I believe in a literal hell but I grow weary of my own hypocrisy and the hypocrisy of the orthodox crowd with their snobbery and doctrinal satisfaction about it. It’s time for a “Hell Revival!!”.
What I want is for all you guys to openly and with enthusiasm declare a belief and love for hell. I want T-shirts that say “I believe in a literal hell and I’m proud of it!”. I want pictorials and descriptions that make the place come alive, and even perfumed with a doctrinally enhanced sulfur scent.
These orthodox theologians that just give lip service and written doctrinal creeds professing their espousal of the doctrine of hell are nothing but paper tigers. Live it, man. Love it, make it your banner of truth proving your love for the Savior! Taste it, smell it, enjoy the vicarious ambiance of the overall penal essence of the place and with that you can claim orthodoxy!
Don’t just criticize those who waiver, go deeper in your stagnant theology and rejoice with the dance of eternal damnation. Remember, you BELIEVE in hell as the Bible declares, you are mentally Biblical!! Some emergents are waffling but not you, you faithfully believe people are going into hell by the thousands as we speak so praise His holy Name, you believe in hell and all the souls that now are experiencing hell’s torments substantiate your glorious orthodoxy. You – are – a – hell – believer!!
So this Sunday when your pastor exposes the ones who are attempting to dismantle the doctrine of hell you stand and shout “Those cowards! Heretics! Emergents!”
And as the service ends go get a bite to eat because it is the doctrine that is important not the souls. Remember, when your neighbor dies that lousy emergent doesn’t believe he went to hell but YOU DO, and with that God is pleased.
61 Comments(+Add)
I BELIEVE IN A LITERAL HELL!
I have needed to say it for a while, thanks to your post I have the courage. I feel better now…….wait, does that make me Orthodox?
I know that many may disagree, but the concept of Hell as a place is not really borne out in scripture. The Bible rather teaches life/death as opposed to heaven/hell (ie: John 3:16, Romans 6:23, John 5:29).
The word for Hell in the OT is actually “sheol” in Hebrew which means “abode of the dead” or the “grave”. It is a state rather than a place, which is why the OT describes both the good and the bad going to this place when they die.
So, everyone technically goes to “hell” when they die… in other words, we are dead.
This is where the power of the resurrection comes in – bringing to life that which was dead. This does not happen UNTIL Jesus returns to establish His everlasting kingdom upon the earth.
So, no one is up in heaven right now (aside from Jesus) which is why Paul stated “As in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, WHEN HE COMES, those who belong to him.” (1 Cor 15).
Yes Paul, I understand. But not my point here.
BTW this is why Revelation 20 describes hell as “dying”. All of us experience death one (the first death), but because of Christ we are blessed to escape the Second (permanent death). Finally, when Jesus comes to establish His kingdom on the earth, death (hell) actually dies.
If hell is a place of eternal judgment, this would not make sense at all. The lake of fire is symbolic language that outlines the fact that even death is not permanent – once the King returns.
I know Rick – but I find there is a lot of misconception surrounding this issue and they should be clarified rather than mystified.
Paul – we get it but don’t agree.
Rick,
OUCH! Gotta wonder, I bet it was tough to remove your tongue from your cheek after you wrote this…
And though on one level Paul C is technically right…
Paul the Apostle states:
So either I am muddying or bring more clarity to the theological waters here! LOL! but I am certain one way or the other… I being a believer and follower of Jesus Christ will Live by His Life and will live eternally in God’s presence.
Blessings,
iggy
Iggy…
John 5:39: And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again AT THE LAST DAY.
John 5:40: And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
John 5:54: Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up AT THE LAST DAY.
2 Tim 4:7-8: I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me AT THAT DAY: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
There are tons more scriptures that talk about the resurrection that takes place AT HIS COMING… not when you die.
This post wasn’t meant for a “hell forum”, the prurpose was obvious. Read again!
Why must I throw the bone to coloquial crowd? I refuse.
