Excerpt From Warren’s Response to Murdoch Flap
Here’s some excerpts from Rick Warren’s blog response to the flap over Rupert Murdoch, fueled by WND, CR?N, Slice 2.0, etc., etc. [Thanks to Matt for the link to a screencap of the article.]
Neither the original blogger nor Farah bothered to contact the church to ask if Murdoch was a member. The original writer jumped to that conclusion because he read somewhere that Warren said he was “Rupert Murdoch’s pastor”.
So much for “Christian” (being like Christ, which would imply at least some adherence to Biblical procedure on verifying sin before publicly addressing it, based on Deuteronomy and Matthew 18) and “Research” (the lack of any resemblence to which has led us to add in the “?” into CR?N).
Rick Warren is Rupert Murdoch’s pastor in the sense that over the years they have had “numerous spiritual conversations and times of prayer,” [Saddleback Church's Chief of Staff David] Chrzan said. He pointed out that many people who aren’t members of the church refer to Warren as “their pastor” because he is the only clergyman they know.
[...]
Since Murdoch is not a member of the church, “any attempt to exercise biblical authority he doesn’t have would be presumptious and inappropriate,” he said.
Welcome to the watchdawggie-blogosphere, Mr. Warren – that’s what they’re best at – exercising authority they don’t have…
Farah did correctly report that Warren has an “exemplary record in speaking out on pornography at its devastating effects,” Chrzan added, but he has found that public confrontation isn’t remotely as effective as personal relationship.
So much for “Purpose-Driven Porn”. I guess it takes a REAL “Pastor” to understand how to deal with folks and tend the flock, not just someone with a boat-load of titles (including “Pastor”, “Editor” and “President”) and no fruit to show for it…
“Your story implies that Dr. Warren’s business ties with Mr. Murdoch have limited his spiritual influence, but nothing could be farther from the truth,” Chrzan said. “Dr. Warren has found that behind the scenes persuasion is always more effective than “in-your-face” public rebuke. God has honored Dr. Warren’s faithfulness to speak truth into the lives of influential individuals He brings into his path, but your story does not even recognize that possibility.”
Yes, but this story wasn’t really even related to Murdoch – it was another chance for watchdawggies to pile on Rick Warren – one of their sports of choice. The volume and rhetoric within the articles at CR?N, Slice 2.0 and WND made it clear that there was no actual desire for reconciliation toward Murdoch or repentence from Warren (for imagined crimes) – it was 100% about bashing Dr. Warren. NOTHING he could have said or done would have slaked the thirst of these rabid watchdawggies.
There is a small network of bloggers who specialize in concocting outrageous accusations against well-known Christian leaders in an effort to attract readers to their websites. Such “researchers” – and the “journalists” who promote them – have no incentive to verify their assertions because facts are incompatible with the fictions which are their stock and trade.
Amen.
It is regrettable that people who present themselves as Christians would show so little regard for the truth and focus so much time and energy on fomenting strife.
God’s kingdom is not well served by contrived controversy. The world needs to see the power of His love and grace at work in our lives, not “hostility, quarreling, jealousy, outbursts of anger, selfish ambition, divisions, [and] the feeling that everyone is wrong except for those in your own little group. (Galatians 5:20 NLT)
Agreed. There is a wideness in God’s mercy, and it would be nice if we tried to mirror that…
49 Comments(+Add)
It looks like a couple of people owe Rick Warren a public apology!!!! LOL!
Yet, I suspect that even proven wrong they will justify it somehow… or just slick away without a word…
Blessings,
iggy
James 4:6-7
How dare you try to confuse the watchdawgies with facts! Obviously, you lack the discernment to see past the facts, and into the VPDC (Vast Purpose Driven Conspiracy).
I won’t hold my breath waiting for an apology from them.
