I was just commenting yesterday to another member of Mars Hills that it amazes me how much Rob uses scriptures when he preaches. Most of his messages our spent exgetting a text. He educates his audience on the culture and history of every text he reads. You can tell he dedicates a lot of time to studying the bible and studying history!

“my problem is with what he doesn’t say. His life and ministry are not gospel centered – they are social help centered.”

Wow! His ministry is most definitly gospel centered! The Gospels is all about loving and serving others. That is what Jesus did and that is what we do at Mars! Rob made a phenominal statement in one of his sermons. He said “What would the world be like if churches stopped being all about themselves and instead start focusing on others. He said we have all these agencies that we should call if we want to help the homeless, crisis pregnancy, aids in Africa. These agencies are great, but shoudn’t it be the church the world contacts if they want to offer help? When he said that, I thought ” He is right!” The church should be the ones minstring to the world not the government and non profit agencies. We should be the primary source of the help.(not the these agencies)
All that CRN shows is that they are in the buisness of taking care of themselves.
I feel bad for people, who sit around and slam Rob. They no nothing about him. They make assumptions. I could only hope that these people will find better ways to spend their time!

I’m not going to get into a protracted debate about Rob here, but I would seek clarification. (I guess I’m just not seeing clearly enough–man does that make the song go off) where did you “nail him” again? I’ve read your post 3 times and I just don’t see it. Maybe I’m blinded because I’ve read the whole book…

There is not a “social gospel” that is separate from the Gospel. The Gospel is about the Kingdom of God. Period. I’m not saying that Jesus dying for sins isn’t intregal to it, but that’s not the whole picture. There are many times in the gospels themselves where it says Jesus was “preaching the Gospel” before He died. What was he preaching? It doesn’t seem like He was preaching about Justification. It seems like He was proclaiming that the Kingdom of God was at hand, and that through repentance and faith in Him, they could live in that kingdom. It wasn’t just about the Atonement.

Also, it is ridiculous to judge someone’s whole ministry based on one chapter of a book. I for one have read both of Bell’s books, listened to countless sermons, and done other personal research and have come to the conclusion that Bell is a very annointed pastor. I honestly think a lot of the criticism comes from pastors because he represents something to them that they don’t have. Bell’s church is growing and vibrant, while theirs are dying. It’s very simple. You can mask in whatever criticism you want, but it all comes down to jealousy.

Also the critique of the chapter is full of non sequitors, but, whatever, it’s just more of the same. You would think people would get tired of rehashing these things. I made my mind up a long time ago, and Bell hasn’t done anything to make me change it.

Phil,
You are right on!! You nailed it in the head!:-)

Erica,

Please focus here because what I ask has nothing whatsoever to do with believing me:

“Rob uses scriptures when he preaches. Most of his messages our spent exgetting a text. He educates his audience on the culture and history of every text he reads. You can tell he dedicates a lot of time to studying the bible and studying history!”

So does Dr. John MacArthur and his message is diametrically opposed to the “learned” Bell. So which of these learned men who educate their audience are we supposed to believe?

Or how about Jehovah’s Witnesses? They also dedicate “a lot time of time to studying the Bible and studying history.” Actually Rob us much closer to their unbiblical theology than he is to Dr. MacArthur’s proper Biblical theology.

Erica,
Have you ever heard Rob Bell point out that men are unrighteous apart from God, no matter how many righteous works they have done?

I have listened to 3-4 sermons and read excerpts from his book and haven’t seen Bell talk about the importance of the Son of God’s death. Have you heard him talk about this?

If I were a giving, loving, “good,” non-Christian person, I could have walked away from any of those sermons not knowing that I was in fact a sinner in need of salvation. I realize that not every preacher shares “the gospel” every time he preaches; with my (yes limited) experience in listening to Rob Bell, not only have I not heard the gospel, I’ve heard scriptures twisted.

Does Bell believe in a literal hell? If so, does he make that clear, or is it something for which you have to look between the lines in his writing?

It would be interesting for someone who believes that Clearly’s specific points about the passages he addressed are off target, to demonstrate WHY they are off target.

Ken,
I believe you should believe neither. I believe you should take everything you hear and study it out yourself. I believe their is a lot in scripture that is open to interpretaion.(I mean by that, obviously a hundred people can pull something different out of one verse) Who is right? I don’t know.
I believe you should follow Jesus with your life! Read scripture, Study it out, try to understand the culture it was written in and pray that the Holy Spirit directs your thoughts. Here is thing, Ken, there is a lot of fuzzy areas in the bible, Some of it may not be meant to understand. What is meant for us to understand is pretty clear and that is what Christ did. In the end I don’t think God cares if we believe in the seven points of Calvinism and someone else did not. In the end it will matter what we did with His Son. A friend of mine from church said to me yesterday that the bible makes it clear we will be suprised who actually makes it to heaven. A lot of people will say Lord, Lord did I not do this or that, and he will look at them and say depart from me I never knew you. That is a scary thought to me.
Here is what I know, I know Jesus, I believe in Jesus, and I will live my life serving Him. I hope I die trying to pay him back for what He did for me. Of course I will never achieve that goal. I hope when I die that all people will say of me is not “she sure did fight for what she believed!” Who cares! I want people to know that I love Jesus and what the world to know how He has changed my life and know that He can change theirs.
So I don’t know who is right! For all I know you could be, that is a scary thought for both of us I imagine, my question for you is right about what? Rather or not I am pre-trib or post trib? Who cares? Rather or not I believe in election? Who cares? Rather or not I believe you can loose your salvation? Doesn’t matter. Really everyone has their own interpretation of the book of Revelation. Who is right? Who cares, we will know when God returns right?I just don’t know why we get so wrapped in arguing over this stuff. Believe in Christ’s work on the cross that he did not stay dead that he conquered death and rose again and the world has never been the same. You use the Jehovah witnesses, they do not believe in Christ’s work on the cross. They believe hell came about in 1944. Come on, they are not even close to what Bell, and others teach. I am not eduacated much on the Mormons. I know they beleve in having more than one wife.( Come on, who could handle more than one wife?:-) Atheists believe in themselves and not God. We know that flies in the face of scripture. I know I am rambling so I will stop. Hopefully, I have answered your questions.

