Theology Makes Ingrid Mad
Over at Slice many panties were gotten into many bunches over the recent interview by Christianity Today of Sinead O’Connor. Lets go to the commentary.
Christianity Today is apparently convinced that Sinead O’Connor is someone that Christians need to listen to. Why else would they interview someone who is clearly a confused and make-it-up-as-you-go New Spirituality adherent/rock star?
Now why might Christians be interested in hearing an interview by Sinead O’Connor? Have Christians decided that bald chicks are just really fascinating? Maybe Bono has left Christians in general wanting more Irish musicians? Or, could it possibly be because she recently released a double CD entitled “Theology†which includes many songs that are straight scripture set to music, as well as traditional spirituals such as “the Rivers of Babylonâ€. Gee, I can’t imagine why Christians would be interested in that. But, naturally, Christianity’s blandest firebrand has an apoplectic fit over it.
Are Christians today that desperate for something new to listen to?
Well Inggy, not every Christian is trying to pour amber over our grandfather’s church and pretend like that pleases Christ. So yes, when an artist of considerable God-given talent produces a work rooted in the word of God, we are desperate to listen to it.
Note that CT never bothers to point out for readers her heresy that Jesus is just an energy force, that Buddhists can tap into Him as well and that God doesn’t judge people so you can live any way you want to.
Uh… well, I guess in the sense that the writer doesn’t commentate on O’Connor’s views, yeah CT never bothers to point those things out. Probably because it’s a straight interview in which O’Connor herself says these things. There’s no commentary or analysis on anything by CT, its all O’Connor who says all of those things herself. What does the Big I want here? For CT to simply repeat what O’Connor had just said? Have I mentioned that in many languages the word “Ingrid†can be directly translated as “absurd�
Come to think of it, Sinead sounds a lot like the New Pastors of today. Her theology is the same as what we’re getting from emerging church gurus nationwide. Now we know why CT billboards her. She is the face of the new evangelical. With her social gospel, her twisted definition of Jesus, her foul mouth and her embrace of the New Age cosmic christ, she could start a church and have a guaranteed membership in days.
Ah, a classic of the watchbloggies everywhere, the outright slander. How is O’Connor associated with the emergent/emerging church again? Her background is Roman Catholic, CT is by no means an emergent/emerging publications… so where’s the connection? What’s even funnier is no where in the entire interview does O’Connor make reference to the “social gospel†or even doing good works at all. Did Ingrid even bother to read the interview, or was her outrage alone good enough for this post? Oh right, stupid question, this is just another outrageous post, filled with outrage for the sake of outrage.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
70 Comments(+Add)
Actually, because of Ingrid’s piece, I’m probably going to buy the album. O’Connor wasn’t really on my radar before that, and I probably wouldn’t have seen the CT interview without Ingrid pointing it out. It seems like a cool album to me.
Supposedly only morally perfect people with 100% correct orthodoxy can create good music, according to Ingrid. Ironically, David would not have been allowed to write the Psalms if it were up to her.
I’m not saying O’Connor is correct – some of the stuff she says in the interview is definitely out there. That doesn’t mean her music can’t be beautiful or meaningful. I don’t know how Ingrid is connecting to her the emerging church. I’m sure it all makes sense in her mind.
It’s a Sinead O’Connor mashed topato man!
(I hope soooomeone remembers this reference)
Phil,
I did the same thing. I snagged a copy late last night, and what I’ve listened to, I love. Rivers of Babylon has always been a favorite of mine and she does it justice.
She tore up a picture of the pope, vicar of the Apostate church of Rome [tm]. That alone should earn her some slack from the hyper-MacArthurians.
RayJr,
I think the only we she could earn points with them is by tearing up a picture of Brian McClaren, Rob Bell, or Erwin Mcmanus. But then again, she is a woman, so she probably wouldn’t be under “authority” when she did it. It’s probably just safe to assume she’s one of the non-Elect…
I read the interview and it seems that CT asks some really good questions. It’s hardly a ringing endorsement of her theology. The interviewer wants to get at her beliefs.