They will probably whine and complain about the response article being taken down (which, if sources are correct, was a decision to not feed the dawgs, ’cause they’ll only want more and come back wanting it worse next time…)
Iggy,
I don’t necessarily disagree with your assertion that Slice and CRN can see no “right” in anything that Warren says or does, but these are not “fictions”. One would have to be truly naive to not see the easily traceable business links between Murdock, Warren, Zondervon, Fox News, etc. The simple fact is Mr. Warren got caught in his fleshly game of name dropping and as other posters have well said, Mr. Warren seems to want all the fame, but none of the responsibility. It is also undeniable that Warren has obtained the services of a major world player Public Relations Firm and has professional “spin doctors” on staff or hire. Let’s think about that for a moment: a pastor who needs a PR firm. Hmmmmmmm. Is it also such a stretch to think that one of the world’s largest multi-billion publishing corporation is not capable of and indeed, very likely, to assert “pressure” on a poor little publishing house like “Christian Today” in order to remove unfavorable material? Yeah, it was just a coincidence the article was up and then down in the same day. Warren has already publicaly stated he has no problem in being a co-belligerant with anyone with whom he agrees on a certain principal (e.g., AIDS) no matter what their “other” stances. This is hardly Biblical. Finally, as a third party, I can see little difference in your total distain for Ingrid et. al. and their distain for Warren et. al. CRN-Info seems to be spending as much attention to their watchdog efferts as Slice and CRN is in theirs. Just say’n.
From:
http://www.apprising.org/archives/2007/05/rick_warren_a_p.html
Joseph Farah can speak for himself, though I have a pretty good idea we will find out that he did attempt to contact Rick Warren. However, Chrzan is dead wrong when he says that Rosebrough did not bother “to contact the church.†As you will see [in Part Two] Rosebrough did personally contact Saddleback Church. He even published that fact in his piece “Purpose driven Pornography: Details Behind the Buzz†at A Little Leaven.com, and in anticipation of this kind of attempt at character assassination by Saddleback Rosebrough also immediately called me as a second witness after he spoke with Saddleback.
HJ:
In the world of news, there are two kinds of news:
1) Bad news (which sells)
2) Good news/refutation of bad news (which does not)
CR?N is in the “bad news” business – a gossip tabliod seeking to exploit Christian failures (real and imagined)
CRN.Info is in the “good/refutation news” business – defending those who have been mugged on the information superhighway by the likes of AM, Slice and CR?N.
That’s the key difference
Perhaps Warren and others who find it necessary to use a PR firm only rely on their services so they don’t have to answer every benign critique that some pastor across the county has of their ministry, and can instead focus on their calling to see the lost saved.
As pastors, aren’t we called to tend to our own flocks? If they aren’t against us, then they’re for us, right?
Houston John,
Perhaps a bit of time reading this blog would lead you to see that when CRN/Slice post a good article, CRN.Info is quick to notice and compliment them. This is far from the “they can do no right” attitude of CRN/Slice toward Warren.
The difference is staggering, and if you can’t notice that, you either haven’t been at the blog very long, or you’ve bought into the nonsense that is CRN/Slice “discernment”.
And this blog doesn’t take them to task for their articles on JWs or Mormons. This site is about protecting the Church.
Kyle,
“Public Relations” and “Church” don’t belong in the same sentence. A true biblical ministry should care less about what anyone other than the Lord thinks about them. Public Relations is only the concern of BUSINESSES who have a reputation (i.e. their bottom line $$$) to protect. Purpose Driven is a franchise in EVERY sense of the word.
““Public Relations†and “Church†don’t belong in the same sentence. A true biblical ministry should care less about what anyone other than the Lord thinks about them.”
I actually kind of agree with this statement to some extent. The ironic thing is that Warren was criticized for not answering their questions before, and now they criticize him for answering them. It’s just shows that with most critics, their is nothing that be done to appease them.
Chris L:
“CR?N is in the “bad news†business – a gossip tabliod seeking to exploit Christian failures (real and imagined)
CRN.Info is in the “good/refutation news†business – defending those who have been mugged on the information superhighway by the likes of AM, Slice and CR?N.”