Amy, is it critical to believe in a literal Hell to receive the grace and forgiveness of Jesus?

To the Reverend Pastor Priest,

Its a testament to how wrong you are.

Tim

Nathan,

I would trust you over Ken’s research any day… the issue here is one that really scares me.

Most that listen to Bell diligently study the scriptures…

Yet, I find many people who follow John Mac tend to almost quote him as much as scripture…

They seem to quote Spurgeon, Calvin, and MacArthur… and on and on… and then use their view to teach others. In that I have interacted with many MacArthurites who will USE Scripture to prove their doctrinal points… and when I point out that it “literally” does not state that, they begin name calling and attack on me personally… it usually starts with…

“you can’t be truly saved and have a link to Brian McLaren on your blog.” I usually ask them to point to the scripture that states that!!!! LOL!

Yet, it is like a script the follow… (not a scirpture) in how the deconstruct what I say and then reconstruct it so they can attack me as they have labeled me… then I state we agree and they call me a liar…

OK enough on me. The point is that this guys article confesses exactly what I knew all along… they don’t read anything and they know less than anything… they go on hearsay and rumor and don’t bother to even check it out for themselves… I mean has this guy ever heard of a library? How about borrowing a book from someone who has read it… Like Ken, I am sure he as the books since he does so much thorough research and has had to have actually read a few of these books since he is such an authority…

In fact I bet that the honesty level at CRN has just gone up a bar with this confession of not actually reading and doing research and TRUSTING A ANOTHER MAN’S view as they follow suit in slandering and lies…

Blessings,
iggy

Tim and Ken, please keep your name calling for somewhere else. If you wish to engage each other that’s great, but let’s stay away from acting in such a manner.
Thanks!

Ken, I was actually trying to defend you. What’s a guy to do?

Erica,
If you ever have a lot of time on your hands go back and read Chris and my discussion on Bell’s sermon on Peter, Rabbi Jesus. Just looking at that sermon alone I would be very concerned about how Bell handles scripture.

I have no problem with a believer who is walking with Christ baptizing another believer.

Erica and Nathan,
Nathan, You said, “listening to 3-4 sermons and only reading excerpts from a book doesn’t give you a very good picture of a person’s theology.”

On the other hand, sometimes hearing only a few words from a person can put grave doubts into your mind as to what the person actually believes.

It’s not just what I haven’t heard him say. It’s what I have heard him say. I can’t reconcile some of what he says with someone who clearly believes that people are lost without Christ.

Nathan,
“What you are doing is major problem that critics of Bell have. Most, like you, have read excerpts from a book and heard a few sermons. Then you get the rest of your info from Ken and suddenly you are able to make “educated” claims against Bell.”

Aren’t there a lot of people who have problems with Rob Bell? Are you assuming that all of those people 1) are followers of Ken Silva 2) have no brains of their own 3) lack the Holy Spirit 4) don’t know the Word of God?

Go back and look at my discussions about Rob Bell’s sermons. If I were just “getting the rest of my info from Ken Silva” I wouldn’t have even bothered spending all the time I did trying to work through those issues. I could have simply cut and pasted Silva. Before you sarcastically call my or anyone else’s decision “educated” look at the arguments and refute them, point by point. You can start with “clearly’s” arguments.

Todd,
I don’t think I could give a better answer than Ken Silva has given. I would add that if a person doesn’t believe in a literal hell then there may be quite a number of other scriptural ideas they don’t believe in either.

So, because we want to make a measureable difference in the world by joining the God of the oppressed we are extending the kingdom in physical ways now, but according to you we’re doomed to failure so why bother worrying about it?

Joe, you have this way of taking a very articulate comment and trying to make it look stupid. I am saying that “making a difference” apart from justification is not really making a real, lasting difference.

Nathan, I forgot that part of the gospel.

Amy,
Unfortuntely, we three young children I do not have a lot of time on my hands. Amy what kills me about people is how they think they know more about Mars Hill and Rob and they do not even go to his church. There is more to Mars Hill than what he preaches. (Although his preaching is one of the best parts) There are question and answer times, buisness meeting, Mars is open and operating almost every day. Here is my question for you, you say Rob twists scripture right? What makes you right?

A John MacArthur vs. Rob Bell debate.

The perfect storm.

Erica,
You said, “Here is my question for you, you say Rob twists scripture right? What makes you right? ”

When and if you ever do have time, go back and look at the discussions I’ve had with Chris. In the Peter-Rabbi Jesus message, for example, Bell either purposefully or accidentally ignored texts which would have contradicted his views. If you want to study what I and others have written regarding Bell’s handling of scripture, and then ask “What makes you right?” that’s fine. But might I suggest that if you can’t study the arguments, then questions like “what makes you right?” are inappropriate.

