This whole argument is just plain stupid to me. I mean, are we going to hold pastors accountable for every sin that members of their churches commit? I don’t think there would be one pastor in America (or anywhere else for that matter) that could take on that responsibility. I mean I’ve seen some church members do some horrible things, but I’ve rarely thought that it was a reflection on their pastors. Most of the time, it’s people who just reject counsel when given it.

Also, I don’t want to be a Murdoch apologist, but is he personally responsible for all the entanglements of the Fox empire? Does he not have a board of directors that he answers to? I just have a hard time believing that he could personally stop all these things on a dime. Personally, I would have some major problems in being the kind of position he is in, because I do think that Fox and its subsidiaries do put out filth (basically everything but the Simpsons and 24). I guess I just don’t know all the details, and how much Rupert Murdoch is personally responsible.

Gentlemen,

If Murdoch is a Christian brother then he must repent. As for Warren’s involvement..

1. He claims to be his Pastor.

2. Warren has a clear policy regarding how to deal with church discipline. Here is what Rick Warren says on the matter.

“Sin is to be confessed only as widely as it affects others. Private sin requires only private confession to God. Personal sin that involves others requires interpersonal confession to the people involved. Public sins (those that affect a large group of people in our congregation) regrettably must be dealt with publicly as a warning to others.”

Murdoch’s sins are a VERY public matter that openly impact people around the world. Warren’s standard under these conditions (not CRN’s) is that these types of sins must be dealt with publically.

Because Warren claims to be his pastor, it is completely reasonable to call on him to do his pastorly duty.

The goal should be repentance and restitution. If Murdoch won’t repent then the credibility of the Christian Church will remain intact because it acted in a way that demonstrated that Murdoch’s behavior was sinful and not in line with Christian teaching and morals.

What does Pastor Warren always say, “Deeds not Creeds” and be ye doers of the word.

Chris,

How long has Murdoch been a Christian? Where is he in his journey? Are we privy to what is (and isn’t) going on behind the scenes at Fox? Do we know how the company and its subsidiaries work?

As a consultant/worker in corporate America, with a better understanding than most on its inner-workings, I can tell you that once an organization reaches the geographic and employee base size of conglomerates like Fox – and when it is publicly traded – that changes, even those directed by the CEO do not (and can not) happen over night. The board of directors and the shareholders have significant pull (and push) that must be overcome.

Phil,

Contact Rick Warren. Ask him to do his pastorly duty.

Despite what you think you detect in the attitude of those bringing this to light, It is a real and serious issue. It needs to be dealt with.

Chris,

I am waiting to see how this actually plays out (what facts exist), and – for the moment – giving the benefit of the doubt. As for “the buck stopping” with Murdoch, he can say that, but even Jack Welsh at GE (the definition of “King CEO”)doesn’t have the kind of power suggested in that statement – nor the omniscience to know everything going on in all corners of all subsidiaries of the company.

Particularly since this is in Europe, absorbing/divesting/controlling subsidiaries is not only an internal matter, but also a matter governed by rather intrusive regulations. I’m not going to apologize on the part of Murdoch, nor speculate what/if he’s doing about this – and it really isn’t my place to do so at this point, unless you can direct me to his comments on this specific issue. At this point, it is like blaming the President of the US for indecency in the Atlanta Post Office.

As phil pointed out, though, this really isn’t about Murdoch, but just schadenfreude at work – seeking anything with which to criticize Rick Warren.

The above statement is for Chris R.

Except that CRN says Murdoch is not in his flock. They can’t have it both ways. How do you discipline someone who is not in your church?

Now, it seems that the source that published the report about Warren & Murdoch has pulled it. Of course, Ingrid is blaming Warren’s PD organization for somehow reaching out and squashing it.

Oh, to live in the world of Robert Ludlum, Dan Brown and Tom Clancy, where church organizations have so much power to control the news, the government, etc., etc. Perhaps the new Slice 2.0 symbol should be a tinfoil hat…

Chris R.
But that’s just it. You don’t have any idea what the arrangement is. You don’t even know if Warren would stand by that statement anymore. If he doesn’t I don’t really think he needs to issue a statement to that effect. To call this “purpose driven porn” is sensationalism. It seems to be slick marketing to get your view out that Warren is bad news.

Rick, you mean like getting mad at a woman and running away? Throwing a temper tantrum? That kind of sin?

Joe and Rick,
I think you both bring up good points. I think it’s so easy for us to point at other people, whether it’s Warren, Murdoch, or the drug dealer down the street and say how horrible their sin is. In reality, I think Christ wants us to look at our own sin and realize how horrible it is. Focusing on others is really just a distraction.

I know I have to watch myself when I point out things I don’t like at CRN. Finger-pointing is just so easy to fall into.

Also, as an aside – here is the line in question from the article:

Warren says he is pastor to Rupert Murdoch, whose News Corp. subsidiary publishes “The Purpose-Driven Life” but also publishes tabloid newspapers featuring topless women.

“I don’t have to agree with 100 percent of what another person does in order to work with them on the 20 percent that we do agree on,” Warren says.

This is not a direct quote of Warren, but a newswriter’s paraphrase, who I wouldn’t necessarily expect to understand the implications of “being a pastor to” someone. The quote coupled with this statement does not really seem to support the relationship implied.

Yea, and we follow Christ. I did not accuse your wife of anything, she said I was de-valuing women’s minstry in the church. I was just attempting to communicate my interpretation of the Scriptures and I treated your wife fairly.

Your tone and crass language is unbecoming of Christian dialogue which was I thought this blog championed. It isn’t safe anywhere.

This whole internet thing is one big carnal mess on all sides. Very sad.

Chris L.,
The 20% in that paraphrase is what Ken states (not suggests), but states is the $2 million donation.

His quote is, “So now we can see that Rick Warren already at least knew about Murdoch’s newspaper which features soft core porn, however, apparently he chose to ignore that 80 per cent in sin and focus on “the 20 percent” that equaled $2 million.”

What crass talk? “High Horse?” You did accuse my wife. She made a statement and you said she accused you of something, took your computer and went home. If no one else here will call that what it is so be it. There was no crass talk by anyone here (at least not in my post). What’s unbecoming of Christian dialogue is when you get stuck slapping someone (figuratively here, I know you didn’t actually hit her) and shutting down. Comment here, don’t comment here; bring your opinion, just own up. That’s all I’m asking for.

By the way, in deference to Chris L. I will comment here sometimes, although the women’s role issue is one I will avoid altogether.

Rick you are being pompous. I agree there was a nice exchange going on until you said,

thank you for your time, you have brought an unjustified accusation against me. Publicly. I will not bother this site again and I leave in peace.

That sir, is juvenile. It is silly and it is done from a point of pride. There was no accusation there. Now, that it is being called into question you again go on the offensive.
I can forgive you and still bring your attention to that matter as you did not respond in the past. As for her needing a secondary response. You offended me. Her and I are one flesh. What you do to her you do to me. When God says the two become one he means that in more than the sexual way.
So, if you don’t feel you did anything wrong, state that. We’ll disagree. I’ll still post here and you’ll still post here if that is what you chose, but do not think Sir, that you can come here and spout spiritual sounding accusations and not be held accountable for what you write. Unless, I’m banned I’ll call a horse a horse.

