Thou Shalt NOT Laugh…
Or so implies Ingrid. Apparently, not only are there types of music that cannot honor God, but neither can Christian comedians. With the state of things as they are, how dare Christians ever find time to laugh!
The source of Ingrid’s outrage? This article in Christianity Today about Christian comedians, which she quotes – I’m guessing to be as condemnation, though it fails to condemn…
Still, many Christian comedians use comedy as a vehicle to reach the unchurched. Anita Renfroe says her shows are almost always designed as “bridge events.†“People can tell their friends, ‘We’re going to have this night of comedy at our church; we’re having three comedians come in, and it’s gonna be off the hook!’ And a friend who would never accompany you to a Bible study will come to a comedy night. It’s incredibly powerful because everybody loves to laugh. It’s universal.â€
Now, were this the sum total of what a church was offering, I would definitely question their service – both in orthodoxy and orthopraxy. However, as a small part of outreach to the local community – and a way to open up conversations on deeper topics – I don’t see the need for all the bluster and fury.
There is a time for everything,
      and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die,
      a time to plant and a time to uproot, a time to kill and a time to heal,
      a time to tear down and a time to build, a time to weep and a time to laugh,
      a time to mourn and a time to dance, a time to scatter stones and a time to gather them,
      a time to embrace and a time to refrain, a time to search and a time to give up,
      a time to keep and a time to throw away, a time to tear and a time to mend,
      a time to be silent and a time to speak, a time to love and a time to hate,
      a time for war and a time for peace.
There is a time for everything, and as long as everything that should be given its time IS given its time, such externals-focused nitpickyness does nothing for the body of Christ.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
29 Comments(+Add)
One of the commenters likens this practice (using comedians as an outlet for sharing the gospel) to bait and switch and being deceitful. But if they didn’t share the gospel, then they would have a problem with that too!
For all the blustering about the importance of truth, it seems that many people forget that the truth sets us free.
(by the way, I’ve been lurking here for quite a while, but thought I’d jump in every so often. I love to laugh and have fun, so I thought this would be a good place and time)
If you really loved the church, you would be too busy weeping for the degenerate, lost, blind souls of the liberal, ecumenical church of deceit who desire to lead the historic, orthodox Christian faith of the $evangelical$ church back to the apostate, Roman heresy of conemptlative spirituality via the distorted venom of spiritual disciplines spouted by man-loving Erwin McManus, spiritual guru Brian McLaren and virgin-birth denying Rob Bell, to laugh at anything.
I didn’t want to say this, but Silva uses the term “manlove” so much it’s no wonder he likes having “phallic” Christmas trees in his home.
Ok, that might get me banned off this site.
Todd that was so ……not funny.
I think the point is, as one of the commenters said, the bait and switch techniques used by these minstries to trick you into the Kingdom. Why if I take someone to Starbucks once a week they’ll be Christ follower before they know it. In fact they won’t even know it’s Jesus that we are talking about.
I am waiting for the day that one of these micro-brewery ministries begins by getting their “pre-christian” friends drunk, and then give them the pitch.
Bait and switch? I think people can figure out that if they’re going to a church, they’re going to hear about Jesus. It goes without saying.
Chris P.
Wow I was drunk when I heard the “pitch” (what a sad term for sharing the gospel) and I received Jesus… i was immeditaley sober right after I prayed…
Laughter is a gift… Joy sustains us through sorrow and tribulation…
Blessings,
iggy
I do not see much value in comedy when the Titanic is sinking, and there seems to be more of a time to laugh and little time to weep. And I would imagine that the night that draws several hundred people to hear jokes would far exceed the number that would come for a prayer meeting invitation. A joke from a preacher, yes, but a whole night in God’s gathering place to hear many jokes reflects the culture not the Spirit.
Sorry, I love to laugh but I do not see Paul having a comedian come with him to Rome to lighten up the crowd.
Ladies and Gentlemen we welcome the Apsotle Paul tonight for the lighter side:
“A funny thing happened to me on my way to Damascus…”
“Hey, I’ve come to Rome for a mission but I don’t want to lose my head over it!”
“I’ve brought Timithy with me tonight and for one dollar all you Jews can check his circumcision.”
“For One Hundred sheckels I’ll autograph a copy of my letter to the Romans. It will make a great Christmas gift”.