I realize that this may sound harsh so let me say that understand about being a mom of small kids and that you have little time and probably little energy for really delving deep into things. I’ve been there and know what it’s like to not be able to put more than two thoughts together at a time.

Nathan,
The Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of letting someone know in less than a second that someone is a false teacher. I’m not saying that he’s done this with me regarding Rob Bell, but I certainly wouldn’t want to limit His power.

As for your first point, I would also say that if I believed that the Spirit showed me such a thing about anyone that if He wanted me to share it with people he would most likely help me in the hard work of looking at a person’s work and analyzing it according to the word of God.

As for your second point, “Basically you have heard about 135-200 minutes of a guy talking to a church. How is that enough to suggest that he doesn’t talk about issues like the death of Christ, hell, etc. Get off the high horse” you have probably heard much less than 135-200 minutes of my “talking.” Yet, besides that I am on a “high horse,” you have made a number of judgements (incorrect) about me from things I’ve said. How can that be?

Erica,
You said, “I have not heard him talk about Hell. I am not sure what he believe there.”

I don’t understand how you can be a follower of someone and go to his church and not see the importance of whether or not he believes in hell.

There are just way too many questions that this opens up about a teacher’s understanding of the significance of Christ’ sacrifice.

Nathan,
Can an unbeliever come to an understanding that Jesus is the Son of God without doing hours of homework? Is there nothing supernatural about the way the Holy Spirit works?

Can not the same Holy Spirit who convicts men of sin and righteousness let someone know that a teacher is not of God?

What is the gift of distinguishing between spirits? (I Cor 12)

Didn’t Paul say something about some say “I am a follower of Paul, yet others say I am a follower of Apollos..” I wonder if we could fit that to your statement to Erica, Amy.

another nathan,

“I don’t understand how you think you have the right to teach people who are not entrusted to your spiritual care?”

Right, you yourself shouldn’t.

Nathan,
I didn’t say a person could come to Christ without scripture. I’m saying that being born again is a supernatural act that requires the drawing of the Holy Spirit.

Nor did I claim to know that God told me that anyone is a heretic. I do believe that He has given me a conviction in a couple of cases that the spirit behind someone’s teaching is not of God, prior to my understanding fully what was wrong (And I don’t plan to elaborate on this.) I do believe that He could let someone know that someone else is a false teacher. The ultimate test as to whether or not that knowledge came from God would be whether the alleged false teacher’s teaching contradicts scripture.

Did I claim to be a prophet?

Now, see what happens when you read the whole book?
Nice answer Phil

So what is Bell talking about here?:“Now if there’s a realm where things are as God wants them to be, then there must be a realm where things are not as God wants them to be. Where things aren’t according to God’s will. Where people aren’t treated as fully human. It’s called hell.. . ” (as quoted by Clearly from the book Sex God)

Bell’s description of hell simply sounds like a lot of places on this earth.

And Joe, does it matter to you what Bell believes about hell? At what point doesn’t it matter?

Amy,
Not trying to sound harsh here, but the reality is God and than my family are the most important thing to me. My time is spent getting to know God better and serving my family. I do not have time to sit down and read debates you have with other people. Especially when it seems you do not know what you are talking about concerning Bell. You do not even know a half of the pie. I should not have to spend my time researching your debates with others for you to answer my questions. I am just not going to do it. You don’t have to answer my questions that is fine but to suggest I spend hours away from my family and God and in order to try and make sense out of what you are saying is ludicrous.
Of course I believe in Hell, I can tell by what Rob says he believes in hell. I would have been lieing to you if I would have said that I have heard him mention Hell. Some times I think you believe that a pastor has to touch on every doctrine every Sunday. That seems unreasonable to me. I am excited to be a part of Mars Hill. I am sure that eventually something will come up that I do not agree with that is ok. It will make me think!

Actually, Ken…
I’m not attempting to teach you.

Erica,

I promised you a response.

Many of the texts that you cite are so convicting, about having compassion, about helping where we can! What opporunities for sharing the gospel.

However, I have not said anything that negated the fact that we should be doing good to all men. My point is that the good things we do is not returning the world to the way it should be; we are incapable of doing this. The power of God as manifested through the gospel is the only thing that is capable of returning the universe to the way God intended it to be.

I will respond to some of the texts you brought up:

John 12:5 Why wasn’t this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year’s wages. ”

In this passage, the emphasis is clearly upon serving Christ. Any reference to helping the poor is clearly seconday. Jesus told them, “the poor you always have with you, but me you do not always have.”

Romans 15:26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.

The emphasis in Scripture is first of all helping those in need in local churches (see Galatians 6:10). Then, as we have opportunity, we should help all who are in need.

I Corinthians11:30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep.

I’m not really sure why you have included this verse! It comes from 1 Corinthians 11, and explains that the Lord has taken some people home early for taking part in the Lord’s supper in an unworthy fashion.

Acts 28:8 His father was sick in bed, suffering from fever and dysentery. Paul went in to see him and, after prayer, placed his hands on him and healed him.(Acts is were the church started, they went out and helped the sick, notice they went outside their building walls.)

We don’t have the power to heal diseases today. Jesus did. Paul even did. These powers and abilities were given to validate the gospel message. We can sort of recreate the scenario in this age as we feed the hungry, shelter the homeless, etc. It validates the gospel; but it isn’t the gospel. Working to restotre human life to the way God designed it cannot be accomplished via good works. It can only be accomplished through evangelisim.