Rick, as far as you being back. I’m glad to. You bring a different perspective and that’s good, if we actually knew each other you and I might be friends. But as a friend I would still call you out. That’s what friends do. So welcome back, and your original comment about RW and the BLOG world has validity.

No one who knows anything about Rupert Murdoch and his
company really believes he’s a born-again Christian or any
kind of Christian. Either Rick Warren is very gullible or he’s
being disingenuos claiming to be Murdoch’s “pastor”. This
is a multibillionaire denizen of Manhattan and Beverly Hills
who heads a giant entertainment conglomerate known for
its vulgarity and Warren would have us believe he’s a true
believer! You might as well claim Hugh Hefner of Larry Flynt as a Christian.

Nathan,
You must realize that a comment like, “There are THOUSANDS of kids in emergent churches having sex with each other before marriage” made by Slice or CRN could never be said without a huge cry from CRNinfo&Analysis for proof, to define “emergent,” etc. What justifies your just throwing out a statement like “There are THOUSANDS of kids in fundamental churches having sex with each other before marriage?” without backing it up with proof and without defining “fundamental?”

According to ACSI, a “fundamentalist” group, 80% of all kids in fundamental churches don’t ever go back after High School. That is 8 out of 10. Of the 20% that do go back, half leave in five years. Of course I’m sure after X amount of years a percentage comes back too.

Amy,
Do you agree than with what Chris R and Ken S are saying?

Can anyone show me where Warren said that he’s this guy’s pastor? I’m not doubting, I’m just saying….

The thing I don’t understand is how do you do church discipline outside the context of a local church? I mean if the guy doesn’t go there what are they supposed to do?

Amy,
Regarding Nathan’s statement about thousands of kids in
fundamentalist churches having sex, the fact is that he probably underestimated the number. It is hard to find exact stats, but here’s one that’s pretty hard to argue with:

This is quoting Ronald J. Sider’s book, “The Scandal of the Evangelical Conscience”. He says, “True Love Waits, a program sponsored by the Southern Baptist Convention, is one of the most famous evangelical efforts to reduce premarital sexual activity among our youth. Since 1993, about 2.4 million young people have signed a pledge to wait until marriage to engage in sexual intercourse. Are these young evangelicals keeping their pledges? In March 2004, researchers from Columbia University and Yale University reported on their findings. For seven years they studied twelve thousand teenagers who took the pledge. Sadly, they found that 88 percent of these pledgers reported having sexual intercourse before marriage; just 12 percent kept their promise. The researchers also found that the rates for having sexually transmitted diseases ‘were almost identical for the teenagers who took pledges and those who did not’.”

Nathan,Phil,
In regards to my earlier questions about your statement,“There are THOUSANDS of kids in fundamental churches having sex with each other before marriage” one of my points was that you need to define “fundamental.”

Nathan, part of your response was this:I personally have been to many churches that CRN would feel right at home in (very traditional and fundamental churches) where teenagers have slept with each other and got pregnant. They were never removed from the church.

This scenario happens ALL the time. Kids in traditional churches everywhere are having sex with each other on a regular basis. And nine times outta ten, the pastor and parents know and don’t care. ”

I’m assuming that “fundamental” then actually means to you “traditional.”

There are lots of “traditional” churches, including many main-line churches, that would not define themselves as fundamentalist at all.

Phil then gave an example citing a survey done for “young evangelicals” sponsored by Southern Baptist. My guess is that not many churches that call themselves “fundamentalist” would have even participated in this.

My point remains Nathan that you need to carefully define what you mean by “fundamental” churches before making such accusatory statements.

Well, if you go read the article where RW supposedly says he is this guys pastor, there are no quotes around the statement. It is attributed to him so that opens up another whole world of possibilities for what was said.

The statistics are correct. The reason lies within the culturally assimilated church. The answer? Revival.

Amen, nathan. You and I come from different perspectives but we can agree that what the church does now doesn’t work. It will be interesting to see the statistics ten years from now in the emerging churches to see if they show any improvement.

My subjective guess is that we will find the same failings across the board. Methods are good, but power is essential.

Something missing from this whole discussion is the fact that Warren seems to want to take credit for much without taking responsibility for anything. If you ever listen to him in a public forum he will repeatedly boast about how many pastors he has trained when in fact they may have simply attended a PD “workshop” – yet he claims this as if to say he deserves credit for their efforts. But you call him to account on anything and he is doused in grease and or teflon by himself and his “fans”.

Jesus said in Matt 7:15-23:
15″Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16″You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17″So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18″A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19″Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20″So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21″Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22″Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’
23″And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

The “ravenous wolf” False Prophets come in sheeps clothing – as “Christian” brothers who are teachers – not outsiders from without but insiders working to destroy the body from within.

Sound like anyone? RW has pitted more church members against one another than any other pastor in the past 100 years, he promotes “style” over substance to the point of dismissing oponents of his methods from the churches they have given time, talent and treasure to build and we’ve got his supporters stuck saying things like: “Of course Warren isn’t perfect; I’m really not a fan of the “Purpose Driven Life” myself, but there is no excuse for the way he is treated by these people.” or “Can anyone show me where Warren said that he’s this guy’s pastor?” [Sorry Mark but that link has been provided or the quotes shown repeatedly in the articles mentioned. It is clear that Warren wants credit for being the pastor of such a rich and famous individual with power and “prestige” for what he owns and manages – but none of the responsibility. Back to my initial point.

Bill,
Blessings to you and yours. Welcome!

Amy,

What are you doing to hold Ken Silva accountable?

Amy,
“Warren has been called “America’s pastor.” How can he be accountable only to Saddleback?”

Are you really serious here? The America’s pastor was something that the media has called him, not some title he gave himself. Certainly he can’t expect to submit to every American, or even everyone who has heard him speak or bought his book. That’s just ridiculous. He is accountable to Saddleback because they pay his salary, and he has agreed to submit to their board. Everyone else can vote with their posketbooks, as they say.

This is just getting ridiculous. It’s fine if people don’t like Warren, but to start a vendetta against the man is certainly not acting in Christian love.

I know there are some people who really do think that Warren is preparing the way for the Anti-Christ, but honestly, I don’t have the time of day for that type of thinking. Seriously, if these people put as much energy as they spend tearing people down into something useful, maybe we could see some positive change in the Church. Instead we keep on going in circles.

Amy, What I don’t understand is why do you come back here. I’m not saying this because I want you to leave. I don’t. I just don’t understand. I mean, you think I’m sarcastic, Nathan’s arrogant, and Chris L is “often wrong.” Do you just come here for what Neil writes?

