As someone who loved and loves Rez, and actually visiting JPUSA a couple of times back in the decadent 80’s, good to see ya here! And I’m glad I found your blog through this whole exchange!

Back to your Calvinism discussion… I have two very dear relatives who are five-pointers, and I basically don’t discuss it with them anymore (causes a rise in our collective blood pressure). My short riff on the topic would begin with the biblical concept of “antinomy” — apparent contradiction — with which the Scripture is rife. Sovereignty vs. Free-Will…. maybe believing in both is part of the mystery of faith, sort of like trying to get one’s intellectual abstractions into neat order concerning the Trinity. Lots of great minds offer illumination, but no one (to my knowledg) exactly wraps it up with a bow on it. Antinomy. I think one often finds it around God, and around love.

Jon “goddess worshipping shamanistic animist… and a non-Calvinist to boot” Trott

so basically God is having you work in vain? I mean the elect cannot be plucked from God’s hand, right? Then why would God have you speak out against those who will, in the end, have no effect on the chosen?

The biggest problem with reformed theology to me is that the theology and the practices don’t line up. If God will save who he wills, we don’t need to evangelize. If God will keep all he calls, there is no need for speaking out against false teachers. Two ultimately don’t match up. And, in the end you are really left with fatalism. We have no effect on the future, it all is already planned out.

This theological system would explain why must people writing for CRN have plenty of time to head hunt. No need to evangelize, no need to do the lord’s work. He has it all taken care of.

It is in the part that Jacob I loved Esau I hated that is so often misinterpreted which taints the rest of the passage. We agree on MOST of what you wrote, yet again and again I see the Calvinist stopping at verse 18…

In fact the idea of total depravity is not proven in these passages… that man is sinful

In Chapter 1 man is “turn over to a depraved mind”. To be turned over directly implies man is not born totally depraved.

In fact the early church father such as Iraenius wrote against the idea of total depravity as they taught that man was able to choose between good and evil… and if he chose good it would please God… yet man chooses evil…

To further this thought I think that man being a moral agent is just not equipped to sustain his moral choices… in that no one is righteous.

The idea of total depravity did not come about until Augustine who was very much influenced by Plato… who was Gnostic…

Gnosticism teaches flesh is evil; spirit is good… so Calvin through Augustine passes on this Gnostic view that man being flesh is totally depraved. Sin is not passed on genetically… when the bible states that sin came through Adam it is not talking through his “loins” it is saying through his disobedience. It is as Romans 1 states he chose to worship the creation over the Creator… meaning Adam chose his own way over waling with God.

Man was not made perfect but as Jesus being the second Adam was “perfect” Jesus was not “proven” in His perfect until He LEARNED obedience unto death. In that Adam was made perfect in that he was innocent, yet he was not perfect in all that he was to be. Had he not fallen Adam would have most likely learned obedience also and then would have proven his perfect by his obedience.

To say the reformed theology as Calvinism is the pinnacle of Christian theology seems a bit of a stretch… plus remember Arminius was also a “Reformed” theologian… so Reformed theology encompasses much more than just Calvinism…

Again, my theology is from reading the Bible… later I read others… and was amazed at what they taught… it seems they had never really just read the bible…

I see that God is bigger than a “system” and if God is sovereign then the system designed by man will be flawed… that is not about being “right” but about being humble. To say the system is perfect or is right, then demands that God must be subject to the system… then we only have a god under a sovereign system, ruled by that system. That is Calvinism in a nutshell… it is simply a way to control God… to me that is religion… and Jesus did not come to give us religion but Life.

Blessings,
iggy

Anyone that thinks the elect can be deceived and plucked out of God’s hands has obviously never really studied Scripture. In fact, Reformed theology teaches the exact opposite, that we can not be seperated from the love of God, nor deceived. Does this mean we should not speak out against what is perceived as false teaching? Absolutely not. We are to contend for the faith. I say again, laziness is not an option in any area for a Christian. Anyone that uses their theology to be lazy is acting in an unbiblical and unChristian way.

