Apprising on McManus: twist and turn till you get what you want
Ken Silva teams up with a disgruntled former Mosaic church member to strike again against Erwin McManus. Ron Foster is apparently an “Apprising correspondent†who has done a very bad job of apprising McManus’ ministry. Here are a few of the many logical fallacies in this article.
Erwin said
“The greatest enemy of the movement of Jesus Christ is Christianity,†and “My goal is to destroy Christianity as a world religion and be a recatalyst for the movement of Jesus Christ.â€
Apprising said
There are many who claim to be Christians but show no evidence of Christ being their Lord… But that’s not the kind of Christianity Erwin McManus is talking about. No, he’s talking about biblical Christianity. He’s talking about the Christianity of the Gospels, the Christianity of the Apostles, the Christianity that triumphed in the Reformation when certain godly men stood up for truth against Roman Catholic heresy… When Erwin says he wants to destroy Christianity, he is speaking of the Church of Jesus Christ that exalts God’s glory in justification by faith alone to the glory of God alone.
Right. So Apprising knows that McManus is really talking about destroying the gospels, justification by faith and the Christianity of the Apostles. Of course he wasn’t talking about a Christianity that puts the traditions and laws of man before the scriptures. I find it funny that in the same message in which Erwin said that quote, he also spoke out against the practices of the Roman Catholic Church. But I guess they didn’t want to research and publish that, right?
Erwin Said
“The practice of opening up the Bible and preaching verse-by-verse every Sunday and teaching doctrines that those who come already believe, and somehow think that that will transform society, you can’t find it in [the Bible].†Emphasis theirs.
Apprising Replies
Teaching doctrine isn’t biblical?
Huh? How did they get that from the quote above? Where exactly did he say that teaching doctrine isn’t biblical? I mean, if you read only their bolded words, you might get that. But Erwin said teaching doctrines every Sunday to people who already believe them will not transform society and you can’t find it in the bible. It’s true. I know plenty of people who can quote doctrine and scripture, go to church and hear it each week, but are not making a difference in their world. Erwin teaches out of the scriptures every week, so he obviously doesn’t believe that doctrine is not important… so I am still trying to figure out where they got this from.
Erwin said
“Christians love to get more and more information about God so they can know more and more without having to actually do anything about it.â€
Apprising said
That’s his take on discipleship. He’s saying that conversion inherently brings all the “information†you need to know about doctrine, and all God is calling for now is action.
What!?! How does Apprising pull that out from that quote? Erwin is saying that faith without works is dead. We all know many Christians who go to a bible study every night of the week, but do nothing with the knowledge gained. He is certainly not saying that conversion brings all the information you need. I am really not too sure where they pulled that out from.
All throughout this article, Apprising twists and turns its way to an interpretation that suits their view of McManus. Most of the stuff they write is downright laughable, especially when you really know the heart and intent of Erwin. I find it ironic that Apprising is all ways accusing those darn emergents of misinterpretation. However, twisting and tweaking words is the only way that they can keep their Christian tabloid interesting.
64 Comments(+Add)
“will not transform society”
Teaching this doctrine isn’t Biblical.
Ken,
The funny thing is when you tear away all the color of McManus’ speech… he is calling people into a deeper relationship with God… to not just give mental assent but to put feet to your faith..
But I guess you are against all that… and declare a mediocre faith as the best style to have.
Blessings,
iggy
That’s not stupidity, that’s sheer maliciousness for the sake of driving traffic. What’s the matter Ken? Apprising Ministries not bringing in the cash for you to live off of it?
Nathan,
this shows again that either ken and company cannot read and comprehend… or they truly see that twisting what someone states is fine… forget that it is bearing false witness… as long as it fits their version of truth and hurts the other…
I mean I read it as saw that McManus was saying that many that come to church every Sunday hear doctrine preached every Sunday… but can’t even find it in the Bible… and what Ken states he says is not even in the ballpark… it is in the fantasy league maybe… the “I can read but not comprehend” league… but not in the same context in which it was originally stated.
this really shows what Ken is all about… and he lectured me about idols… ” “Of what value is an idol, since a man has carved it? Or an image that teaches lies? For he who makes it trusts in his own creation; he makes idols that cannot speak.”
Ken creates his own world and then worships at the image he created that teaches lies and cares little for truth. It seems if one is not careful they become like the god they serve… exchanging the truth for a lie.
Now, that is a lesson of idolatry if Ken cares to listen.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Ken,
So you think sitting in church every Sunday just learning and learning and doing nothing is biblical?
You miss that you are stating that you are against the gospel transforming society!
You are one strange cat! Why then do you bother to even attack anyone if you do not want to make a difference?
Bizarre.
What twisted doctrine you teach!
iggy
Ken,
you don’t believe that we are supposed to be agents of change thru the power of Jesus Christ in the world around us?
Amazing how you guys put thoughts into the mouth of others and on the flip side accuse them of the very same thing.
