From Romans Chapter 1:

28And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Though they know God’s decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Now put it together with chapter 2:

1Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who do such things. 3Do you suppose, O man–you who judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself–that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.

We need to read it like a contiguous letter since that is what it is.

What we call chapter 1 deals with the heathen, the goyim. Chapter 2 deals with Israel that is the jews who have the Law, and break it as badly as the gentiles, who sin without the Law.
Paul’s point is that there is no difference between the two, and this becomes the foundation of this entire letter, which essentially reveals God’s plan of salvation for mankind.

The passage has nothing to do with being nice. It is about God’s grace.
The Pharisees and all religious jews assumed because they had the oracles of God, that somehow made them better than everybody else. However, if you commit the same sin as an unbeliever, you break the oracles you have been entrusted with. What God gives graciously, as kindness is meant to lead us to repent. The Law does not save, it leads us to Jesus the fulfiller, and payer of the consequences of breaking the commands, i.e. keeper, of the Law. With Paul, all should say, “I am chief of sinners” I have broken every command.
Now when it comes to the unbelieving, and the brand new believer, I do not expect them to know anything that a supposedly mature believer would know, and I relate to them accordingly.
When it comes to blogs, pseudo-theologians, authors, etc, etc, that is a different story. If you are going to put yourself and your “ideas” out there you had better be able to stand or fall with them.
When a papist writes that Rome is the one true church,(which it is not), then I am going to confront such a thing head on.
The same applies for all un-biblical teaching.
What exactly does God tolerate? The correct translation of that word from the Greek would be “self-restraint”. Paul is talking about
God with-holding His wrath on sinners until they come to repentance.
The wrath of God is poured out upon Jesus at the cross, on our behalf.

“my God my God why have you forsaken me?”

God tolerates nothing outside of His pure nature. Neither should we.

And still yet…

God’s kindness leads us to repentance…

God is pure, yes…but it is not a purity in need of protection from any of us…

Precisely because it is God’s and because it is a purity that transforms and makes pure all that it touches. It is not a purity that shrinks back from what is impure as if afraid or horrified. God’s totalizing nature envelopes, transforms, redeems. That is a critical component to properly understanding “holiness”. Otherwise we fall into the trap of setting up love against truth or holiness, etc. etc. etc.

Truth is not the issue, it’s the manner in which we speak of truth that is at issue here. The unending insistence to make “truth” the issue when it is not being denied is a foil to distract from our responsibility to communicate truth in a way that undergirds the truthfulness of God’s joyful redemption of us by grace. We can speak of sin or error with this gospel joy and it is not a betrayal of truth.

tolerance IS self-restraint.
Restraining the darker part of ourselves that would “god over” others as if we are more righteous than they, rather than as co-recipients of unmerited grace.

tolerance is not, and when correctly understood, never is “you’re ok, I’m ok”. tolerance is not the absence of disagreement. In my experience, it’s just being polite and knowing the limits of my disagreement with someone means they have the right to be wrong…same as me…It’s disagreement without demeaning the person. If there is any “attack”, it is the attack of the position, not the people holding it with names, accusations, etc.

I think this is actually a fruitful conversation so far…very “emerging”, in the best sense of the moniker…(just teasing)

The apostles should have followed that advice, it would have saved them much discomfort and even…death.

Henry,
Sorry – I don’t follow your argument here, could you expound a bit?

Neil

The issues are being confused here Nathan and this is where the problem lies. You ask: “What would happen if we,…went out into our communities and actually befriended gays, Catholics, minorities, Muslims, and even Baptists.”

If someone disagrees with this then they would be akin to those in the emerging church movement who would go so far as to say we can’t know the truth. A very small minority viewpoint e.g. Phelps’ deceived followers.

But here we need to be careful when you then say: “And not befriending them as a ‘project’, but authentically loving them with the love of Christ.” The only way someone can actually do this is by having Christ doing so through them. And at some level they are a “project” in that we are to be ambassadors imploring them to be reconciled to God by surrendering to Christ.

Then again the issue is clouded as you say: “If every follower of Christ did this, then a lot more people would see the kindness, tolerance and patience of our God, and be drawn to repentance.” Yes, we should be loving as I was with a caller the other night on the radio program I was on.

He told me he didn’t believe in God so he couldn’t understand why he had anyting to be concerned with. I told him if he’d contact me I’d answer any questions he had and talk with him further. I have plenty of people I know, who actually like me and I them, who are not believers.

