Ingrid has decided to go after Christian singles dances. Like the old joke goes, “Why don’t Baptists like sex? Because it might lead to dancing.”
Every year my young adults ministry puts on a Boston Harbor boat cruise and we hire a Christian DJ. People dress nicer then usual and we just have a good time. No alcohol is served. There is mostly secular music. And we dance. However, nothing inappropriate happens (or has happened) and if it did, we as leaders would step in.
I grew up in a Christian home and was not allowed to listen to secular music. I now listen to some secular music. I’m not interested in Fergie and our boat cruise wouldn’t play her music. There are songs/musicians I choose not to listen to. Like movies, I think music is a decision of conscience. What do you think?
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I don’t know if really want to see most Baptists dancing. Most of them I know have a hard enough time clapping on the “2″ and the “4″.
On the post at slice: I hate that the automatic assumption is that it would just be the radio turned on to whatever without any selectivness. I tried to point out that fact, got the first comment through, but then my subsquent comments blocked so it looked like they had a trump card comment that shut me up. So frustraiting..
On music in general: my rule of thumb on this one is knowing yourself, what music gets you to the wrong places, what music is catchy with lyrics you’re not really up for singing yourself etc. Just listen to music with your mind on rather then passivly and I doubt there’s much trouble in it.
I know for some people when they become a Christian they have to leave behind stuff others don’t, I knew this one guy that for him harder music was tied up so much in the sin he was stuck in that he had to leave it altogether no matter what the lyrics where. What I respected was that he knew this was somehting he had to do himself but didn’t assume all Christians had to do the same. I get so frustraited when people take their own faith story and try to make it the rule for everyone.
Matt,
What is “a decision of conscience?”
Amy-
I realize more conservative Christians think U2 is bad to listen to. I don’t have a problem with U2 and really enjoy Bono and Co. Is Bono a Christian? Don’t know. I haven’t heard everything they’ve done but from what I’ve heard, you won’t sell your soul to the devil by listening to them.
However, if you think listening to music that doesn’t always mention Jesus, then you can choose to not listen to U2. That’s your choice, though.
Better to avoid it, especially singles. If you are normal it might arouse in you desires you cannot righteously fullfill.
Appearance…
Henry- are you being sarcastic?
Henry, I often wonder how the same denomination could have ordained the both of us
Joe – They probably had pity on me while they recognized your spiritual prowess.
So if you feel about dancing as I do you shouldn’t be ordained? Of course you never addressed the issue, just mused about my ordaination which in my circle never asked about dancing, maybe your counsel was more thorough.
There’s different forms of dancing. My gf and I, on the last boat cruise, just did goofy dances that we made up. We also took salsa dancing classes this past spring. Not sure how these could cause you to stumble, but if they do, then stop.
There are forms of inappropriate dancing, aka dirty dancing. But I’m not married and my gf would be very uncomfortable with that, so I don’t do it.
Is this about dancing our music? Music is the only art form that Christians label “secular” and “Christian”. Imagine going to see a Picaso exhibit and saying “I can’t go, it’s secular painting”. Maybe we should have a “Christian” section at the movie theatres like we do in the Best Buy CD section. Music is music. Like any other art form, listen to the lyrics and decide if its effects on you are going to be less than Christ like.
I am so tried of music having to be classified as either or. I know people who make music that aren’t followers of Christ, but their music connects with me on an entertainment level. Most of the Jazz in my collection comes from non-believers. I don’t think that the devil has my soul because I listen to it.
LOL, I was trying to say that it amazes me that you and I are so far apart. My ordination wasn’t all that thorough to be honest. If I had known this was an issue of angst for you as evidenced by your sarcasm I would have not brought it up. Forgive my attempt at some humor.
So why do “secular” books, shows, regularly present dancing as if it is a provocative thing, yet some Christians seem to go out of their way to present it as if there couldn’t possibly be anything wrong with it?
I reading the Slice post, a couple of things came to mind.
First, I think it is very strange for a church to host a singles dance and that the singles pay $5 to get in.
Second, I can’t imagine why Ingrid chooses to compare Fergie lyrics with an old hymn, other than the huge shock value that comes from a false dichotomy. There are secular songs with valuable lyrics. Yet she chose Fergie.