This thread is not edifying to the body of Christ. Bill, your post was truth. We are to test every spirit to see if they are from Christ. PD has been divisive. Rick Warren has been quoted at times by papers that are not trying to critique him in any way, in fact sometimes they are trying to praise him. In doing so the quotes at times still come off as less than Christian. An example would be the quotes attributed to Warren in the Jewish Journal. They were praising him for not mentioning the name of Jesus the whole evening he spoke at Synagogue 3000. This is not a good thing despite the fact the Jews meant it to be a compliment. The Jewish Journal attributed Warren as saying he was not there to convert the Jews and that we have enough Christian souls to worry about. This is not good. I do not believe that any Christian would say this, knowing full well that anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ, does not belong to Christ. The Jews do not accept Jesus as their messiah. What a wonderful opportunity Rick Warren had to share with these lost souls that their Savior has come and His name is Jesus. But he was silent……

We must test every spirit to see whether they are from Christ.

Note to all:

I, as a Christian, submit myself to the scrutiny of my fellow church members to hold me accountable for my actions, my sinful ways and when necessary to their discipline if it be required, such is the condition of the heart of a GENUINE believer, AKA one who is “IN CHRIST”. As such I fully expect that my pastor should adress any sinful tendencies, lifestyles, I am engaged in should it come to his attention in a large congregation or directly witnessed by him in a smaller congregation of believers.

To have a “pastor” and his “minions” or supporters bent on and committed to removing the responsibility of accountability of the pastor and the church is in all honesty an indicator of the sad state of affairs of the church in America and elsewhere where the Western-driven easy believism diet has been swallowed whole.

Chris L – I would invite you to read the whole passage I provided, specifically vss 21-23 which includes on of the most scary passages in Scripture in my opinion where Jesus declares to many, “I NEVER knew you, DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ (emphasis on NEVER mine – other emphasis is in the NASB).

BTW – Love, GENUINE love, does not stand silent while one walks headlong and blindly towards a steep cliff, but rather love warns of the fate of one who continues in such a path of deception and confusion. Did Jesus not clearly expose the rich young rulers idol and explain to him the conditions of his “desired” fate, and in his refusal to submit leave him to his own destruction? One version of the story even submits that Jesus “loved him” and then issues the demands to die to his loved possessions and self and to sell it all and follow Him. Why would we call ouselves followers of Him yet reduce the demands to saying a simple prayer and that is all you need to do as Warren has done in PDL (p. 57-58) and repeatedly through his website, videos, messages, etc…? When you lay out a “plan of salvation” like that you have all kinds of “lawless” individuals claiming to be Christians when in fact they have never been born of the Spirit of God.

Therein is a huge element of this entire problem.

Joe M, thanks for the greeting. Blessings to you as well.

Nathan asks: Why is CRN not investigating who MacArthur is pastoring at Grace?

Nathan does JM run around bragging about who he pastors at GCC? Nope! Does he practice Biblical church discipline at GCC? Absolutely they do. You can imply the need, but anyone who looks at GCC will see a properly functioning body of believers growing in faith and in maturity from the faithful preaching of God’s word. I had the opportunity to attend one Sunday and the atmosphere and condition of the body in the church was beyond my greatest expectation. The sense of a desire for the teaching of God’s word was palpable and when JM went to the word the air was filled with the sound of pages turning to feed from His word. I am sure they would welcome such scrutiny and the standards to which they might be held would be far lower than those they hold themselves to.

A few thoughts…

Pastor Ken has described it as it ought to be – accountability is essential to the life and function of a Christian ministry. Without it you end up with the risk of fulfilling this passage: “The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, But he who heeds counsel is wise.” Prov. 12:15

See also Deut. 12:7-9, Judges 17:5-7 or 21:24-25, Prov. 21:1-3

Joe,
Why did you ever write on SLICE?

Ken,
Thank you.

Nathan,
Issues such as the girl living with her boyfriend need to be addressed by the elders or pastor of a church. That is true of all churches, no matter how large or small, and no matter who the pastor is.

Amy,
What you are proposing is just not possible. I am a campus pastor of a relatively small group, and even keeping track of what is going in say 30-50 peoples’ lives is a near impossible task. Accountability comes through relationship. A pastor’s job is not necessarily to hold every single member of a church accountable, it is “to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up” according to Ephesians. It is not to be a spiritual babysitter. People in churches need to make themselves accountable to each other. I don’t believe every sin issue needs to be dealt with by the pastor, unless it is something that is dealing with the church as a whole.

This is all kind of a moot point in my mind regarding the whole issue with Warren. It is obvious to me that he has been taken out of context, and that this whole issue is a tempest in a teapot (albeit a small teapot that CRN is).

Amy,
Sorry about this, I asked a question and than got consumed with my life as mom and wife!:-)
Here is my take on this. First let me comment on your and Nathans conversation. I do not understand the big deal in saying thousands of kids our having pre-marital sex? Did you want exact numbers from him? If so that than you shoud see why these posts put up from Ken and Chris are ridiculous. Here is why; they do not have any of the actually facts. They are generalizing. All their facts our from the media. I am sure the media never twists the truth or throws in thier own opinions. What they are doing is actually called gossiping! They have turned what the media is saying and making a big to do over it! They have none of the facts.
What is funny to me is that Ken and Chris think that Rick is out there reading their blogs. I am sure he is not. They are in the internet world like a marbel is on a sandy beach! Very little people hear what they are talking about! Half of what they say is not accurate so that turns people away I am sure.
Should their pastors publicly discipline them for gossiping? Should we make a call for all of them to be disciplined publicly for their lies and gossip?

Amy,
What exactly do you expect the leadership to say in the case of someone having a baby out of wedlock? Hey everyone let’s condemn this sinning sinner and kick her out of this church. Why couldn’t she hide her sin like all of us?” At least the girl chose to keep and raise the baby. Dealing with people will always be messy, and the Church will never be perfect this side of Heaven. If the person having a baby out of wedlock was someone in leadership that would be one thing, but someone who is attending that is quite another.

Amy,
Why should a girl who gets pregnant out of wedlock have to stand before the church publicly and tell what happened? I personally think we take this church discipline to far. Where do we draw the line? We all sin every day. Wow, every week in every church there should be public church discpline. It is very obvious when a girl becomes pregnant out of wed lock. The church makes her get up and ask for forgivness and humilate her more! So than people can gossip about her. That is a public sin to so than the next week we need to get them in front of the church. It is a vicious circle! Where in scripture is this whole idea of publicly confessing your sins before the church?

Nathan,

On the 1st point – Matthew 18 is not needed in this situation for the following reason:

RW has a very public and wide reaching ministry that he has PURPOSELY engaged in and therefore is subject to PUBLIC scrutiny – to limit it to private accountability would allow his harmful influence to exist without public correction by Godly ministers of the Word.

As to the “have they contacted him” issue, prior experiences of others who have attempted to deal directly with Mr. Warren have been less than fruitful, case in point the Syria visit as chronicled at WordNet Daily by Joseph Farah http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=53688. Knowing Pastor Ken and Ingrid from their writings – were there a chance to engage Mr Warren in a fruitful discussion about the issue I am confident they would do so, but his track record is not one to lead one to believe he welcomes accountability for his statements.

Point #2 – It would be my belief that were anyone in the leadership to be made aware ofthat situation there would be communication adressing the sinfulness of that situation. But they are not publicly proclaiming their situation nor has it become quite widespread with such potential for destructively influencing the lives of many. Does that make it any less sinful – No. But again the difference is quite clear – Murdoch and Warren have made public proclamation and influence demands accountability.