LOL. Discernment ministries are “negative” by definition. I cut my teeth on “Deception in the Church” and “Crossword” (now defunct) which let me to Slice 1.0 way back when Do I always agree with their approach, no but I have found them extremely helpful. But, hey, I actually like this site. (I’ve been lurking for a year probably). I jump in these things periodically as I tend to get caught up and find myself spending waaaaaay too much time on them.
And yes I do honest to God think that Rick Warren and his ilk are the pre-cursor to the anti-christ. Literally. A one world government and a one world religion don’t just appear over night. But the PD church is too busy with clowns, circuses and comedy nights (also literally) and urinals for Jesus to even begin to worry about such fringe concerns.
HJ,
I think that he work of the Kingdom is more important that giving someone with bad information and false accusations… and unbiblical means and ways…
If as Ken state Rosebrough did “try: to contact Saddleback… I say big deal… was there even a conversation?
Ken’s link to his own “miss”ive seems to always have that “error” of authority about it so I hold it suspect. In that I could not really tell by the quote that Ken gave if Warren was laughing as it was a bit funny as I quote from Ken’s site:
“And I said, ‘That’s interesting. I’m Rupert’s pastor! Rupert published my book!’†Then he tilted back his head and gave one of those big Rick Warren laughs. ”
To end something with a laugh may not mean that Rick is saying it as “fact”… IN FACT, I doubt that Rick meant it that way from the point that one is not another’s ‘pastor’ if they publish their book…
What only see is an exchange and a bit of humor being displayed… and I see it a stretch to say this is a “confirmation beyond a doubt” that “proves” that Rick is indeed Murdoch’s pastor.
Now the one thing that Ken and all are missing is the confidentiality that if Rick is Murdoch’s pastor… they are stepping way over their bounds… in fact they are sinning as they are publishing sins as public which may be being worked on in a counselling session. In that they could be doing harm to the situation as Murdoch may be turned off from Christians who attack him…
And here is the other point… it is Murdoch’s “sin: they are exposing… in that did anyone approach Rupert Murdoch and address this privately with him? I can guarantee this was just thought as a great “hit” piece against Rich Warren without any regard to someone who may be young in the faith… in that I see that Ingrid and Ken and Rosebrough and who ever else who cared less for a “brother” in Christ then their own personal agenda to attack Rick Warren…
Again, these people not only need to apologize to Rick Warren… but to Rupert Murdoch also.
Blessings,
iggy
I think that he work of the Kingdom is more important that giving someone with bad information and false accusations… and unbiblical means and ways…
“giving” should be “dealing”.
sorry.
iggy
Nathan,
I stand corrected. No, really, I do.
Houston John,
Do you think that Rick Warren should “care less” of what Slice/CRN/WND thinks about him and therefore ignore any of their requests for him to respond to countless criticisms?
Should Rick Warren simply ignore all criticism?
Is the point of Slice/CRN/WND printing these articles to notify us of his deeds or an appeal for him to act?
Houston John,
I would propose that churches do have a reputation to protect. Paul often praised churches for their reputation in the community and among the brothers. Anyone that would seek to defame that, and seek to harm the potential of ministry, would offer an answer. If the world knows us by our love for each other, then certainly we should do our best to maintain that regard with them.
Ken and the gang kept calling for a public response to the issue. If Warren never bothered answering, then it would’ve been called out as a sign of guilt (cf. most of the missives for this approach). Now that he does respond, he’s demonized for that. If you were the one being unfairly maligned, what would you do?
Public relations is nothing more than a concentrated effort to communicate the values of your organization to a variety of audiences. Every church is engaged in PR, most just do it poorly, as highlighted by your sentiment that we shouldn’t care what people think about us. If we’re running our church in a way that is offensive to the very people we’re trying to reach, we’re doing something wrong. The message is “offensive” enough, our methods don’t need to be.