“I have three different kinds of T-shirts in the back. They say “I’m of Paul” or “I’m of Peter” or “I was baptized in the Jordan”.
Humor, very limited in the plan of God. Incongruous. And as you see, I like to laugh.
Rick,
I personally see that of all people Paul had a great humor about him…
there are passages that he, in a single line, wipes out the argument of that days philosophies… with a rhetorical question that seems to turn their argument into a absurdity.
In fact i often wonder if Jesus as He answered questions with a question… had a smile on His face…
I am not saying we need to live in perpetual happiness… but the Joy of the Lord should flow from us as we go about in all things… this Joy overcomes all things as even in persecution one can count that very persecution itself a Joy…
BTW those lines are very funny… and I thing that Paul bringing Timothy along as a gentile who was not circumcised showed the humor and boldness of Paul… as Paul was not only saying this is what I said… but here is the proof… here’s Tim… the uncircumcised gentile who has been filled with the Holy Spirit… now whose laughing!
The biggest struggle i have with this forum… comments and such is that one cannot see the person who is writing… are they angry, sad, happy… so this is a very limited forum to be able to judge anything…
But I really did enjoy a good laugh over your “A funny thing happened to me on my way to Damascus…†bit… LOL!
Blessings,
iggy
iggy said: I was drunk when I heard the “pitch†(what a sad term for sharing the gospel) and I received Jesus
Well, then you obviously aren’t really saved. Unless you were sitting in a pew wearing a 3-piece suit. But if you were drunk then, it’s still questionable.
Oh wait, what am I saying? I don’t think you’re reformed, so you aren’t saved, anyway.
Brendt,
At least that is what they tell me…
Yet it seems i have a better grasp at reformed theology than many who claim it!
Yep, maybe one day Luther and i will be sitting at a table in heaven… drinking Heavenly Ale and laughing his crude jokes…
Then maybe not… ; )
Blessings,
iggy
Actually Chris P has a very valid point about “bait and switch”.
In my experience, the types of churches that would frown on such things as a comedy night at the church are full of people who live like normal people (or at least what the unsaved perceive as normal) six days a week, and then are pharisaical jerks on Sunday.
So how could the critics understand that the people at the comedy night on Saturday are the same people, acting the same way on Sunday?
“But, you were so nice last night…..” That is a bait and switch. Only drawback is that it’s non-existent.
Yep… I have been around those people… and I have seen more in fundamentalist style than in Seeker/Purpose driven… yet, that has been my experience… and of course because i am not “saved”….
Blessings,
iggy
2 Timothy 2:10
I was pretty upset about a Christian comedian who came to my university. He didn’t advertise that the was Christian at all, and his jokes didn’t really precipitate the message that he jumped on us in the last 15 minutes of his show. Both my non-Christian friends and I were pretty annoyed that he did that because we totally felt that we were being “baited and switched.” I’m not really down with preaching tactics like that. I think that the Gospel and the Bible can be discussed/preached anywhere, from churches to pubs, but I don’t think that it should be hidden or dressed as anything but itself.
Brendt,
I was laughing at your comment again, and there is more to the “I was drunk” story….
My “sinners prayer” was; “If you can keep me sober tonight I will see what I can do for you..”
Now isn’t that a howl!?!
Yet, as I said, I was drunk then felt a “weight” lifted from my shoulders and was sober… so you tell me… I think that God saw my heart and the words really weren’t important… in fact I was held to those words until I finally found Grace… and in that I realized…
We can’t do anything for God… He will do as He pleases in and through us… but as far as “helping” God… I usually just got/get in the way. LOL!
Blessings,
iggy
Iggy,
The “problem” is that this type of stuff is NOT the church’s commission. There is nothing wrong with laughter per se, but comic night is not a part of what the Church’s commission is and there are very strong biblical-based arguments for not wasting church resources (both time and money) on such endeavours which again, are not a part of the Church’s walking orders.
I think Ingrid is correct when she laments the silliness and childishness (not child-likeness) of many of the current crop of pastors and church staff (ref. goofy pictures of staff on church websites). Life is serious business and pastors generally admit to a “higher” calling. Their office carries responsibilities, they are examples and they do have greater responsibilities, they are leaders and shepherds. The same book of Ecclesiastes you quoted in other places says:
2:1-2 I said to myself, “Come now, I will test you with pleasure. So enjoy yourself.” And behold, it too was futility. I said of laughter, “It is madness,” and of pleasure, “What does it accomplish?”
