http://relevantchristian.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/god-in-a-box/

A person can get saved watching the Passion as well as Godspel. My point is as we try and present the gospel as is Biblical, God’s Spirit can reach people using who He wants and not what we want.

Did I say otherwise? Show me where I denied man is a sinner?

The issue is that when we depend on a formula, we are not depending on God… can God use a formula? OF COURSE! (not yelling… just giving emphasis)

Here is the other issue…

It seems when someone like me finds a chink in the armor… then I have “neglected” something else…

I notice this happens a lot… Often an emergent will say “yes that is the given, but it is more than that”.. and what is heard is that they are not saying the “given” is true and that we need to go beyond it…

In a way that is true… yet, can one capture the understanding of “trinity” in “just” a doctrinal statement? No… it is to be experienced as we find our life in Christ.

It is that there is some obsession against the word “just”… it cannot be “This and more”.

God cannot be reduced to a formula.. and the weird thing is then you are still stating that if one does not accept the formula and acknowledge they are a sinner… they will not be saved!

Show me where the Ethiopian eunuch “repented” for his sin… he just acknowledged who Jesus was and was baptised… show me where Cornelius the centurion “repented” yet you will see a humble heart as he bows at the feet of Peter making a Jew greater than a Roman Centurion.

Also, notice (for you Lordship Salvation people) that not everyone who call Jesus Lord will be saved! (Matt 7:21) There is no “formula” regardless to Ray Comforts views on this or not!

There will always be an exception… and that is to lead us to Jesus for our salvation and not trust in OUR OWN WORKS OR CRAFTINESS…

Be Blessed,
iggy

I do agree that salvation is not the result of a formula or simple mental assent but I would have no reason to put my relational trust in God for my salvation if I “thought” I was a pretty good guy on my own merit.

Here is the “fundamental” problem with Chris R’s post…

“IF a person attends a church that doesn’t properly teach God’s Law AND Gospel but rather makes its evangelistic appeals by never discussing sin but instead says that Jesus will make a person’s life more satisfying (infomercial gospel), THEN that person does not know that they are a sinner who will face God’s judment and that Christ died for their sins and they need to repent and trust in Christ. That being the case, even if that person identifies themselves as a Christian, they have NOT truly been converted to the Christian faith.”

He is saying that going to church is what saves you… and belief in said churches teachings… and that is either a grave oversight or grievous error.

It is God Who saves us… at a building of worship… by a stream and a rock concert… even the words uttered do not matter that much as the heart itself is what God sees and hears… it is how that heart is responding to the Call of God…

And that is by humility and acknowledging not “our sin” but that we cannot do anything to save ourselves and need God’s mercy… and in that we receive His Grace through faith (which is not just mental assent but the understanding or relational trust).

What I see from the ODM group is a formula… they have this formula… preach the Law, then show they are a sinner and dead… and then preach the Good News. It is not bad in and of itself, but God is not about formulas… nor does a formula save us…

THE PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST SAVES US.

This is the issue… the denial of the relational aspect over the mental assent.

Be Blessed,
iggy

I find the arguments of these ODM’s very hard to believe.

Your points are well taken and I think more a matter of nuance than anything else largely due to the way in which I summarized what Rick had to say in the interests of brevity.
For example your point #1. Rick quotes Isaiah 59:2: “Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sings have hidden his face from you so that he does not hear.” The point is that sin separates us from God.
Your point #2. There is no Plan A, Plan B time reference suggested but more a sense of Rom 8:3,4: “For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us . . .”

Peace,

Would you also say that “turn or burn” messages have a certain coercion to them that lead to false conversions?

Absolutely. Scaring people into salvation is just as wrong as pampering them in. If God is gracious enough to give us a part to play in the process of someone’s salvation – we mustn’t overstep the line of responsibility he’s given us. The final “deal” as it were, is between them and God and should be allowed to happen when and how God wants.