Look at the fruits of the ministry of McManus, no wait, better yet, look at his words. To say that preaching the bible verse by verse is not biblical is to ignore the product of Ezra’s efforts who committed himself to study, live and teach the laws of God and the impact was magnificent and God exalting. I guess one would have to deduce from this that EM hasn’t read about Ezra who responded to the crowds beckoning him to “bring the book”.
You guys venture farther and farther away from sound biblical teaching and somehow are convinced you are moving closer and closer to God? Fulfilling the word which says “God will send them strong delusion, that they would believe the lie” and ushering in the great falling away is seemingly the most logical explanation one could find for your antics and activities.
One look at churches like Grace Community under John MacArthur, First Baptist Muscle Shoals under Jeff Noblit, Christ Fellowship under Steven Lawson, Bethlehem Baptist under John Piper, to name but a few, show that EM is uttering foolishness when he says the following:
“The practice of opening up the Bible and preaching verse-by-verse every Sunday and teaching doctrines that those who come already believe, and somehow think that that will transform society, you can’t find it in [the Bible].â€
How will they believe such things unless they are taught? To assume they already believe these doctrines is to make an assumption one is in no wise given the right nor the ability to make. Obedience to the call of preaching the word requires that one understand they are shepherding God’s flock, if they ignore the severity of that charge they do so to their own destruction and may God alone be glorified in whatsoever action He deems fit to such parasites posing as pastors and dismantling the faith of the masses.
Steven Lawson wrote “Famine In The Land” – a book far more worthy of reading than anything EM could ever conjure up, which speaks in depth of two very prolific expositors of God’s word in scripture, Jonah whose obedience in proclaiming the word of God brought about the reconciliation of all of Ninevah and Ezra who had the attention of over 42,000 as he taught from God’s word and brought about the radical reform of a people resulting in the following from Neh 9:
And they stood up in their place and read from the Book of the Law of the LORD their God for one-fourth of the day; and for another fourth they confessed and worshiped the LORD their God.
6 hours reading from the Law of the Lord and 6 hours confessing and worshiping – and to buy into the ideas of many we shouldn’t spend more than 20 minutes preaching on Sunday and keep it light and “relevant”?
“I know plenty of people who can quote doctrine and scripture, go to church and hear it each week, but are not making a difference in their world. ”
So do I. Is there a balance in what McManus teaches? I have not read anything of him but we must teach the Word, it is why God gave it and if you read Paul’s letters you see much doctrine. Why would Paul teach verse by verse if God did not desire it to be so?
Of course the church has settled into a comfortable niche that enjoys knowing and falls short in doing. There is a balance, though, for without knowing the Scriptures our work is of man. The New Testament is replete with teachings that say the desire the milk of the Word, the Scriptures are good for reprove, rebuke, and building us up in the faith, everything passes but the Word, study to show yourself approved unto God, and on and on it goes.
This is not an either or, but I fear that many will drive people to feed the poor and neglect the Word. That will bring about the falling away. Muslims and Hindus feed the poor, we must do good works always in Jesus’ name and never just to feed the earthly body.
A lost man lies on his death bed, minutes from dying. He requests a cold drink but he also has not heard the gospel. If you can you give him both the drink and a gospel witness. If it is impossible to do both, you give him the gospel.
I am pretty sure that Paul addressed the issues of his day, looking to scripture for the answers. Where did Paul open up the scriptures and preach verse by verse? He seems to be much more of a topical preacher.
Anyhow, I know that McManus uses a ton of scripture every time he gets up to speak. It is rediculous to think that he has no regard for doctrine or discipleship.
It seems to me that the ones I see that do not hold to the doctrines that they claim is Ken! Do not slander or bear false witness is a doctrine… and it seems Ken disregards that often. Lying is another…
So, how can one judge the other if the one judging seems to disregard doctrines as much if not more than the other?
Before someone pulls the “iggy you just judged” card… I am using discernment and looking at both sides of the issue as scripture tells us to. Unfortunately that seems lost on those who claim to be “discerning”.
I recently read a fairly good article on Mormonism by Ken… and in the middle of it he takes a swipe at that huge Mormon teacher… Rob Bell… Come on Ken! Get over it. Rob is on our side and teaches Jesus for salvation… he is not even related to the Mormons and you just go and nonchalantly toss him in an article against Mormons? Talk about out of context!
blessings,
iggy
Blessings,
iggy
Nathan – the verse by verse that I was referring to were his own by inspiration. Paul’s letters were conjunctive communications, they can be expounded topically or verse by verse.
OK guys, with Chris gone, let’s loot the store and banish him from this site? OK, Christian brotherhood and all that stuff. Don’t tell him I said this, tell him it was…Spurgeon!
Iggy,
That’s what makes it such a shame. Ken, Ingrid, et al. have so tainted their testimony with slander and hyperbole that no one who isn’t already on board with their ax grinding will ever seriously listen to them. That means even if they get around to talking about Jesus they’re only talking to themselves. They’ve castrated their own evangelism with their venom.