Clearly,
We are suppose to be about serving the people in our churches first? Wow! You mentioned Acts, all those people mentioned were not in his local church. At least not the way it is defined today. How do you know people can no longer be healed. We limit God so much it scares me! We can not change the world, so why try. Is essentially what I am gathering from you. That is like saying eventually I am going to die so why go to the doctor if I am sick. All the gospel stories I mentioned were about Jesus reaching out to the world. He went beyond his twelve disciples and reached out to others.
Nathan is right, you know nothing about Rob Bell and yet you act as if you know everything he stands for. That would be like me telling one of your members everything you stand for. I know very little about you. I would be very careful listening to what others say and reading clips of books and than judging a whole persons relationship with Christ on the little information you know. All of what you say about Rob is wrong, even down to what he believes.(You might want to check your sources!)

Erica you said,
” I do not have time to sit down and read debates you have with other people. Especially when it seems you do not know what you are talking about concerning Bell. ”

How do you know I don’t know what I’m talking about if you don’t have time to read what I’ve written?

You also said, “Of course I believe in Hell, I can tell by what Rob says he believes in hell.” Yet earlier you said, “I have not heard him talk about Hell. I am not sure what he believe” there.” Which is it?

Joe you said, “Yes, Amy it does matter to me.(what Rob Bell believes about hell.) I just happen to agree with him. As far as what Rob means, I made myself a promise that I wouldn’t get into protracted debates on this site or others.”

So I can conclude that whatever Bell believes about hell you agree with but you don’t feel free to explain what you think he means. So I can not help but think that whatever his beliefs are they are certainly not cut and dry and clear from scripture. So I cannot therefore assume that the statement earlier taken from Velvet Elvis, “Hell is full of forgiven people God loves, whom Jesus died for.” is talking about a place of everlasting torment.

You ask, “Does your preacher honestly discuss Hell every Sunday? If I listened to the sermon he preached on Mother’s Day was it a “salvation message”? This entire argument seems beyond ludicrous to me. ” Your changing the argument here. Clearly presented Bell’s words which would bring up questions in many people’s minds as to whether or not Bell believes in hell. I’m asking for clarification on what he teaches about hell, not making a judgement on how often he talks about hell.

And by the way the elder who spoke at my church on Mother’s Day did preach a very clear salvation message, especially directed to the children.

Amy, you are free to assume whatever you wan to assume. I have found that our disagreements in the past have not been beneficial. Our perspectives seem worlds apart. It seems to me that you do a lot of assuming based on little information and that is fine if you chose to do that. As I said, I made myself a promise that I won’t get into protracted debates here or on other sites. If that leads to assumptions on your part, have at it.

Joe, I deleted your post because it you wrote,

“Clearly, your actions here represent some of the worst aspects of the internet. The depth of depravity is disgusting.”

I didn’t appreciate your lumping me in with the pornographers of the internet, saying that I represent some of the worst aspects of the internet. Whether you meant it like that or not, that’s how I took it. That’s why I deleted your comment.

Cowardice, I highly doubt it; my name is hidden for reasons that are quite important to me, not because I would be ashamed of placing my name with what I write. Cowardice, no. I am researching my views on Bell and backing them up with more proof.

http://seeingclearly.wordpress.com/2007/06/10/rob-bell62-podcast/

Rick,

“you are the Ken Silva from another perspective…an argumentative judge who is just waiting to verbally attack some one.” Just remember, you said it.

And Joe said, “you are free to assume whatever you wan[t] to assume. I have found that our disagreements in the past have not been beneficial. Our perspectives seem worlds apart. It seems to me that you do a lot of assuming based on little information and that is fine if you chose to do that… I won’t get into protracted debates here or on other sites. If that leads to assumptions on your part, have at it.”

So on one here should have a problem with me in these areas. What good for the emerging Mars Hill covenant member is also good for those of us who believe in the doctrines of grace.

Oh and Clearly, making that jump to pornography is a pretty big one. Good thing Lyons isn’t around he actually made a reference to what Silva and his kind do as pornography. As I remember, there were some who were pretty upset. Nathan made an excellent point for what I was trying to say.
So take care.

Henry, I was going to post exactly what Mark just posted. Help me understand that. I just went back and re-read my comments. I called his actions what I thought they were. I never called him a name. In fact, it was you who called me a name. Does that make you a name caller? Are you the Ken Silva of the CRN.info? Is it true you wanted to write for them and then they told you that they didn’t want your stuff which is what sent you to us? That is an honest question. Please show me the name I called him, and how it is that you didn’t call me a name.
Thanks

Amy
“Of course I believe in Hell, I can tell by what Rob says he believes in hell.” Yet earlier you said, “I have not heard him talk about Hell. I am not sure what he believe” there.” Which is it?
I can see where this would sound confusing but it is pretty simple. I will explain it this way; their are a lot of things I have never heard you say but by your actions and your passions I have enough information about you to assume what you believe and do not believe.
I have never heard Rob preach a message on Hell. I can tell by other things he has said that he believes in Hell. Believe it or not, the church does offer reading literature and I can read. Rather I hear him speak about it or not I can draw conclusions based on comments he makes as well as read things and assume he believes in Hell.
Amy I do not have to read long dialague’s between you and other people to know what you believe. In fact, you are pretty open about how you feel about Rob and Rick and others. Reading those debates are not going to show me what you believe all you want to show me is why you believe Rob is wrong. No offense, you do not go to Mars Hill, you have never had a personal conversation with Rob Bell, you have not read our church constituation; I simply do not care what your opinion is on Bell. You have no crediability. I don’t care about how you and Chris discussed a message Bell preached. You have no crediability to be discussing someone you know nothing about. It would like me finding out what church you go to and than telling you what your pastor and church believe when I am hundreds of miles nor th of you. It would make no sense, I do not go to your church.
So why don’t you answer my question. What makes you right?

