It’s sad that all of this has come to this type of post but I feel it’s time to put people’s writings out in the open. For months now many here have enjoyed the input of Henry Rick Frueh. Whether or not I am one of those people is irrelevant for this post. What I want to address is Henry’s accusation against me that I called Clearly a name. First I will quote my comment, then I will quote Henry’s. I will add emphasis to Henry’s but the original quote will remain completely intact in the original thread which can be found here.

First my quote:

Clearly, your actions here represent some of the worst aspects of the internet. The depth of depravity is disgusting. You hide behind secrecy and attack another man. On top of that you make sweeping statements and then finish with, “I’m done here.” Your actions smack of cowardice. They stink of a pride that can only be fostered in the professional clergy. You say you invite analysis of you but then when Erica did it you accused her of being harsh. That reeks of hypocrisy. I won’t even get into the whole “one chapter’s good enough” debate.
My name’s out there, Rob’s name is attached to his works. Your’s is the only one hidden. Why is that?
. As Nathan said, your assertions are laughable. You clearly demonstrate one of the best reasons to stay away from the internet.
As for your actions, perhaps you missed Jesus’ words in Matthew 9

But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’ For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.”

Peace to you and yours

Now, I went through and highlighted every reference to Clearly. It is plainly visible that each sentence is directed towards his actions. This is not name calling. This is pointing out error in one’s actions. No different than saying to someone, “that’s a lie.” Name calling would be saying, “You are a liar!” As you can see, there is a vast difference there. One is attacking actions the other is attacking the person. Or as Henry put it, Name calling.

Now, let’s look at Henry’s comment to me. He said,

Joe – you are the Ken Silva from another perspective. A brother gracefully bows out and you attack him. You are not an open emerging believer, you are an argumentative judge who is just waiting to verbally attack some one. You should honestly review your comment tone, this guy “Clearly” engaged in a good dialogue and because he leaves you call him a coward.

Wow, you are a name caller just like a lot from the other side that you despise. Good Christian behavior and a good example for some of the younger believers..

Self righteous tone aside let’s break this down. Now, as I said, I went through and highlighted the sentence structure in Henry’s comment. Repeatedly he says, Joe you are… . It seems to me that Henry is the one calling the names. He called me

1. Ken Silva from another perspective,

2. An argumentative judge and

3. a name caller

Henry here’s a tip; if you are going to accuse someone of calling names, have your facts lined up. Oh and don’t call them names. It kind of kills your credibility. You may not agree with what I said about Clearly, you may think I was wrong or even mean. But each thing I confronted was an action not his person. There’s a huge difference between the two.

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20 Comments(+Add)

1   robbymac    http://www.robbymac.org
June 10th, 2007 at 11:34 pm

Two things pop to mind:

(A) If you said that something I had written “smack(ed) of cowardice”, I would conclude that you were calling me a coward. It’s like when Chris P accused me of having an “universalistic” mindset (which I don’t), but denied calling me a “universalist”. It’s legalistic wrangling over word tenses — this doesn’t change the fact that only cowards show cowardice.

(B) I’m disappointed in how Rick chose to word his response to you, but is creating a separate blog post to “expose” him really necessary? “If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.” (Galatians 5:15)

Remember when Gandalf said “Those who study evil, are studied by evil”? It would be a shame for this site to adopt the same attitude and approach of the pit-weiner-dogs that it was originally meant to correct.

2   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 7:35 am

Robby, I disagree. I would have to admit I have a “Calvinistic” bend even though I am not a Calvinist, per se. (I also have been accused of having a Universilist mindset–which I was true) But even beyond that, we have to be able to address actions. I’ll go back to the Lie/liar comparison. If my daughter tells me something that is a lie, I can say to her “that is a lie” which is worlds apart from calling her a “liar.” Words matter. Even brave men do cowardly things once in a while. It’s human nature. Tenses matter.
So you and I will have to agree to disagree on that. As for the post on Rick, I don’t see all that much difference between him and the other stuff written about on this site. So, yeah, I guess a blog post was necessary.

3   Henry (Rick) Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
June 11th, 2007 at 7:37 am

Joe, do you feel better? You have proven yourself faultless in it all. The time some will spend to defend themselves, breathtaking. I reiterate, Clearly engaged in a respectful dialogue and when he felt it was over he gracefully bowed out.

About the name thing, how do we know that the names we post are accurate? They are irrelevant. The issues about some of the theology that Bell teaches was an important issue, but now the issue is me or Clearly. I am an easy target, you haven’t even scratched the surface of my shortcomings.