I have a question for those of you who are interested in this album of O’Connor’s: Is there someone who isn’t a Christian who could produce/create a “christian” or religous-based album that you would choose not to listen to because of who the artist is?
For example, if Elton John (practicing homosexual) did an album of old spirituals or if Marilyn Manson recorded an album of psalms set to music, would you endorse those albums as something we should be interested in? (Please don’t focus on the music styles – only on the artist as they live their life.)
Thanks, deborah
If they were excellent works of art I would.
This exchange in Mark 9 seems relevant:
And then this out Philippians 1:
Are you saying that Sinead O’Connor is doing miracles or preaching Christ?
Are you saying the scriptures are only of value if they’re sung/read/published by the right type of person?
I buy good music from all types of artists. I love all music. I have a good collection of Classical music. Many of them were not people that I think were living right lives but the music they produced was good. Some were Homosexuals, some were angry, some were deviant, but the music is good. I buy based purely on the music
O’Connor wrote the song “Thank You for Loving Me,” which has since been performed by the David Crowder Band with the addition of “My Jesus I love thee, I know thou art mine…” at the end. It’s an unbelievably simple and beautiful song.
There should not be a question that God can use non-Christians, or even *gasp* people who have incorrect theology, to bring Himself glory.
Really, if you haven’t heard the song, you should listen to it. If it doesn’t move you in its simplicity and power, I don’t know what to say.
Joe, I specified “christian” album for that reason, my concern is that she is targeting christians (per the interview).
Tim, I would have to take exception to the phrase “right type of person” as I label myself a sinner and not the “right type of person”. To be honest, I’m not sure if I can put my finger on exactly what bothers me about her album.
Maybe it is a prickling of the Holy Spirit or my Calvanist upbringing rearing it’s ugly head, but something about a blatent non-christian creating a “religious” album, marketing it to christians and having christians embrace it worries me on a deep level.
deborah
Also, I have to ask, if lifestyle is an issue that should stop Christians from listening to artists, where is the line drawn? Because if we require perfection from artists then performances of the Psalms are out, in fact, I’m having problems thinking of a single work that would qualify.
So which sins are disqualifying and why?
Tim, I don’t think anyone said there are disqualifying sins.
Unless you’re able to give a “why” I’m having a hard time figuring out why this would be a problem.
You’re basically saying if this exact same work had been produced by a Christian it’d be ok, but otherwise its, at least, questionable.
I guess what I tried to say and did a poor job of saying is that I don’t make a distinction between “Christian” music and “non-Christian” music. It’s either good music and lyrics I can live with or it’s not.
Tim, I didn’t say that it was a problem, I’m saying that something bothers me about it. Maybe it is feeling like a targeted market demographic, or maybe it seems like hypocrisy to me, I’m not sure. I wish I could explain it better.
Joe, I understand your position and most of the time I try to treat music that way as well.
deborah
Especially in the area of music with intentionally scriptural or God-centered themes, i.e., the “religious album” as Deborah called it, the only qualification I have is that it helps a Christian into a deeper, truer, worship experience or relationship with God. If it aids with worshipping God, creating reverence, etc., I guess I don’t care much who sings it or what their intentions were in creating it. It gets me that some people are able to take a terrorist-caused catastrophe and say things like “God has a plan for this and it will ultimately bring Him glory in some way,” but reject the same possibility when a non-Christian singer dares to sing “religious” music.
By the way, I am not attributing this position to Deborah.
Demographic marketing doesn’t bother me nearly as much as the uncritical tastes of Christians in the past. There should be a higher standard on what we consume than simply calling it Christian. I remember when I was a freshman and MTV did an interview with artists about Christian music and one of them basically said “if you can’t cut it, just go Christian” as a recipe for selling albums.
My problem with a “non-Christian” writing a Christian album is that we are giving that particular artist way too much influence in our lives. Okay, so a teenager in your youthgroup likes the album — then this artist teaches somewhere and says some crazy stuff — then as a youth leader, you have a very difficult time convincing the teenager that his beloved artist taught him incorrectly. That’s a major problem with “liberal” art and music. They are passed off as acceptable because “it’s art and who are you to say that this kind of art is wrong.” Consquently, people with wrong theology are allowed to gain influence — just my thoughts.
