As I have been reading all of the senseless and uninformed articles on Christian Research Network, Apprising and Slice, I realized something pretty interesting. Most of the men and women that write there are living life facing backwards. Almost all of their writings are about what happened hundreds of years ago in Christendom. They quote ancient writers, blog on historical hymn texts and always accusing someone of denying the reformation and the power there in.
There is rarely an article about what God is doing today and how he is working in his church in the present and future. There are the occasional tidbits about John MacArthur’s mega-church, and even those have to do with him attacking a new movement of God. For people who are so worried about a living and powerful truth being maintained and proclaimed, they sure aren’t doing much with it.
It’s sad that these men have dedicated their lives to the preservation of truth, but not the present and future proclamation and working out of that truth. They live their lives looking backward at what God has done and protect their precious memories at all costs. They attack modern music because hymns remind them of the good ol days. They attack multimedia and technology in church because it wasn’t like the good ol days. They attack new methods because they slowly see their comfortable way of doing church falling apart. They will never know the excitement of seeing God work in the here and now because they are too busy reveling in the.
Don’t get me wrong. I love to read the great writers of our faith. I just completed a one year master’s course in church history, and have such a deep respect for men like Luther and Calvin and Watts. However, the spirit of God is moving and active today. I think Jesus would much rather have us live out an ancient-future faith. Our lives grounded in the foundation of the past, but moving with the Spirit of God in his work today and the days to come.
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“the spirit of God is moving and active today. I think Jesus would much rather have us live out an ancient-future faith.”
Right Erwin McManus Jr., but the point you obviously miss is that God the Holy Spirit doesn’t contradict Himself.
You see, the Lord doesn’t raise up a Reformation through men you supposedly “respect” like Martin Luther and John Calvin, who taught the doctrine of divine election, and then turn around and raise up spineless spiritual sissies like Erwin McManus and Rick Warren, who hate that very doctrine, and who have now reversed it.
Friend, it looks as if you need a refund from your “master” Church history class.
Ken,
There is no practical application of election, aside from those in line with fatalistic determinism, which is why it was not a core doctrine of Jesus, Paul or the other apostles. They understood the divinity of God, but they didn’t take it to conclusions that are truly beyond our comprehension.
“Spineless Sissies”? I’ll take guys like McManus who live out their faith and to whom God has faithfully entrusted large flocks for which to care than false prophets, like yourself, Ingrid and Chris P., whose flocks consist of those too weak to leave their abusive “care”.
Any day of the week – and twice on Sunday…
Ken reveals more and more of just what kind of man he really is with each post. I honestly can’t imagine what it’s like to live day in and day out for the “glory” of trying to tear people down. What a sad life.
Nathan, good observation. Did you coin the “ancient-future” term? It’s an interesting concept…although I can see that it might could mean two, completely opposite things. But I know what you meant.
Ken, Ingrid, et al are becoming the tabloid paparazzi of the christian world. You see their “research” on your way to the Amazon checkout and just shake your head….
…at their incredulity itself as well as the poor souls who will pick it up and believe it.
By the way, is it just me, or does anyone else bristle slightly whenever they actually type in CRN’s URL? Christian research my butt.
I have noticed before that only combative posts are articulated personally while devotional ones are almost always cut and paste from someone else’s historical heart. But I am glad to hear you Chris give credence to historical understandings of Biblical truth. I have just posted an article that asks some honest questions for all of us. Feel free.
http://judahslion.blogspot.com/2007/05/irreconcilable-differences-i-s-it-wrong.html
Ken,
While Calvin mistakenly combines the atonement and salvation as one…
Luther taught that we should not even try to reconcile total depravity of man, universal grace, and God’s election of individuals for fear it would diminish one of the teachings.
Though I have a few things I disagree with Luther on, to say as you are saying that Luther and Calvin agreed is far from the actual truth and are misrepresenting Luther.
The real issue of Calvin and Luther is that they missed that the atonement and salvation are not the same thing… that man is reconciled at the Cross, but saved by the Life of Christ… as Romans 5 teaches… we are saved by the resurrection of Jesus…
So all are forgiven yet not all are saved… this is not universalism in the sense that all are saved at the cross as that is the issue both Calvin and Luther where fighting against… if all were saved at the cross then that would be Universalism… yet Calvin chose to make only the “elect” saved at the Cross, which cuts across the grain of Scriptures teachings… and Luther just did not see we should reconcile the teachings as i said alsready.