Warning – OT

It’s amazing that we have 94 comments on this and Slice is getting around 5 comments on their stories.

Did you know there once was a time when Pastor-Teacher-Reverend Silva used to sign his blog posts simply “Ken”? Is it possible there once was a time when PTR Silva didn’t need to attach three titles of respect to his name to try and command it (respect), but instead had an ounce of humility?

It’s true: http://web.archive.org/web/20060521064101/http://www.apprising.org/

I just don’t know of many respected pastors that have a handful of people show up for church in their living room constantly attaching pastor, teacher, and reverend to their name. Mr. Silva, you can preen your multiple titles like the tail feathers of a peacock all you want, but in the end it’s just a whole lot of egotistical fanny shakin (without the youtube video.)

By the way, am I the only one that read the Rick as Rupert’s pastor quote in context as an off-the-cuff remark like “oh yeah, one of his companies published my book, so I guess that makes me his pastor”? Just didn’t seem like a serious proclamation to me.

Ken,
To me that was obviously meant as a joke. It goes on to say that Warren leaned back in his chair and laughed after saying it. To read into otherwise is simply grasping at straws.

Is Murdoch a member of Saddleback? If not, then there is no issue here. Case closed.

Phil,

The process is laid out in Matt 18. If someone sins and a brother or sister confront them and they repent of that sin – there is no need to bring it to a wider group. If they will not to the first person then a group of 2 or 3 approach and offer another opportunity for repentance and restoration – after that it goes to the whole church for a final opportunity to repentance and restoration with the body. Now if it is in leadership then the issue of qualification, based on the position, needs to be addressed – but there are a number of opportunities laid out to reconcile a brother or sister and for them to refuse at all 3 would indicate they are committed more to their sinful life than to their fellowship with the body of Christ. How often do you see this played out in American churches? I have yet to see one account first hand, though I have heard JM in Q&A’s discuss a pending situation they would adress before the body the following Lord’s Day.

why is everything coming up in bold on this now?

Everything is coming up bold because WE’RE ALL SCREAMING! AAHHHH!

So, what title am I using here?

that was obviously meant as a joke.

The quote where Rick says he’s Rupert’s pastor is from 2005. This next is a year later and the OC Examiner takes it as serious as well:

“Warren says he is pastor to Rupert Murdoch,…”

http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/05/purpose_driven.html

Pastor Teacher Ken,

I certainly hope you’re not checking these comments during your day job as a Study Hall Monitor at Stevens High School. That wouldn’t be an honorable use of public school resources relating to your job.

Somehow, remembering “The Breakfast Club” just got a tad too surreal…

Ken mentioned in a missive some time ago that he is no longer employed at the high school. Which probably explains why we see so much from him now…

I fixed the bold.

Also, I just find it funny/interesting that:

1) Warren’s actual quote seems to be an off-the-cuff comment with context that implies some level of sarcasm.

2) Murdoch doesn’t live in Orange County or attend Saddleback

3) The OC article doesn’t contain a direct quote (and one wonders if the first source isn’t the only one in question).

4) At this point, Chris R publicly calling for Warren to answer for Murdoch is like the Under-minister of Public Works in Canturbury England calling upon the Mayor of New York City to take the Atlanta post office to task for offensive posters in their locker rooms.

Erica,
You took what I said a bit too far. I don’t think that public confession before the whole church is always necessary. I’m talking about some sign of repentance, period. An acknowledgement to someone that what happened was wrong. An acknowledgement by those in leadership that what happened is not condoned by the church.

Instead of statements like, “Oh, that’s nothing.” Or having the person offer the baby for baptism or confirmation as the child of a person in good standing with Christ, when no change, sorrow is noted in that person.

People who commit such sins need to be loved enough to be helped through repenting of that sin. Love isn’t ignoring it, or showing in little ways that it’s “no big deal.” Love may manifest itself through a friend or an older woman taking another woman who finds herself in a situation like this, and supporting her in whatever way she can – and part of that support is not glossing over sin but acknowledging it, and having a support group that encourages spiritual growth.

Young people and new believers watch how the church handles such things. If they are treated as “no big deal” another person who may already be questioning what is moral and what isn’t can follow in the footsteps of someone who has made a poor decision.

Comment from Bill
Time: May 9, 2007, 2:52 pm

Phil,
A church I was in went through a long discussion on church discipline, and the conclusion we came to is basically the same as what Bill shared, “The process is laid out in Matt 18. If someone sins and a brother or sister confront them and they repent of that sin – there is no need to bring it to a wider group. If they will not to . . . ”

We also talked about some sticky situations, like child molestation, people confronting people of the opposite sex about sexual offenses, etc, and ended up agreeing that in some situations the brother/sister confronting brother/sister
alone as the first step cannot apply . . .

I don’t disagree with you. I was just a little confused by what you said. Thank you for explaining.
Ok based on what you just said. Why should Warren use church discipline on someone that does not go to his church? and why should he discipline Murdock in a very public manner but not our brothers in Christ who feel the need to gossip on a public forum. Such as the internet. You said you agreed with Chris R solution to these accusations made agianst Warren and so I am wondering how you feel this should all work.

Phil,
Also, we discussed scenarios in which it might be wise for a person to encourage the people who are “caught in an offense” to seek counseling, help from someone else. For example, we talked about how some of us could confront someone who we knew was having an adulterous relationship, yet some of us might not be able to give those people the help that they need to not stumble again.

Bill,
Several people including myself have already commented on that quote and the context of it. It is obvious that Warren can do no right in some people’s eyes, and I’m not going to waste any more time explaining it. In the end people will believe what they want to believe.

I am not against church discipline when it is done in the correct context and spirit. This whole thing about Warren and Rupert is really more about CRN playing “Gotcha” than anything else. Personally, I believe there is a lot of unspoken jealousy towards Warren. I don’t believe the man is a perfect pastor, and I can’t even say I agree with all he says. But the fact that he is getting attacked like this by Christians is not right. We do not know all the facts here, and the way I see the few facts that are presented lead me to completely different conclusion than the one CRN and the fundawatchblogs are drawings.

In a nutshell:

CR?N/Slice 2.0: Dear Rick Warren, gossips Christians need to know what you are doing about a subsidiary of Rupert Murdoch’s company which sells smut. We only desire this so that we might embarrass you and find another reason to hound you and your church see Christ lifted up.*

____________________-

*- granted, no matter what you would do in response to this, we would still hold you up as a latter day False Prophet, selling out the gospel to increase the number of “Christians” attending your sold-out, luke-warm churches that we will never darken the door of, but will judge until the cows come home.

Amy,
That is my point, Warren is not his pastor. I believe he said that tongue and cheeck. I agree with you I think it is absurd to think that Warren can discipline Murdock just like it would be absurd to call Warren and ask him to discipline Ken or Chris. He is not any of their pastors.
We have no idea what kind of relationship Ken and Murdock have outside of the media and other gossiping christians. I just think them writting about something like this is petty.