Iggy,
Let’s face it, a web site takes a lot of time so I find it somewhat ironic that you fault Slicle and CRN for taking so much time away from your perception of what a real ministry is. This watchdog of the watchdog site has to ALSO take up ALOT of someone’s time that could be spent ministering elsewhere. But hey I assume you have a calling to do it just as I assume do Ingrid and Ken. I can also certainly see how they are perceived to be shrill from time to time. I think you guys have a great sense of humor and enjoy coming here. You also make some very good points (on occasion
) But still, to me, it’s the pot calling the kettle black on the “time required” thing.
HJ,
This site takes very little of my time (at least) to manage, because I primarily hit it during my lunch hour and afternoon break, and in the evening before turning in. Knowing the technology, speed reading, and typing at a high WPM rate translate to little time required…
Darren,
The key is: “should Rick Warren ignore . . .” My reponse: not necessarily, but to HIRE a public relations firm is the transgression in my understanding. PD is a multi-million $$$ franchise no matter how it claims to be a “ministry”.
“Is the point of Slice/CRN/WND printing these articles to notify us of his deeds or an appeal for him to act?”
I don’t know. Both? Probably more of “notify us of his deed” to protect the sheep from the wolves.
Iggy,
Iggy Said: “Now the one thing that Ken and all are missing is the confidentiality that if Rick is Murdoch’s pastor… they are stepping way over their bounds… in fact they are sinning as they are publishing sins as public which may be being worked on in a counselling session. In that they could be doing harm to the situation as Murdoch may be turned off from Christians who attack him…”
Pleezzzzee. Cable and printed pornography publication is hardly a private sin.
“I think you guys have a great sense of humor”
What’s funny about the American Christian Church coming under the judgment of God? Nero fiddled…and now we laugh…
“Nero fiddled…and now we laugh…”
For one who is so opposed to laughter, you sure do insert a lot of
in your comments.
HJ,
I may seem to spend a lot of time on this, yet I really don’t. I have already put in a 8 hour day at work (full time job that keeps me on call 24/7) had a “nights” sleep and have written about three posts on my own personal ministry blog… as well as come here…
I do a lot of things online… I have an online radio station called iggyROCKS! and have been getting new artists and ministries to partner with me on the station… I have been in contact with about 3 different people for new shows… 2 of which I am producing myself….
The true irony is that I come here, and read the post or comment then read the links and can see without much effort the error in that “miss”ive… or article… really discernment is a gift… in that I follow the “hunch” and usually find the weak point in their break out story… that takes about 5 to 10 minutes a day… as far as comments… hey I love people and love to talk… so I do that anywhere i am… : )
Blessings,
iggy
Iggy,
Iggy said: “Again, these people not only need to apologize to Rick Warren… but to Rupert Murdoch also.”
Okaaaay. Mr. Murdoch I am sorry we issued a public rebuke regarding you heading up one of the largest pornographic distribution outlets in the known universe. I’m sorry to publically point out that you and your organization denegrate women, promote filth and sexual promiscuity and help cause the spiritual bankruptcy and fall of countless ministers and other Christians. I’m sorry for pointing out that this is not what Christians “do”. Is this what i understand they are to apologize for?
Rick Warren PUBLCIALLY promotes Murdock as someone churches can learn good business practices from. Now I ask, who owes and apology to whom?
HJ,
You do not know what God is doing in Murdoch’s heart… nor what is going on that may end the pornography… yet, the Bible teaches us to go privately… so i believe it. If I cannot, then I decide if that person is my responsibility or that I should trust that God is doing something already… If i can do something… I will approach the person if I can…
Yet the main point is that these people are focused on Rick Warren and saying he is sinning… while it is Rupert Murdoch that is involved in the industry that is promoting porno.
So, instead of attacking someone that may be doing something behind the scenes… they should be working at trying to get the porno removed from that industry.
It seems quite amiss to me to attack Rick Warren when he may be doing counseling to bring an end to porno.