Henry, I know my facts are not complete, that’s why I asked the questions. As for what you said being a metaphor, that won’t wash. A metaphor is something completely different. If you want to attack me or call me names, have at it. There was no “important theology” being discussed. You did the very thing you accused me of. I have an opinion on his activities and I expressed them, without calling him names.

Dictionary
metaphor |ˈmetəˌfôr; -fər| noun a figure of speech in which a word or phrase is applied to an object or action to which it is not literally applicable :

Joe,
Do you believe that Bell believes in a literal hell?

What I would really like to know is whether Bell is being defended on this site for being orthodox or whether his orthodoxy really doesn’t matterto most of you.

At this point I question his beliefs on 1)the nature of man 2)the nature of the fall 3) just what the atonement is 4) what the gospel is 5) what hell is

Often I have felt that he is being defended on this site as having an orthodox understanding of these things, but more and more I feel that the question isn’t about whether or not you think his beliefs are orthodox, but simply that he is being attacked and needs to be defended because he is a great guy who loves God.

It wouldn’t take that much to answer the question about literal hell. “Yes,” “no,” “I don’t know,” would do sufficiently.

You, for some reason, pointed out to Ken, that your previous comment about not wanting to get into protracted discussions was directed towards me. What does the direction of it matter? His assessment is correct.

Amy,
You are right I recently joined Mars Hill. What Rob Bell does is a very small part of the church, a very small part. The staff is huge, and the amount in attendance is astronomical. Joe and I are very involved even though we have only be their a dozen times. I am sorry listening to a Pod cast, reading Kens summaries, and a chapter here and their of his books does not even come close to showing the picture of what Mars is about.
Here is the bottom line. I think your interpretation of scripture is wrong. History is very important part of understanding the bible.
You said “If you don’t want me or others to do this, then maybe you can instruct Rob Bell to take himself off the internet, and quit selling his books and nooma products.”
This is perhaps the silliest argument I have ever heard! LOL Rob does not google his name nor does he waste his time defending himself.(yes I know that for a fact!) I defend him simply because I get tired of people critiquing him when they have no idea what they are talking about. He writes amazing books. I am not even going to touch on such a silly statement. Rob reaches a lot of people with his videos and his life. Because he offends the hyper religious people of our day who are envious of his life and ministry who have God fit into a tiny boxes is not his problem. (Jesus did not waste his time on these people in the Gospels either.) These are not the people Mars is trying to reach. Does that make sense?
What makes me right, or what makes Rob Bell right? Certainly not my saying “I am right” or Rob Bell’s saying “I am right.” Look at what scripture says and compare it to what is being said. Do you go beyond just reading a verse? There is so much more to understanding a passage of scripture than reading it. Do you take the time to do this? Do you take the time to understand the culture the bible was written in? Just wondering.

Phil, Excellent points all.

I would do anything for love…but I won’t do that. Took me right back to my teenage years

Bell doesn’t believe the word hell represents the lake of fire, he makes a difference between the two. One of the problems with Bell and others is that they come from orthodox backrounds, they know what people are wanting to know when they ask them about certain doctrines, but instead of saying “Yes, I believe all who die without Christ are tormented forever in a place some call hell” they become coy and somewhat mircurial.

They purposely do linguistic gymnastics instead of being clear to their orthodox audience. They rightly teach that you must to some degree take into consideration your audience when speaking so they can understand on their cultural level, but they refuse to put that principle into action when it comes to people like Ken or me. Why not just say it clearly to those of us who are stuck in the pre-modern context?

One of the reasons is that they don’t want to turn off their post-modern audience who loves to walk the mysterious path on almost all doctrines. I will never understand them because I think they’ve designed it that way.

Thank you for being honest, Phil. More transparent than Bell is sometimes. Let me be just as honest, respectfully.

It is your description and uncertainty about eternal punishment that constitutes what many of us consider part of the falling away. John 3:16 itself warns of perishing and Jesus gave many references about suffering that he never meant to describe people on the earth. The rich man in hell should be enough of a warning.

If there is a hell (as believed by orthodox) then it can never be moved to the back of the theological bus, some must be saved by fear (Jude). The dismantling or at least the minimization of the doctrine of eternal punishment is at the core of not only the softening of the gospel, but also minimizes the sufferings of the Savior on the cross.

I have heard and read Bell (as well as MacLaren and others) and they are not orthodox in their beliefs. If they are right, then Spurgeon, Wesley, and others have been wrong. And what of the millions that have come to Christ on a wrong and exaggerated presentation of hell, do their motives based on falsehood render their profession useless?

We are at a crossroads, either people like me are standing in the way of further emlightenment, or people like Bell are departing from the faith once delivered to the saints. We all must choose.

And it isn’t just the emergents, it is also the seeker/purpose crowd that have made the gospel into a self help earthly teaching that has little life changing and sacrificial impact on its adherants. Someone once said that unless a person forsakes all, he cannot be My disciple. How intransigent He once was.