Remember, you don’t need an army to start a revolution, a really talented musician, poet or writer will do the trick…
Hmmm…
to the excellent question from Deborah. (Sincerely, I mean that.)
I would say:
It depends. But I don’t know if “lifestyle” is that hard of a category to evaluate as a basis for purchase, etc.
We thrive and universally (almost) appreciate Mozart. Some of his “religious” music was written in a style that actually pokes fun at the themes he was dealing with–not to mention his personal lifestyle proclivities. Liszt was the Elvis of his day, ripping up concerts and being a man-whore all across Europe. They wrote religious music for the Church.
In his day, J.S. Bach was criticized for not respecting “THE HYMNS!” of the period and wanting to write new music. He was known for being tempermental and insubordinate to the God ordained authority over him.
Cowper, the hymn writer, was deeply emotionally disturbed, constantly doubted his salvation (to some blaspheming the Doctrines of Grace by doing so)…
One of the faves on this site–Luther. He comported himself sinfully–says some. He wrote great hymns.
The Wesleys had horrific theology in the eyes of some–and a methodology that follows that is criticized. WE don’t think twice about enjoying their music.
Marketing issues aside…I just don’t know if the consideration of lifestyle is some kind of “trump” card. A consideration to be sure…but not some make or break category to me.
Marilyn Manson…the psalms…well…I’d have to hear from him what his intent, motive, etc. is. Especially since he has bashed Xians specifically in public statements.
Elton John…would be hard to believe because of his public statements against organized religion as well. But I’d want to hear from him the “why’s and wherefores”.
I think that is what “discernment” looks like. Being measured, listening, reflecting on Scripture in light of what we have heard. And then making a decision without rancor, name calling, etc.
Also, I wish Ingrid would really believe in the sovereignty of God. God is in control. Even if CT was wrong to let O’Connor speak for herself without analysis, etc. Isn’t it the Holy Spirit’s job to convict, change, etc? It’s the Spirit of that Sovereign Lord. The fact that there is this kind of conniption again from her reveals that “sovereignty” is really about control…
seriously, lady…have some faith. Ingrid needs to start living the logical implications of her theology.
If God is sovereign, it doesn’t me YOU get to be sovereign with Him. It means you’re free to discern, love and live your life with joy, in accordance to your convictions with gentleness, kindness, patience, etc. etc.
And if CT really bothers you…pray for them. If you’re so right about everything…why the tantrum?
Nathan Dude, thanks. I think a few people got caught up in my “as they live their life” phrase. I didn’t mean their life-style, I meant who the artist was as opposed to the style of music they produce.
deborah
Clearly,
I’m not sure how those concerns are valid in this case when the songs are scripture set to music, or how they would be valid in the case of traditional spirituals, as Deborah put forth in her hypothetical.
Deborah says: “Tim, I didn’t say that it was a problem, I’m saying that something bothers me about it. Maybe it is feeling like a targeted market demographic, or maybe it seems like hypocrisy to me, I’m not sure. I wish I could explain it better”.
Deborah, you’ve actually explained it quite well. Fortunately, I would venture to say that you are being advised by the Holy Spirt and are actually listening to Him.
I liked your Elton John example. Sinead is also a professing, open and proud homosexual, singing theology, I guess there’s no hypocracy there! And yeah, I can already here the righteous indignant question “Is every Christian singer perfect or sinless?” No they’re not, however they are not boasting of thier open un-repentent sin either.
Hmmm, I guess something else to embrace would be an un-repentent Marilyn Manson preaching the Word of God at your church. After all, It’s all about the message right? Goodness, I had better not be giving the Purpose Driven folks any more ideas of whom they have entertaiing their flocks. I’m sure Marilyn would probably draw a pretty good crowd, if “marketed” right.
Mark 12:
28And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” 29Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” 32And the scribe said to him, “You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that He is one, and there is no other besides Him. 33And to love Him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.” 34And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.
I am going to run the risk of ticking off some of my co-workers here but…..
