For Julie, A Question of Scripture. What Does I Samuel 16:14 Mean?
11
Jun
Julie has brought up a great question on a verse in I Samuel. She suggested that it would be good to have a thread where we could discuss a Bible verse. I have copied the format from her Blog. So have it people. She asks some great questions. Where it says, “My Thoughts” it should be understood that those are her thoughts.
Today’s Discussion: 1 Samuel 16:14:
Now the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD terrorized him.
My thoughts/questions:
- I understand the Spirit of the Lord departing from someone, and even hardening a heart (Pharaoh).
- I do not understand an evil spirit coming from the Lord.
- I was under the (evidently mistaken) impression from other verses in the Bible that nothing evil could come from God.
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16 Comments(+Add)
Julie, thanks so much for this idea. The question of God “sending” evil spirits is one my bible study group has kicked around several times in the last year. Other than a pat answer that God does things for his own glory, we haven’t really worked it out. I look forward to reading the comments.
II Thess.2:11 – And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion that they should believe a lie.
Perhaps the word evil is defined as that which punishes. Remember, God created evil (Isaiah) and He also made hell. On a side not, the Scripture above is one of many that disproves Calvinism. If a depraved person is already unalterably depraved without any hope of trusting God, why would God have to send them strong delusion? They are already deluded and in the grips of a lie.
Happy Trails brother Calvin!
Rick,
I think you are on to the right idea…
I see it more as God sending a troubling spirit… turning Saul over to his own depravity. This opens one to evil. In that way I see that Saul once turned over to his own depravity, was sent an evil spirit to torment him. This also reminds me a bit of Paul stating that the man in Corinth should “hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. ” The difference (at least to me) was that Saul had the Holy Spirit taken away and the man in Corinth did not…
Also, God rose up the Babylonians to chastise Israel in their unbelief… or more specifically because they did not observe Jubilee… in that God holds the reigns as to how far evil can go, but will use them if it fits His will and plan. God warned the Hebrews that if they did not do as He stated they would be punished… thank God today we are under Grace through Jesus Christ and not under the Law!
On the Happy Trails note… I read in Romans chapter on that God “gave them over to a depraved mind” which implies that they did not have a depraved mind at one point… that they could see God in His creation, but CHOSE to worship created things instead of the Creator… if one is “totally depraved” there is no choice nor is there any need to “turn them over to a depraved mind” that they already would have…
BLessings,
iggy
Iggy, what is the difference between an “evil” and a “troubling” spirit?
1 Sam 16:14 speaks of two spirits the Ruach Ha Kodesh, i.e. the Holy Spirit and the ruach ra’ra’ah, describing an evil, bad, distressing spirit. The term “from the Lord” means quite literally breathed out from Him. So the “evil spirit” comes literally from God. It is amusing to watch the pseudo-open theist tap dance being done here. We are so afraid that God is exactly as he portrays Himself in the Scripture. We make him into a warm fuzzy pooh bear.
Paul asked the right question in Romans 9; “who are you oh man?” We do not get to define God as we would like Him to be. The eventual end of all “open God” teachings and tendencies, which the church is full of btw, is that we re-make God into our image and likeness, i.e. we will eventually
create our own version of the incarnation.
As for the disproving of Calvinism blah, blah, blah,
2 Thess2:
9The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, 10and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, 12in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Romans 1:
28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
The verse in its context tells us that God gives men up tp depravity and delusion because they are already perishing, and never loved the Truth to begin with. So man is totally depraved from birth and does not seek God of his own “free will” So God’s turning them over to it seals their fate.
These verses do not prove arminianism or calvinism. Men make a choice and God foreknows those choices. God’s sovereign will over-rides man’s volition.
God is the only being with what could be called completely free will.
When we read Romans 7, whether we believe it to be speaking of man’s pre-christian condition, (which it is not ), or whether we believe it is speaking of post-conversion man, (which it is), the point is our choices are influenced by the flesh vs. the spirit. What we don’t want to do we do. What good we want to do we are unable to. So thanks be to God who has delivered us from this body of death by literally taking us to the cross with Christ and putting us to death, The Law makes no demand on a dead man. Now my “will” is free to choose to “walk in the Spirit” which is the only choice I have to make.
We are under grace, and that grace is that Jesus Christ fulfills, a present and active verb, both requirements of the Law, which are;
that it must be perfectly kept, never violated, and if it is broken, it requires the death of the lawbreaker. Jesus stands in the place of all mankind on both counts. However the Law still stands also. It is not done away with. We either accept or reject this fact. However, the faith to believe comes from hearing the Word of God and this faith comes from God as a gift to us, as we do not inherently possess it.
So we make choices but no man can resist God’s free and sovereign will. Romans 10:17; Eph 2: 8-10; and Romans 9:18-24
The scriptures are God’s revelation of Himself and His will/plan and contain everything that we need to know regarding both. Therefore the Scriptures are neither limiting or restrictive, as God sovreignly chose to limit this revelation to the Word revealed by the Holy Spirit.
Deut 29:29; Psalm 25:14
Chris P, So your position is that evil comes from and is sent from God?
You see, Chris P., Calvinists cannot even admit that there are many verses that are seemingly incongrous with a strict Calvinist view. I will admit ther are many verses that seem to point to Calvinism, but there are just as many that are free will.
Verses like Jesus word’s to Jerusalem, “How often I wanted to gather you…but you would not” cannot even be honstly dealt with by the reformed crowd. They are absolutely clear and even if we get to heaven and God says that Calvin was completely correct, this side of heaven those verses present and irreconcilable problem for Calvin.
By the way, the blah, blah, blah reply will marked wrong on a test.
Yes, evil comes from God ultimately. The mystery of iniquity. A genuine mystery that cannot be fully understood through a darkened glass perspective.