Rick,
Have you seen the real men of genius commercials? I can see this post done in the same vein. Real Christians of Genius…
Joe – so your intransigence mirrors thsoe with whom you disagree. Why not be clear within the context of your audience, isn’t that what emergents desire? Maybe not.
Ah Rick, it is the clarity of the apostles I seek, within the context of the modern historical, baptist, charismatic, calvinistic, arminian, pentecostal, full-gospel of grace, in Christ, through God with the empowering and illuminating work of the Holy Spirit.
Rick,
Errr…Amen?
It sounds like Bell apologetics to me but maybe I’m wrong. So you are saying that not speaking within the understandable context of say, street people, is irrelevant all you desire is the context of the things you mentioned and if they don’t get it so what?
You know what, they same the same thing over at Pyro. We are one big happy family!
Well, to be honest I was just trying to be funny. My oldest started Kindergarten today so I need something to cheer me up.
Thanks Joe, and me of all people did not recognize humor. I consider myself flogged!!
What if I believe in a literal hell that is a present reality – in this life – and that it is this present reality of hell and the present reality of death that will be cast into the lake of fire, along with those whom did not choose God when He gave them the choice?
“present reality of death that will be cast into the lake of fire, along with those whom did not choose God when He gave them the choice? ”
I think I agree. It seems like Bell?
Chris L – Present reality of hell? If the term “hell” actually means “grave” then I’m not sure how this works. Where is this reflected in the bible.
What if you believe things that are not reflected in the bible but derived from personal experience or observation? Well, if they are not consistent with biblical principles, then why would you put any weight on them?
I love it, a “hell” wrestling match. How about we all witness to someone today about how Christ changed our lives so just in case it really does exist we warn somone with God’s love?
Paul,
Hell does not translate as “grave” in the NT. In the OT, some translators equate Sheol (the grave) with hell. However, every instance but one in the NT (from Peter, taken from the Greek mythology of Tartarus), the word for ‘hell’ is gehenna – which literally is The Valley of Hinnom, which runs beside Jerusalem.
The Hinnom Valley was the location of the city dump in Jerusalem, where the refuse was constantly being burned with wild dogs gnashing their teeth fighting for the scraps. It was also the location in the OT where Israelites sacrificed their children to Molech. It was an awful place (which we have archaeology to corroborate contextually today and Josephus and other writers to corroborate in the first century).
So, when Jesus used the word “hell” – gehenna, in every instance – he used a word that had real, contextual understanding and implications. When he was teaching in Jerusalem (which some of the ‘hell’ usages would support), in particular, it is likely that his listeners would have been able to smell it and see the smoke from it.
Hell had both present and future implications…
“Hell had both present and future implications… ”
Behold, the sum of it all.
Chris L – I agree with your definition of hell in the NT. But the concept of hell in the NT and OT don’t conflict in any way (in other words, what Christ was teaching about the perils of disobedience and eternal punishment was not new). Since gehenna was a literal, physical place just outside Jerusalem, doesn’t it make sense that this was probably parabolic language that Christ knew would resonate with his hearers (as you say, they could have smelt it daily and been reminded, “This is not a place I’d like to end up.”)?
But this doesn’t conflict with what I said about hell (OT or NT) being a state of the grave, death and separation from God.
Again – we are confronted with life and death rather than heaven and hell as the eternal promises in Scripture.
With the “Hell Revival” gaining momentum I think we need a theme song.
Hmmm! I wonder if any pastors have ever used a song to illustrate a sermon about Hell?
And since he is always brought up in the subject of Hell definition; I propose “Hells Rob Bells” as the theme song.
Chris L said:
Paul C responded:
Do I hear an echo?
Let us be equally concerned with hell as place as well as a destination.
Rick – ever the compromiser for the sake of unity:)
Theme Song,
I propose changing the words to John Denver’s “Thank God, I’m A Country Boy => “Thank God, I Believe in Hell”
Chorus:
We got saints on the right and saints in the middle
Sinners on the left and the devil on his fiddle.
Life ain’t nuthin’ but a funny, funny riddle
Thank God I believe in Hell!