Erica,
If he isn’t Murdoch’s pastor, then it would be simple for him to simply say so.

Chris,
I don’t understand why would they ask him when he has already said he is?

Phil give me a break man. Anytime Warren says something that requires he be held accountable his supporters fall over themselves and defile themselves by either saying the quote was taken out of context, as if they can read the mind of another and we should NOT just take what he says to mean what he says. There is nothing in the entire article to imply he was joking or jesting – that fact remains as it always has – he claimed to be the mans pastor and a pastor who is fulfilling his role WILL discipline known sinful lifestyles that threaten and defile the body of believers to whom he serves. Anything less than that makes the “pastor” a lover of man and NOT a lover of God, despite eternal proclamations to the contrary. The other method used is to diminish the entire issue altogether and in so doing they have created a god in their own image which, Phil and anyone else involved in this defense of Warren, is IDOLATRY! Because you have ignored the clear mandates of Scripture and fashioned a more palatable god who comforts your sinful conscience.

I remember it saying in Romans 1:28-32 the following:

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

You said to Amy about CRN and Slice an echoing of Chris L’s comment “there is nothing he would say that would satisfy them.” That is not the truth Phil and for you to bear false witness against them like that shows a disdain for God’s law that emanates in your writing and shows no fear of any consequences for violating the laws or commandments of God. Jesus said in Jn 14:21 “He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and manifest Myself to him.” Then there is what He said in Jn 14:15 ““If you love Me, keep My commandments.” If that weren’t clear enough He followed those up with Jn 15:10 in which He says: “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.”

1 John 2:3 further amplifies this point where John by the power of the Holy Spirit wrote: Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

There is ample evidence to support Chris and Pastor Ken and Ingrid in their assessment of the ministry and fruits of Warren and others and they are answering the often ignored call by our Lord to practice discernment and protect the church from false teaching, false prophets, deceivers and demonic influences which damage the image of the God you claim to serve. The same cannot be said about your ad hominem attack on the character of these 3. Pity. What a pity.

nathan,

Sure, Bill will just pick up the phone and call Rupert Murdoch. How about you? Have you tried to be a journalist and contact “brother” Murdoch to get his views? Nah, didn’t think so.

But how about dealing with what Bill actually said. After all that’s what you claim I don’t do. You aren’t a hypocrite are you? Or could it be that all those Bible verses frighten you?

Phil,
In jest? Possibly. It may be clear to you, but it certainly isn’t to me, no matter how many times you “point it out.” I don’t understand why anyone would say such a thing in jest.

Ken or Bill,
Sometime I would like to have an understanding of the whole “Ken Blanchard coming on board with the PEACE plan” incident. I remember listening to the intro to the PEACE plan several years ago and hearing Warren talking about it, along with the one-minute greeting from Blanchard. When confronted about his associations with Blanchard by Lighthouse Trails Warren picked up on the point that he never HIRED Blanchard. He said nothing about his working with the PEACE plan. So did Ken Blanchard never work with the PEACE plan? Was Warren just name-dropping or did the plan for Blanchard to be in on the plan get dropped for some reason?

I’ve always wondered about this. When I first started looking into Warren besides issues in The Purpose Driven Church, his association with Blanchard was one of the main things that bothered me. I remember going to the Hoffman Quandrinity Process site for which Blanchard was on the board and reading about a lady contacting her spirit guide. I thought, Warren must surely be aware of this – who is he to be bringing someone like this into a work that is supposed to be partially about beliefs?

Phil,
If you never have, please look at the things I’ve written on here previously about Warren. I don’t know where they all are, but the first was under the “Saddleback Christmas” post I believe.

I am not “out to get” Rick Warren. I see again and again that he doesn’t answer to legitimate biblical concerns that people have about him. The philosophy that he teaches about working with anybody, and his lack of sharing the gospel when he can, and the very way he has shared the gospel on the initial Purpose Drive videos aren’t things that cause me to think I have to find some incriminating evidence for Warren. The concerns are already there. I just wish people would not treat someone who essentially plays a large role in many churches through his teaching and training materials and seminars as someone who is above accountability.

Bill,
For the record, I really do not like Rick Warren. It is more for personal reasons than scriptural. Just because I do not care for him does not mean I have to bash him or gossip about him or mis quote him. That is what people do not get; just because I do not personally care for the forty days of purpose and stuff does not mean everything the man does is wrong. This whole isssue over Murdock is gossip. Do you believe everything you read in the tabloids? Even if Nathan gets an answer from him when he goes to California I have yet to see a response on what Warren is suppose to do to Murdock. How do you publicly discpline someone who is not in your church? Even if his claim to be the guys pastor wasn’t in jest. How do you discpline someone who is not in your church?

Amy when Warren says things like he doesn’t have to believe in 80% of what someone else believes to partner with them, it is easy to see how he might justify working with anyone regardless of what they believe and promote. Case in point his partnership to address the AIDS issue within the confines of the mainstream medical pharmaceutical approach which has grave consequences. Anyone entrenched in that battle needs to Google Matthias Rath and see how he addresses this issue and the way he has been vilified despite giving all South Africans FREE assistance with a CURE for AIDS which the media ignores.

But I digress.

Phil said: “my point through this whole thing is that I do not believe there is sufficient evidence for them to make the claims they are making”

Therein lies the problem Phil, facts being what they are and what have been shown to clearly indicate Murdoch to be a porn peddler and Warren to claim to be his pastor you are still going to believe what you believe. I will refer you to my previous post about what the Bibles says with regard to everyone doing what was right in their own eyes. Pity.

And Nathan, sure I’ll hop right on the phone and contact Rupert, I’m sure he’ll take time out of his schedule lining out the next Page 3 issue to speak with me about how how needs to repent from his pornography promoting businesses. The fact is Warren is in the public eye and could make a powerful message were he to deal with this and the business be removed, even silently, that would indicate he takes this pastor thing seriously, but I think I would fall out of my seat in amazement were he to respond in any pastorly manner to this issue. Based on experiences in his past and how he deals with accountability.

Rick,
Good post. That whole “bless those who curse you” is something the Church needs a little (ok, a lot of) help with. We can’t even bless those who disagree with us, it seems.

So “prayer, tears, fasting, or even grieving for your opponent” is now looked upon as whining and sniveling. I believe that “bless those who curse you” and “love your enemies” and “don’t return railing for railing” are still part of the Sword we are wielding unless there has been a new one forged.

Weild the Sword with clarity and conviction, but always sharpened with God’s love and with a redemptive motive.

Chris you have a misguided view of what love truly is. It is not wrapped in deceit, it does not stand silent and watch a “brother” or even an “enemy” bathe themselves in immmorality and hypocrisy, it does not take joy from the task of exposing the sinfulness of another but must act when God’s word is aggressively ignored and His church defiled.

I take no joy in Christians failing, in fact if you would look at my writings I think you would understand I do not view Rick Warren as a Christian and Rupert Murdoch is revealing he has never been regerated by the power of the Holy Spirit, otherwise he would not be engaged in the issues being discussed and debated.