As you know, life is a messy thing and when my son was going through a particularly harrowing ordeal during his teen years I for one, certainly did not want to go to a cutsie buffoon for help and counsel.
On the other hand a good sense of humor and a cheerful personality are a boon to all and certainly have a place in the overall picture. My motto is balance in all things. But in the end, life is not a joke, nor is the office of pastor. It’s hard and full of tributation and I just think that people who say they having a spiritual calling to minister to people should take it seriously. But its really not up to my preferences, but what God requires:
1 Tim: 2 – An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, TEMPERATE, PRUDENT, RESPECTIBLE, hospitable, able to teach,
Titus 2: 2, 6-7 – Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance. . . Likewise urge the young men to be SENSIBLE, in all things show yourself to be an example of good deeds, with purity in doctrine, DIGNIFIED . . .
A clown or buffoon is none of these. On the other hand kindness, sympathy and gentleness are encouraged from these same leaders. Pastors and staff who are just trying to be “Hip” for “hip’s sake” are missing the bigger picture in my opinion and in their understanding of what Scripture dictates and I think it is a sad commentary on today’s crop of “leaders”.
Houston,
I don’t even see how the issue here has anything to do with pastors. The thing Ingrid is complaining about was a church having a comedy night with a Christian comedian. This type of event isn’t something I would want to do, but I don’t think that make it a sin. Life is serious, as you say, but I believe if anything, Christians should laugh and enjoy more than anyone.
Also, the verses you quote do not rule out a minister or leader having a sense of humor. Some of the most spiritually mature people I know are also the funniest. I think it’s because they just exude a joy that comes from God. I think Jesus was definitely joy filled when he spoke. Some of the things he said in the Gospels would have definitely been considered humorous to his audience.
This passage for instance in Matthew 23:
“Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.
I can just picture Jesus saying this in an almost mocking tone – I’m sure it got some laughs, especially the “they make their phylacteries wide” part.
HJ,
A number of observations:
1) The basic message of Ecclesiastes is that without God, everything is meaningless, and that it is God which brings meaning to all things – including all of the things listed (laughter, included).
2) The church’s “walking orders” are to be salt and light:
The church, as a community, knows what is best needed in the community around them. Often, the image of what a “Christian” looks like is either a humorless, passionless drone or a 6&1 hypocrite (different on Sunday than the other 6 days).
Events like “Thou Shalt Laugh” are events that both provide good, clean humor within the community of believers, while also serving (as noted) as a way of dispelling false stereotypes of what Christians ‘look like’ – ways that God can use to break down defenses of individuals who have a false impression of (most) Chrisians.
3) Ingrid’s nitpicking on photos of church staff is just that – nitpicking. Interestingly, to your point, the one staff member on the page she linked to without a goofy photo is the lead pastor…
These folks (at a college ministry) know their local community (primarily students), and how best to relate to them. My guess is that these staff members aren’t doing a ‘bait and switch’ by trying to ‘be hip’. They probably are hip, and don’t take themselves more seriously than they ought. As real, authentic people who love and follow Christ, and his example, it is the reflection of Him in their authentic walk with Him that attracts others (not a photo on a website…)
Houston John,
I am not sure why you are addressing me directly… you see i am against the “bait and switch” idea…
Though as i read your comments I could not help but think…
That you think that to laugh is to be undignified… in fact I see that as quite the opposite… that laughter out of joy… can be healing and very dignified.
I think the real issue is that “some” people do not want to allow their humanity to come through as if that is evil… which is totally unbiblical…
We have been given emotions… and though we are not to be driven by them, we should in no way totally deny them also.
In that your scripture references has nothing to do with whether one can “laugh” at a Christian comedian. I see that most of those scriptures are way out of context…
Now, I have been a Pastor… and I know the hard times and tribulations… as I am also in the ministry though not in the official title at this moment still…
Yet, I see most “tribulation” as self imposed, and very unhealthy… Jesus stated “Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
So to use the scripture in the context you are, seems to me to run against Jesus saying that we are to take His yoke… and not struggle in our own.