At least you were honest, Phil.

The one broad stroke that I agree with as far as the “emergent” view is the leaving the “fire insurance” model and embracing the life changing model of regeneration. But I do not see the necessity of leaving the established doctrines of the faith as helpful, in fact they are dangerous.

As time goes by the judgment aspect of God’s nature will continue to dissipate until it morphs into universalism. Many corners of Christianity already toy with that idea, rendering the justice and punishment of God as unpalatable. If Bell and others unravel the edges, what will his grandchildren teach? Remember, he was raised in orthodox evangelicalism, what will preachers teach who are taught from birth under him and have no subliminal ties to orthodoxy? Look at the cross, what in God’s name was going on there if it wasn’t an eternal rescue of colossal proportions?

Was the cross just an avenue for kingdom building or universal kindness? Was it just to teach us to feed the poor? Or was the repulsive picture of a tortured, Sinless and Innocent Lamb, the mystery of the Incarnate God, the substitutionary payment for the infinite breach of the Father’s law of which we were so guilty?

My view of the cross is a fullfillment of the shadow called the Passover Lamb. The blood cries out on the doorposts of any repentant believer “Forgiven!”. There are many and varied repercussions that emenate from that magnificent event, but at the very zenith is the atoning rescue from the wrath of Almighty God. And it is that river from which all other tributaries flow.

Praise His Name!!

Rick,

“you do not have the facts. They did in fact post two of my articles.”

They didn’t post anything of yours at the old Slice. I personally did my former friend.

Amy,
Where does Bell say that Hell is “just” a place on earth. I would agree with his assertion that there are places and systems on earth that are under Satan’s control. I guess the logical outworking of what Bell is talking about would be to say that Hell is under Satan’s command while Heaven is under God’s. These two kingdoms are at war for now. One day the victory that Jesus won on the cross will be completely realized and the Kingdom of God will be completely manifest with Satan ultimately defeated. What actually happens to the souls in Hell seems to be the issue that isn’t exactly clear. Are they annihlated? Kept in eternal separation? I think that there has historically been some disagreement on this issue.

Rick,
I can’t downplay the price Christ paid at Calvary. It is essential. I think Penal Substitution is a very valid view of Jesus’ death and resurrection, but I think as a theory it does not tell the whole story. I think the “Christus Victor” model encompasses Penal Substitution, but also gives a much more balanced view. For one thing, the focus becomes the defeat of Satan, the author of sin, rather than individual sinners. I don’t think it is minimizing the seriousness of sin anyway, it is just striking it at it’s very root. I must admit, I hadn’t even given much thought to these different models until the last couple of years. When I started reading about the CV model, it was like a veil had been lifted from my eyes to some degree. It just put so many pieces together for me.

Ken, thank you. As for former, that is your perspective.

The Christus Victor view is inherant in the cross (crushing the serpant’s head), but the Passover Lamb, as modeled in the first communion, is the core of the cross from the lips of our Lord. This is my body, this is my blood, GIVEN FOR YOU. He surely was victorious, but He came TO SEEK AND TO SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST. The defeat of Satan is contained in the freeing of his captives. The victory is in the church, his body, who have entered into His victory over death by faith.

I have heard some who make much of this CV theology, but in my view it focuses on good verses evil rather than REDEMPTION which is not only at the very heart of the cross, IT IS THE CROSS!! Redemption is victory as the prisoners of war are not only released, but brought back from the dead to be living testimonies of the lamb’s victory. There is no victory, in fact no reason, for the cross were it not for us. The wages – sin, the gift – eternal life. If God wanted to defeat Satan He only had to speak a word (one little word will fell them) but if wanted us He had to die. Why do many want to turn away from that view and turn to something else. Has the cross become stale, or are we wary of being too indebted to the Master?

Oh no, never let my spirit see anything but my Savior’s redemptive love for me on that tree. He did not need that cross to be a Victor, He has always been a Victor from the beginning. He was a Victor in Bethlehem, a Victor in Capernaum, a Victor in Galilee, a Victor in Jerusalem. He came as a Victor, He did not earn that title on the cross. No, the cross made ME a victor in Him.

So underserving…

Rick,
CV theology is not just about good verses evil, but about Redemption and Restoration. It is about Jesus destroying Sin and all the works of the devil.

In 1 John 3:8 it says,

“He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work.”

I think “destroying the devil’s work” that implies all that you stated. The main danger in seeing the cross as just dealing with personal sin is that we miss out on the grander cosmic victory that was won, and in a sense make Christianity all about us. I don’t necessarily think it’s something to argue about, to me the CV just seems a bit more robust.

Amy,
When Bell says “Hell on earth” don’t you think that most people have an idea of what “Hell” means? I mean you could ask almost any person on the street what comes to mind when they hear that word, and they would probably describe something similar to what’s described in Dante’s “Inferno”. It’s not like some obscure concept. Bell is only expanding it.

I actually see Bell being influenced very much by Greg Boyd’s (and, yes, I know his name is mud to Calvinists) writings. If you have ever read anything by Boyd, you would probably see a lot of the common threads. To me, it is not a big leap to say if there is a domain where Satan is ruling, it makes no difference whether it is on earth or not. It seems like if a person is in Hell now, they would continue on after death. I can’t speak for Bell, but based on what I’ve read, it seems to be the outworking of his theology.