I believe James had something to say about praising God and cursing men with the same mouth.
What exactly do you guys mean by ‘making a difference’ in the world?
Are the only ‘true’ Christians those who tackle social injustice like Ghandi or Martin Luther King, Jr.?
Hitler ‘changed the world’ and ‘made a difference’! But I don’t think your looking for that type of change, are you?
You’re caricature of Christians sitting in pews soaking up knowledge and never making a difference is so myopic that it is both laughable and utterly reprehensible. It makes me want to vomit.
We serve God and make a difference in the world in the families and communities that God has put us into.
Making a difference is a mother sacrificing her career to stay home to raise her children so that they never have to set foot in a day care. (Where would our world be if mothers were replaced by daycare?)
Making a difference is a farmer putting in 16 hour work days so that you can purchase bread at your local grocery store. (Where would we be if farmers stopped farming?)
Making a difference is reading the Bible to your children at the dinner table every night.
Making a difference is doing your lousy 9 to 5 corporate job as if Jesus were your boss instead of that no-good corporate butt-kisser who thinks he’s ‘The Man’.
Making a difference is helping a couple with a troubled marriage rediscover love and grace.
Making a difference is helping a pregnant teen find the courage to not kill her unborn child.
There are Christians who attend church every Sunday to hear God’s word, hear the message of Christ Crucified for sins, receive instruction in sound doctrine who in turn take that teaching and apply it in ways that please God but would never even be noticed by those who look for ‘great signs’ of ‘changed lives’ and ‘Deep Shifts’.
Read the 10 commandments. That is THE short list of the things that please God.
Love and Serve the One True God Only
Keep the Sabbath Holy
Obey Your Parents
Do not murder your neighbor in body or reputation
Don’t Lie, cheat or steal
Remain faithful to your spouse
Do not covet
We serve God and make a difference in the world in mundane and humble ways every day. God didn’t call us to only hit grand-slams (there are so few who can do that anyway). He calls us to hit singles.
You hit a single when you change a diaper.
You hit a single when you clean up your child’s vomit in the middle of the night and sit at her beside until the dawn’s light breaks through the curtains to her bedroom.
You hit a single when you get that report at work done on-time.
You hit a single when you hit your sales-quota.
You hit a single when you stop and help a stranded motorist.
You hit a single when you clean the dishes and give your spouse the night off.
You hit a single when you teach your child to sing Jesus Loves Me, This I know, For the Bible Tells Me So.
We would do well to remember these things.
Tim – graphic hyperbole. Questionable but very creative!
I have spoken to them about this because as you will note most of the Tozer, Spurgeon, et. al. posts, even when dealing with the compromise in their era, seem direct and sometimes harsh, but never disrespectful or hyperbolically demeaning. I believe some very legitimate points are lost within the scorched earth approach.
Sincere and respectful dialogue even when at opposite ends, may be used of God to help you guys see…wait a minute…I meant help us all see more clearly.
Tim,
“They’ve castrated their own evangelism with their venom.”
Besides being a great sentence in and of itself… what evangelism are you speaking of? I have not seen any from these guys… just attacks with a couple of good posts sprinkled in as if to distract someone from thinking that they are all bad!
In fact what they might consider evangelism most likely will not even be read or considered by anyone who is not already in their camp… IOW they preach to the choir… (which sings only hymns or songs that are approved by whoever and whatever so called standard these people have.)
That is why when one attempts to do God’s work on their own strength and wisdom they bear bad fruit… it comes out of their own tree. bad tree bad fruit… but they seem to think that their own fruit magically changed and that now God blesses their works… and they miss that they need to be partakers in HIS WORKS which are already blessed!
It is a backwards upside down view of things that these people call the “gospel”…
“I have good news! God hates you because of your sin so God’s wrath is on you and you are going to Hell! Good News though if repent all of you sin and not miss a single one we might allow you into our church and accept you and teach you how to spread this gospel of God’s hate to others!”
now that is some good news! nope it is just part of the Gospel but they preach it as the whole gospel and then attack others of speaking of God’s kindness that leads to repentance.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Yeah, its a shame that the part of the good news that is the good news gets left out of their speech and actions so often. They get the wrath of God right, loudly and often, but only whisper about the grace and mercy of God every now and then.
Chris R…
And who said that we did not think that those things where not worthy and world changing…
Yet, there seems to be a group that if you mention feed the poor they state, “the poor will always be with you.” as if that was an excuse not to do anything… and the point was that they will be there and they will be a constant reminder that we need to love others.
Also, if we do see injustice, are we to just sit and do nothing… or if there is something like Katrina again… do we just sit back and say they need to help themselves and blame them for being poor and stupid in that they should have gotten out?
Do you advocate letting people die in the caste system in India as that is their problem? DO we forsake our brothers and sisters in China and other countries who are under persecution and say “God will take care of them?” DO we say to someone who is hunger… “be well fed and go in peace!” and do nothing?.. I have seen pew sitters whose main complaint is that “I am not getting fed!” as they blame the pastor for not teaching them meat…. mean while they are not even close to being able to eat it it he did!
