The senseless attacks on Rick Warren continue from Christian Research Network and their gang of watch doggies. The lastest was from our good friend Chris Rosebrough at Extreme Theology. What are they up in arms about now? Five words: Worship, Evangelism, Discipleship, Ministry and fellowship.
Yep! How dare Rick Warren say that true churches hold to those five elements! In Rosebrough’s words, “Maybe it’s me, but this sure does sound like a dogmatic and judgmental statement on Rick Warren’s part.â€
Chris adds Mark Kelly’s quote (Purpose Driven Staff)
“…you don’t have to be part of any particular denomination to implement PD principles. There are Purpose Driven congregations in more than 200 different denominations and associations. Our desire is to work with denominations to strengthen their churches. Each church can maintain its own heritage and doctrinal convictions while cooperating with others on accomplishing the five purposes…â€
Chris Responds
This seems really odd to me. On the one hand these folks say that any church that isn’t fulfilling the 5 purposes ‘is not really a churchâ€. But on the other hand ANY church REGARDLESS OF DOCTRINAL CONVICTIONS can be Purpose Driven.
Exactly Chris! Reformed Theologians, Arminian theologians, Methodists, Baptists, and even Presbyterians can include Worship, Evangelism, Discipleship, Ministry and fellowship in their churches. It’s pretty simple. If you can tell me which one of these five purposes can be removed, and the church can still function as the scriptures command, go right ahead. You failed to do that in your blog.
Chris Continues
So with these PD folks, the truth of a church’s doctrinal statement doesn’t determine whether or not it is ‘really a church’. But, the thing that matters is whether or not they are fulfilling the 5 purposes.
First off, no one said or implied that. They said that the five purposes work within existing doctrinal statements. The five purposes are found in scripture. They are prescribed by God, not Rick Warren (I hope that we can all agree on that). And, when they are fulfilling the five purposes from a scriptural basis, their doctrinal statements will come. You see, most people live their lives based on a doctrinal statement and find scripture to back up their theology. What Rick is suggesting is that we start with scriptural purposes and allow our theology to be formed from the word, not a doctrinal creed.
So Chris, which of these purposes are optional in a church:
- Evangelism
- Fellowship
- Worship
- Ministry
- Discipleship
UPDATED
If you doubted that Ken was not a sore loser with the Porno story, let his last few article titles speak for themselves:
- RICK WARREN: CHAMPIONING THE CAUSE OF RELEVANCE FOR THE PURPOSE DRIVEN NEW EVANGELICAL EMERGING CHURCH
- RICK WARREN: A PORNOGRAPHIC PURPOSE DRIVEN RESPONSE TO JOSEPH FARAH, CHRIS ROSEBROUGH AND KEN SILVA
- RICK WARREN: SADDLEBACK’S PURPOSE DRIVEN CENSORS DIDN’T SPIN FAST ENOUGH
- PURPOSE DRIVEN MEGA-CHURCH PASTOR RICK WARREN UNDER FIRE OVER MEDIA MOGUL PARISHIONER’S PORN CHANNELS
- RICK WARREN: SADDLEBACK RESPONSE TO MURDOCH/PORN ISSUE SUDDENLY VANISHES!
looks like someone picked up his ball, went home and threw a Purpose-Driven Tantrum
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
7 Comments(+Add)
Every evangelical church believes in those things so what is Warren’s point? I’ve never heard a church say “We don’t believe in evangelism or worship or ministry, etc.”.
My disagreement with the PDL is that it defines these terms in a way which doesn;t interfere with our lifstyle or call for any real sacrifice. (i.e. you can worship God while taking out the garbage)
Most blatant in his book is the unbelievable shallow way he deals with prayer. To say it is on the back burner would be kind. This book is a sales strategy for church growth offered in a painless and palatable way to busy American Christians who want Jesus as part of a well rounded western lifestyle.
Warren didn’t say that you had to be a purpose driven church, but that you should have these five purposes in your ministry. I thought it was really refreshing and not alarming that Kelly said churches off all creeds and traditions could instill these purposes.
Did I sleep through 10.5 months? It has to be an April Fool’s joke to claim that Chris R accused someone else of dogma and judgmentalism.
Nathan,
It seems that Chris R misses the point completely… if these other become purpose driven then they will do those five things… regardless to their Doctrinal commitments.
And I like you, have yet to find a “true” Christian church that does not want to do those things and in part is why they do the “Purpose Driven” program.
I am not a PDL fan by far, yet I am not against it. In fact I see that some have been so badly taught by “other” churches or none… have yet to be properly discipled and have no idea who they are in Christ nor what are they do to once in Christ…
So, people like Chris R can blame themselves for not disciplineing people properly so that they would not have left that church to be come more interested in, “Worship, Evangelism, Discipleship, Ministry and fellowship.”
I can speak from personal experience that I have met and talked to many, many former fundees who have become PDL people as they did not see their purpose short of going to church, listen to a sermon, and read their bible…. not bad things in and of themselves… but without a purpose rather a meaningless “do list”. They broke out of Idolizing their pastor and found Jesus had much more for them than being under that man’s “authority” and that man’s purpose.
Blessings,
iggy
Rick,
Not necessarily you, but many people have told me they think that Warren wrote PDL and Purpose Driven Church as marketing strategy books or even just to make money. What he did was try to put into words what actually happened at his church. Saddleback is not just a church of numbers, it is a number of people who became Christians at that church, spiritually matured and are now serving and bearing fruit. Warren saw something that worked. No method ever saved anyone but God uses many methods to bring lost people into His fellowship. They might be PDL methods or traditional MacArthur methods. Singing out of a hymn book is not palatable to me but modern worship music can bring tears to my eyes and has physically knocked me to my knees. God uses them both.
“looks like someone picked up his ball, went home.”
That the best you can do nathan? Um, I’ve hardly taken my ball and gone home friend; I’m right before your face on the World Wide Web. It’s not over…
this isn’t about who throws the best punches. It is about the truth. And, judging from your latest mission on Apprising, you have a VERY low value for it.