Amy,

Thanks for trying to get people to see the real problem with Rob’s butchering of the hell passage in Matthew. For some reason, noboy really wants to address that text and how exactly Rob did harm to it.

Phil,
Just curious, do you know if the CV view is what underlies some of the AOG’s emphasis on authority over Satan?

Erica,
Regarding your comments on dialogue, have you “dialogued” with Rob Bell about his beliefs? If not, how can you be sure what he really believes?

Also, if Joe supports you in these remarks about dialogue, then may I suggest that, to be consistent there should be no criticism on this site of anyone with whom dialogue has not taken place, since a person’s beliefs can not be really understood without dialogue. For starters, I imagine that none of you have had much, if any, personal dialogue with John MacArthur about his beliefs – so maybe his beliefs shouldn’t be discussed. Also, I could, if I had the time and felt like it was a worthy use of my time (highly unlikely) come up with numerous comments about the lack of TRUE dialogue with CERTAIN people, who will remain unnamed. If there’s no true dialogue, maybe their beliefs shouldn’t be criticized either? Just a suggestion . . .

And rather than all of this discussion on what gives a person the right to look at, question, a teacher’s beliefs, it would have been much more beneficial to use the time to dialogue nicely with Clearly about his article.

Clearly,
You’re welcome.

Amy,
I should have included a qualifier in my statement about a person continuing on in Hell after death. I should have said unless a person enter into a relationship with Christ, he or she would continue living in Hell after death. If a person can’t be changed, I believe we would all be in a horrible spot. Thankfully, Christ is still saving and delivering people.

Erica,
I was thinking last night about how I continue to be confused by statements from you that say different things, statements such as

” I do not have time to sit down and read debates you have with other people. Especially when it seems you do not know what you are talking about concerning Bell.”

and “You write on here and have been in various discussion for months and months. Wether I comment or not, which I often don’t, I still read it all amost every day! I have been reading this site since September. I read what you write and I dialogue with you back and forth some time. ”

Maybe in your mind those things are both true. In my mind, they aren’t, and honestly it just seems like you, intentionally or not, present whatever truth helps you support the argument of the moment.

Joe,
Rules/expectations about how people should interact are stated on this site, and negative comments are made when some people don’t follow those rules. Rules/expectations such as discussing issues instead of dodging them, rules about talking nicely, with respect, etc. Yet there is a double standard about how those expectations are applied.

I looked again at your response to Clearly after he called Erica’s response “harsh.” Erica said, “All you have proved is that you have failed to read the gospel’s.” Clearly wrote back and said, “I have not read the gospels? That is a bit harsh”

Clearly’s response is quite restrained. If Erica said to me that I had failed to read the gospel’s, I would most likely simply have said that that was a lie. Some people would have just said, “Erica, you’re a liar.” Others might have jumped all over her. Yet Clearly settled for “That is a bit harsh.”

Your incredible response to him (June 10, 2007, 8:05) needed to be and was addressed by Henry and others. Instead of receiving admonitions you jumped into semantics about “name-calling.”

Some people have excellent reasons for hiding their identity on the internet. You don’t know those reasons, and I can’t see how it’s your place to judge, especially when a person is trying to do responsible research and make responsible presentations.

Now that it is clear that you do have interaction with Rob Bell. I would hope that you could provide some specific answers to questions. But I think that many people who might want to ask you questions simply won’t. First of all, they will probably think that you won’t address the questions. Secondly, they will feel that they very well might be attacked by you.

Your attitudes and actions don’t match someone who is really concerned about trying to defend an innocent person from false accusations. Does Rob Bell know that you in a sense “represent” him? Does he ever read this blog? If so, do you think that he would want you representing him?

Joe, who is a member of Rob Bell’s church, says: “I just don’t think there is a whole lot to be gained from discussion on what [Rob Bell] does or does not believe… I doubt very much he cares one iota what you or Ken Silva or anyone else in your camp thinks.”

I heartily agree! So why bother writing posts on this site about what I say concerning him? Why not just let me vanish into my anonimity?

Again Joe says: “When Jesus stood before his accusers as an innocent man, he did not answer their false accusations.”

Then no one should have a problem with me in this regard either.

Amy,
I simply do not remember every conversation I read nor do I want to go back and re-read them. I am not sure how this is lying.
Just remember, whether or not someone chooses to disguise their name, with a ISP address you can find out all you want to know about the person. If you don’t want people to know who you are than stay off the internet!
I do find it comical that you defend Ken and Ingrids statements about Rob and others but I can not make an observation about clearly not understanding the gospels. That seems inconsistent.
Rob does not want me defending him. Joe has asked me to stop defending him. I will honor that request.
Ken,
What you guys say goes beyond defending Rob. It is more about calling you out on your lies and inconsistencies. Realistically you all can say whatever you want. Ten to twelve thousand people show up there every week! That speaks for itself.

Erica,
Saying “All you have proved is that you have failed to read the gospel’s” is not the same as making “an observation about clearly not understanding the gospels.”

Erica, the issue isn’t whether or not you remember what you’ve written, the issue is how you can say different things and they can both be true. If you say something once, then realize it wasn’t true, and want to retract it fine. But saying different things and trying to justify them or make them make some kind of sense in various ways is a form of communication that I don’t know how to handle.

Joe,
You said, “I don’t beleive you or Ken are interested at all in hearing anything about Rob for any reason other than attacking him. ”

Ken can answer for himself. However, my two cents: I think you are wrong about him. I think he cares about people who he thinks Bell is leading astray and I think he cares about obeying what he believes God has told him to do.