So, really your lecture there falls on deaf and deft ears here… I have heard it but do not see it. I have seen people go to church every chance they can… and then go home and never read to their kids… complain that they lost their job again because of “the man” they did not bother to try to respect. Spend so much time trying to get their sales quota that their wife left them for another man… husbands who did the dishes because their wives are too lazy to do anything but nag them and tell them they are losers… yep these people never miss a chance to go to church…
I worked for a guy who condemned me for listening to christian rock music… “it is of the devil” he said… I asked him about all the pirated movies he had and that many of them were violent or had sexual content… and he let his children (under ten) watch them… and he said that he did not have any movie that he would not let his kids watch… But I had seen what movies he had. He also cussed like a sailor but since he was the biggest tither… no one said anything!
But he never missed a day the church door was open.
Yes, the most spiritual thing a man can do at times is go to work and make money to feed his kids… but it could also be that they forsake a meal and take that meal out to the homeless and feed them one night… I think a child can grasp that giving is a good thing and if one has much they can still sacrifice to help others.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Chris R.,
Your last post actually reminded me of what Brian McClaren wrote in “The Lost Message of Jesus”.
I would say that there is a certain percentage of Christian who are “pew-sitters” or “frozen chosen”, though. Do we tend to make a caricature out of them? Maybe. I think what McManus and others are trying to say is that churches need to make it uncomfortable for people to just be “pew-sitters”. I’ve never really heard anyone make the blanket accusation towards all Evangelicals that they are “Christians sitting in pews soaking up knowledge and never making a difference”.
I think the purpose of preaching needs to be to “prepare God’s people for works of service”. “Works of service” can be both small or large depending on God’s call on each individual’s life. I don’t think that means it’s wrong for preachers to cast a vision for larger things, though.
Tim,
I guess i am tired of those who twist the scripture to fit their lifestyle and then attack others for living it out…
blessings,
iggy
Preach it Phil!
iggy
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices–mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law–justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.”
Jesus Christ ~ The Bible
Chris,
McManus would probably agree with you 100%. I recently went to a conference with him where he was talking about how exciting it is that Christians are finally seeing Church as a community and way of live vs. an hour on Sunday. He also said that in the midst of this shift we must realize that changing the world starts with the small stuff… we all jump to the big and famous stuff too fast. You illustrated his point all too well.
Phil and Iggy,
Pastors need to make church uncomfortable for everyone. Church should not be a ’safe’ place at all.
It begins by faithfully preaching God’s law. Doing that will turn up the heat on every hearer including the pastor himself. Preaching the law properly will send the hypocrites packing to find another church where they can fool everyone into believing they are holy. Preaching the law properly destroys self-righteousness.
Do you think you are holy and righteous? Do you think your doing enough good works? Are you a good enough husband, wife, child? Have you given enough to the poor and the widows? God’s law demands perfection; perfect action and perfect motives! Anything short of that is sin. (Preach the law this way and you’ll level the playing field)
Once everyone has been slain by the preaching of the law Then you need to follow it up with a clear proclamation of the Gospel. This is the good news that Jesus Christ has lived God’s law perfectly in your place and paid for all of your transgressions on the cross with His own blood.
So many pastors make the fatal error of preaching God’s law in such a way that they take the sting out of it and then rather than placard Christ Crucified for sinners they present 3 easy applications to help you conquer your slip ups and boo boos. This is exactly the type of preaching that produces self-righteous Pharisees.
The Bible calls us to Repent and believe the gospel not pull ourselves up by our bootstraps.
As for the preaching of the bad news followed by the good news: Iggy this is precisely what Jesus did. Not only that, he taught his apostles to do the same. I recommend a paper I wrote on this.
http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/04/repentance_the_.html
Nathan – I agree with the teaching that our doctrine must affect our lives and our lives must be salt to the saltless, light to the darkness. But everything we do, our entire life, must be interconnected with the Redeemer and His ministry of reconciliation. Kindness can engender credibility, but kindness alone can not save.
Good works are the evidence of a changed life and it can be used by the Spirit as a conduit for sharing, but good works are bloodless acts of obedient goodness to the human objects of the Father’s affection. But only the blood of Jeus the Messiah of God can forgive sins. The entire world lies in the wicked One, so they are dead in tresspasses and sins.
Let us shine our lights as we share the only message that can bring saving faith.
Gee Chris R, Lutheran much?
The problem with such a methodology was explored by the Fearsome Pirate when he pointed out that after week after week of preaching Law, then Gospel no one is made all that uncomfortable by Law, nor is surprised or joyful about Gospel.
Chris R.,
It seems people are sending out mixed message regarding who should be at a church service. On one hand, we are told we should not advertise church services or have service in a bar or wherever to attract unbelievers. On the other hand, we are told to preach to everyone as they were unbelievers. Frankly, if a congregation needs to be told it is sinful every week, there might be other problems in that church.