But, stodgy old me: I think singles dances held in and sponsored by a church is unsettling. I know the church is the body and not the building and all that, but the point of holding a singles event like that isn’t just so married people don’t mix with the singles, but so that singles can meet. Not every single is doing goofy dances. Some are checking out the fronts and backs of each other whilst shakin’ it on the dance floor. The lack of inappropriate behavior doesn’t mean the thought isn’t there, and, as we think it in our heart, so it is.
On the other hand, I love waltzing and some of the old styles of dance. Perhaps I’m just a huge, hypocritical dork. There seems to be a line in there somewhere, where I will not cross, but I can’t put my finger on it yet…
Could you please provide evidence that secular media presents dances as provocative? Couldn’t you say the same thing about ballet?
Singles or married don’t need music or dance to check each others fronts or backs. Not sure what that has to do with anything.
I think Ingrid’s biggest beef is that this type of thing will attract minorities to church…and we all know how much she LOOOOOVES minorities!
Really though, I see nothing wrong with a nice singles event/dance that is kept in check and done in good taste. There’s lots of great music out there that is non-offensive AND written after the 12th century. Imagine that.
It may not be conscious or even overt…BUT the deep ambivalence over certain styles of music do have more to do with cultural animosities of race than even fundamentalists realize.
I remember being told that singing that did not hit evenly on each succesive note, but slurred or slided from note to note was “sensual” in and of itself. This “sliding” is called “phrasing” and is very prominent in styles that were birthed in the black community…a community that generated much of the foundation of our popular music in this country.
Before it was called “sensual” it was called “n-word” music…
I’m not making any assumptions about the current motivations of today’s fundamentalists…but the cultural roots of certain pet issues are ironic, considering the incessant fund/neo-fund whining about “cultural compromise”.
Does it concern anyone how Ingrid is now just perusing the internet for inappropriate church websites? They used to argue that the churches they attacked had influence beyond their small communities. Now they are attacking First Baptist Small Town USA. It feel bad for these pastors that don’t see this coming and don’t know how to deal with global criticism.
AN – there is no Scriptural parameters for musical styles and for that stand I was roundly dismissed in the Sclice crowd. But as far as dancing, singles dancing body to body usually invite some sensual arousement, at least it did when I was young. You may disagree with that, but any fair minded Christian can understand why some would feel that way.
Also I would like to ask a question. I have never been to a Christian dance(other than Jewish praise dances which I have even participated in so my dinosaur moniker might now be tarnished), do they dance to Christian music or secular or both?
Also, if you are married can you dance with someone else. Just some questions from a novice.
Henry-
We actually mostly dance to secular music. And it’s not body to body, if that makes any sense. We are standing a little less then 2 feet away from each other. There aren’t really any slow dances, which is what body to body would be, I guess.
It wouldn’t be appropriate for someone to “grind” (another kind of close dance). We’d all look at them funny.
This is a once a year thing. I actually don’t like dancing. I dance for about 20 minutes, go downstairs and eat snacks and talk with friends the rest of the time.
Matt – it surely isn’t the unpardonable sin and I think if you are going to do it it should be as you have outlined. I have danced in the aisle during some church services in worship and joy before my Lord. I would believe many would castigate me for that but I wasn’t attempting to gain the applause of men.
Thank you for answering my questions. See you at the annual fox trot! (humor)
“I haven’t heard everything they’ve done but from what I’ve heard, you won’t sell your soul to the devil by listening to them.”
Have you ever read this article? http://www.relevantmagazine.com/pc_article.php?id=7089
Matt,
You asked, “Could you please provide evidence that secular media presents dances as provocative? Couldn’t you say the same thing about ballet?”
I find it hard to believe that you’d ask for evidence. I actually read very few current secular books and have had to stop reading most of the “innocent looking”ones I’ve checked out from the library the last few years. I also don’t watch many movies, AND I don’t have a television . . . I can say with a lot of confidence that I’m much less exposed to secular entertainment than you are.
But even with that extremely limited exposure I’ve read/seen enough to see that dancing is often presented as provocative. Read articles in magazines, listen to the commentaries on dancing . . . . I don’t understand how you can ask me for evidence. And yes, some ballet is provocative.
“Singles or married don’t need music or dance to check each others fronts or backs. Not sure what that has to do with anything” They don’t need it, sure, but shaking it around surely draws attention to it doesn’t it.
I don’t want to get into a big discussion on this, but one more remark: I HATE how little girls are being taught to dress seductively and perform dances that must have many of the same moves as women who perform for men to drool over. I HATE how cheerleaders at Christian schools dress immodestly and perform provocative moves just because “cheerleading” somehow redefines immodesty.