So, once again you lack of understanding simple biblical teachings and the short comings of these men… gives you a not so biblical doctrine you attempt to live by… (Which is works by the way… that living by doctrine as the Bible teaches we live by the Life of Christ).
I fully understand and recognize not all will agree with me… yet I need to be true tothe truth God has revealed to me and teach it as it has been taught to me. In that I trust that the Holy Spirit will fix what I may not yet fully understand.
Blessings,
iggy
…yet I need to be true tothe truth God has revealed to me and teach it as it has been taught to me. In that I trust that the Holy Spirit will fix what I may not yet fully understand.
A great and honest statement iggy. May God search our hearts to see if there be any uncleaness in them. He always seems to find some in mine when I allow Him full access. Go figure…
Ken,
Did God contradict himself when he initiated the reformation, even though he had already begun the movement of the church several hundred years earlier? No. You act as if the reformation is the last thing that God wanted to do on earth.
So we see from history that God is doing new things all the time. We should live life learning and respecting the past, but actively participating in what he is doing in the present and future.
And this isn’t about which church father had the better theology. It is about living your life in what God is doing NOW, rather than trying hard to preserve what he did YESTERDAY.
Rick,
that is the beauty of the diversity of the Body of Christ… that the toe will not see things the same as the hand… in that we can learn from each other as part of the whole Body of Christ…. yet it seems some desire all to me only as they are… and are saying anyone who is not an eyelash is not part of the Body..
Though you and I may not agree on many things, I appreciate your thoughts… I do think we agree on more than we disagree on though… at least I hope. = )
Blessings,
iggy
Nathan,
I agree with you… in fact Spurgeon agreed with you also… as well as Tozer…
We preserve the past by living now, and facing the future…
We are not to just stay in the past… I mean that was the main issue of the reformation wasn’t it? That many were stuck in the “traditions” and did not live the bible out in the now?
Yet, we need to recognize the traditions, even in their flaws and see the good of them to better learn for now to reach those God sets in front of us tomorrow.
Blessings,
iggy
I believe we must agree on Jesus Himself, and on that Rock we can move forward. As you know my concern is that future generations will agree with us on Jesus. I may not agree but I am learning as I hope some will take what the Lord speaks through my imperfect vessel and give it a hearing. It is important.
Rick,
We are all but clay vessels that contain the Glory of God… all we can do is just walk and let that Glory shine through…
Blessings,
iggy
Ken, please.
Disagree if you must, but stop with the venom and name-calling. That is not holy anger and you delude yourself, as does anyone else here who does the same, into thinking that it is. A defender of the faith is a noble calling, not about name-calling. There needs to be self-control. You can be direct and strong and unmoving without doing what you’re doing. You don’t have to take anyone’s bait. Please.
Your name is attached to all these things you say, is attached to your ministry and the ministry of others, for Internet infinity, and you are a minister of the Gospel — this is not right.
Please.
Julie,
Thank you for your “concern,” but frankly your judgment of me is way off. Probably a good idea for you would be to just not read what I say. The truth is I have a lot more self-control than you know because no one has caused me to take any “bait.”
You say: “Your name is attached to all these things you say.” That’s as it should be, but we just don’t have any more time to play nice and you need to know this is only going to escalate.
Ken, correct me if I am wrong, but would it be fair to say that you and many of us are misunderstood because our comments are not accentuated by body language, inflection, volume, etc.
I assume that if we were all having coffee, we might still disagree, but we would not be as offended because in person the message would be more clear and not seem as costic.
err….I mean caustic
Darren,
I could agree with that.
Darren,
it is easier to make outrageous statements about people on the internet. You don’t have to look a man in the eye and talk about them to their face. I believe this is one of the reasons why Ken doesn’t speak with many of the men he attacks.
I agree with that as well. I think we should all comment on the internet as if we were on a long car trip together.
What you are saying is what I call the car / shopping cart analogy. Two people almost have a car accident and they extend their middle finger and get all upset. If those same two people almost run their shopping carts into each other at the store, it’s “excuse me” and pleasantries all the way around.
..or it’s much easier to push a button to launch a cruise missile than it is to shove a bayonet into a man’s heart with that same hand.