At the risk of being flayed for using such a source:
The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there is no good evidence either way.
–Bertrand Russell
I find it…not amusing…that even singling out one, specific verse of the Bible to merely discuss, the claws would not retract for some people on their pet issue. It’s hard to hear above all the clanging gongs and cymbals that get brought to the table when everything is a fight. I really did just want to hear thoughts on this topic, this verse, and not more fighting, i.e. this wasn’t about Calvinism/Arminianism.
This was about evil coming from God. As Rick put it, “the mystery of iniquity.”
Despite that, thanks for putting this up, Joe. And for all those responding. I have had another answer over at my blog where I posted the question, too. I will keep coming back here to read what others have left, because this is a perplexing concept for me.
Henry, that is the position I take on this discussion. As usual, you say it better.
This passage is also a bit like Job, the difference being that instead of sending an evil spirit, God invites Satan to “torture” Job.
The big difference between this passage and Job is that Job can not be viewed as “depraved,” as Saul was. Rather, God said of Him, “There is no one on earth like hiim; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” Job 1:8 NIV
From these two passages taken together I think it cannot be concluded that God could only send an evil spirit to torment someone IF that person deserved it because of his depravity. However it could be TENTATIVELY concluded that in the I Samuel passage God did send the evil spirit because of Saul’s previous disobedience.
So we have a God who can do with evil spirits and Satan, what he wants, when He wants.
And one thing is certain, God is not a Pooh-bear as Chris P put it, but a God whom we simply have to accept and worship without expecting him to fit into our narrow conceptions of what he is and is not supposed to do. For example, it is not biblical to say, “I wouldn’t cause suffering, how could He? Therefore, he must not be the one causing suffering.”
19 Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the LORD : I saw the LORD sitting on his throne with all the host of heaven standing around him on his right and on his left. 20 And the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’
“One suggested this, and another that. 21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, ‘I will entice him.’
22 ” ‘By what means?’ the LORD asked.
” ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said.
” ‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the LORD. ‘Go and do it.’
23 “So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you.” (1 Kings 22:19-23)
The lying spirit in I Kings 22:19-23 was part of the “host of heaven.” I’ve always understood “heavenly hosts” as being angels, good ones. I’m wondering, is my understanding wrong? Or was this a “good spirit” who acted as a “lying spirit?”
Deborah,
I see this as not that God is the originator of “evil” rather that God uses that evil that is present for His will.
In some verses, especially the KJV, God is said to have “created” evil. If that is true than He is unjust as He then created sin…
Evil is the twisting of God’s “goodness” of creation. It is taking a truth and making it a lie… like the Serpent in the Garden did. It is looking out for the worse of others… and often creating the worse.
When God uses evil as in the case here, that person has already forsaken Him. God has turned Saul, in this case over to his depravity and has left him to what he truly desires… or as Paul states in Romans. “Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts” because “They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator”. Saul at this point was consumed by hate and jealousy so was turned over to that “spirit” which caused calamity in his mind. Notice that God does not make the evil in Saul’s heart… he turns Saul over to the evil that is already present after God takes away the Holy Spirit….
Note this can be translated as an “evil wind” as breath and spirit are the same word.
In some Jewish views, they have a doctrine that “because of our sins we were punished” which is fine until you look at the Holocaust… (yet more people came to faith in God through the Holocaust than lost their faith) Yet still to me at least does not satisfy the issue of “God sending evil” so I think the next view they hold is also closer to what we have been saying… It is the price we pay for having free will. Which we must be careful not to go the rest of the way and say that God cannot do anything about it… as I stated He hold evil in its boundaries. Remember, God set boundaries on how far Satan could go against Job… Yet still allow some very evil things to happen to Job to test Job’s faith. God is sovereign, yet allows that evil take its course if man chooses it over Him.
Do I understand all this as far as God allowing evil… which in my mind seems a bit evil… yet I do understand letting someone go their own course even if it is destructive… especially if you have done all you can for them.
The bottom line though that is missing in this thread is the reason we have God Who is now the”just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus”. In that many who hate the “social gospel” miss that God Himself was the Just One who brought Justice to mankind. They view justice as only the administration of God’s wrath… and not that He is setting things to right. In that we too are partakers in that good work. To be the “Just and the justifiers” as we being Sons of the Living God take on the very vocation of Christ Jesus Himself… this is not some sort of “liberalism” but the very core of loving God and loving one another. That we seek to bring the best to others and kindness to those who have none… to fee the hungry, cloth the naked. It is all a part of the the natural outflow of who we are in Christ and is as much part of the “Gospel” as “not going to hell”.
It is sad that many miss that evil is now defeated, and we can defeat it daily by the “blood of the Lamb and the Power of our testimony”. The sweetness of the music from David gave peace for a time to Saul. It was a salve to him. If he had turned back to God and forsook his depravity Saul would have been saved. Yet, one must remember God desired to be their King and they wanted to be like the other nations who had kings. God promised He would raise up a King of His choosing and they chose Saul instead. So once again, Saul was a choice out of free will and out of the peoples desires and not of God. God gave them over to that desire so that they would learn from it and seek Him.
Blessings,
iggy
Very interesting topic indeed.
I really don’t have an answer, but more questions. So how does that verse jive with
“Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am being tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone” (James 1:13).
I guess one cay say that evil comes from God, but not temptation. Sounds like splitting hairs to me.
Julie and Joe,
Thanks for discussing scripture instead of people! It is so refreshing!
It is a very interesting verse to say the least. My thoughts would be that it means exactly what it says! I am not sure God desires us to figure everything out.
It is hard to understand how a evil spirit was sent from God! I enjoy reading all the different thoughts.