It is not a Fundamentalist issue, it is a matter of protecting the church of God from the lies and deceit that have infiltrated it and parade around in lawlessness and iniquity and call themselves blood bought members of the Body of Christ.

I understand that we are to love our enemy, however I am quite clear in what love does. As I stated before Mark 10:20-22 clearly shows Jesus held back nothing from exposing the very nature of the heart of man when He responded to the rich young rulers inquiry and the story ended as follows:

Then Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One thing you lack: Go your way, sell whatever you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, take up the cross, and follow Me.”
But he was sad at this word, and went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

I know what it says in 1 John that if you do not love your brother you are not born of God – I know what that means and I know for a fact that you know next to nothing about my character, my walk with the Lord and my motives for writing in here. Like Ken, Ingrid and Chris I simply write that the Lord might use my efforts to redirect someone from the path of error to the path of Truth.

What do you write for?

Bill,

You wrote:

I take no joy in Christians failing, in fact if you would look at my writings I think you would understand I do not view Rick Warren as a Christian

Really? THAT kind of puts it in a nutshell, then. Who are you to determine this, from someone who claims to be a Christian, and whose fruit would back up his claim, as well? That’s certainly an arrogant proclaimation of certainty in an area only God can judge.

It is also at the heart of the matter. I DO believe Rick Warren (and many others unfairly, unbiblically and maliciously maligned by CR?N/Slice) is a Christian, and the flurry of activity in regards to this one story can barely contain the glee found in decrying everything about RW.

I took the comment about “loving your neghbor” from your early statement – which seemed to only equate “love” with preventing them from going over a cliff (and Ken’s oft-used canard emphasising “love” as showing your brother’s error to him). In “loving your neighbor”, Jesus’ example was a Samaritan – considered apostate and worse than an enemy because the Samaritan people worshipped God in the wrong way. I don’t recall anyone in the parable dressing the guy down for the error in his theology (worshipping God on the wrong mountain)…

You asked

What do I write for?

I write in defense of Christ and the HIS Church, which Ken, Ingrid and yourself attack. I write to defend men and women of God under attack by modern day Pharisees like yourselves, to whom Jesus spoke:

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.”

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.”

[...] “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!”

I write for Him who spoke those words, and against the behavior spoken against.

The problem is not too many here see you as one of God’s instructors. A term the religious leaders of Jesus’ day claimed by the way.

Fair enough, Ken.

Well stated Pastor Ken.

Phil said:
“Who are you to determine this, from someone who claims to be a Christian, and whose fruit would back up his claim, as well? That’s certainly an arrogant proclaimation of certainty in an area only God can judge.”

Jesus said in Matt 7:15-23 the following:
A Tree and Its Fruit
15″Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.
16″You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?

23″And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

By this we know the following:
1. Many who have prophesied, cast out demons and witnessed miracles in His name will be told the following: “I NEVER KNEW YOU”
2. Not everyone who claims, even passionately, Jesus as their Lord (which the Lord Lord in the greek denotes, they convincingly believed they were serving Him and committed to Him, but were self-deceived) will be received into Heaven on the day of Judgment.
3. We will know them by their fruits and are admonished to keep watch for they will come up from within the church as sheep, not uncovered in wolves clothing.

Maybe you might take a look at the following passages and see how God feels about false prophets: Deut 13:1-10, I’ll post vss 5-10 here:

5″But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk So you shall purge the evil from among you.
6″If your brother, your mother’s son, or your son or daughter, or the wife you cherish, or your friend who is as your own soul, entice you secretly, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods’ (whom neither you nor your fathers have known, 7of the gods of the peoples who are around you, near you or far from you, from one end of the earth to the other end), 8you shall not yield to him or listen to him; and your eye shall not pity him, nor shall you spare or conceal him.
9″But you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
10″So you shall stone him to death because he has sought to seduce you from the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.

Or Jeremiah 23 which states:

1″Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of My pasture!” declares the LORD.
2Therefore thus says the LORD God of Israel concerning the shepherds who are tending My people: “You have scattered My flock and driven them away, and have not attended to them; behold, I am about to attend to you for the evil of your deeds,” declares the LORD.

15″Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts concerning the prophets,
‘Behold, I am going to feed them wormwood
And make them drink poisonous water,
For from the prophets of Jerusalem
Pollution has gone forth into all the land.’”
16Thus says the LORD of hosts,
“Do not listen to the words of the prophets who are prophesying to you
They are leading you into futility;
They speak a vision of their own imagination,
Not from the mouth of the LORD.
17″They keep saying to those who despise Me,
‘The LORD has said, “You will have peace”‘;
And as for everyone who walks in the stubbornness of his own heart,
They say, ‘Calamity will not come upon you.’
18″But who has stood in the council of the LORD,
That he should see and hear His word?
Who has given heed to His word and listened?
19″Behold, the storm of the LORD has gone forth in wrath,
Even a whirling tempest;
It will swirl down on the head of the wicked.
20″The anger of the LORD will not turn back
Until He has performed and carried out the purposes of His heart;
In the last days you will clearly understand it.
21″I did not send these prophets,
But they ran.
I did not speak to them,
But they prophesied.
22″But if they had stood in My council,
Then they would have announced My words to My people,
And would have turned them back from their evil way
And from the evil of their deeds.
23″Am I a God who is near,” declares the LORD,
“And not a God far off?
24″Can a man hide himself in hiding places
So I do not see him?” declares the LORD
“Do I not fill the heavens and the earth?” declares the LORD.

I don’t include these to reveal anything more than God’s view of those who misguide His flock through prophesy (teaching) and self-indulgent deceit.

It appears God’s word doesn’t have any effect on you Chris so I’ll leave you with this final thought from 1 John 3:3-10:

3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

5You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

6No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

7Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Enough said…

Bill,

That last verse is the key to what you are missing….

You seem to stop at the Law and miss Grace…

Here is the rest of the passage you edited to fit your view…

11. This is the message you heard from the beginning: We should love one another.
12. Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother’s were righteous.
13. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you.
14. We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death.
15. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him.
16. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers.
17. If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?
18. Dear children, let us not love with words or tongue but with actions and in truth.
19. This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence
20. whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
21. Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God
22. and receive from him anything we ask, because we obey his commands and do what pleases him.
23. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.
24. Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

Notice that the righteousness we practice is to love one another? read further and see that John has THIS as his theme… as he does in his Gospel…

Also, not that John himself defines what the commandments we are to do are… these very commands that “prove” we are children of God… notice verse 23?

1 John 4:19 -21
19. We love because he first loved us.
20. If anyone says, “I love God,” yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen.
21. And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.

You also are mixing Law and Grace and nullifying both… and we are to live by Faith by His Grace… “The Just shall live by His Faith” Habakkuk 2:4 states as well as it’s variations in Romans, Galatians and Hebrews. If you teach the Law then it is not by faith… and that is the version of the Gospel Ken and you are pushing… a none Grace Christianity…

Blessings,
iggy

Ken,
Well Ken you better study better…

Yes we are engrafted on, yet, you are still mixing Law and Grace… I am not whining I am speaking clear scripture…
so address the scriptures I stated. and the so prove you are worthy to instruct… me or anyone… so far you stand wanting in your abilities…

(Maybe the real issue is that us “emergents” hold a higher value to the actual teachings of scripture over your “systematic theology” so we whine as your teaching corrupts the TRUTH that Scripture teaches.)