“Very well” Ken. I’ll just hop along and “let” you “do ‘your’ thing.”
My point being, as I sit here calmly, no middle finger extended, not as easily dismissed as that: Quotes are a way of inflecting that which Darrren is attempting to say is missing. There are ways of purposefully trying to change tone, and quotes is one. I agreee with Darren, though I also get tired of people hiding behind that idea when called to the carpet, saying they aren’t being understood correctly because of the medium, particularly if there is a level of quotes that outshines Reuters. This is the medium. Use it the best way it allows.
Particularly for Christians.
Also, I, too, value the attachment of names to writing. That was not my point. As I think you “know.”
(See, there I was being snitty.)
Frankly, I don’t think I, or anyone else, is misunderstanding Ken at all. I say that without quotes, sarcasm, or bad attitude.
(De-escalating now. It was, actually, originally well-meant.)
Ken,
I can only take your comment toward me as meant to be hurtful and harmful… I am sure you mean them that way…
If not that is how you come across… So, maybe if that is not true you need to not be so sarcastic… as I think most of us agree with Julie and can see through the facade you present.
Did you notice you have hurt me and have harmed me? Even if you did not mean to you did… and yet you never apologize… you just continue to criticize me over and over…
I find humor in it as I see is exposes your heart and the mean spirit you have.
BTW this is not “bait” but a genuine observation… and concern…
Be Blessed,
iggy
Julie,
I was trying to alleviate some of the negative discourse and have told Ken in the past that he would be taken more seriously if he stayed on point and left out many adjectives and name-calling and stayed on point.
I know that as soon as I read something that resembles venom, I tune out the rest.
Darren,
You took the high road. I’m just going to drop it after this comment. I don’t want the thread to go out of control and make Chris close it.
I do agree that when the venom is evident, I stop reading. I think that’s an important reason Christian leaders, ministers, etc. have to be careful of not what they say (in that they are to just be agreeable and compromise what they believe), but that they need to be careful in how they say things.
Even if the message is good or true, the tongue needs to be controlled. I know this myself, a person who frequently fails in this area…
Anyway, that’s all I was trying to say.
Ken said: “we just don’t have any more time to play nice”
I think it’s hilarious how they constantly quote A. W. Tozer…I’ve read some of him, and I tihnk if he lived today he just might be lumped in with some of the ‘emerging’ crowd Ken feels so strongly about. I read a blog somewhere about how Tozer is(or was?) emerging…and there was some pretty dang good evidence to support it too.
Ony if there’s a log in your eye…
whats that supposed to mean, Ken?
Isn’t that a watchblogger toast? “Here’s log in your eye!”
It means Ken can’t see the truth because there is a log in his eye…
LOL!
Be Blessed,
iggy
Almost all of their writings are about what happened hundreds of years ago in Christendom.
That is utter nonsense. To think that shows you have no ability to focus on the purpose (RW has made me despise using that word) behind why they write. That purpose is to direct people away from the broad road that leads to destruction, which many in here are seemingly giddy about traveling and gathering others to. Jesus said “Narrow is the gate and difficult the way that leads to life and there are few who find it” – seems he was warning his listeners to examine themselves, yet the same spirit of leadership that calls for self-examination is widely despised by a multitude of so-called Christians, many in here exhibit such a disdain for this by what they write, no names since you should know of whom I speak.
Bill,
it is not utter nonsense. Maybe 1 out of 20 articles has to to with bringing the gospel to people.
Also Bill, if the elect are irresistibly drawn and will never fall away, then all of the warnings are meaningless.
Bill,
I think so many are missing the point all together.
The focus on the emergent is first and foremost Jesus Christ and in that we are seeking ways (not new ways which no one I know of is claiming) to express our faith and worship to Jesus… to say that these self appointed “watchdogs” know how we are personally and corporately worship better than what Jesus is teaching is blasphemy to me.
If we have a personal relationship, which in the ec relationship is one of the top and most important values, then we seek out of our own relationship to relate and love our brothers and sisters, then others outside our circle in hope we reach the whole world… this is not about being wide.
Now, the PDL ideals are to have a wide funnel on top which gets narrower at the bottom… the wide path that leads to the narrow way… by discipleship.
As far as the others that these watch groups are accurate about, I see that their hate and inaccuracies on these two movements are so off they taint everything else they have to say… it discredits them.
Blessings,
iggy