As for me, you are simply dead wrong. I would never put as much time/energy as I have into trying to discern what ANYONE believes simply because I wanted to attack them. I see many people being led astray by false teachers – not just here in America, but overseas. If there is anything I can do to be knowledgeable about the teachings of a teacher who may be a false teacher, to keep someone from falling into that teaching, I will do it.

Ok

Oh and far as Amy is concerned, she makes arguments with Christian grace and humility. She is an example for all who post — thanks Amy!

Clearly, I am going to say this again. One of the things I hate about the internet is that anyone can say anything about anyone and there is no responsibility. No accountability. For whatever reason, you have chosen to use a pen name (in my opinion hiding) when you write out well thought out remarks (or attacks, whichever word you like) against Rob. I don’t care if you’re writing about Rob or Rick Warren, or John MacArthur, or George Bush for that matter. The very fact that you are not willing to use your real identity seems cowardly to me. In that sense, it reminds me of the worst that the internet has to offer. Long before I ever met you, I had these thoughts. I think it is true of people who write things I agree with. In fact, I refuse to link to people I agree with if they don’t use their name. Here’s a link, check out the date:

http://www.joemartino.name/metamorphic/2007/05/on_anonymous_bl.html

 Can I have ice cream with that cake?

Amy said: “I think he [Ken] cares about people who he thinks Bell is leading astray and I think he cares about obeying what he believes God has told him to do.”

You are correct.

Joe said: “I don’t beleive you or Ken are interested at all in hearing anything about Rob for any reason other than attacking him.”

And I don’t believe you are interested at all in hearing anything about Rob which is critical but rather simply jump to his defense. You are actually a mirror opposite of what you say I am. Just want to make sure you understand where you are Joe. One of us will be vindicated one day. I can live with that.

Ditto Joe.

I agree with you Rick! I don’t know about you but my mom and I were having a conversation last night about how I do not have some of the beliefs I once did. I would not consider myself emergent either. I am some were in between.
I have no problem dicussing a belief system. I am just done hearing attacks on people and trying to defend them.
Rick, I would be more than willing to discuss any biblical topic and give my opinion.
You are funny! Thanks for lightening up the atmosphere! I got a good laugh!

Hey Joe…uh, not the guy Jimi Hendrix sang about…it makes sense to me. Uh-oh, did we just agree on something? That doesn’t mean the End has come, does it?

OK Amy, you lost me. What is tolling of the bells? Let us take one topic at a time. Elaborate on the tolling of the bells or is it some euphemism?

It’s either a case of my being hit by too many paint balls, or, more likely, a reference to John Donnes “For whom the bell tolls.”

Tolling of the bells equal death.

Simply my way of asking what was wrong, in the first place, with discussing whether or not Bell handled the topic of hell scripturally in the passage in Sex God.

amy,

You asked albeit hypothetically: “Is Bell teaching that man isn’t truly fallen?” No, Bell teaches that man WAS fallen but that at the Cross (consistent with moral influence theory) ALL men were forgiven. So, our job as Christians is to help them see their new reality as we attempt to convince them to acept that forgiveness.

This is the underlying principle in the idea of making people “Christ-followers.” Get them to follow the “way of Jesus” because they will then accept His blanket forgiveness. This is why Bell can say there are “forgiven people” in Hell because in his false view of the atonement ALL mankind is ALREADY forgiven. I pray this helps.

Ken,
Thanks.

Ken and/or Rick,
I wonder if you could help me understand something. Is there a name for the following belief system or is it just a collection of ideas from different sources? Could they simply be identified as “Christian existentialism?” I’ve looked up Christian existentialism and trying to define it is difficult.

Here’s the “system:”
1)The Spirit is waiting to enter people.
2) When their walls come down, the Spirit will come in.
3) They don’t need to “believe in Jesus” (you can be a non-believing Jew, for example) HOWEVER
4)Jesus death on the cross is what made it possible for the Spirit to come into people.
5)Also, when a person “breathes in” (with some kind of faith attached, perhaps?) they are breathing in the Spirit, because the Spirit is in the air we breathe.

I “met” these beliefs in a person before I heard of Rob Bell. But when I first heard an excerpt from Bell’s “breathing” teaching, I wondered if Bell had been influenced directly or indirectly by the same person (whom I’ll call “Smith”) who influenced the person who had these beliefs.I don’t know for sure if all of the above beliefs fully represent the beliefs of “Smith” – although point 5 is specifically stated in a book he wrote. The person who has the beliefs identifies those beliefs as “Christian Existentialism.”

“Smith” is a man who was very influential in the development of one of the programs of a school that Bell attended.

I wondered if Bell had had some kind of connection with the teachings of Smith before I realized that Bell had gone to that school where he was influential, because Smith’s “breathing” teaching (point 5) seemed so similar to what Bell was saying.

Sorry this sounds so confusing, even to me. Hope you can sort it out.

Amy,
What of Bell’s teachings are you referring to? I’ve never heard Bell talk about anything similar to this at all. Are you talking about the Nooma #14, Breathe, DVD?

Ken,

“As humbly as I know how as a pastor-teacher”

LOL!

iggy

Ken,

the phrase just sounds like you are saying, “as much as I can I will humble myself to your lowly position and explain this to you”… it just all seems to negate the “humbly” in the sentence.

Have a great weekend in the Lord!
iggy