacation. She
wanted to take home a pair of genuine alligator shoes, in the worst way, but was very reluctant to
pay the high prices that the local vendors were asking.
After becoming very frustrated with the attitude of one of the shopkeepers, the young
blonde declared, “Well, then, maybe I’ll just go out and catch my own alligator and get a pair of
shoes for free!”
The shopkeeper replied with a sly smile, “Well, little lady, why don’t you go on and give
it a try?”
The blonde headed off to the swamp, determined to catch an alligator. Later in the day, as
the shopkeeper was driving home, he spotted the same young woman standing waist deep in the murky
water, shotgun in hand.
As he brought his car to a stop, he saw a huge 9-foot gator swimming rapidly toward her.
With lightning reflexes, the blonde took aim, shot the creature and hauled it up onto the slippery
bank. Nearby were 7 mor e dead gators, all lying belly up.
The shopkeeper stood on the bank, watching in silent amazement as the blonde struggled
mightily and barely managed to flip the gator onto its back.
Then, rolling her eyes heavenward, she screamed in frustration. . .
“CRUD! THIS ONE’S BAREFOOT, TOO!”
So, Ken, when is you rnext barefoot “miss”ive?
iggy
iggy,
Well, you can’t say I didn’t warn you. I have done what I can for you, but know this I forgive you.
Ken,
what do YOU need to forgive us for? I thought our “sin” was against God. At least that’s what you always pull out with the Matthew 18 principle.
thanks Ken…
I mean that… if I have harmed you some way, thank you…
this is not meant sarcastically. I mean that…
Yet, i am not sure to what you are forgiving me for, but that is not important…
If it that you warned me about “those guys”, Ken, Christ Jesus is my life… not them… and if you knew me… I do see emergent as a fad… but not in the way you do… I see it as growing and solidifying… as did the original reformation…
Do you think that the Reformation ended or is still going…
Spurgeon thought it still going… Luther saw it as never ending until Christ return… but in you revisionist history… do you see the Reformation having ended? If so when?
Blessings,
iggy
Blessings,
iggy
I posted over there that while I don’t consider myself an “authority” on the emerging church, from the standpoint of editing Next Wave and pastoring evergreen, and also being one who is both a fan and a critic of much in the emerging church movement I’d be willing to take a crack at the questions.
I also suggested Andrew Jones as someone who tries to take the middle way on much of the issues thrown around in this whole thing…
Doesn’t seem as though my comment has made it past moderation, but we’ll see.
Bob,
Andrew would be a great person to do that…
Blessings,
iggy
I was thinking about nominating myself as well. I’ve read Emergent Worship AND Emergent Church.
Ken,
Somehow you manage to miss the little part about planks and specks a few verses before that section in Matthew. Of course we can develop opinions based on what see in people’s lives, but our opinion does not matter in the end. As far as the Fruit of the Spirit, I certainly don’t see a lot of gentleness, kindness, and joy (to name a few) evident on a lot of the watchdogging blogs.
Mike Corley says, “I could be wrong.” He has said this before. We all should say this because none of us have the mind of God who is the only one that can know everything with absolute certainty. To say, “I know” about the essentials is fine, but it is o.k. to say “I think”, “I believe,” or “I feel” on non-essentials.
Ken: I think folks are trying to communicate to you that you cannot possibly know everything. I think thats why Mike Corley wanted to do the 5 questions, because he realizes that like most of us, we do not have every answer. Never admitting you could be wrong does not strengthen your position, it weakens it because people will not take you as seriously as they would otherwise.
Darren
Darren,
“Ken: I think folks are trying to communicate to you that you cannot possibly know everything.”
No kidding. But I never said I did.
You basically said that if we didn’t listen to you and heed your words, our hearts would not be right with Christ. I would call that knowing everything.
Nathan,
Just so you know, I’m not responsible for you putting words in my mouth that I didn’t say and/or from your deducing non sequiturs with what I actually say.
So what are you saying ken?
LOL!
iggy
iggy,
Maybe you need to ask God for ears that hear. No laughing matter friend.
Ken, you may feel that you’ve done this, but we have absolutely NO IDEA what you’re trying to say. If we ever claim to, you say we’re wrong and when we ask you to clarify, you play the pastor-teacher card.