However, no matter how much I love them, no matter how nice I am to them, they would only “see the kindness, tolerance and patience” of God through me, and only “be drawn to repentance” if he draws them. So there is nothing that excuses us from being loving and kind, we are to be, but we also have to pray to God that He grant them repentance. I pray this helps.

“Truth is not the issue, it’s the manner in which we speak of truth that is at issue here.”

Yes. The Scriptures clearly expound the truth of God’s redemptive plan in many different ways. Jude even says “some save with fear”.

God’s kindness draws. God’s wrath draws. Some saved through fear, others through unimagineable love.

Would it be safe to say, in an effort to avoid being like Job’s friends and speaking for God and announcing that surely He must move in such and such a way as if we know everything God is, that because God knows our hearts He knows what draws us?

There are some of us who find Romans 8:1 some kind of almost unbelievable promise, and that when other Christian brothers and sisters begin heaping more condemnation and guilt — telling us how much of a sinner we are and how unregenerate we are and how we’ve failed because we watch/listen/wear/say/read whatever, etc. — for people like us, it is God’s love and kindness and the hope of Christ that pulls up out of the “mirey clay” each day so we can keep walking towards the goal.

Pounding guilt and sin and condemnation into all people at all times may only be effective for those who refuse to believe it in the first place, while the rest it only pounds into the ground. Some of us never had any doubt we are the worst of sinners and the kindness of God is our hope.

No relationship, no credibility. No credibility, no voice.

Of course, there are the exceptions. Some people are turned off by the street preacher, yet others find Christ. I don’t know if it is always possible to have a personal relationship with everyone who still may come to Christ, particularly if someone overhears us talking about Christ (say an airport or whatever), or “overhears” us in the way we live our life.

Sometimes I find myself copping out of speakin about Christ if I fall into the “well, I don’t have a relationship with them yet” excuse. There have been times where I felt like I was to talk to a person that I didn’t know, but I haven’t always followed through.

I don’t think Paul, when preaching and teaching, could have known everyone. The main thing isn’t the relationship, but probably the Spirit.

I’m not sure how this fits into the comment about the manner of which we speak the truth… I suppose that those who are comfortable with relational witnessing can use that as an excuse to not step out, and vice versa (those more used to not forming a deep or committed relationship with unsaved people).

Different approaches, same truth. Sometimes direct, sometimes abstract, sometimes parables. I agree AN, even when we seem direct we must have love in our hearts which is more difficult than we like to pretend. For example, how many Christians have the love of God in their hearts for Rosie O’Donnell? Ted Kennedy? Brittney Spears?

Carrying God’s truth in a vessel of judgment or pride is used by the enemy to obscure the redemptive core of all of God’s gospel truths. Everything the Spirit does today is wrapped in redemption, salvation to all men, from Manson to the pope. Even when God does something like He did to Ananias and Sapharia it was meant to garner the attention of others to bring redemption.

The whole world is a project. Jesus did not say go make friends, He said go make disciples. If we are friends with the lost and they die without Christ because we did not desire to offend them, we will see them again at the Great White Throne Judgment and what do you think they will say then?

“Thanks for being my friend”.????

Our mission is far more eternally serious than friendship alone, which requires some “redeeming of the time” because some have not much time. I beg us all and me especially, let us continually ask God for the power of the Spirit to lovingly but boldly share the only message the world needs to hear. The friendship method can sometimes be useful, but it can sometimes be the easy way out. Let us be careful.

While I worked as a chef in Bible school I became burdened for a young man who worked there also. One Sunday night after church(remember those days?) I went to the restaurant, cornered him, and witnessed to him. He said he appreciated it but he wasn’t ready, he was a big party animal. One week later, at age 18, he was dead.

Now for the bad news. Before I was saved I was a very bad man. I had many white and black friends in northern Jersey. My best friend was a black man who looked like Joe Frazier. We had done all sorts of sin together, and then I got saved. We fell out of touch. Before I left for school I had a chance to tell him the gospel, but I was new and mentioned something about Bible school. One week later my aunt called me at colleg and told me he had been shot to death. I will never get over my sin of ommission, there are times I still weep over my friend Billy Ruffin.

I share these stories to help us all see the eternal importance of sharing the gospel. Tomorrow may be the day He returns. Are there any phone calls the Spirit may direct us to make tonight???

I’m am ashamed to admit, but yes. There were times when God not only opened the door, but had to give me a push, then a pull, then a ride, a blinking arrow — everything — before I grudgingly did something I was supposed to do. “Trapped into witnessing.”

The rocks cry out, indeed.