It seems like you want pastors to take the place of the Holy Spirit. It seems like Jesus gave a general call to repentance when he was preaching, but he didn’t belittle people. When Jesus sent the 72 in Luke 10 he tells them, “When you enter a house, first say, ‘Peace to this house.’”, and later on, “When you enter a town and are welcomed, eat what is set before you. Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God is near you.’ ” He doesn’t say, “tell the people they are all sinners.” The Holy Spirit convicts of sin, it is not our job to do.
Tim,
I beg to differ. I have sat under this type of preaching for nearly 20 years and I have neither lost the fear and discomfort of the law nor the surprise and joy of the gospel.
If anything those feelings have grown stronger. Not only that, they provide a context for worship that keeps the focus on Christ and what He has accomplished.
That story NEVER grows old.
Jesus is literally the hero of every sermon preached by my pastor. I don’t go to church to get little ‘life tips’ and strategies to make my life better or feel better about myself.
I go to church to be fed God’s word (full-strength), receive Christ’s body and blood and respond in joy and worship.
Here is a link to the text of the best sermon I’ve EVER heard.
http://www.extremetheology.com/2007/06/the-most-amazin.html
Read it, then you can tell me what ‘better way’ you’ve come up with.
“there might be other problems in that church.”
There are huge problems in every American church. Divorce, adultery, pornography, debt, homosexuality, prayerlessness, bitterness, rebellion, gossip, worldliness, and on it goes.
The real danger is that most churches do not even recognize the compromised condition of the American church, and that includes the churches that people like Ken and Ingrid attend.
We are all in need of a massive revival.
Phil,
The message of Jesus and the Apostles was ‘Repent AND Believe the Gospel’
When a church preaches God’s law in a way that it convicts people of their sins and then proclaims Christ Crucified for sinners the questions about who should be attending begin to vanish.
If you are a sinner then I welcome you to attend my church. But, If you are spiritually healthy and no longer sin then you don’t need my church. In fact, if you’ve stopped sinning then you really don’t need Jesus do you?
What is the Church? Answer: It is the body of Christ.
What is a Church Service? Answer: it is a gathering of those in the Body of Christ to hear God’s word, hear that their sins are forgiven in Christ, to receive communion, worship and be instructed in sound doctrine.
Should Christians be bringing their non-believing friends to church? Absolutely! Should those non-believers have any say whatsoever about what they will hear when they attend church? Absolutely not! Christ and His Word set the agenda, not the world, satan, and his children.
Again I say that if you are a sinner I welcome you to come to my church. If you think that you are not a sinner then you’re not going to like what my church has to say. But you will be told the truth.
Rick,
I agree with you. But, here is something to consider.
God could have chosen anyone to prepare the way for Jesus’ ministry on earth and he chose John the Baptist.
What was John’s message?
It was ‘REPENT’ for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
If you want revival then preach God’s law full-strength without watering it down. Use it to expose the sin of everyone of your hearers YOURSELF included. Don’t stop til everyone becomes aware of their sin and guilt.
Then comfort them with the message that Jesus Christ paid for every one of their sins by becoming a curse for them on the cross.
Don’t tell them that God grades on a curve or that everything will be okay because they have a good heart. Tell them the truth, like John the Baptist then offer them the hope held out by the apostle Peter at Pentecost of a full-pardon won for them on the cross.
Pharisees make the law manageable.
Sadducees say the law isn’t as bad as it sounds if you interpret it with an open mind.
Christians are neither Pharisees nor Sadducees. They know the law isn’t manageable. They know it is far worse than it sounds. They are broken and know they stand guilty before their Creator. They cling to the mercy and grace held out to them in the Gospel.
Chris R.
I’m not suggesting that sermons should be about living a life better, or more effectively or anything like that. I am suggesting that the form needs to differ from week to week.
Tim, have you ever heard Joel Osteen? Talk about you carbon copy every week concerning “Your Best Life Now”. On that we all can agree.
Yeah I watch him on TV from time to time (I have a masochistic habit of watching really terrible preaching on TV, its a compulsion I can’t help it). At one point I was clocking his minutes/scripture reading and it was about 1 scripture per 20 minutes. While he doesn’t quite cross over into health and wealth (at least from what I’ve seen) he gets close to that line.
Tim,
Law and gospel preaching is not a formula. A pastor who preaches 50% Law then 50% gospel in some mechanical fashion needs to be fired.
Being a pastor means caring for sheep. Some flocks need more law so that than can truly taste the sweetness of the gospel. Other flocks have been abused by law only sermons and a more delicate touch and hence more gospel. But neither should be omitted. Both are necessary.
Same in our evangelism. Some already no they are a sinner and giving them more law is not what is needed. They need to hear the comforting words of the gospel.
Others are smug and self-righteous and are completely blind to their sin and the wrath they are storing up for themselves. Those people need the law to hit them like a 2×4 between the eyes before they hear the gospel.
I think that sentence should have read, “some already know they are a sinner”.
I’m telling you I think I’m getting old.