I bought Theology the day it was released. I also own a couple of other cd’s by Sinead. God gave her a great talent and she needs to know that He gave it to her to glorify Him.
I am a worship leader, and I wholeheartedly agree that Ms O’connor needs some serious lessons in scriptural/spiritual/doctrinal Truth. (My biblical stance is well known.) I believe that once she hears the Truth, which she will never hear in the rcc, she will come to saving faith. Romans 10:17
I pray for all misguided musicians/celebrities, as the gift of music, and the talents of singing and playing instruments are the giftings of the prophets.
I noticed some comments on a previous post here referring to contemporary christian musicians and worship leaders. I am no fan of Crowder, Tomlin, Hill Songs etc as most of what they write is touchy-feely pablum. So it is to the church’s shame when Sinead O’Connor produces a work that has more scripture, accurately exegeted, and more worshipfully presented, than what the CCM boy wonders produce.
This is why we write our own music at our church, or sing pre-19th century hymns re-arranged in a modern musical context. It’s the Word!!
Her song “If You Had A Vineyard” (the acoustic version) is a most beautiful and powerful song.
If You Had A Vineyard {O’Connor}
If You had a vineyard
On a fruitful hill
And You fenced it and cleared it
Of all stones until
You planted it
With the choicest of vine
And You even built a tower
And a press to make wine
And You looked that it would bring forth sweet grapes
And it gave only wild grapes
What would You say?
Jerusalem and Judah
You be the judges I pray
Between me and my vineyard
This is what God says
What more could I have done in it
That I did not do in it?
Why when I ask it for sweetness
It brings only bitterness
For the vineyard of the Lord of Hosts
Is the house of Israel
And the men of Judah
His pleasant plant
And he looks for justice but beholds oppression
And he hopes for equality but hears a cry
Jerusalem and Judah
This is God’s reply
Sadness will come to those who build house to house
And lay field to field ’til there’s room
For none but You to dwell in the land
Oh in the land
And sadness will come to those who call evil good
And good evil
Who present darkness as light and light as darkness
Who present as sweetness only the things which are
bitterness
For the vineyard of The Lord of Hosts
Is the house of Israel
And the men of Judah his pleasant plant
Oh that my eyes were a fountain of tears
That I might weep for my poor people
For every boot stamped with fierceness
For every cloak rolled in blood
Jerusalem and Judah
I’d cry if I could
The interviewer and the publication should have issued a caveat at the beginning of the piece. When you publish something like this without a word of correction, you give the impression that you tacitly endorse all that is said.
Pray for the souls of those who are “not far from” the Kingdom.
Chris P.,
Once again, the end must be near. You and I agree on something.
Except I’m surprised that you don’t like Tomlin. I’ve found him to be one of the better lyricists in modern worship music. I don’t like the pablum either, but maybe we should stop there before your credentials get tarnished any further.
P.S. Have you heard Townsend’s “In Christ Alone”? Now THAT is good lyric-writing!
And if my friends The PennyMerchants actually DO record an album of worship “cover tunes”, they promised me that they would definitely include “In Christ Alone”, and their version is not cheesy at all.
In the parable of the sower and the seed, Jesus explains that there is one kind of seed which falls on various types of ground. When it comes to the “good ground” He never said that the sower prepared the land for planting. The sower simply sows. Who prepares the soil??
I ask all those who profess the sovereignty of God that you allow Him to sovereignly work. If she comes to the knowledge of salvation, rejoice with the angels. If one is truly redeemed then one will repent from and forsake their own ways. This is God’s sovereign promise which is sovereignly accomplished by the Holy Spirit alone.
There was a group of hyper-calvinists way back in the day who refused to even preach the Gospel for fear that they would interfere with God’s election.
God spoke through Caiphas, Balaam (a false prophet) and even Balaam’s donkey, to show His sovreignty.
Job 42:
1Then Job answered the LORD and said:
2″I know that you can do all things,
and that no purpose of yours can be thwarted.
3′Who is this that hides counsel without knowledge?’
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.
4′Hear, and I will speak;
I will question you, and you make it known to me.’
5I had heard of you by the hearing of the ear,
but now my eye sees you;
6therefore I despise myself,
and repent in dust and ashes.”
