style or content. Which is it? **UPDATED**
I have been reading a lot of posts from the watch doggie blogs lately that critique style much more that theology. This was Ingrid’s comment from a recent post
Imagine having to compete with the entertainment moguls. Imagine the money you’d have to spend staying cool and buying endless media equipment, attending endless conferences on how to generate the most buzz and investing in those expensive salon haircuts just to stay relevant.
Is she really now critiquing haircuts? After being quite cynical over a conference that had leather sofas for pastor to sit in, she quoted this line from an Isaac Watts hymn:
Must I be carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease,
While others fought to win the fight and sailed through bloody seas?
Is she serious? I am tired of posts that deal almost exclusively with style. You know, I am perfectly fine with someone who comes up to me after a Sunday gathering at Mosaic and says I prefer hymns over modern music. It’s when someone says that GOD prefers hymns over modern music that my blood starts to heat up. It’s absolutely ridiculous to think that God cares about the seating arrangement at a conference. Here was Ingrid’s closing comments
As pomo pastors recline in their leather theater seats, plotting how to impress a jaded American culture, a generation is denied the preaching of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. What is wrong with this generation of boy/men emerging leaders with their fancy websites, their adolescent fascination with video games and movies, and their vulgar contempt for anyone who questions them? …What a strange world we live in now and how pitiful that this Buzz Conference is now the status quo for pastors conferences. It’s those reclining leather theater seats that really say it all. What a real slice of Laodicea.
So, I don’t get it. How exactly do websites and haircuts deny the preaching of the true Gospel of Jesus Christ? Maybe if some of these watchdoggies actually did their homework, they would find that the emerging movement goes way beyond the movies and seating styles. They might just find that we are not trying to be relevant to culture, but actually living in and affecting the culture of today. They would possibly see that the world isn’t stuck in the culture of the eighteenth century, and neither is God. That maybe he is actually moving and creating with culture today.
I know we have had a thousand of these posts before. But, I think it is a good reminder that God wants to restore this generation to himself as well as the generation that grew up in a very modern era.
**UPDATE**
Right after I published this, Ingrid posts this:
Church used to be a house of prayer for believers to come together, hear the preaching of the Word, worship the Lord corporately as those who belong to Jesus, share the Lord’s Supper and go out into the world as witnesses, strengthened and empowered by what the Lord had done in their midst. That’s all gone now. Church is now for the unbeliever. Christians are expected to put up with no end of insult, whether it be stupid movie clips, hot bands, Sundays at the theater, Elvis wanna-be’s, and the like, just so unconverted Joe will like church well enough to come back next Sunday for stupid movie clips, hot bands, Sundays at the theater, Elvis wanna-be’s and so forth. It never gets any deeper in these churches because it can’t. Joe Six-Pack will leave and that reduces the numbers.
Notice how she talks about the non-beleiver. It’s pretty sad and pretty selfish if you ask me.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
31 Comments(+Add)
I will never understand how you can subscribe to the truth that Scripture alone teaches doctrine and truth, specifically and in detail, and then you can be dogmatic about music styles about which the Scriptures say NOTHING. It is because you have made your opinions overide God’s Word.
I have read pages of articles linked to SOL about music and many are scholarly and well written with no Scripture. See, when we need to we can compromise to fit our personal bent on any issue. So much for Sola Scriptura. I can never understand why they use Italian or Latin or whatever those words are, don’t they seem to be Catholic?
This watch bloggie sure spends an awful lot of time bashing other people. Who put you over Ingrid to be her judge, Nathan? Who are you to judge anything on Slice as true or false? Don’t you have anything better to do with your time than criticizing other Christians for their beliefs? You say it’s wrong for discernment folks to say stuff is wrong. How are you any different, buddy? I can’t believe that this entire site is dedicated to such pharisaical conduct. Are you saying Nathan that only you are right and Ingrid and Ken Silva and all the others are wrong? Doesn’t that sound bigoted and self-righteous? Who made you the arbiter of truth in the world? Is there not room for other opinions and views besides your own interpretation of things? I’m getting weary of this site, just as you seem to be weary of Slice and CRN. I have a great idea that would really heal the body of Christ. Why don’t you, Nathan, be a role model for peacemaking and shut this site down. You are doing the very thing you condemn and in a much narrower fashion than either Slice OR CRN. You exist soley and exclusively to bash two blogs. That is really, really narrow minded.