Chris,
First off, I hate sermons like “five steps to a healthy marriage”. I don’t think they are unbiblical, after all Paul took time out to address life issues all throughout the canon. The scriptures deals with so much more than simply repenting and believing the gospels. Yes, that is the heart of the book, but not the only thing in it.
Second, I see Jesus healing people before he brought on the “bad news” as you call it. In fact, he usually healed, forgave or blessed those who came to him before he told them the “bad news”. Sometimes the bad news was simply “go and sin no more”.
Third, it is not that “telling unbelievers that they are sinners that need to repent is angry, hateful, judgmental” as you say in your post. It is HOW this is done that is angry, hateful and judgmental. I cannot imagine Jesus shouting from a pulpit that we are all vile sinners and are in desperate need of repentance or he would throw us to the fiery pits of hell. But as I travel the country, I find alot of pastors who do just that. I don’t know too many non believers that want to go to a church just to be reminded of what they already know. People are looking for hope, not for a chastisement.
Lastly, I kinda feel sorry for churches that simply remind believers that they are sinners. From my study of the scriptures, Christ does not want us to dwell on that fact. We have been saved by grace from ourselves to do good works in order to glorify God.
that’s just my take.
Chris, I liked your last post. I think that is a much more balanced view.
Chris,
“You’re caricature of Christians sitting in pews soaking up knowledge and never making a difference is so myopic that it is both laughable and utterly reprehensible. It makes me want to vomit.”
Except that it’s not laughable at all. It’s been something all of us have repeatedly seen at churches for many years. It’s what makes US want to vomit — or make a difference.
Jesus had the same indictment towards the Pharisees and Sadduccees — that they knew tons of Scripture and theology, but that it didn’t translate into their lives and attitudes.
It’s a pity that so many churches — seeker, fundie, charismatic, you-name-it — all have the same problem: people who happily attend week after week, nodding in assent to whatever is said, and yet walk out the doors each week and make no effort to apply what they’ve learned — until the next gathering of Christians where they repeat the same process again.
Nathan – I hate the five steps to a healthy marriage series also. Everyone knows the steps are infinite!
Chris R.
The interesting thing is that “repent, the Kingdom is at hand.” meant more than just repent from sin. The biggest issue was not that they sinned, but that they were a divided kingdom under Rome. They were not following God and the Pharisees and different groups sought out political ways be it emphasis on obeying the Law so that they could make God move… or accept being captives and work with Rome as did the Sadducees… or become politically violent as were the Zealots.
It that each person was following their own kingdom which was a greater “sin” as they were not seeking God in Truth and in Spirit. Jesus was the Light of the world and the world did not even know Him. The reason for baptising was not to cleans sin… as it was in the OT the prerequisite that a preist be washed before they entered the temple and gave sacrifice. Jesus was our High Priest, and before he began Him ministry was also so washed. If it was to wash sins… what sins were washed from Jesus?
So repentance as we use it today is much narrower than what was going on. Yes, it was about sin, but it was more the sin of the Nation of Israel than the sin of each individual. For those who were baptised it was about who you identified with. A person baptised by John aligned that they were looking for the Messiah, the Lamb of God… to take away the sins of the world and set things right.
To Repent, Kingdom of God as Jesus preached was more to do with coming unto Him as Messiah and under God.
When we just focus on getting sins forgiven we lose much in the story of our salvation. It becomes all about “ME” yet when one sees in light of my sins forgiven so that I am part of something huge going gone, it is about God and His workings which i am blessed to be a part of. Humility then become the greater value which leads us to serve out or love and not obligation or hopes to gain some sort of special “favor” from God.
Now, back to the main topic…
Now I have noticed that some seem to get really upset when others say that their forgiveness is a great place to start but is not the entire story… they then say we are too Kingdom focused and that we do not understand that is all in the future and is only spiritual now… (John MacArthur teaches this)
Yet, Jesus ushered His Kingdom in from the beginning of His incarnation, and it entered physically as the stone was rolled away and He rose from the dead as the first fruit of the New Creation.
I hear many who are no longer (as I am no longer) care to be spectators but want to become active in this Kingdom as it is Now. God’s Kingdom is eternal without beginning or end… and it is the eternal Now that we have entered as Children of God.
I saddens me to hear some preach the Law… as some do that we must obey it. We are not called to obey the Law… but to obey the higher law of Love. When we miss that our focus is way off and we seem more interested in eating each other to hurt one another than eating of Body of Christ for Life’ sake.
Blessings,
iggy
Rick,
“Nathan – I hate the five steps to a healthy marriage series also. Everyone knows the steps are infinite!”
I just love her as Christ loved the church…
if that does not work I then use the Law.
LOL!
blessings,
iggy
“we are too Kingdom focused and that we do not understand that is all in the future and is only spiritual now… (John MacArthur teaches this)”
No, he doesn’t. Right in line with how the Gospel has always been preached MacArthur teaches there are two aspects of the Gospel. The salvific aspect for the salvation of men’s souls and then there is the social aspect of how this is then lived out in the lives of believers hear and now.