Kent, I want to make it clear that my issue really isn’t with someone who is in sin (as in practicing homosexual) as I find sin within myself all the time. My issue is with non-christians producing music that are simply embraced by christians without any thought to who is creating the albums. (and now that I think about it – giving money and therefore a platform to express their views)
I am not saying that O’Connor’s album is bad or christians shouldn’t listen to it, or that Elton John shouldn’t produce a album of spirituals. I was responding to a feeling and wanted to have a conversation to see what other people thought and felt.
If we stopped listening to music created by sinners we would find it easier to put out our ears since none exists. I have found some of the most spiritual songs in the least spiritual places – “Hurt” by NIN and Cash would be one.
deborah
Robby
I do agree that the end is near.
I will re-visit “In Christ Alone”
I find a lot of worship music today to be extremely formulaic.
One more thought to Tim Reed; I think you and all here would better served if you accorded some respect to Ingrid. The panties in a bunch/knot/twist references weren’t funny when the long lost Chris Lane was displaying his ignorance and liberalism and they haven’t gotten better with time.
I bet none of you would say this to your wife/mother/sisters or female co-congregants.
Chris P,
Its a pretty common expression, and hardly begins to touch the level of disrespect she’s shown to so many others. And look on the brightside, unlike C?N, and SoL, there’s no deception or slander in it.
Tim,
“I’m not sure how those concerns are valid in this case when the songs are scripture set to music, or how they would be valid in the case of traditional spirituals, as Deborah put forth in her hypothetical.”
Tim, I’m not addressing the music — I’m saying that music is influence. We need to be very careful about who we allow to influence not only us, but especially those in our charge (our congregations, our youth, etc.). Allowing someone like this to influence is really a large lapse in discernment.
Nice song, lost woman. Be careful. Mormons write beautiful music also.
Chris P.,
Once again, we agree. “Formulaic” Christian music, including and maybe especially worship, is putting it politely.
Have you heard Crowder’s “A Beautiful Collision”? It’s musically creative, breaks the formulaic approach, and I’d encourage you to give it a listen. It’s a bit of a concept album, and therefore should be listened to in its entirety (on good headphones) to hear the full effect of how he weaves things together.
I don’t have any of his earlier albums, so I can’t speak for them, but “Collision” is possibly one of my favourite Christian albums in the past ten years.
P.S. Great thoughts on the sower/seed/ground.
chris p,
I appreciate your thoughts on this issue–and the tone too!
Clearly,
OR…is the failure to have a measured, deliberate, open and discerning conversation about Sinead a failure of responsibility to ourselves and our charges to engage reality as it is not as we would have it to be, and consider the needs of the world, sinead and our own place in proclaiming the gospel?
I just think of all the Xian friends I have who struggle now with even the simplest discernment issues because in the name of “protecting our charges” they were never equipped to face and navigate through the world they inevitably have to handle and interact with. In the name of purity and protection and discernment they were never gently guided to exercise their “spiritual muscles”, instead having others make decisions for them.
thoughts?
to be clear…I DO think music is an influence. We should be circumspect in our reflection, but nuanced…reality is much murkier than we realize at times. Hence this whole discussion!
nathan dude,
My only thought is this: we are drawing lines in different regions of the sand. We both agree in principle, but not in practice.
It’s a tough balance to attain — but if someone’s life isn’t really characterized by the gospel and its implications for purity of life, language, and morality, then I think we could both agree that they are bad influences.
On ingrid’s tantrums…
those are descriptions of her actual behavior…not attributions to her motives, etc.
Hence the reaction…she seems a bit overwrought and reactive…consistently.
It’s one thing to disagree and express concern. It’s another to wail, moan, freak out, call names and casually throw around comments about “the hiss” and “smelling sulphur” etc. It’s just unnecessary, inflammatory and doesnt’ lend credibility to even the things she rightly has a problem with. See. I’m saying she does get some things right.
I don’t agree with henry’s position on women, but he has logically carried his position to its end. And it does seem ironic, within such a position, that Ingrid goes on her tears–rebuking male leaders and even attacking their manhood.