I’m not sure why those who believe in the biblically supported truth of hell are thus forced into the position of celebrating it. Hell isn’t to be celebrated, like some kind of party. It is a place of damnation and pain.
Reality if full of things that are real but that shouldn’t celebrate. Should we treat funerals like birthday parties? Should cancer victims be told to ‘let a smile be your umbrella’?
I know, you’re being facetious. But are you willing to be so as well to those who try to make hell only metaphorical? Come on, there has to be great material for ridicule in that.
“Since I gave up hell, I feel a lot better.”
“I’d tell you to ‘go to hell’, but you can’t.”
“If some people are suppose to go to hell to reunite, they need to find a new venue.”
Seriously, I can remember reading something in scripture about how God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Hell is a necessity, and one whose reality has plenty of biblical support, but it is a hard reality.
Jazz – you almost got my post. Simply put, many people are sanctimonious in there belief in hell while not showing much emotion about the populators and striking little pathos and urgency about telling others about God’s provision for escape. Your sarcasms are duly noted and even creative.
Are posters about hell denyers coming? Kidding.
Maybe an absurd, even tasteless, example would demonstrate this better.
How should we react the next time we have to deal with skin-heads and Holocaust deniers? Should we make t-shirts that say “We believe in the Holocaust”? Should we ‘declare a belief and love for the Holocaust”?
–Simply put, many people are sanctimonious in there belief in hell while not showing much emotion about the populators and striking little pathos and urgency about telling others about God’s provision for escape. –
That may be, but at least from what I have seen, it’s more common then may be thought. Many such churches support evangelists and missionaries, and really are concerned about those who live around them.
A liitle apples and oranges. My point was in a fleshly satisfaction over beliving in hell without the corresponding actions that would completely substantiate that we actually did believe in hell and were broken and shaken over it.
Rick,
In one sense your post was deeply convicting — it has been several weeks since I have had the opportunity to share the gospel with someone…that’s my fault.
In another sense, I think your brush is as broad as Dwight Freeny’s shoulders…way to lump everyone who believes in hell into the same category
Dave – it wasn’t meant to be, but sometimes the Holy Spirit won’t let me get away with nailing someone about an important doctrinal issue when I am failing to live that same doctrine I am using as a club on someone else. Good to hear from you.
“…sometimes the Holy Spirit won’t let me get away…”
So this post was divinely inspired!?
I won’t make that claim, Ken, but it was born out of personal conviction by His Spirit. If you see anything you like, own it.
I obviously get alot of questions from inquiring people about Mosaic. It seems like people of the ODM mindset always ask me two questions… How often do you preach on Hell? and How often do you preach on Sin? It’s almost as if those two subjects aren’t the brunt of sermons, then we are doing something wrong. I love what my pastor said about Hell:
The idea of Hell to me is so overwhelming. I pray to God that I am wrong, but everything in scriptures tells me that there is a place that exists called Hell… and if there is a place called hell, than you better believe that I will have the smell of its smoke on me from trying to save people from it.
I love that he says “I pray to God that I am wrong.” Hell should never be celebrated. It scares me how comfortable some people are in celebrating a place where the person next to them might spend eternity in torture.
If we really believe in its existence should it not unsettle our souls? A great comment Nathan and a Christlike heart from your pastor. How smug we are in our antiseptic doctrines, and the one about an eternal place of unending punishment is IMPOSSIBLE to believe.
Oh yes, on paper I check the right box, but I do not really believe it. Not like I believe in the existence of New York, not like I believe in the existence of Mars, and not even like I believe in the existence of atomic particles. Come on, if we really believed in a place of torture where people this very second are experiencing their very first seconds and realizing they are there FOREVER AND FOREVER, if we REALLY believe that what in heaven’s name are we doing? So if you really believed an automobile accident happened right in front of your house and someone was trapped inside you would go out in a hurry to try and help, but we say we really believe in an eternal hell and we won’t walk down the block to tell people? And we shed no tears? And we lose no sleep? And we pray so little?