Where do you think the vast majority of institutes of higher learning, societal improvements and hospitals came from? From Christianity. That false converts of a semi-pelagian non-gospel can’t do in their own power what Christ has commanded his genuine followers to do is no reason for the Emergent cult to misrepresent the true Gospel message men like MacArthur preach.
Iggy,
Your last comment was very self-contradictory and confusing. I also felt like you were channeling the spirit of Brian McLaren.
So why don’t you tell me what this verse means?
Mark 1:4 John the Baptist appeared in the wilderness preaching a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. 5 And all the country of Judea was going out to him, and all the people of Jerusalem; and they were being baptized by him in the Jordan River, confessing their sins.
Chris R,
Again, the definition of “sins” was broader than just doing bad things… it was the condition of Israel in that they did not believe God would save them from Rome. Even the ones who did sought God on their own terms. That was much of the “sin” that was confessed. It was identifying themselves with the Messiah and forsakeing other ways to bring back God as their King.
I am not sure how that is contradictory at all. In fact I see it complimentary. John’s baptism was of the remission of sins. Jesus being the Lamb of God took away our sins. So also these are two different baptism… as one can see as they read of Apollo’s in Acts 18… who needed to learn further about what Jesus did though he grasped and taught John’s baptism very well… John’s baptism is not the same as the one we have now… though the Kingdom is still the same Kingdom… john prepared the way for the King… and His Kingdom.
Blessings,
iggy
“Again, the definition of “sins†was broader than just doing bad things… it was the condition of Israel in that they did not believe God would save them from Rome. Even the ones who did sought God on their own terms. That was much of the “sin†that was confessed. It was identifying themselves with the Messiah and forsakeing other ways to bring back God as their King.”
Iggy – what?
Ken,
I a recent interview John stated that was his view very clearly. In fact it was as he was critiquing (very poorly) out of context statements by Brian McLaren.
If you need the reference it is at The Way of the Master.
http://www.wayofthemasterradio.com/podcast/2007/05/28/may-28-2007-hour-1/
John does exactly as he claims Brian does… to me this was very revealing as to who John MacArthur is… and his theology. he critiques Brian as saying the Kingdom is now as well as in the future… then state clearly his position that it is in the future and is only spiritual now.
Also, Ray Comfort shouts down some poor gay goth kid who in the end does not seem to come to Jesus with all the shouting… but it is rather entertaining to here Rays Scottish accent as he screams the law and then “softens” and tells of Gods grace… if one listens this it the formula they use!
Be Blessed and listen carefully…
iggy
Rick,
in the old testament you will see that God punished Israel for their sin… very rarely did He punish on an individual basis… we cannot think that God changed this can we?
It was about King Jesus coming to claim Israel and Israel denying Him as King… in that then Jesus came to the Gentiles….
this is pretty basic bible if you ask me and I am not sure why all the ????’s
iggy
Because John the Baptist was Elijah who was to show the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the WORLD, it was nothing to do with nationalistic Israel from God’s side. Man, sometimes we make a glorious simplicity into something that satifies our fleshly desire to find some secret.
When John the Baptist came on the scene God had not spoken in quite a while and John was to be used to point out Jesus, nothing about Israel. He must increase and I must decrease. Whether John fully understood the eternal implications or if he somehow thought about Israel is irrelevant and unknowable, from God’s perspective JTB’s ministry was the announcing of the Lord Jesus.
Ummm,
Elijah was the prophet of Israel who was there as God’s representative… John was the “Elijah” of Malachi(?) who would usher Jesus the Messiah… and King…
Are you stating Jesus was not The King of Israel?
Also, much of what you are stating is what I said… so agian I am a bit confuse by you at this point.
Blessings,
iggy
Remember the Malachi had prophesied that before the Messiah came, Elijah the prophet must come (the Jews still observe this in the Passover). Jesus in Mk. 9 said that it was John the Baptist and they did not recognize him.
Iggy – you say God rarely punished individuals? Have you read the many times in the Old Testament where God punished individuals, including kings? Have you read the law? It dealt with hundreds of individual sins. Where did you get thye notion that God punished nationally and very rarely individually?
Rick,
Again, I have not denied that individuals are not punished… but you seem to be denying that Israel was punished as a nation… and that seems strange to me.
I am well aware of the prophecies of Malachi… but again you still seem to deny that Jesus was the King of Israel… and that makes me wonder what you think was happening on the triumphal entry… where Jesus the King that was exiled returned on a donkey as Kings from exile had.
Paul states over and over that Jesus came for the Jews then for the gentiles… he is speaking nationally and not just individually. It works out as both.
I think that you miss also that part of the punishment for the wicked kings of Israel was that they as a nation were lead captive into Babylon, Assyria, and later by Rome… God again using nations to punish Israel as a …. Nation… funny how that works again isn’t it. the purpose of the prophets was to get the PEOPLE to turn… that again is about the nation of Israel and not just each individuals…
Also, Moses guided the Hebrews and waited until the individuals from the previous generation had all died off… I suppose at least a few were those who sought after God under Moses as individuals… but it was not until God had purified them as a whole group that He let THEM into the promise land… that their they became a Nation.