It would be unconscionable to most of us if we responded to her attacks by questioning her femininity and making cracks about her trying to “prove her manhood”, theorizing about freudian possibilities that fuel her “ministry”, etc.
Maybe the “panties” comment is too gender specific and thus borderline sexist to some ears…
at least no PMS comments have been made, to my knowledge. It would easy and really cheap.
Chris P, even if you agree with the conclusions/critique of SOL, Crosstalk, etc. do you ever feel a little apprehension at how it seems a little like “loose cannon” ministry?
I mean, what if Ingrid turned her sights on your church?
There just doesn’t seem to be any real accountability–taking on the Church from an almost untouchable bully pulpit. I’m not trying to bait you. I just wonder if you ever have any kind of concern or disagreement with her style and/or substance?
I sometimes wonder what would happen if Ingrid’s pastor–assuming he knows her and knows of her show and listens to it–said:
Ingrid, I agree with you…on everything you critique. But your tone and your gender mean you need to be–at the very least–careful in how you comport yourself. In some cases, in respect to theology, you should bring on a male voice to speak, rebuke and teach while you model submission and learning with all quietness over the airwaves….
I just wonder how that would go over…
Either way, I’m an egalitarian and I don’t care what the plumbing of the speaker is.
It’s just ironic how this looks like hypocrisy–angry fits of it.
clearly,
good words that highlight the conundrum of our life. We need to proceed calmly, cooly and with serious thought. Thank you for your words and sharing your perspective with me.
Chris P: “I bet none of you would say this to your wife/mother/sisters or female co-congregants.”
Actually he says it to me all the time! Gasp! Oh the horror! Get a sense of humor!
Can I say I hate it when we replace Christ with an X. Hate that.
It is so difficult to cull out some of the issues I can agree with on some of these blogs. They are lost in the jungle of nastiness, pride, stupid posts, nit picking, and a general aura of pomposity.
And the devotional posts are almost like finding a nickel in a spittoon. Sinead O’conner? Who in their right Christian mind cares?
I am waiting for the album entitled “Ossy Osborne sings O Holy Night”.
Well Tim at least we know where you stand. Don’t you guys love to talk about the speck and the log?
I believe that Ingrid was addressing the lack of discernment on the part of CT and the interviewer. I would not present Sinead to our church as someone to follow. I am speaking of personal experience as a christian and a musician.
Rick, I am always careful. You would think in nearly 5 years of blogging and battling that my “theology” would be quite well known. I live in Mormon country. I know the battlefield.
Thanks to everyone for their kind words. However you should stop it as my “rep” will be thoroughly destroyed forever.
Romans 14:
20 Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. 21It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble.[a] 22The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves.
1 Cor 8:
1Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up. 2If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But if anyone loves God, he is known by God 4Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” 5For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth–as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”– 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
7However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. 9But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. 10For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols? 11And so by your knowledge this weak person is destroyed, the brother for whom Christ died. 12Thus, sinning against your brothers and wounding their conscience when it is weak, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble.
1 Cor 10:
23″All things are lawful,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful,” but not all things build up. 24Let no one seek his own good, but the good of his neighbor. 25Eat whatever is sold in the meat market without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 26For “the earth is the Lord’s, and the fullness thereof.” 27If one of the unbelievers invites you to dinner and you are disposed to go, eat whatever is set before you without raising any question on the ground of conscience. 28But if someone says to you, “This has been offered in sacrifice,” then do not eat it, for the sake of the one who informed you, and for the sake of conscience– 29I do not mean your conscience, but his. For why should my liberty be determined by someone else’s conscience? 30If I partake with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of that for which I give thanks? 31So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. 32Give no offense to Jews or to Greeks or to the church of God, 33just as I try to please everyone in everything I do, not seeking my own advantage, but that of many, that they may be saved.
“If we stopped listening to music created by sinners we would find it easier to put out our ears since none exists”.
Deborah, there is a huge difference between sin which is in all of us, including Christian singers, and that of un-repentent rebellion. When those in open rebellion against God record or preach the Word, is is hypocritical plain and simple.