It has reached the point where you ARE a laughing matter. You don’t say anything and then get mad at us when we don’t listen. Linking back to your site for your exhaustive “research” doesn’t count as a response to sincerely asked, very direct questions.
I don’t know how you got where you are emotionally and spiritually, but I pray that God brings you out of it quickly.
Ken Said:
“Best you take care to get yourself right with Christ because you are on the wrong side of these issues as well. Know this, we aren’t playing a game here”
Nathan said (repeating Ken):
“You basically said that if we didn’t listen to you and heed your words, our hearts would not be right with Christ. ”
I don’t need to put any words in your mouth, Ken. You spew enough out to make a fool of yourself without my help.
By their fruit, etc. etc.
ummm…that’s love, joy, peace, patience, etc.
Not love, joy, peace, never drinks beer, peace, patience, only listens to one style of music enjoyed by one particular sub-culture of north american christianity, gentleness, etc. etc.
Oral law, anyone?
Ken… yet another witty answer but not answering the questions I have asked over and over…
I hear fine… I see fine.. I see the damage you blindly do to other ministries as well as do others…
maybe, if stopped thinking yourself better than me… or anyone else you could see and hear also…
Remember it was the religious that were blind and the sinners that eyes and ears were opened?
I only boast in God’s glorious Grace and mercy on me a sinner… saved by Grace through faith not of my works so I cannot boast….
Yet, you seem to be above all that… so don’t worry, God will separate things in the end and you can cry “Lord, Lord!”…
Just make sure you say, “Baaa?” afterwards…
Blessings,
iggy
iggy,
Here’s your problem in an emerging nutshell: “I see the damage you blindly do to other ministries as well as do others…”
This proves nothing because I just as easily turn around and say Apprising.org averages 2100 visitors a day and 12,000 hits and so I see the damage this Emergent rebellion blindly does to other ministries as well as do others.
So there’s your relativistic postmodern philosophy, the first scenario is true for you, and the second is true for me. Cuts both ways friend.
It only shows how proud you are of your damage… and that hatred is being seen by many…
Beware the millstone…
blessings,
iggy
Ken,
It also shows how many people you may be harming that are keeping an eye on you…so don’t get too proud about your high position…
My site has been up for only a month and has had over 1800 hits… and that is just posts about you and a couple of others… I am sure this blog also gets much more than that…
So, stats are not a good indicator that you are doing “good” it can mean you are just controversial… which may not be that good….
So, has your church grown? up to 7 or 8 people now?
Just wondering…
Blessings,
iggy
Also Ken, i am not a relativist… which shows how little you actually know… as most in emerging are not also…
we just don’t put as much stock in Plato and Hegel as you do… as “absolute truth” is not biblical… it is a man made philosophy… do some research… Truth is true without any qualifier to make it more so… let you yes be yes and your no be no… and that is just the tip of the “modernist” view you are promoting… Plato btw was denounced as a Gnostic heretic by Irenaeus.
so what you say there means nothing to me… as most you say… as the only opinion that matters to me is God’s as I am in Christ… and again it shows only that you have more to learn…
Blessings,
iggy
Postmodernism by definition will preclude definitive and absolute truth because the idea is that our perception of truth changes, which ends up meaning that what is true now might not necessarily prove ultimately to be true later.
And if one holds this view they have to be relativists because everyone is at a different place in the journey, so one person might see something as true where they are at a given time, but someone else may be in a different place and it might not be true for them.
Maybe you haven’t listened to college kids as I have. So you might want to actually learn the core beliefs of the alleged postmodern culture you’re supposedly emerging to be relevant to.
Then you boast: “I am in Christ” You’d better be.
Ken,
I did a post about that i am not a postmodern… I use some tools of postmodern as you do of modernism.. yet it seems you hold to modernism more than I do postmodernism…
In fact most of the people you smear do not claim postmodernism…
If you study a bit further you might find that there is a close resemblance between Hebraic thought and postmodernism with some very different end results!