It was only a hit piece that showcased these peoples hatred toward Rick Warren and not about “sin” at all…
It is using this worlds tools of hate to do the Kingdoms work which is a more grievous displacement of “truth”.
Blessings,
iggy
Iggy,
I will take your word that CRN.Info does not take up a disproportionate amont of time for you. So is it your position that Ingrid’s site does? I don’t see the difference. Ingrid seems plenty busy in other areas of ministry and the physical makeup of Slice doesn’t seem much more sophisticated (i,e., time consuming) than CRN.Info.
HJ,
Actually the point is not the “time” but that the focus is off…
Blessings,
iggy
Iggy,
Yes we do know what is going on in Mr. Murdock’s heart Jesus said that such things proceed out of the heart.
Iggy if my wife or a friend catches me on the internate viewing pornograhy that is an example of a private sin which should be handled privately as you say. But if I produce and publish pornography that is a public sin and the admonitions regarding private sins in no way apply. I’m sorry in one sense I can certainly feel Christian sympathy for a Christian brother who is caught in a sin and I should deal with him gently so as not to fall myself. But this is entirely different. This literally affects millions of people.
I meant to say “I am sorry for Mr. Murdock in one sense for a Christian brother who is in sin”
Iggy,
I guess I agree with you that they are not giving Mr. Warren ANY slack. I can see your point and your concern. I guess in the bottom analysis I see any good coming from Mr. Warren is “in spite of” not “because of” anything he does. How to handle this distain in a Christian manner is the rub isn’t it?
HJ,
Do we even know for sure Murdoch is a “brother in the Lord?” Or is he a seeker?
I can recall Billy Graham speaking to presidents that i wonder ever really had a relationship with Jesus… yet i supposed they would have considered Billy their pastor.
What i am getting at is I have seen no place that Murdoch states he is a believer in Christ… only that he gave to Saddleback… people give to non profits all the time… and Rick has done some really good things that I see people who are not even saved might also see as good things and desire to help…
I went to church for a long time before I got saved… I put my coins in the tray as it past me and felt good about myself. But that is a far cry from meeting Jesus and having my life totally and radically changed! LOL!
I agree that porno is harmful and is destructive to marriages and on and on.. no argument there as I have my own testimony and struggles… yet, to condemn a person when we do not even know their heart seems to bit far removed as to the teachings of Jesus. So, until I see that Murdoch has given himself to a life of salvation by Grace through faith, I think it wiser to not rock the boat and let God work.
Again, if it is porno that is the real issue with CRN and such, which is not what is coming across as all… I would be very supportive as long as they were doing it in a biblical manner.
Yet, again, I see this as only a hit peace against Rick and nothing to do with porno and its evils… it is just another of many “Rick Warren is in league with the devil” peaces that Ken and his friends love to write against another brother in the Lord.
Blessings,
iggy
Just to let you know HJ, I will be in and out all day as i have a ton of errands to run.
So I am not abandoning you if you desire to carry on this conversation. Also feel free to email me if you want, my email is on my blog.
Blessings,
iggy
And where is the concern for Murdoch’s soul and relationship to Christ? When I was first saved I was far from understanding all the nuances of separation and it was a process before God gave me some perspective on personal convictions that I should either embrace or reject. What will Murdoch think when he sees Warren, who he probably respects spiritually, being taken to task so publicly and mercilessly by many who do not have all the facts?
Rick Warren should address some of the doctrinal issues that many have raised but his reputation will always suffer whether he does right or wrong. If he has addressed the issue with Murdoch then he has done right. If he hasn’t, he should.
It must be difficult for someone like Murdoch to divest himself from all his questionable dealings after he is born again, but he is still the weaker brother and must be approached as such and we must be careful not to destroy him because we disagree with Rick Warren on other issues.
That is of course if we really care about him and are interceeding for him before the Father. I do know that it is impossible to interceed and accuse simultaneously.