Mandy
I have a greater sense of humor than most who post here.
Tim is married to you, he does not even know Ingrid.
Rick
If God numbers the hairs on our heads, is that nit-picking?
The scriptures are applied to our everyday life. Maybe we can put the 16 ton bible on the altar for display like the papists do. Look, but don’t touch.
Do you care if Sinead has her name in the Book of Life or not?
“Well Tim at least we know where you stand. Don’t you guys love to talk about the speck and the log?”
Yeah, I thought I was pretty clear that it wasn’t disrespectful at all. But just so we’re clear, its not disrespectful. Its also not deceptive or slanderous as is the case with so many of the posts on Apprising, C?N, and SoL.
Nathan dude,
thanks for the kind comments.
Joe,
I agree with you on the X thing. It has always bothered me too
“I have found some of the most spiritual songs in the least spiritual places – “Hurt†by NIN and Cash would be one”.
Deborah, there is major difference in the song “Hurt” and Sinead singing how much she loves God. She obviously does not love God.
Kent,
“there is a huge difference between sin which is in all of us, including Christian singers, and that of un-repentent rebellion. When those in open rebellion against God record or preach the Word, is is hypocritical plain and simple.”
That was sorta my point. If by saying that Sinead doesn’t love God you are saying she isn’t a Christian I would agree. Knowing a bit about her past I feel very sorry for her. She seems to love some things about God but she clearly doesn’t know God.
deborah
“Do you care if Sinead has her name in the Book of Life or not? ”
It doesn’t matter if I care, does it? It only matters if God chose her, right?
Rick,
Honest question here, why does every question have to come back to this? I mean, we understand you’re not a Calvinist.
Rick,
I hope that last statement was a bit of a challenge to the Calvinist system and not your own… I confess I have not been able to read through this thread yet but this statement,
“It doesn’t matter if I care, does it? It only matters if God chose her, right?”
Did not seem to be you… I think we can agree that all mankind matters to God… and that the Calvinist view of Election and predestination is rather a twisted view of God and His loving purpose for mankind.
If I have missed something let me know… but if this is you view… I am not sure where to start. But I will give the benefit of the doubt.
Blessings,
iggy
Joe,
It is not Calvinism…nesasarily but the view that God does not love all mankind and created some to destruction… that is a misreading of Romans 7,8,9,10… it then makes God a god of fatalism and more like Allah, than YHWH.
Blessings,
iggy
Joe – honest answer here – because he asked me if I cared about O’Conner’s soul which seemed incongruent with what I believed his theology was. Look over my comments, I believe that the Calvinist issue is 10%.
Anyway, that theology lacks foundation to most of what Ken and others do. Is that not appropriate to point out periodically? It is not to let everyone know that I’m not a Calvinist, as you put it, it is to expose the illogical nature of that theology when compared with the aggressive nature of the watchman philosophy.
I reiterate my position and invite challenges, “It does not matter if I care about Ms. O’Conner’s soul, it only matters if God cared enough to save her”. I believe it is a serious question that has eternal implications.
Fair enough
“She seems to love some things about God but she clearly doesn’t know God”.
Same could be said about Prince.
Well, I missed out on most of this conversation because I was on the road most of today, but I actually stopped at a Borders while I was out, and I was able to find the album. It was in the pop/rock section, not the Christian section, so I think the whole thing about it being marketed as a “Christian” album is unfounded. I don’t go to Christian bookstores as much as I used to, but I’ve never seen it in any that I’ve been to. I haven’t seen in other “Christian” publications. It if was being marketed to Christians, we would have heard about it, a la The Passion or Evan Almighty. It was really because of Ingrid’s article that I found out about it.
Believe me, if you are worried about unbelieving artists influencing Christians, Sinead O’Connor should be the least of your worries. This album is straight from the Scriptures, for the most part.
I thought X is the symbol for Chi which is the first letter in Greek for Christos…
Just for convenience…not trying to take the Christ out of Christmas or anything like that…=)
sometimes in my notes I’ll right XP for “Christ”…That is the CHI RHO. Some of us may be familiar with it. It looks like a P with a real long stem and the X goes over the stem. The X is part of the ancient historical symbols of the Church…
to each his own, say I. =)
Again, I say Fair enough. Although I wonder how many understood that. Either way, it certainly isn’t a big deal.