Who are we kidding, surely not God and not even ourselves? The sum of my post was that even those of us who ascribe to the notion of hell do not really believe it or our lives would be quite different. So yes there are men who are beginning to question hell’s existence as commonly defined, but while we get all self righteous and castigate them let’s save some castigation for our own glaring indifference even while we loudly proclaim our doctrinal purity!
“A great comment Nathan and a Christlike heart from your pastor.” Erwin McManus prays to God that His Word is wrong? “I pray to God that I am wrong, but…[Your Word says there is a literal Hell].”
Then he further doubts what God said in the Bible, “and if there is a place called hell…” If there is?! Since when is this Christ-like?
Ken – you have absolutely no heart for sinners, just for your self righteous opinions and your meaningless blogs. You are a dry-eyed troll who seizes upon opportunities to scorn and show an emotionless contempt for people. You didn’t comment on Revival or Love’s Embodiement or Grace or anything remotely connected to the Person of Jesus and His magnificent salvation, those things don’t stir your heart, derision and divisiveness is what thrills your soul.
You copy and paste from Tozer and Spurgeon and others when it comes to devotion because with devotion you must borrow words, but with contempt and disdain the words flow freely. A doctrinal stone man with no heart for anything but your pitiful words. I too wish that no one went to hell and all would be saved, but like Nathan’s pastor observed God’s Word says otherwise.
There will come a day my friend when you will have to give an account just like all of us, and I would rather be Bell than stand in your shoes. There is still time to repent.
You don’t believe in hell anymore than you believe in Christian love, words my friend just words. You stuck your nose under the tent this time only to find rebuke, because the eternal destination of souls is not some doctrinal game of gatcha, it should bring us to absolute brokenness and tears, not another opportunity to smear someone who you’ve already catalogued many, many times. Good night, Ken, and find rest in the fact that you believe in hell. Sweet dreams.
Rick,
Why shame on you wit’ the name-callin’. You trying to gain admittance into the vaunted brotherhood of the ODM?!
Um, I dunno; maybe it’s just me but I kinda sense a little tension here. Have you tried de-caf?
Paul C.
Ummmm
Yeah…
I think you are having an entirely different conversation…
I am not even sure what your point is…
It all started at the Resurrection of Jesus himself that ushered in the kingdom which is now and will be in its fullness in the future… so I have no problem with any of the text you are throwing at me…
So whatever you think you are correcting seems a bit lost to me!
Sorry…
Be blessed,
iggy
Ken you tried that same tired line on me.
It probably has the same effect on me as screaming at a non-believer “You’re going to Hell”.
Ken… he says a lot… then says some more… then you realize he said nothing… and wonder at the waste of time you spent reading him…
Blessed?
iggy
In 1973 I stood in a hospital room and watched my own mother die without Christ. I would not become a believer for two more years, but when I look back I can never forget that scene. So sometimes all our words and phrases and exchanges can seem like sounding brass and tinkling cymbal.
The eternal damnation of a soul is not something over which we should quibble and be light, it is at the heart of the story of redemption. So when some blog bully buts into a conversation with more of his meaningless dribble, it does not sit well with me. This Christian life we lead is more than words and many times more than just the doctrines we claim to believe, it is eternal life and eternal death.
We can have fun and God gives us a merry herat, but I cannot abide an electron elf driving his own tired agenda while in the midst of a conversation of the most serious of all. Let us never get so callous and cavalier that we can speak without feeling, we can laugh without crying, and we can write without meaing what we say in the deepest of ways.
I do not apologize for rebuking Ken, he deserves it more than he gets. The game is fun sometimes, but there are times when the game must stop.
Rick,
You are so full of yourself it’s pathetic. I urge you to repent, you are on a very bad road.
–You are so full of yourself it’s pathetic.–
Harsh words, Silva, but I don’t see that. Granted, I probably didn’t get Rick’s point very well in the OP, but I do a little better now.
As far as being ‘full of (ones)self’, you come into another person’s house and act like this? Since these are public debates, disagreement is to be expected, but a certain decorum is expected, too.
And, yeah, yeah, I’m sure you can say the same has been done to you. Very well, let’s say it has. To quote a Miles Davis tune, So What.