In Christ,

Ricky

If anything, Romans 8 and 9 definitively support Reformed theology.

Romans 8 speaks both of our total depravity and inability to do anything to regarding our salvation apart from the Spirit of God. It also speaks to the perserverance of the saints in that nothing can seperate the elect from the love of God.

Romans 9 1:18 show that he is no respecter of persons as He does not favor one race over another, and that before the foundation of the earth He had ordained a people on whom He would have mercy, and people by their unbelief on whom He would not have mercy.

Romans 9:19-24 speaks first of the irresistable grace ascribed to the elect. Then it speaks of God ultimately in control, choosing to endure the vessels destined for wrath so that he can be glorified by the vessels created for mercy. Paul then states the vessels of mercy are not only himself and some called of Israel, but of those called from the Gentiles.

Romans 9:25-29 shows God’s mercy to both to the Gentiles, by grafting them into the family of God, and to Israel by saving a remnant.

Romans 9:30-33 shows that the Gentiles were grafted in, not by works, but by faith.

I encourage you again to study these things. I am sorry that you have been hurt by “Calvinists”. I have heard this time and time again from people. I am truly sorry. But I would still encourage you to not let this hinder you from study and purely reject what Reformed theology teaches based on a few loud and obnoxious people. If I let that hinder me, I would never have stepped foot in a church after I was 8. Again, I am sorry that those that claim to be reformed have acted in a way that shows they are not. But I encourage you to stay strong in the Lord and study His Word dilegently.

In Christ,

Ricky Rickard, Jr.

So I guess I have to ask which one it is. Will God draw and keep the elect without any hindrance from us? Or is the emerging church hindering the elect from finding him, and causing the elect to be lead astray?

P.S. – Timothy, if you think Mosaic is creating idols out of wind, water, earth, fire and wood, then you obviously seriously misunderstand Mosaic.

Ever Calvinist teacher stops at verse 18… Piper and all… Spurgeon… and I ask why? Because of what I just stated… it does not back Calvinism…

This seems to be rampant in Calvinistic teachings as the Bible is literally interpreted to support Calvinism instead of letting it teach what it really states and means… in fact to equate Calvinism with the “Gospel” as many Calvinist do… and to see such disregard for the actual teachings of Scripture to support their doctrine leaves me to wonder if they are teaching another gospel…

Now, saying that I have some great and wonderful friends who are Calvinists… we talk and debate and I see them as brothers… yet, these hold loosely to Calvin and tightly to Jesus… .

The real nasty ones tend to hold tightly to Calvin and loosely to Jesus… in that they justify judging others and being able to hate those who are not elect… I know I have been a victim of this time and time again… in fact there are a couple of websites defaming me as I write this…. and they are Calvinist… so much for the Gospel of Love if you can have a gospel that lets you hate and be a real nasty person…

So I see the fruit coming from those who put Jesus first then their doctrine… be it Calvinism or whatever and a really bad smelling theology and doctrine from those who hold tightly to their doctrine to the detriment of Christ…

Blessings,
iggy

So your main complaint is people that evelate their intrepretations to the level of Scripture, and when leads to poor orthopraxy? Couldn’t agree more. This simple was not made clear by you previously. My apologies for my misunderstanding of your writing. No man’s intrepretation should be held in the same high regard as Scripture, as Scripture is the ultimate authority. And theology without action is just a lot of noise which accomplishes nothing. I glad I now understand where you are coming from.

Joe,

I am not saying that only those with a reformed theological viewpoint have done serious study. By no means. I know plenty of people that have done hours upon hour of serious study and strongly disagree with me. It just seems the vast majority of people in this thread would rather hide in the sand or simply blast a certain theological viewpoint as opposed to actually examining it to see if it is Biblical. If that is your perspective, than yes, I would say that is laziness. Any doctrine, whether it be election, the resurrection, the virgin birth, or even salvation, should be examined as to whether it is Biblical, not whether I like it or not. Hope that clarifies.

In Christ,

Ricky Rickard, Jr.