Speaking of Prince… one of the most beautiful songs I have ever heard was written and performed by Prince:
The Cross – Prince
Black day, stormy night
No love, no hope in sight
Don’t cry, he is coming
Don’t die without knowing the cross
Ghettos 2 the left of us
Flowers 2 the right
There’ll be bread 4 all of us
If we can just bear the cross
Sweet song of salvation
A pregnant mother sings
She lives in starvation
Her children need all that she brings
We all have our problems
Some BIG, some are small
Soon all of our problems
Will be taken by the cross
Black day, stormy night
No love, no hope in sight
Don’t cry 4 he is coming
Don’t die without knowing the cross
Ghettos 2 the left of us
Flowers 2 the right
There’ll be bread 4 all, y’all
If we can just, just bear the cross, yeah
We all have our problems
Some are BIG, some are small
Soon all of our problems, y’all
Will be taken by the cross
The cross
The cross
Ah Rick, I used to hang out with folks like you.
Whether one is calvinist or arminian no one knows who the redeemed are until after they profess faith in Christ.. Therefore, we are to preach the Gospel to everyone and let the sovereign God of of the universe take care of the redemptive part.
I subscribe to the scriptures, not calvinism/arminianism.
Chris P., you are typical.
Chris P…
“Whether one is calvinist or arminian no one knows who the redeemed are until after they profess faith in Christ.”
This is not true… in
John 2:23-25 (New International Version)
“23Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name. 24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25He did not need man’s testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.”
Just confession a belief in Jesus is not enough to save… It is the right type of belief that is important.
James states also. 2:19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
The belief of the demon is not of faith… and it is by grace through faith we are saved.
So to say as you have is wrong that it is that WE profess… that is works… it is man based. It is that God knows us… and has seen our faith.
1 john 4 states this as the relationship that god initiates…
“7Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.”
To state that we initiate this gets things turned around. It is that God knows us… and sees how we respond to the faith He gives… which is the “how” it works….
Be Blessed,
iggy
Interestingly as I re-read the article at CT… It seemed that if one is a Christian they will see where Sinead’s
“Theology” is off. Even we “emerging” can see it. So why would there be need of a “caveat”?
it seems again that some just think they are the sole purveyors of discernment… and in that would rather rant and rave over things than rejoice that Sinead may be moving closer to the truth…
BTW… I have witnessed to Buddhist who I have found that relate to the law… as the steps in Buddhism are not much different than the Law of Moses… from that platform I talk of Jesus and grace… and they are intrigued…
So often a critical spirit misses the true opportunity that is given by God’s hand… and instead of healing for Sinead, they only want to deny her grace.
Be Blessed,
iggy
I still say that that man Gordon saying that Christianity was “cheating” was priceless. I was so blessed by a new believer describing grace in that common description, and I understood just what he meant.
Between Rick and Iggy I don’t know which one has the least understanding.
I never said that we initiate anything and I most certainly would not even infer such a thing.
1 Cor 12:
3Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit.
“It is that God knows us… and sees how we respond to the faith He gives… which is the “how†it works….”
Uh sorry…. God does not wait to see how we will respond.
He is the giver of faith, and if He gives it, you have it.
John 2 has nothing to do with your interpretation.
As for CT issuing a caveat, it is quite apparent that the lack of biblical knowledge is a cause of concern. Thus there is a need for the alarm to be sounded.
As for Heinrich, I am typical in what way? You blow off a lot of hot air around here, but your words contain very little substance.
Chris P
who brought up John 2?
I think that your misunderstanding the bible is pretty clear as God give faith… to see how we respond to it… in that as we respond to His faithfulness and express faith back we experience grace. You seem to have us just saved by faith through faith… yes faith is a gift, but faith without works is dead… so there is more than just faith… and that is Grace.
It seems that you define grace a believe… read James chapter 2 and see that belief is not all true faith is… in fact belief in and of itself means really nothing.
So be blessed,
iggy