4   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 7:43 am

Henry,
You still haven’t answered my question. Or for that matter Marks. I wonder how much of this has to do with the scampering you did when my wife and you were involved in a “serious Theological” debate.
I’m sure we could make a list of my shortcomings as well, they are far and ranging. My issue with Clearly isn’t just his leaving. There were a few other issues addressed there as well.
So Henry, will you at least answer Mark’s question?

5   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 7:45 am

And please explain how what you said was metaphoric, if you wouldn’t mind.

6   Henry (Rick) Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
June 11th, 2007 at 7:57 am

Joe – you are obsessed. Let it go. This has nothing to do with your wife for goodness sakes. There again, obsessed. And when you say that there were no serious issues being discussed, well, that is where many of us are shocked. We think they are very serious issues. You seem to be the only contributor here that often drifts from substantive discussions into personal interactions.

Here is some post titles in the future:

Rick Frueh (or Henry whatever his real name is) refuses to answer questions posed to him.

Rick Frueh, the real issue!

As for what you called Clearly, although couched as adjectives, you said he was hypocritical (reeks), prideful, laughable, cowardice, and you concluded by saying that his perspective and presentation was a good reason to avoid the internet completely. No, you didn’t call him anything, Joe.

7   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 8:05 am

Henry, hows this, “you lied!” You said one thing and then tried to pass it off as a metaphor! Now, if I was writing in your style I might say, “Good Christian behavior and a good example for some of the younger believers.. ” BTW, direct quote there. As for getting into “personal interactions” have you read the comment section.
Clearly did things that I thought were wrong I stated my peace. You stated yours about my actions. I just want to hear how this was a “metaphor.”

8   Henry (Rick) Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
June 11th, 2007 at 8:10 am

You are correct, it was a simile.

9   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 8:15 am

Haha, that’s the best answer! I don’t know how to make my comment do French so “Touche” Henry, Touche. I still think there is less than complete honesty there but who will ever know?
BTW, I commented to you over at Clearly’s page and I meant all of that so….

10   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
June 11th, 2007 at 10:21 am

Can we stop arguing amongst ourselves and get back to the more important fronts?

11   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 10:24 am

Nathan, I think we have…a little while a go

12   Houston John    
June 11th, 2007 at 12:15 pm

How ’bout them Astros?

13   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 12:19 pm

Do you think Kobe will be moving up to AAA this year? I’ve not heard if he’s doing well or not.

14   Houston John    
June 11th, 2007 at 1:10 pm

It was a metaphor :-)

15   Chris P.    
June 11th, 2007 at 1:11 pm

Since my name was invoked for no reason by my “buddy” Robbymac, I thought I would weigh in.

Gandalf?? lol I would expect nothing less.
What this post and comments exposes is that fact that this blog serves no useful function at all; “pit-wiener-dogs”, what a funny guy.
I was more troubled by Robby’s comment, a few posts back, on the justifiable banning of chick tracts as hate literature.
Only in Canada, eh?

Btw,I hate chick tracts.

16   Henry (Rick) Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
June 11th, 2007 at 2:16 pm

It was a simile, I should have said “Your comments are like Ken’s” or “as combative as Ken’s” .

I just left out the word like or as. English 101, my bad!

17   Ken Silva    http://www.apprising.org
June 11th, 2007 at 4:07 pm

Yeah, Ken’s a reeeeaaaallllyyyy bad man! ;-)

18   clearly    http://seeingclearly.wordpress.com
June 11th, 2007 at 6:08 pm

I think something that I said was taken incorrectly and this might be the whole problem here. Joe says, that I accused Erica of being harsh. I am sure Erica is a big girl and can handle much more than my saying that she was being harsh.

Seriously, Joe, you can’t expect me to believe that you can actually keep me as a person seperate from my actions. I think Jesus was pretty clear that what is on the inside manifests itself in actions. So, if my actions were prideful and all the other stuff you said they were, then that is what I am. Joe, I have no problems with that. I haven’t reached a place where I don’t need to grow and confess sin in my own life. Thanks for reminding me to be meek and humble.

But let me say this to whoever started this post:

This whole post is absolutely rediculous! I think you should go down to the local elementary school and volunteer to be a monitor during play time.

19   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 7:27 pm

Well, Clearly you are entitled to that opinion. You are correct in one area, we are far apart when it comes to actions and a person. Actions have to be addressed. This kind of post has happened to other people here (namely Ken and Chris P) where their comments have been made into a post. I believe that you can say someone’s actions are a certain thing without calling that person a certain thing (see illustration on honesty). This post helped Henry and I to discourse and we did it in a public manner. That’s OK, too.

20   I can See Clearly now, the rain is gone...    http://joemartino.name
June 11th, 2007 at 7:32 pm

Oh and Clearly, my post had/has nothing to do with Erica. I was just pointing out an inconsistency in what I believed I saw from what you said and did. That’s all.