The speck in your eyes has become a forest.
God gave some to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, PASTORS and teachers. These are ministry to the Body. Warren shoots off his mouth, not for the first time, and doesn’t want to be held accountable, by anyone, nice or not.
He said he was Murdoch’s pastor that’s a fact. He is a fool.
I do not give one whit about church membership. The “five-fold ministry is given to the entire body. If you claim to be a pastor, you pastor to the whole body. Warren portrays himself as the happening thing in the church, so he can pay the piper and shut up. He is arrogant to the core.
As for the integrity of CRN.(mis)Info LOL. The is simply a site for the we hate Ken and Ingrid fan club. You are purveyors of the very thing that you accuse them of.
BTW iggy no man is a seeker, or is Paul wrong, along with Isaiah and various others? God reveals Himself to whom He chooses.
Jesus told His DISCIPLES that they would be known as His, by their love one for another. IOW their brotherly love is the verification that they are disciples of Jesus. Therefore who are the real Disciples Of Christ, the restoration movement?
Not all who say Lord Lord will enter. Of course that isn’t you or Rick Warren.
We sing a song in our church with a line that says;
there the enemy makes mountains out of molehills. Well done crn.(non)info.
Ever notice how the reply of the post-modern juggernaut is always is taken from the scriptures according to Rodney King (of kings)
“why can’t we all get along?”
Let the church see the dividing line. It’s the best thing that can happen. He brought a sword (His Word) not peace.
Chris P,
Show me a verse that says a pastor is to be held responsible for another man’s sin…
I think you error in your knowledge of the Scripture.
Each man will give account for his own sin… either it be covered by the Blood of Jesus or be it a man stands with his own blood on his own hands.
So, again, these “positions” are actually “gifts” and in that they are to edify and build up the Body of Christ…
So, if Rick is or is not Murdoch’s pastor, how is Rick accountable for Murdoch’s sin? Prove to me by scripture this is so… Rick can counsel and guide, but Murdoch must still choose himself to listen and walk… if Rick as admonished him in private, then who is CRN to do it in public and then accuse Rick of whatever it is they are accusing him of? What? hmmm taking a donation from someone who might have sin in their lives… boy the last time I looked that about included everyone but Jesus… so I guess we all should not give to church anymore. LOL! (joyous laughter without a hint of nervousness!)
Blessings,
iggy
Chris P:
Jesus
__________________
Chris P:
Jesus
David:
Isaiah
Amos
Zechariah
The writer of Hebrews (traditionally, Paul)
Paul (on Mars Hill)
Warren is accoutable for his own stupidity. I never mentioned Murdoch’s sin. Murdoch will answer for himself.
Chris L. Is Warren my brother?
As for the rest. The scriptures are written for believers. One can only call on and seek the Lord only after the Lord has already revealed Himself to that person.
Romans 3 tells us that no one seeks God of His own will. Or are you saying that Bible contradicts itself?
OT Israel was chosen by God, and so they are told to seek Him.
As for Zechariah that is something to come. (Matthew 25:31-40: Rev 21:22-27)
Paul on Mars Hill
Ecclesiastes 3:
Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end.
Why is it that the stoics did not “find God”? Why did they build an altar to the “unknown” God ?
Isaiah 53:
1Who has believed what they heard from us?
And to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
Matthew 16:
And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.
Men seek everything but God.
Romans 1:18-21
Romans 3:
9What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
13″Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
14″Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
15″Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known.”
18″There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
God chooses first.
Chris P,
You error in your knowledge of Scripture so greatly…
“The scriptures are written for believers. One can only call on and seek the Lord only after the Lord has already revealed Himself to that person.”
what you are saying is that God cannot call the ungodly to salvation by reading GOd’s word… which is what i am attacked over time and time again as being untrue. (don’t go to that “you are puttin gwords in my mouth place as this is what i hear you saying and if I follow the logic of your reasoning… where it goes.)