So, again, you are separating things that work together… maybe there is a bit too much Americanized rugged individualism in your theology to see the big picture of Israel as a nation that was to give the news of the One True God to the gentiles who instead as a nation separated themselves and did not fulfill their Abrahamic calling and covenant… in that Jesus came to fulfill their calling as the New Israel.
Again, this seem basic bible but I understand some traditions fail to teach these things.
Blessings,
iggy
I did not deny anything, I said the nation of Israel was a sidenote to the mission of the Son of God.
“Again, this seem basic bible but I understand some traditions fail to teach these things.” Well, then I guess we should all be glad that the cult of the Emergent Church has finally come along to free the Church from the gates of Hades.
Rick,
I see that they are the major factor as we are only saved from the promise of the covenant God made with Abraham…
and that promise was that He would be a father of many nations… and out of his seed would Messiah come.
The Nation of Israel is the pivot point in which God was able to send His Son. To dismiss this seems a bit to miss the importance of the Abrahamic promise.
Ken,
Your view of Christianity is very narrow… and it is legalist and you are too blind to see it. In every sentence you only sound like a deranged lunatic who is paranoid that emergents lurk behind every evil… I might remind you your battle is not against flesh and blood… it is against power and principalities of this world.
You seem to only be a man obsessed with his own delusions and in need a medication.
Blessings,
iggy
iggy,
Save the amateur shrink rap. You are right about this however, the “battle is not against flesh and blood… it is against power and principalities of this world.”
And right now one of the major places they are working is through the emerging rebellion against the Bible spreading its spiritual cancer through the Body of Christ.
No, Ken,
Right now we have brothers attacking the Body of Christ like a cancer and no regard to the damage they are causing. They also seem to disregard biblical truth in that Mercy triumphs judging and they seem to love to show partiality as they do not want “sinners” in their churches…
the cancer is there alright and you are in the midst and spreading it.
Jesus came to save sinners… and you advocate keeping the “church” pure by driving them out! How dare you decide who is in and who is out… you are not God… and God seems to be more accepting of people than you are…
Again, you have decided to harden your heart… which is rebellion and not hear what the spirit speaks to you… you slander and lie… You serve APATE and serve up your brothers and sisters at her alter of deceit.
Beware when you bear false witness… for if you hate your brother, the Truth is not in you… I fear for you… and plead the Blood of Christ over and for you to come out of the spiritual bondage of the religious spirit you are under.
Be Blessed,
iggy
iggy,
Now we’ve gotten somewhere. You say: “Right now we have brothers attacking the Body of Christ like a cancer and no regard to the damage they are causing.”
Right. You say that’s me and I say it’s you. We could both be wrong, but only one of us is right. And I can live with that. Friend, one day we’ll see who was on the right side.
Ken,
have you not read that NO ONE IS RIGHTEOUS? that means not one of us is right… and that is why we need Jesus… so we are far apart as i serve the living risen Jesus of the bible and you attack me and others like me for doing that. Just because you thing your righteousness if greater than others.
It is only in Christ Jesus anyone is right… and that is because He is Right.
So, that is the reason you miss the point… you still think YOU are righteous in your own eyes and I cling to the righteousness of Christ Jesus as I have none in and of myself.
May you eyes be opened to your own self righteousness and that you cling to the righteousness of Christ instead.
Be Blessed,
iggy
iggy,
“so we are far apart as i serve the living risen Jesus of the bible and you attack me and others like me for doing that.” I just got a letter from a Mormon that said virtually the same thing. Having studies Comparative Religion for twenty years I know a statement like that proves nothing.
And this just shows you really have zero idea about who I really am: “Just because you thing your righteousness if greater than others.” Looks to me as if you are blinded by your own spiritual pride…as are so many in the emerging existential rebellion against the Bible…
Ken, how is it that you’re unable to deny self-righteousness without being self-righteous? As a lover of delicious irony I find your posts to be an all you can eat buffet of gluttony.
Tim – you are so in the big leagues of creative hyperbole.
“As a lover of delicious irony I find your posts to be an all you can eat buffet of gluttony. ”
All that imagery to point out hypocrisy. How about:
As an admirer of artistic irony, I find your posts rival Rembrandt himself.
As a taster of the juice of irony, I find your posts to be a classic wine with a fabulous bouquet.
As an addict of automotive irony, I find your posts to be vintage msucle cars.
As a lover of ironic jewelry, I find your posts to be the Hope Diamond.
Sorry, Tim, I just got carried away with your great line!
Tim,
Apparently you see what you want to see. So have at it…
Henry,
You have the soul of a poet. If you keep this up I’ll have to repent of covetousness.
Ken,
I really do love you in the Name of Jesus…
Be Blessed,
iggy