Once again Amy…
“I also don’t watch many movies, AND I don’t have a television . . . I can say with a lot of confidence that I’m much less exposed to secular entertainment than you are.”
Yet you make difinitive statements on subjects which you are barely exposed to. This is a growing and concerning trend among those who associate themselves with the discernment watchbloggies.
Mike Corley just did a great interview with Mark Driscoll, “the cussing pastor”. GREAT interview! Here is a comment left by one of Corley’s listeners:
“I really thought that he was going about preaching sermons and cussing through them entirely. I am glad to hear that is not the case. I have had to repent because I jumped to conclusions about him before I had even heard him speak. I heard other prominent men of God tear into him over being called the “cussing pastor.†I am glad the conversation took place.”
This is exactly what happens when we assume, go on the words of Ken Silva alone, or do not read up on the subject.
Nathan said, quoting me, “I also don’t watch many movies, AND I don’t have a television . . . I can say with a lot of confidence that I’m much less exposed to secular entertainment than you are.â€
Yet you make difinitive statements on subjects which you are barely exposed to. This is a growing and concerning trend among those who associate themselves with the discernment watchbloggies.”
The subjects I am “barely exposed to” through entertainment are subjects that I am barely exposed through entertainment because I believe that the Holy Spirit lives in me and when He brings scriptures to my mind when I am reading something that is, for example, a guy describing ways that a girls dancing turns him on, I choose to set the book aside. And if I don’t obey that still small voice then I realize that I have grieved the Holy Spirit.
Who is most capable of judging the temperature of water being heated, Nathan, the frog sitting in the slowly warming pot or the frog jumping into the pot from the cold pond?
I choose not to fill my mind with trash because I know that human nature slowly adapts to its surroundings.
And by the way, if you really think that some kind of experience is required to make definitive statements on good and evil, I could make plenty of definitive statements based on real life “rubbish.”
Amy,
I think it is wonderful that you put the book down. I do the same all the time. However, I don’t think that we are the ones that should make definitive statements about what society thinks.
By the way, neither frog is qualified. one is too far removed and the other is in the middle of it.
Nathan,
Too be less removed would require disobedience on my part.
“However, I don’t think that we are the ones that should make definitive statements about what society thinks.”
I don’t get it. Can we make “undefinitive” statements, or no statements, or . . . just what are you saying?
My biggest problem with Ingrid on this is that she assumes and speculate’s ” I’m sure this bunch at Living Word Bible Church would find it highly danceable.”
This is just bad and poor reporting. I actually had to read the artilce slowly twice because I though the church was playing Fergie. I was at a loss at first how a church was promoting a no talent pole dancer (ie Brittany Spears type) at a singles dance.
I could find no proof of this from the churches website. So shame on Ingrid for doing such a poor inacurate job on reporting the truth.
The biggest problem I have with this church (from being on their website) is that they promote the fairy godmother of the Word faith Movement Marylin Hickey who you can buy magic oils from for a love gift of 20.00 dollars.
Much more harm to the soul I would say then some Christian singles getting together to perhaps do the cha-cha.
When reporting about other Christians where are we given the liberty to bend what really goes on at a event?
I’d rather hear the truth so I can come to a logical conclusion instead of assumptions.
And you know what happens when you assume.
peace
Tim
Tim,
Irony impaired people shouldn’t be allowed access to the internet. It is a sad sign of the times and sign of today’s minds that ironic humor is believed to be “reporting”. You had to know she was joking. Also, you are something of a two-face aren’t you? I’ve seen your computer keyboard work both ways on Slice and CRN. Make up your mind who you are. A double-minded man is unstable in all of his ways and you’re making some of us dizzy.
Try as I may, I still can’t get my mind wrapped around the whole secular music/dancing issue.
You’re at a dance, and a great old Motown song gets played. Now according to Ingrid, if you move in time with the music, (there’s that pesky booty shakin’ again) you’re somehow sliding into the carnal. or flesh, or whatever over the top language she likes to use….or you find yourself at a summer concert, and there’s a great Glenn Miller tribute band just cookin’ away on a version of “In the Mood”. With all your focus and concentration, you stand perfectly still. No clapping, finger snapping, and God forbid, no hip swaying. Do you then say to yourself, “I’m a good Christian because any motion related to music might be misconstrued by God as enjoying something really harmless and perfectly normal.”
And as for all those fronts and backs…moving or stationary…c’mon, they’re just body parts. GET OVER IT!