PAX begins with you.
I read that post this morning and had similar thoughts. I would add on top of that though, her comment
To me, that seems just plain lazy. We all know that she thinks it’s a sin to use cultural tools as methods of evangelism, but it seems also that she just finds it to be too much work. God forbid we put out some effort. Yes, recurring effort (not something we can do once and recycle).
Is anyone else seeing that in her comments?
Besides seeing an unordained woman publicly rebuking an ordained male elder, yes, I see a Rush Limbaughesque rant.
Limbaughesque = turn on the mike and listen to me talk and claim ever word I say is true.
PAX,
You asked:
Uhm – a Chrstian protecting fellow believers from divisive attacks from within, for starters… Notice that the salvation of Ingrid, Ken, et al. is not the issue (unlike many AM/C?N/SOL articles), nor are responses here a sheer focus on externals (like, primarily, SOL).
We are not criticizing other Christians for their beliefs. As Jesus said – Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
And so it is that we stand up to the teaching of the modern-day pharisees who pile burdens upon people which are extra-biblical rules and regulations they have declared. This is exactly what Nathan has done in this article.
It is not wrong for discernment folks to say stuff is wrong. Perhaps you can search this site and give me somewhere that we have said this.
What we have said (fairly consistently) is that brothers and sisters in Christ should be dealt with in charity in areas of non-essentials (such as musical style, worship style, method of witness, etc.), that they should not be dealt with hypocritically in terms of externals, and that God-given logic and honesty should be used in weighing disagreements, not demogoguery, proof-by-assertion, straw-man fallacies and other disreputable methods (most often employed by Ken).
There are many good discernment ministries out there. SoL, C?N and AM just aren’t in that list of ministry, and part of what we do is offer counterpoint to what poison is spewed from them or similar places within the church.
What pharisaical conduct is that? We allow open discussion of all viewpoints on an issue, and we correct each other (and sometimes ourselves) when we are in the wrong. We do not make up requirements that people must follow in order to be ‘our kind of Christian’. We also strive, first and foremost, to understand Jesus’ message and ministry – in its original context – and to apply it to discussions of today (rather than assuming that 1800’s Victorian interpretation and man-made, systematic theologies of the past 500 years are automatically right). I’m struggling to find the connection to Phariseeism.
I do not think that Nathan, myself, or any of the other contributors has any illusion that they are the arbiters of truth. We are not afraid to print retractions if we are in the wrong, and to make sure that the retraction is not buried in a Google-cache somewhere. We do not hide, nor will we hide, our mistakes – to do so would be dishonest.
On the flip side, have you ever observed ANYONE successfully convince Ken that he is in the wrong on ANYTHING (even when it is obviously so to his own supporters)?
We are not the arbiter of truth in the world. There is room for other opinions, and we try to discuss them in a respectful manner (though I, for one, do not always succeed in this end). For instance, I do not always agree with Rick Frueh on issues pertaining to the ECM, but I will always discuss them with him and I have no qualms with him writing guest-contributions to this site. I wonder when Ken or Ingrid will let me guest-write an article for them…
My apologies for your weariness here in your first post here. As for your suggestion, Nathan cannot shut this site down, because I own it and manage it.
While we do concentrate on what it written at SOL/C?N/AM, we also deal with and discuss other issues – and issues raised by SOL/C?N/AM – to formulate what we believe is proper Christian response to those issues. Four of the articles on the front page right now are not directly responses to any of these three websites.