If Jesus being God… and God cannot change… then how do you explain Jesus “learning” obedience unto death as in Hebrews 5.

Instead of admonishing me… you need to read and study the WHOLE of scripture. You miss the major tenets of faith by your very teachings.

Jesus is God.. and His CHARACTER never changes… that does not mean God does not change things or even cannot change His mind… remember the Flood?

If God never changes in the view you hold, then God would never had created the Heavens and the Earth… He would just have been, content with His selfness.

Your far from a teacher and need to be taught… you are far from understanding even the basics…

So, I will not presume to instruct God’s instructors… if they line up with scripture… and that is what your issue is… you don’t.

So, if God cannot change and Jesus was God… how could Jesus being God learn? You have stated He can’t and scripture stated He did… I believe scripture to be right over any way you twist it…

God does give Grace to the Humble… and it seems that you despise humility by your last comment.

Also your answers are not entirely correct… the New Israel is Jesus and the children of Abraham are by faith… there is no Jew of Gentile in Christ… we are all en-grafted on to the same tree being Jesus Himself. The children of faith are not separated into the Jews and the Church… the two men are now one man… or do you not understand the NT teachings on this also?

The OT is where man suffers the wrath of God for his own sin… it is by death. Romans is very clear on this also I recommend you read it without your “Calvinist/I am not a Calvinist” /reformed glasses… read it in it’s pure historical context and by asking with a humble heart for understanding… Go dis faithful He will instruct you in truth.

Also, your statement: “Whatever God said re. hate, loving, grace, anywhere in Holy Scripture applies.” Though superficially may be true… lacks any real understanding in what you are actually saying. If that statement is as you say… then if your child is disobedient you should take him outside of town and stone him to death… lepers should be left outside of town to die or heal and only be let into town if they are deem “clean”. If you are wearing a cotton blend you are sinning. And that is the point I first made… you are mixing Law and Grace and have lost the purity of both… you have watered down the Law by your teaching and have reduced Grace to nothing… You are negating the very death, burial and resurrection of Jesus by your teachings..

Again,

Blessings,
iggy

Rick and Phil I would finally invite you to read Jude where we are called to contend earnestly for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. But I am sure there are passages you would much rather focus on, be that as it may, I will leave it at that.

Chris L,

I am sure you are posing a sincere question so I will answer that one. Contending for the faith that was “once for all delivered to the saints” would fall under your #1 of loving God. Since it is God’s word, and God’s doctrine and God’s son Jesus that is meant by” faith that was once for all delivered to the saints”. When we, all Christians, contend for the faith, we are contending for Jesus and His eternal word. I would say that definately falls under the Loving God commandment.

Love in Christ,
Rachel

Rachel,
I think contending for the faith is required, but I personally wouldn’t put Warren in the category of the type of person who is being described in Jude. I know some Fundamentalists absolutely hate the man and think of him as some sort of scourge on the church, but I can’t say that.

A lot of this just comes down to power and church politics. In a lot of smaller churches there are usually a handful of families that have been there forever. The grey-haired matriarch plays organ, and the husband is on the board. The church barely brings in enough money to pay the bills. Well along comes a new pastor. He implements some things Warren suggests, upsets that family, and suddenly the church is in turmoil. Whose fault is it? Nine times out of ten I vote for the old, powerful family. Now, I’m not against respecting elders and the like, but just because someone is older doesn’t mean they’re necessarily wiser. I come from a long line of preachers, and I’ve seen all kinds of church problems in my life. I’ve seen some idiot pastors, but the number of them is small compared to other troublemakers in churches. Anyways, that’s my two cents.

I like how Mark Driscoll states it (I have to paraphrase from memory). He says something like, “everyone gets sad and upset about churches dying, but I believe for some churches it’s the best thing that could happen. They need to die so new life can spring up.” Harsh but true.

Bill, that is a very serious and solemn exhortation from the Lord, especially in these days. I too believe that Rick Warren has compromised the overall message of the gospel through sales strategies, easy believism, and some of his more public alliances with outspoken unbelievers.

My only point was that I cannot view him as not being saved even though he has been deceived in many areas. And if there are those who do not sense the Spirit in him, they must come before the throne of grace and weep for his soul. I believe you are earnest when you said you take no joy in another brother’s failing.

Let us all come before our Master in repentance and ask Him for a fresh anointing of power that will set the captives free!

Rachel,

So – by this logic, since God told the Jews they were not to do any work on the Sabbath, the Pharisees were correct to criticize Jesus’ decision to work on the Sabbath – to heal a crippled person (not a life-threatening condition) on the Sabbath.

“Contending for the faith” often gets taken to an extreme when it comes to what is ‘essential’ (or what is ‘rightly dividing’), and ‘loving one’s neighbor’ takes the shaft.

I go back to the Parable of the Good Samaritan. In this parable, given in answer to questions about ‘loving ones neighbor’, the protagonist is a Samaritan – all of whom were considered apostate for worshipping God in the wrong way. Where in the parable, given by Jesus about this very question, do we see the importance of ‘loving our neighbor’ by nit-picking the finer points of Theology?

“We all need to be teachable, and I know that for the grace of God go I.”

O pleeeeaaaassseee…this is perhaps the most UNteachable bunch I’ve seen.

Matt,

Read carefully now: This is perhaps the most UNteachable bunch I’ve seen. Not the same thing.

Tried to respond Chris L and Phil but the sites wigging. Saying duplicate comment when it’s not posting the original. So sad.

Rachel,

Um, ok.

Ken,

You stated this: “Read carefully now: This is perhaps the most UNteachable bunch I’ve seen. Not the same thing.”

maybe if you were a REAL teacher we would hear you… I have learned a lot from Chris L and others here… so i am not sure who is UNteachable… ummm yes I do…. YOU! LOL!

Blessings,
iggy

Bill,

You may be right… yet that is why I lean solely on Christ to guide me and not someone like Ken… in that the Holy Spirit is the Teacher…

Matthew 23 8-17 teaches us well to not brag on our own teaching abilities…

8. “But you are not to be called `Rabbi,’ for you have only one Master and you are all brothers.
9. And do not call anyone on earth `father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.
10. Nor are you to be called `teacher,’ for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
11. The greatest among you will be your servant.
12. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.
13. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.
15. “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.
16. “Woe to you, blind guides! You say, `If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’
17. You blind fools! Which is greater: the gold, or the temple that makes the gold sacred?

So I boast and teach on the Gold of God’s grace and fall at His feet for mercy… in that I do not care for man’s opinion… I care for the pure teachings of Christ through His Spirit…

A man may be wise but if he boasts in his own wisdom and knowledge I can safely say the knowledge has puffed him up and pride keeps him from truly understanding…

That is why I teach but do not boast at my teaching… and I fear more when men praise me for my teaching than when I am scorned by them.

