Nathan,

I’ve pointed this out in the past, but Ken displays the classic characteristics of one suffering from a compensation disorder – often displayed in self-educated individuals with low self esteem. Symptoms include an unusual reliance on positional power (including verbal or physical reminders of the individual’s title/position) and associative power given by those in higher authority (including verbal or physical reminders of the higher authority’s title/position). Individuals with this type of disorder have a higher than normal aversion to admitting fault, even when offenses are minor or clearly obvious. Self-educated individuals suffering from compensation disorders also tend to see scholarship as a threat, and so, perversely, they tend to dismiss or denigrate scholarship.

Because they have little or no confidence in their own words and beliefs, they often will speak as if on behalf of a higher authority. As a result, they see opposition of their words and beliefs as opposition to the higher authority.

Does this sound like someone we know?

In Ken’s case, he has to continually remind people of his “anointing”, give veiled threats (on behalf of God) to those who disagree with him. His words aren’t good enough – they MUST have been spoken to him by God. To oppose Ken IS to oppose God. To point out Ken’s error is to suggest that said error is God’s, and since God does not err, Ken must not err. Certainly, he can admit to error in the abstract, but never in the details.

I wonder if the Psych department at the University of New Hampshire is looking for test subjects…

Have you all addressed “Virgilicious?” I have seen a couple of comments under submissions is all. I find it interesting that you would think that Ken’s alleged foibles (which have already been addressed numberous times) are worthy of an article but haven’t addressed what he is addressing.

RayJr…

Yeah and I owned many of the same tapes Ken did… so I am just as edumecated as Ken in the Walter Martin Skool…

Walter did great things… and his effect is still going strong… yet to listen to a few tapes and read his books does not make one a “specialist” nor “educated”… Walter did the research and made major mistakes and lost his marriage and many other things… he was or was not ordained by the SBC… he had or did not have degree from a “accredited” school…

Yet, I regard him greatly…

Ken it seems desires all the accolades of Walter yet lacks the humility of Walter who while out street preaching would be asked a question and if he did not know would say, “I don’t know, I will go look that up and if you come back tomorrow I will give you an answer on that.”… Ken just gives snide remarks on how ignorant and stupid I and others are and how great and high and mighty of a “teacher” he is… no humility just grandiose ideas of self…

So, as far as this video… I have to say… there have been worse and unless Ken has become a Lutheran, he has no business in rebuking other Lutherans… what if a Lutheran rebuked Ken for not taking communion as the Lutheran does? Or if a SBC student spoke words against Luther and his habit of using scatological based swear words and drinking beer….

Luther never wanted to leave the Catholic church… he was excommunicated… and many reformed people miss that… Luther wanted the corruption to stop… and was kicked out… he wanted to stay a Catholic and that is why most Lutheran churches are very much similar to Catholic churches.

It only seems to confirm to me more and more Ken has a mocking religions spirit that care nothing more than to point out those he deems less spiritual as himself.

In that Ken gets his rewards here… in the accolades of fallen men.

blessings,
iggy

Matt,

Great point… as the bible teaches we are the temple and that we worship in Spirit and Truth and not in a location… if I recall the “Temple” was torn down and Rose again on the third day… then around 70AD the Temple was torn down by the Romans… and has yet to be rebuilt if it is to be.

So you point is very good that these people claim scripture and then deny it in their teachings…

Blessings,
iggy

Of course the video exposed the shallowness of people’s spirituality and even the symptoms of a liberal evangelical world. I agree with Matt, here, I was raised a Lutheran and for the most part they do not preach a born again experience.

But when reading all the articles about this video and the school, and stripping away any hyperbole, where are the calls for prayer? Where are the anxious calls for fasting? Can you hear any broken hearts in the writings or just the sound of doctrinal saliva as they feast upon deceived brethren?

Much of the general nature of what some of these blogs address I agree with, but the haughtiness and claims of personal exclusivity obscure the overall point. And the ministry of discernment is not an office in the New Testament, it is part of the Spirit’s ministry through apostles, prophets, and pastor/teachers. When that aspect is removed from the overall office and set up as an office unto itself it lends to pride and authoritarianism because it is without the balance of humility and fallibility.

And finding and exposing error, contrary to the “poor soldier” portrayal some would convey, is infinitely easier that finding, identifying, and repenting of sin in our own spirits. It is impossible to be consumed with error hunting and have a deep and intimate walk with the Savior who is filled with both grace and truth.

Do not get me wrong, as distasteful as some people can be with their high mindedness and their condescending communication, they are in a form of deception themselves and all of us need to pray for them and ourselves.

henry
I seriously disagree with your comkment on discernment. It is not exclusive to the “five-fold” ministry.