The main issue in the church today is that too many are not walking in the Power of the Holy Spirit and the finished works of Christ… they are convinced the fruit they bear is their own… it is not… it is Gods…
A bad tree cannot bear good fruit… and you and I are bad trees that can only bear bad fruit… but God alone is “good” as Jesus stated, and He is the only One that bears good fruit… Jesus is the Good Tree…
We bear the good fruit of God… we do not do works to get fruit, God does His works in and through us… in that we rest.
So, again as I read you comments I see that you and Ingrid and Ken and many others are focused on bearing their own fruit and calling it Gods… in that it is still bad if it is out of ones own works…
The Just shall live by His faith… we are saved by Grace through faith… this means we must come to the end of ourselves and realize we cannot do anything to please God and that Jesus has already pleased God and we can only trust in Christ and dwell in Him for our salvation…
So, I laugh in shear joy over my salvation and rejoice when Christ is preached. I do have great sorrow in my heart for those who preach legalistic rules and laws and keep others in spiritual bondage of trying to bear their own fruit and in that harm the Body of Christ by joining in the Accuser of the Brethren accusations… I guess I wonder why a true “Spirit filled” Christian would want to help Satan in His accusations… unless the Truth in not in them and the fruit of that is hating their own brothers and sisters in Christ. Personally I see that as a sad commentary on today’s self promoted so called “leaders”.
Blessings,
iggy
Hi Chris L,
I find in your comments that you are expressing your preferences vs following the biblical mandate. I tried to show from Biblical examples that the overseer must be among other things: temperate, prudent, respectible, dignified, sensible, etc.”. These are the Biblical mandates for the office of overseer. In whatever way a pastor is to relate to a particular consistuency his actions must be temerate and dignified. “Clown, silly, buffoon, etc.” and “dignified” don’t compute in my understanding of these concepts.
I would also take exception to your comment “The church, as a community, knows what is best needed in the community around them.” The outworking of this concept to its logical conclusion is “anything goes” if the motive is to reach others for Christ. I would disagree with this understanding of “being all things to all people”. God knows what is needed in each community and He has procribed that the shepherds of his flock be dignified in their actions. Again, dressing as a clown and riding in on an elephant doesn’t meet that requirement in my understanding of the concept here.
You seem to want to reconceptulize and reimage the office of pastor into your preferences instead of following the clear biblical model. I am not against humor per se. Everyone appreciates a cheerful, joyful sermon and humor is certainly appropriate in many circumstances. But one can inject humor and joy into a situation without being a literal clown or buffoon.
being “dignified” does not mean dressing up in a cheap three piece suit, singing hymns and giving a three point expository sermon. If you are suggesting that pastors are to remain dignified by never having a sense of humor and enjoying life with his congregation via humor, that’s insane.
Nathan,
Please read my last paragraph immediately above.
Nathan,
My pastor wears Hawaiian shirts and jeans when he preaches.
But my pastor is not a buffoon.
He injects loads of appropriate humor into his sermons.
But he is not a clown.
My pastor is a very joyous, encouraging person.
But my pastor is dignified and takes his role as shepherd very seriously.
P.S. We enjoy very contemporay music in our worship services.
HJ,
You wrote:
Where exactly did I insert my “preference” above scripture? You have inserted your own definition of “temperate” and “dignified”. If we examine multiple translations of the same scripture, including Young’s literal translation: blameless, of one wife a husband, vigilant, sober, decent, a friend of strangers, apt to teach,
(among others) – temperate, also translated ’sober’ and ’sensible’ and ’self-controlled’ implies literal sobriety and thought processes which do not parallel those of a drunk person. Respectable – is an implication of purity. Dignified, which is also translated ‘decent’, is a combination of moral action and community perception.
If you note the article written and the discussion to this point, we are not talking about clowns and elephants, so please don’t change the subject. (Also, if you also note the webpage Ingrid had a snit-fit about, the pastor did not have a ‘humorous’ photo, so in that case, this point is moot).
And now you’ve created a straw-man argument by extrapolating beyond reasonableness. It is not an ‘anything goes’ approach, as there ARE bounds in scripture. None of the comedians in ‘Thou Shalt Laugh’ is a pastor, and – having seen several of them live – their humor is not ‘buffoonery’ or anything ‘undignified’.
Again, we’re not talking about clowns and elephants – we’ve never broached the subject here.