I am immersed in the culture you are attacking and bringing them to Christ… you seem to know so much about me, but actually you know nothing at all…
So before you lecture me about what i do and don’t know… be sure that what you know is true or not…
blessings,
iggy
don’t even try iggy… Ken still put his fingers in his ears and yells “la-la-la-la” when we try to tell him that the world we live in is postmodern. He thinks the e/e church is crazy for thinking so too… he just gets confused easily.
nathan,
I bet that he thinks everyone in the dark ages was dark skinned…
Or that those in the industrial revolution won the fight to work longer hours…
or that the medieval age they were only slightly evil…
Sorry… LOL!
blessings,
iggy
iggy,
Just remember friend you’re the one who came after me and it is a bad idea. I’ll leave it at that. You’re the one constantly whining about this one judged you and that one accuses you. I don’t think you’d last long in my shoes.
When I was given these ministries where I counsel pastors from all over the country, which you didn’t know, the Lord let me know what the stakes are. Spiritually it’s like a football game, if my job is to move you out of the way then that is what I will do.
So when one plays the game hard he has to expect others to come hard at him. Fine by me. I don’t whine and I don’t complain when you guys here say what you do about me. But for God’s grace I’d be you, and if I were you I’d see me the same way. But I have a job to do, and as long as God chooses to sustain me, know that I will do it.
Ken,
“Just remember friend you’re the one who came after me and it is a bad idea.”
Is that a threat?
I am not worried as God is my protector… if God is for me who can be against me… I stand on the Truth that is Christ Jesus.
Blessings,
iggy
Ken,
Food for thought…
“The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself: `God, I thank you that I am not like other men–robbers, evildoers, adulterers–or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’ ”
All I have to say is “have mercy on me a sinner.”
“I am not worried as God is my protector… if God is for me who can be against me… I stand on the Truth that is Christ Jesus.”
Yeah, that’s exactly how I feel. Now you know where we stand. We are diametrically opposed so that statement is going to prove true for one of us. I can live with that. So let’s see what happens.
The saddest thing you have said though is “Spiritually it’s like a football game, if my job is to move you out of the way then that is what I will do.”
It seems that this is but a game to you… that there is no consequences for your actions… and that you can threaten me…
You are very sad… I think I have shown you for what you really are… if not before by these last few statements that show contempt and hatred toward me and others…
iggy
Ken,
If that is your position, it is yours… I am praying for God to bring reconciliation… and to bring peace between brother to brother… or salvation to you as it seems to be playing out here…
(1 John 1:2; 1 John 4: 19-21)
Now, go hire your hit man or whatever…
Blessings,
iggy
“We are diametrically opposed…”
Believing that Rob Bell is a heretic and not believing that Rob Bell is a heretic does not make you “diametrically opposed.”
“Yeah, that’s exactly how I feel. Now you know where we stand. We are diametrically opposed so that statement is going to prove true for one of us. I can live with that. So let’s see what happens.”
Ken,
If you can live with that, then why do you have whole websites attacking people who have different views on certain Christian practices? It seems like the focus of your life is to attack people for their differing views, some who believe the same essentials that you so. I mean, then we could shut this whole thing down and go argue politics somewhere else
Nathan,
I can’t help you because you just don’t hear.
Ken,
Nathan (and the rest of us) hear just fine. The problem is with your serpent tongue, not our ears. You’d do well to go re-read the book of James.
“I can’t help you because you just don’t hear.”
huh?
Chris L.,
But you see “brother,” the problem is rather with your own serpent tongue, and love of man’s scholarship and not with my ears. You would do well to go re-read the book of James youself.
O, and 2 Corinthians 11 while you’re at it. See there who you recognize…
Ken,
Yep i see you there in 2 Corinthians 11… and we are hoping you will not still be deceived by Satan’s cunning… for His greatest weapon is to appeal you one’s pride… and that is what I see has happened to you… and to your release from the religious spirit that binds you…
Blessings,
iggy
Ken,
I have to agree with Iggy – it was like Ken Silva’s picture hanging over the page…
My spell check seems to miss a lot! but I think Chris L got the point…
I left a word out as I was dashing out the door… and that was “pray” I am praying for Ken’s release from the religious spirit that blinds and binds him…
I know, as i have been there… (Mark 8:36).
Blessings,
iggy