So, I am blind, yet Jesus is my very eyes… and I walk by Faith and not by sight… and lead others to follow Jesus and not me…

Blessings,
iggy

Hey Iggy, that last comment was very Christ honoring and seemed to be coming full of the Spirit (especially the last several paragraphs). In all that sentiment I say “amen”, let it be so for all of us.

Rick,

For some reason my post seem to not be going through… but if it did already it would be a repeat of this…

Thanks…
I think….

(considering the ” I fear more when men praise me for my teaching than when I am scorned by them.”)

LOL!

Blessings,
iggy

Bill,

this proves that you no nothing about me at all…

and even more that you if Jesus is your Lord that is fine… but Jesus has become my very life… to keep Him at arms length as Lord, misses that He is now our Brother… the first born of the New Creation… of which we are joint heirs in Christ Jesus…

Lordship’s focus is on one’s own fruit… and God is the one who produces His fruit in us… it is not our fruit… if it is it is works and it is bad… a bad tree cannot near good fruit only a good tree can. As Jesus stated, “Only God is good.”

You are following a teaching that is teaching that YOU can bear good fruit… and that is not what the scripture teaches… we are engrafted to Jesus and God bear His good fruit in and through us… it is not of us at all… It is His good works not ours.

So to say that I am doing things my way after thinking about what I just stated I think would be a foolish statement… as I depend solely on Christ’s finished works for my salvation and though He is not just “Lord”, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords… and my brother as He declared.

To go and live under the bondage of producing your own fruit and I will continue to walk in Christ and be amazed that God bears His fruit in and through me… in spite of me.

Blessings,
iggy

Bill,

I actually think that is very accurate… in fact i see that the main thing in the Christian life is not to stop sinning but to Live the Life of Christ through the power of the Resurrection…

So, I am still lost at your point as to how I am to see this as wrong?

Blessings,
iggy

Nathan and Bill,

I agree, method really can change… the message does not.

What i find interesting is that in all this we are to worship in Spirit and in Truth… in that there is much freedom and living sacrifices to worship God in that freedom.

To start placing a specific model and structure in place of worship by the Spirit unto God. (notice I am not saying the we can do anything… yet even a basketball player can worship God as he shoots hoops… so worship is not limited to “church” or a “service” or “Singing” or a “sermon” but it is a way that we interact with God in us…

I also want to state that this last few exchanges have been really refreshing as i sense respect from you Bill in that you were not intending to “jab” but sincerely wanted our opinion on what you were stating.

Blessings,
iggy

Rick,

we can disagree that is fine…

but.

1. Jesus prayed it to be “on earth as it is in heaven”
2. Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God–this is your spiritual act of worship.

3. Romans 6:10-11 The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God. In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

4. Romans 14: 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

5. Romans 14: 17 -18. For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

The difference to me is I do not compartmentalize my worship to God …. I am His and He is my very Life… so all I do is unto God. And that is worship…

Blessings,
iggy

I agree with all of it, but I contend that there are special moments or seasons of worship that reveal a greater and more intimate glimpses of our Lord and Savior. Just hearing some of your words I know you can identify with that.

In those moments I have lost all sense of time or even self and I am captured just briefly by eternity. If that makes me a mystic, so be it!

I would say, Nathan, that is close but I still contend that she should have moments where she does not play anything and just falls in brokenness and worship. Many musicians honor the Lord with their praise filled playing, I am a pianist and singer, but most of the time you must pay attention to the notes which is a distraction.

I know I am drawing a fine line here, but total worship in the Holiest of All place requires an unusual withdrawing from this world and a corresponding unusual drawing unto Him. Just to give you some perspective about where I personally am coming from, I am very wide open in my view of worship.

I openly enjoy a charismatic worship service even if I would not be edified by some of their preaching (money, prosperity, etc.). I have danced before the Lord, I have wept before Him, I have shouted before Him, I have fallen prostrate before Him, and I have experienced things that could not be translated into words. I often feel sorry for people who are starchy and scripted about their worship.

This of course is another area about which the orthodox crowd feels uncomfortable with me. And Chris L., I write and sing and enjoy many Jewish sounding songs which many reformed churches won’t even try. Here is one I wrote fifteen years ago:

God had said to Abrahwm, for my glory’s sake
I will make a covenant that I will not forsake
Count the stars up in the sky, they’re the sons I’ll give to you
I’ll provide a sacrifice, Messiah’s blood will make them new

(Chorus)
Shalom, shalom, shalom Jerusalem
Shalom, shalom, shalom Jerusalem

Israel’s surrounded now in God’s holy place
Enemies are all around, she must seek His face
Jehovah is a mighty God, His deliverance will not cease
Lift your heads redemption’s nigh, soon will come the Prince of Peace.

We have now been grafted in God’s life giving vine
We who once were without God, the Father now calls “mine”
Awake, awake O Israel, God has not cast you away
Dress yourself Jerusalem, Soon will come your wedding day!

Thanks for the long comment, I wanted to share how strongly and freely I believe in worshiping Him who is due all of our praise and worship!!

iggy you said: “I agree, method really can change… the message does not.”

People keep saying that but they do so in ignorance of what was preached in days of old where revival swept through the hearts of men. You think 4 spiritual laws and an opportunity to “ask Jesus into your heart” is the same as what was/is preached by CH Spurgeon, Jonathan Edwards, Luther or Calvin of old and say ML Jones John MacArthur, Paul Washer, Jeff Noblitt, John Piper, RC Sproul etc… currently? Compare their messages to that of your pal MacLaren, Osteen, Noble, Warren, Hybels, and many others today who call themselves professors of God’s word when they exhibit a serious inability to confront man and reveal to him his current state and impossibly irreconcilable condition but by the grace and mercy of an Almighty, Sovereign and Electing God who chose those He would save before the foundation of the world and has promised in His word to exhibit His majesty through their lives given over to Him.

Do you still contend the message hasn’t changed? If so you are in need of reading some on the works of the Spirit in men committed to God and not to men.

Sorry if that doesn’t set well with you, I must say there was a time, in my ignorance of the Word that it didn’t set well with me.

To God Alone goes the glory….

And Chris L., I write and sing and enjoy many Jewish sounding songs which many reformed churches won’t even try. Here is one I wrote fifteen years ago:

God had said to Abrahwm, for my glory’s sake
I will make a covenant that I will not forsake
Count the stars up in the sky, they’re the sons I’ll give to you
I’ll provide a sacrifice, Messiah’s blood will make them new

(Chorus)
Shalom, shalom, shalom Jerusalem
Shalom, shalom, shalom Jerusalem

Israel’s surrounded now in God’s holy place
Enemies are all around, she must seek His face
Jehovah is a mighty God, His deliverance will not cease
Lift your heads redemption’s nigh, soon will come the Prince of Peace.

We have now been grafted in God’s life giving vine
We who once were without God, the Father now calls “mine”
Awake, awake O Israel, God has not cast you away
Dress yourself Jerusalem, Soon will come your wedding day!

That of course is put to a minor key! Thanks for the long comment, I wanted to share how strongly and freely I believe in worshiping Him who is due all of our praise and worship!!