God can a does reveal Himself to the ungodly…
Romans 5: 6 8 “You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.”
oops hit the wrong button…
I see that as Romans 5:10 states “For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!” you see we are reconciled by His death WHOLD WE WHERE STILL ENEMIES… in that we were justified while we were against God…
So, what does a dead man need…. LIFE… and that how we are saved, by the LIFE of Christ…
So then we need to here His calling…. (2 Thessalonians 1:11)
So before one is even saved, they must respond or reject to this calling… in that as we come to the end of ourselves and “give up” we then seek God to help us in our weakness… and in that hear His calling of kindness to repent from our own works… sin is just a byproduct of our own works…
If we do not trust Jesus for salvation, then we are trusting in ourselves and that is by our own works… otherwise we stand on Christ Jesus alone and rest in His works.
blessings,
iggy
As is often the case, the comments have moved from the original post, but I do have to say in Chris Rosebrough’s defense. He has told me personally that he did indeed call Saddleback (he has posted numerous times to this effect) so I’m not sure the BLOG response was correct in that regard. Since Chris R was the original blogger, I assume the guy is talking about. In fact Chris wrote a response to this article at his website. The biggest thing this article does is make some good points about slice/CRN. Chris R’s problem, I think, is that he allowed himself to be associated with those guys.
Alll of that to say I think Chris R. has the right to pursue this and while I don’t always agree with him, I have a hard time lumping him with the whole group.
iggy
I said that God reveals Himself first then we respond. You merely echoed that. The scriptures are what the second part of Deut 29:29 is speaking of. What has been revealed to us is for us. Us,i.e. God’s people.
I am not in error. I choose Him because I am saved, not to “get” saved, else it’s by works. Forgivenees always comes before repentance.
Why I am having this same argument with the sedevacantuist catholics? ar you semi-pelagian also?
http://forchrist-contramundum.blogspot.com/2007/05/faith-plus-works-is-damnable-heresy.html
(They are slow in posting my responses.)
Faith is not a work, it is a gift. I chose Him and then was saved, by faith, which is a gift He offers to everyone. Very simple but very easy to attach a microintellectualistic theology that makes us feel as if we’ve unravelled the mystery and organized the chronology and are just waiting for the poor free will people to come to this epiphany.
Well, I’m sorry but the reason we haven’t “seen the reformed light” is because God hasn’t given it to us yet, so blame Him!!
Chris P,
No you said that one does not seek God, I amended to the fuller teaching of Scripture as to what you left out.
And since I am not a Calvinist I see your view as most definitely wrong… as far as your view on “because I am saved” as “salvation” was not at the Cross… all are justified but not all are saved… Calvinists miss that subtle teaching.
Blessings,
iggy
Henry I did not say faith was a work. Where did you get that from? I have always asserted faith is a gift.
I am neither a calvinist, nor have I ever been reformed. I only go by what is in the Word. I have not unravelled any mystery, He reveals the mystery to us.
As for seeking. I said only the redeemed seek Yahweh of their own volition. The unredeeemd do not know who He is, so He must reveal Himself to them, and then they will actively seek Him. all this “God-shaped hole in every man” stuff is a load of malarkey.
Even if there is such a hole, no one is running around asking where Yahweh can be found. They are filling it with everything else but Him. No one will say yes without first being given the faith to say yes. Free will is limited, by what we see as the available choices.
God and His salvation is revealed in His Son, but Jesus Christ, and Him crucified, the revealed mystery, must be lifted up, i.e. preached before everyman can “make the choice” .
Just an FYI to Chris L. re:
Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca, ‘ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.
Jesus talks first about being angry with your brother, without reason btw. Then He talks of saying Raca to your brother. However when he speaks about saying you fool He dos not mention the phrase ” his brother”. Why not?
Cris P., I think I agree with what you have said.
This is crazy! I leave for one church consulting trip and the blog goes to war
I’m sad I missed it, but this really is crazy. every day I am on here, my heart grows more sad for people like Houston John. They really have not connected with the heart of God. It is obvious that they have connected with the heart of religion, and those two things are very different.