No, I just don’t want to ‘reconceptualize’ the office of pastor to fit YOUR narrowly-defined perception of what the ‘biblical model’ is. I read the exact same passage as you, and in the two instances discussed (the ‘Thou Shalt Laugh’ comedians and the college church web page), the people involved were not in violation of these (or other) scriptures.
We’re not talking about clowns here…
HJ,
As a youth Pastor I was a clown for church once… as far as dignity I kept it somehow… it was great fun and even the adults loved it.
I think we must remember just as your pastor wearing a Hawaiian shirt in the deep south to church may be deemed inappropriate. Just as most Hawaiians would deem someone in a business suit as suspicious.
I have no problem with animals as part of a sermon if it makes it’s point, especially in America since most think hamburger only comes from Walmart…
If somehow we can connect and understand… and in that we also have a little fun I have no issue…
If there is no connection of the people who attend, then I have a great problem as that is what our assembling is most about… to gather TOGETHER to worship TOGETHER to love one another… that is us being the Church…
We act like the building is the only place God dwells and we forget that it is in us He now dwells… and in Him we have our being.
Blessings,
iggy
Chris L,
I agree I have seen many pastors that are clowns and buffoons with any clown makeup… who have no understanding of their calling and have not place in teaching others…
Blessings,
iggy
Chris L,
You are correct in that I had expanded the scope of the discussion to Ingrid’s posting on similar issues. That particular post of Ingrid’s was in the context of the overall downgrading of the office of the pastor. As far as I can determine she is demonstrating a depressing trend in a series of related posts. Taken in isolation I can see how they can be seen as “nit-picking”. Again, in Ingrid’s defense I think she is trying to point out a trend here. So, yes, I was not specifically dealing with “Thou Shalt Laugh” but the larger issue.
I will also concede that the definition of “dignified” is, on one level, contextual to the community in question, but even then we have to be careful that we try our best to determine the biblical definition of the standard and not the definition as given by a particular culture.
HJ,
I believe that ‘dignified’ has both a moral and a culturally contextual component to it. The moral part takes scriptural instruction (such as appearance of impropriety) into account, whereas the culturally contextual (as alluded to by iggy) takes the local church’s social environment into account.
I will agree that clown-led worship – from the appearances in the reports – would not fit my own community’s definition of ‘dignified’. On the other hand, I think that animals used as illustration don’t necessarily cross this line –
For instance, last year, we had a 5-part series on Daniel. On the first day, the pastor gave a quick overview of where we were going in the series and mentioned off-handedly (and jokingly) that if he had a lion, he would want to bring it in for the lesson on Daniel in the Lion’s den, to give folks a better appreciation for what Daniel saw, close-up. One of the members of the church worked for an exotic animal rescue organization, which had a full-grown male lion in search of a permanent home (in a zoo, of course). She talked to the minister, and it was brought in three weeks later as part of the illustration. [And I can tell you that, standing 3 feet from it and seeing the raw power in it, I had a much better appreciation for Daniel, David and Sampson than I had previously.]
Instructional designers (a number of which I work with professionally) will tell you that a physical/interactive illustration or a hands-on demonstration are the most effective means og teaching adults. I would agree that just bringing in animals (or other spectacles) for their own sake is silly, but if they are used in line with scriptural permission/prohibition in an effective manner, they can be and are useful.
Chris L,
I can agree with that. I see no problem with using creative illustrations per se. Jesus proclaimed himself as the Light of the World with the backdrop of of the huge menorah during the Festival of Lights at the temple, and the used the temple activities as a backdrop for proclaiming Himself the Living Water at another jewish high feast (and with the woman at the well). Plus, Old Testament prophets used many visual props to make a point. So again I agree with you on this point.
I think that we have paradigm of what a Sunday morning gathering should look like. The church I work for gets harpooned by mainline Christians all the time that say “this shouldn’t happen in the church”. We cut out music completely for four week and replaced it with other artistic expressions of worship. You would have thought we threw the cross away with people’s reactions!
Most don’t have scriptural backing for their reasoning. What they are saying that that we have crossed the established Christian cultural values of what church should be. The most important thing is that the message is communicated without crossing moral boundaries, and done in such a way that the cultural majority understands it (which looks very different from the Christian culture). I would be against a circus for the sake if having a circus. However, if it was used to communicate the message somehow, I would be all for it.