Golly, it’s like dealing with little kids sometimes. “He hit me”, “Well, he started it”, “Did not”, Did too”!!!!!!
I’m not EC by any stretch, but nor am I on whatever side you’re on, Silva (fundamentalist, I would guess). And really, I’m glad I’m not either. You both got planks in your eyes, but all you do try to beat each other up with them.
Ken lest you forget; it is you my friend always claiming the moral high ground. All the while taking aim from that position and shooting down fellow sojourners of the faith.
You so self-righteously proclaim your “right” to defend a faith with vitriol, spite, and hate that it will continue to ring false in the ears of those who have yet to know the truth. There is a slant difference between your approach and that of Fred Phelps. Your position, however, is within the walls of the church. That is perhaps more egregious. Unfortunately the world sees Fred and yourself as ” two peas in a pod.”
Now I’ve been visiting many blogs for several months and it never ceases to amaze me how you never offer concrete evidence for your claims of heresy. Nor do you apologize for your senseless, mind-numbing, spiteful, attacks. Vary rarely are you ever confronted by those you attack with the same varacity in which you condemn them. Quite frankly I’m tired of it. It’s not fun to watch or read. If I thought you were well meaning it might be a little different. But the more I read your comments I think you do it for attention. Not attention in the sense I’m saying something important listen to me; rather in the sense I’m an insecure man who needs to feel important. Step 1) Attack someone on a blog Step 2) Have them check out my blog Step 3) Look my blog numbers are up. Step 4) Pat myself on the back for my great outreach.
The only problem with that is if you check out Technorati most people think, your way off base at best. At worst they think your crazy.
Now at this point I could launch into a huge diatribe about your inability to sheperd, your lack of accountability, or your inability to be humble, but I’ll refrain. I will however ask that you take in introspective look at your life and ask yourself “How am I fulfilling the great commission?” and “How am I living out ‘the whole law is summed up in these two; Love God and Love your neighbor’ ” If you answer “I’m doing great” to either one of those then I would encourage you to ask yourself one more question “How many people have come to know Christ through my ministries?”
Once we have labeled someone in a way that is meant to demean, then that person cannot do anything right in our eyes. We’ve all been there. If we do not like someone then even if he invents a cure for cancer we will question his motives, we cannot bring ourselves to rejoice in anything he does.
So if a person is labeled EC, even if he claims to believe in Christ and His gospel, we could not even rejoice if he was used to bring someone to the Lord. We all must guard against letting our hearts reach that point.
Am I now I double secret spam filtering?
chris – I de-spammed you, I don’t know why it got caught. Also I couldn’t let your comment about Major Applewhite being right go through. (Heaven’s gate!)
Rick per our previous discussions; I’m not very quick
Who? What? Huh?
A joke about “Heavan’s Gate” cult. You know, the comet and all. Sorry, nobody got it.
Ken,
are you serious? He didn’t say “I pray that the scriptures are wrong” He prayed that his interpretation was wrong. However he holds true to the scriptures, even when they are horrific.
Your extreme lack of empathy reveals alot about who you are and what your theology dictates.
Nathan – which goes to my original intent, to show how people take satisfaction in their theology without examining their own hypocrisy. Who can be proud and happy about hell?
It seems there are some.
“He prayed that his interpretation was wrong.”
There’s nothing TO interpret regarding the fact that Jesus taught there is a literal place of eternal conscious torment for all those not in Christ which He called Hell.
Young man your naiveté “reveals alot about who you are and what your theology dictates.”
“Who can be proud and happy about hell?”
Who says we are but you Rick. That’s why you’re on a real bad road. Man, to speak for what I believe, when you cannot know what I believe makes you judgmental. Again, I urge you in Christ to repent.
Ken – you are a recruiting tool for the emergent church. If I were presenting the emergent church I would have your writings as required reading. The rest would follow naturally.
Even Paul wishes he could take Israel’s place while realizing he cannot. It’s an emotion of the heart not a discounting of Scripture.
Emotion of the heart…you’ll need a syllabus Ken.