Hebrews 5 is speaking to all believers:

13for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. 14But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Let’s hope that there are more in the body distinguishing good from evil than the “elite 5″

I also lead intercession in our church using then model of Daniel, Jehoshaphat, Nehemiah, Ezra etc. These men knew how to pray according to the model given by Jesus in Matthew 6 before he even taught it. You cannot assume that Ken, Ingrid or whomever are not praying and/or calling people to pray. Anyway, 2 Thess 2 tells us that the slide into apostasy will not be reversed, as God himself turns them over to complete deception, since they never loved the truth to begin with. We are sefing a sovereign and just God. Such people will get what they want and deserve.

Chris P,

Matt and Henry answered Amy’s question. It’s a non-story about a group of immature kids and Ken/Ingrid completely misunderstanding that a church building is not a church.

I’m not criticising Ken’s education – just pointing out what appears to be his compensating action to what may be his own insecurity with it. If the shoe fits (and it does), he might as well wear it. After all, one of the key behaviors for those with compensating disorders is to be hypercritical of whose who have been successful in one or more areas in which their self-image is threatened (which kind of explains why anyone leading a large church that deviates the slightest from the dogma of Ken must be “selling out”)….

As for where I picked this up, between psych/counseling classes in college and HR courses in my workplace, this is pretty boiler-plate stuff. Most often compensating disorders deal with physical or sexual attributes, particularly in vertically challenged men (which is where the terms “small man’s disease” or “Napoleon Complex” come from). Ken just happens to exhibit classic symptoms of the disorder, and the pieces fit…

Chris P.

You have no idea what you are even talking about!!!LOL!

When i say “i don’t care” about eh video at a Lutheran school I am saying they can deal with it.. I am not a Lutheran… I trust they will work out… in fact that shows I trust Christ and His Body even more than if i ran around being offended by every little things as those as CRN…

What is revealed also about you in this comment:

“if Martin was really humble (and post-modern) he would say I don’t know, and never come back to give the questioner an answer. Hey wait didn’t the pharisees say they didn’t know when Jesus asked them a question about John’s baptism. Martin would be called arrogant by most of today’s church for even believing he could find an answer.”

1. I am not “postmodern” in my thinking… I am emerging.. and if one even took a superficial look they would see the difference… i have even written on this and the incapability of pure postmodernism and Christianity…
2. Can the tools of PM be use.. .yes. Just as you use the tools of the once evil but now defended “modernism”.
3. To say the way Walter Martin would actually admit his lack of knowledge and show humility as i was saying is a far cry from the slinking back of the Pharisees as they were put in their place by Jesus’ questions… so as far as you point it is lost on me by miles and sees to have no relevance to this discussion… only that you are trying to somehow say that I said Walter Martin was a Pharisee… no I am saying Ken is… LOL!

4. If you had even the simplest grasp at history and the Reformation movement, you would see that Luther was much more a heretic than McLaren, had a worse potty mouth than Driscoll and even taught that James, Hebrews and a few other books as not inspired… so as far as your comment of Martin being arrogant I see yes he would and even then he was… so again, your point is totally lost on me…

again as far as the Lutherans… they are not my flock nor tribe… as far as your comments on Ken and Ingrid… I believe they are and never have stated they were not sincere… yet sincerity proves nothing… a Hindi can sincerely believe his family is cursed and make his 8 year old daughter marry a dog… it was in the news a while back… a Jihadist can sincerely believe he is killing infidels for Allah and doing good…

Sincerity proves nothing… Paul while still called Saul was sincere… and in that found he was sincerely wrong.

So if there is anything “proven” about my comments and then your comments is that you seem to lack much in knowledge and understanding.. and need to go a study a bit more before you place accusations against anyone…

It only shows that you have a grievance against me… in that you better do something about it before you take your next communion… ; )

Blessings,
iggy

“Ken’s teacher was Walter Martin.”
Well….

As near as I can figure, for all Ken talks about Martin being his “mentor” and “teacher”, the reality is that Ken listened to Walter Martin on tape a lot. And read his books.

Ken, feel free to correct me on this, but you never studied under Martin other than via tapes and books, correct?

iggy
you have missed my point entirely. Don’t even know where that tirade came from. As for my study habits I am well aware of church history, Luther etc, most likely more so than you. I was not discussing either here.(btw Luther did not deny the atonement, McClaren ….???? Please!!)
Anyway you typed so many lol’s I would call it nervous laughter. I always know what I am talking about. I waste all my best subtleties on this blog and its contributors..
Ken and Ingrid are not marrying their daughters off to dogs (Oh how I must bite my tongue on that one!!) nor are they killing people for allah, or judaism (Chris L.’s religion of choice)
Finally to matt’s angst:
“Then why do we need discernment ministries? Why do you post here if all is lost?”