Additionally, we DO target these three sites, in particular, for responses. I have seen some folks (in real life) use one of these three sites as a source, only to have to offer them a different perspective than the pharisaical ‘Slice’ view (successfully in every case to this point). I have also received letters from a number of Christians who we have defended – directly or indirectly – thanking us for not sitting idly by while snipers ’shoot the wounded’ from the rear eschelon.
I am sorry this wearies you, as I wish it did not weary me so much, as well, but whether phariseeism is blatant, as with Fred Phelps, or just slightly more subtle, as with some of the cast of characters from SOL/C?N/AM, we will continue to protect our brothers and sisters and not sit idly by…
Um Pax,
I won’t even get into making a false name. But you really should look up the word “bigot.” I don’t think you understand what it means. OH and re-read Chris L’s post about 5 times.
Pax,
“bigoted and self-righteous”, LOL – You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Joe,
I will concede that Pax may not have read it – or may not have read it with the intended spirit. The same way that I sometimes am automatically conditioned with what to expect from another site, Pax may have been conditioned with that to expect here – and it often takes awhile for that kind of conditioning to give way to the truth.
When I go to C?N, for instance, I honestly try to read what is written in the spirit intended – and I agree with them on a number of occasions. That has not come easy. With SOL, I try to get past the petty focus on externals that seems so prevalent, to see what Ingrid is really trying to say. Unfortunately, I cannot say that I agree with her all that often, as it often never gets beyond petty externals.
Pax may never agree with us, but I want to treat him as respectfully as if he were my father writing to disagree with me…
Chris, are you trying to tell me something without telling me something? Do you think I mistreated Pax?
No, I don’t think so – I just want to go the extra mile to give him the benefit of the doubt…
Besides the obvious partisonism that comes across clearly in PAX’s remarks, let me address the core of the issue. I myself thought long and hard about what this particular blog had as a purpose. Sure it sometimes goes a little over the top, and they get a little obssessed over Ken especially, but what they do provide is accountability for Christians who speak continually harshly about others without a shred of love or humility.
By the way, PAX, you asked “Are you saying Nathan that only you are right and Ingrid and Ken Silva and all the others are wrong?”.
No, Nathan is saying I am right and everyone else desires to be me. I am willing to help anyone make progress toward me.
I hope that helps, PAX. Oh and PAX, please start using de-caffeinated.
Chris L, Ok.
Rick, are you being funny or serious?
I think that Rick is engaging in a little bit of satire (or else there’s a missing word in there), if I read the context correctly…
Chris,
is Pax a regular here at this site? I have never heard of him.
Boy, I now know my spiritual mission. Getting you guys humor sensitive. That is a descendant of seeker sensitive. Of course it is humor/satire.
With my theological background you guys don’t yet know how to take me. My father was a German chess player/engineer and my mother was an Irish stand-up comediane. One Lutheran and one Catholic. And some people deny miracles are for today.
Rick,
Do you play chess online? I LOVE chess. I’m awful at it, but I love it.
Yes, sometimes. Blitzin Chess. Let me know, I love to increase my rating with awful, I mean, Chrisitian players.
Ingrid aside (please), many churches are increasingly shallow and entertain the masses. The salvation by faith, created unto good works, is now salvation by repetitive prayer, without much discernable difference.
We need to adjust our model of baptism. Buried with Him in baptism, and then leave him down there because rising to walk in newness of life is sorely missing. Not the sinner’s fault, it’s our fault for not giving the clear gospel.
Henry,
Long story short, my email got fried, I’ve googled Blitzen chess and want to make sure I’m at the right page. Can you email so I can make sure I’m downloading the right software?
http://www.chessclub.com/helpcenter/interface/blitzin_download.php
Sadly, I can’t afford those prices right now.
OH well, if I ever get some money I’ll have to sign up. 
Weary of this site, eh?
Then don’t visit it…
Just like a TV…if you don’t like the content…change the channel.
“Notice how she talks about the non-beleiver. It’s pretty sad and pretty selfish if you ask me.”