Some say complete power corrupts completely, I think complete religion corrupts completely. It is obvious that these men have gone the way of the pharisees. I can see them now, stones in hand around Rick Warren. They delight in the exploitation of the wrath of God, but His love is far from them. Fear is their control mechanism of choice, and it works best on people who do not understand the heart of God from the scriptures.
If your life mission is to correct everyone around you, great. I have one life to live, and I certainly am not going to make the crux of my ministry an attack on pastors thousands of miles away whom I have never met. But, I guess reformed theology really frees you up from alot of responsibility.
Nathan,
Thank you for being sad for me. Seriously, it is nice for people to be concerned. However, before you sew the last tassel on my pharisaical robe I would ask you to consider the following. It seems that people like yourselves confuse the biblical guidelines for handing personal insult and injury and private sins among believers with the guidelines for handling public sins. The Scriptures deal with these in radically different ways. You believe that I don’t understand the heart of God, yet you are only looking at one facet of His heart — Love — and ignoring His other attributes such as holiness. God’s heart also involves a zealousness for His Church and His people and if you truly examine the Scriptural evidence I think you will find that the “gloves come off” whenever one is dealing with false prophets and wolves that ravage His flock.
1 Tim 5:19-20 – Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Those who continue in sin, rebuke in the presence of all, so that the rest also will be fearful of sinning.
2 Tim 2:15-18 – Be diligent to present yourself approved to God as a workman who does not need to be ashamed, accurately handling the word of truth. But avoid worldly and empty chatter, for it will lead to further ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.
Titus 1:9-13 – holding fast the faithful word which is in accordance with the teaching, so that he will be able both to exhort in sound doctrine and to refute those who contradict. For there are many rebellious men, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision, who must be silenced because they are upsetting whole families, teaching things they should not teach for the sake of sordid gain. One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith,
And there are many more examples. Warren’s actions in question are PUBLIC in nature and require a public rebuke. The Bible’s admonitions regarding private and personal sins do not apply in this situation.
After years of study and from PERSONAL experience I truly believe that RW is a false prophet. As a pre-milllenist I will also go as far to say that he is at least a pre-cursor and type of THE False Prophet and maybe is the False Prophet. Time will tell. (His G.L.O.B.A.L. peace “plan” should be chilling to any serious student of the Word IMO).
RW sells a product, period — the Purpose Driven Franchise. He markets it to Protestants, jews and Catholic alike in order for them to help grow their congregations without sharing the true gospel. For example, I read for myself, from Jewish periodicals regarding Warren’s PD seminars where he promotes PD but NEVER mentions Christ. “The Church has enough people to worry about without making Jewish converts” he literally says. That in itself paints his true colors. Further, I looked on Saddleback’s website and personally saw such things as their last year’s single dance’s theme being “Hollywood Glitz and Glamour”. HOLLYWOOD, GLITZ, GLAMOUR – yes Christian themes all. Their flesh centered, world embracing “ministry†approach is plain to see by any with eyes to see at all. PD is the antithesis of all things Godly. It is humanistic by definition. I have personally had to leave TWO churches over the past 11 years that went Purpose Driven to the extent of literally having a dog brought in the sanctuary to sing on stage during a “sermon” – all in the name of seeker friendly. You couldn’t make this stuff up. Reality overcomes satire these days. He and his “product” have destroyed countless fellowships with no end in sight. So, yes I admit I am jaded in regards to Mr. RW. However, to your point the Scriptures also say:
2 Tim 2:24-26 – The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
In this regard I will confess I am not always gentle in regards to RW and I also admit that Slice and CRN certainly do not reflect these verses of late. But the Scriptures require telling the truth in love. I believe that Ingrid and Ken are sincere and zealous forl the truth. I also agree they could apply a lot more love (as could I) but I also admonish you to add some truth to your love.