To which I say;
Why did Paul bother to write about it? Why is it in the Bible at all ?

Read 2 Thess 2:7-12 it is black and white and very simply put. Of course that seems to be an impediment to most of you here. The Word is written to the church.

Henry, I agree that without God’s grace it’s all moot.

But, according to you, Paul was not in the Age of Apostacy. We are now in that age (according to you). If this is true and you can’t do anything to stop us from falling off the cliff, why post here?

I don’t have time to read all of these right now, but I’d like to respond to a few:
Nathan said, “what always gets me is that you constantly overlook what we write here and move on to another issue” I originally thought that this site was going to be a place where issues are discussed. Unless someone with a different viewpoint comes in the majority of the discussion seems to be cutting down people. I get tired of it. The times when I might even agree or slightly agree with the accusations I don’t feel like adding to them because I feel it would encourage even more criticism. I’ve said several times, the underlying issues are much more important than the people.

As for not answering questions, I’ve answered lots with much thought and time put into my answers. I believe it was you Nathan who was first annoyed with me about asking you too many questions – when the whole discussion started on Mosaic.

Also, regarding the fact that this is a Lutheran church which does some things that I don’t agree with doesn’t change the fact that the videos are mockery of what many people consider sacred.

As for this question,”If someone made a goofy video at Mars Hill church, would you be offended and say it’s sacrilegious,”

1)I was offended by the “worship” video from Saddleback. Is that good enough?

2) You call this video “goofy.” I call it “irreverent” and “sacrilegious.”

As for the comments about the church not being the Temple, the setting of the church was essential to the message of this video – without the church setting the message of the video would have been harder to get across. But this kind of video shouldn’t have been made anywhere, even at Wal-mart, or in a Porn Shop, by anyone who claims to be a Christian, much less who claims to be training for Christian ministry.

Oh Chris P,

One more thing LOL! I write LOL! not out of nervousness but I am one who has great joy in my heart… and I enjoy life and i saw what was being said by you rather lacking in much substance and sadly funny.

Nope no nervousness here… in fact due to my diabetes i rarely get nervous… much alone “feel” other things… yet God is in my heart and i do know and sense His Spirit even over all the neuropathy and lack of accessing emotions…

Shoot, Chris P, I used to hang a biker bars… you know those really scary ones and stand toe to toe with the meany biker dudes… and after that we slapped each other on the back and they bought me free drinks… so not much scares me… even less now with Christ as my Life… (I do not settle for Lord… I go for Life! LOL!)

I was a bit bored with our exchange above, but i will still talk to you and even still laugh at your classick missing the point…

Be Blessed Chris,
iggy

Amy-

99 percent of the people who were offended by this video would never darken the door of a Lutheran Church. I can kind of understand if this was done at a Protestant Fundamentalist church, with it’s pews, KJVs and bad green carpets. But it’s a church that Ken and Ingrid consider apostate already. What do you expect from it’s future leaders?

Again,
Amy, are you Lutheran? If I gave a quote here from Luther you would be shocked!

Here it is… I have edited it for family… but here it is…

He was known to have yelled at the evil one thus:

“I have sh*t in my pants, and you can hang them around your neck and wipe your mouth with it.” ~ Martin Luther…

Hope that is not going to get me banned… as I am quoting the Lutheran of Lutherans…

Does that offend you Amy?

How about what Luther thought of Jews…

“Beware then the Jews and know that the Jewish school is nothing other than a nest of the devil … And when you hear a Jew teaching, then realize that you are hearing a venomous basilisk that can poison and kill people with the sight of his face.” ~ Martin Luther

Luther also advised that if a child be possessed by the devil to throw him into a river.

What I am getting at is if you need so badly to be offended by something some immature Lutherans have done… maybe you might enjoy being offended greater by Martin Luther himself…

i am not saying these things to bash Lutherans… in fact i appreciate Luther’ candor and honesty in his words even if they offend me or I disagree…
Blessings,
iggy

Amy,

If one studies Martin Luther and reads a few of his quotes… like his quote to Satan, ” I have sh*t in my pants, do you want to wear them around you neck and wipe your face with them?”

That is a quote from the Great reformer Himself… a mere man who was base and crude…

In fact he referred to himself as the Papal ass, that “when I go hee-haw, hee- haw, they take it as a doctrinal statement.”

So, if you desire to look to be offended you will be… did these kids “sin”… I don’t know I have not seen the video, yet, again… not being a Lutheran, I really think instead of spreading the stink… we should let them deal with the disciplinary part concerning their own students.

To me unless someone is truly hurting others… as in how some lie and misrepresent others then complain about how those people do not follow scripture seems more evil than a few kids doing something stupid… It also seems that again as usual no matter what is said, it will not be enough to appease Ken and Ingrid…

Blessings,
iggy