Actually she is talking about the churches, not the unregenerate whom, it is sad to say, are in all likelihood still unregenerate.
I watched a show on “christian ” tv on all the “new things” going on in the church. There was Mark Driscoll, Erwin
Mc Manus and even some mega Baptist church that has a kids ministry that looks like a set from some Nick-o-lodeon game show. I almost wrote Nicolaitan
I personally do not make an issue over music styles or meeting formats, I only care about content. That being said, I find all of the above lacking in substance. Changing “me” theology to “we” theology is still not the Gospel. Community is not the goal, it is a product of the Gospel. Celebrating diversity, and oohing and ahhing over our creativity, are not the goal either.They are not even biblical concepts.
My prediction is in 5-10 years after everybody gets burned out and wounded, which has happened to every move of God/dispensation from day one, there will be some new nonsense to take its place. This is why I do not view the scriptures dispensationally, nor do I view history in that way either.
When we get back to “HE” theology we will at least be on the right track.
“When we get back to “HE†theology we will at least be on the right track. ”
Amen, Chris P.
But God IS creating a WE (a community, a people) that bears witness to the HE (who really is an eternal WE as Father, Son and Holy Spirit)…
If that is understood, I don’t think such language is incompatible with your views Chris P. In fact, I would agree with the basic principle of what you say…
I would agree that “personal fulfillment” or “therapeutic” approaches to relationships as the focus of the church are off-base…but a nuanced understanding of the WE (the Church) is essential.
I disagree with your statement about community. The WE is NOT just a product. The Church is a Divine WE, a holy mystery…maybe a Divine product…but if it is a product it is a product with purpose and essential meaning…not just a BY-product. The WE of the church is not some happenstance aggregate of individuals who find themselves in the same boat (i.e. going to heaven) and God put them together as a “support group”. Again…God is creating a PEOPLE.
The WE is the primary basis of our gospel credibility. The WE is our love for each other.
If the WE is grounded in the mission of gospel proclamation in words AND deeds, then that WE is a great thing to be focused on as the substance of our “ministry of reconciliation”–reconciling with God AND others to proclaim the genuineness of what we have received from God by grace through faith. The work of the church is not merely information exchange–even if it’s Divine information exchange. I think in the hands of lesser minds or lazier hearts what you’re saying Chris P could be taken to that level. AND I know that you are clear about the Christian life being one that encompasses the whole person, their life and comportment, their heart attitudes, etc.
But I think that distinction needs to be made about the WE and mission. It’s a distinction I hear all the time and has been the hallmark of my experience with the emerging church…and even those of my friends in emergent village.
But that’s just me…funny what happens when you actually spend time with people (lots of it), actually building relationships and really flesh out what they are saying, thinking, etc. And that’s hard to do for some people who’ve made up their minds, enshrined their own preferences and won’t leave the bubble of VCYAmerica or their living room bible study. Ironic that those are the very charges laid before those they criticize…
To be clear, Chris P, you don’t strike me as such a person. You have your issues with things with which you disagree, can be a bit curmudgeonly in how you express it at times =), but I really sense a real heart for God and His renown. Besides…anyone who is consciously NOT dispensational is just fine with me. =)
I just think there is a tendency in the meta here to create a false anti-thesis between the WE and the HE. Both sides can be excessive…and thus mistaken. Well-intentioned, but…
you get my point.
best
Chris P,
I would argue that the men you mentioned (and those labled “emergent” by outsiders) would agree with your assessment. I don’t think that any of them (I know McManus wouldn’t) would say that community, diversity or creativity are the goals of the gospel. They are a result of the gospel (and certainly create momentum for the gospel).
I would say that both diversity and creativity are scriptural. Why would God have the believers at pentacost speak in other languages if he didn’t care about diversity? If you are not more gifted after a relationship with Jesus Christ, then something didn’t work right. We are promised power, gifts, wisdom and guidance after we enter into a relationship with Jesus Christ. So creativity should be the natural result of spirituality. Unfortunately people naturally think artistry when they hear creativity. They are two very different things.
Chris,
I might be more open to believing you if you actually commented on the content and less on the style. Look at your last post, all the specifics you mention have to do with style, none of it has to do with content. Is it that you’re just not familiar enough to mention specific content? Or that, like Ingrid and Ken, you are obsessed with style?
Its really difficult to take people from your perspective seriously when I see most of the complaints lodged having to do with clothing, hymns and organs while claiming that it has to do with what is actually going on.
Chris P.
“My prediction is in 5-10 years after everybody gets burned out and wounded, which has happened to every move of God/dispensation from day one, there will be some new nonsense to take its place. This is why I do not view the scriptures dispensationally, nor do I view history in that way either.’
This is my fear also and why I support sites like this one. If those are more worried about if a T.V. stage looks like Nickelodeon more that what is being taught or that “sinners” are in their churches, then we are in a huge heap of trouble.
It seems though that the ones that nitpick over style and miss that many are actually coming to Christ…(How can that be if they do not agree with you?) that those limit the Power of the Holy Spirit in His workings.
Yet, they will still cast stones over small differences of style and add to the burden of the Gospel… it is truly sad to see.
Yet, I think those that are Powered by the Holy Spirit will not get burned out and true victory will come to those who overcome by the Blood of the Lamb the accusers of the brethren deny by their attack against the Unity of the Body of Jesus Christ.
Be Blessed,
iggy
BTW Chris P,
“When we get back to “HE†theology we will at least be on the right track. â€
Many of us in the emerging conversation are doing this! We have a very high Christology which we are actually attacked for having… we are accused that we do not hold the Bible high enough… yet we hold Jesus the Person highest and that HE is faithful to HIS WORD (the Bible)…
So, we agree and I wonder why you still attack against us without a thought to any of that.
Be blessed,
iggy
To the point of Ingrid’s recent tantrum…
As a minister who values creativity, I never was tired or felt like I had to keep up with Hollywood, entertainment television, etc. etc. etc. Talk about speaking out of ignorance and making serious assumptions about the motives of people she doesn’t even know.
I look at creativity as a chance to serve the Body by creating spaces and places for them to meet with God, worship God in the splendor of holiness, to gaze on the beauty of God, to be relieved of any need for pretending and to know God’s unceasing mercy and forgiveness for our sin. Wow…sounds like I’m celebrating the Gospel.
Nope.
No way that could be.
I have a “trendy” hair cut, my ears are pierced, and I think my wife is hot even when she is pregnant! =)
The condition of my heart is clear.
I love it. Here’s the non-logic of these rants:
I’m shallow and obsessed with style… unless I’m obsessed with hymns and sacred classical music. (btw, I love hymns.)
Because THAT’s not enshrining the culture. ummmm…yeah.
I’m sold out to the world, hollywood and vain if I wear jeans, put some goop in my hair or shave my head for convenience, and like the aesthetic look of small ear piercings… unless I enshrine getting a business style haircut and look like a lawyer with a suit and tie on Sundays. Because THAT’s not idolatry of a particular classes idea of appearance. Ummmm…yeah.
To add to it all…
If I had any idea that sitting on a couch instead of an uncomfortable ballroom chair was a sign of my heart’s condition…Well, that just takes the cake!
I guess a hard backed pew shows more devotion. But isn’t that “ascetical”? Isn’t that part of the apostate spiritual practices of the middle church now carried and nurtured by the whore of Rome?!?!?!
Dudes! Pew sitters are defecating on the blood of the Reformers!
Another thing, DUDES.
RE: The Brewery Church post.
Two words.
“Honky tonk”.
Who talks like that?
Yep…those nasty breweries and supposedly secular places.
Yep…Paul should never have gone to Mars Hill.
He should never have gone to that center of pagan, sex-fueled Diana worship in Ephesus.
That creative apostle. What would he have thought of next?
Oy. It’s like watching someone have a seizure.