There’s alot I would like to say about this post and video… some good, some (alot) bad. But, I would thought I would let you decide where the discussion would go. I am especially interested in hearing from women and parents. And is the solution to the problem of the family really going to be a “present return to the old paths”? I personally don’t think we have that option, and don’t really want to. I just don’t get the ODM’s obsession with the past. I have a stronger interest in what God is going to do in the days to come.
And for the record… I never understand why the voice of God in these films is an old British man. I am pretty sure God would sound more like an Iraqi than a Englishman.
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28 Comments(+Add)
What are the “old paths?” I grew up in a “fundamentalist” church that left me with a load of legalistic guilt that I still struggle with to this day. I for one do not want to return to that old path.
What about single moms that are struggling to make ends meet by holding down two jobs that consume 16 hours of their day? Based on the website belonging to the author of this video, I doubt that he has ever struggled with financial security.
That said, I believe dads do need to reassert their roles as spiritual servant leaders in their homes. That means quantity time as well as “quality” time.
“I am pretty sure God would sound more like an Iraqi than a Englishman.”
Many waters, brother, many waters. The voice of God – the ocean.
Now wait a minute! We all know that God speaks with the voice of Ken Silva… he said so himself…. Ken that is…
Be Blessed,
iggy
I would be very careful in this assumption. One basis for the argument against ODM’s is that they often intrepret huge paintings based on only seeing 1 or 2 strokes of the brush. Let us all be careful to reason with thoughtful and informed statements.
After watching the video I was struck with a few thoughts:
1) The statistics given at about 6 minutes are exagerated. Having a wife who is a social worker to teen moms and foster care families and myself a youth pastor I find myself to be “up to date” on current statistics regarding crime, drug use, etc… Not all of the statistics were blown way out of proportion. I did laugh out loud with the statistic that “80% of all teenagers will have stolen something of significance by their 18th birthday” I find these stats to be careless and only helpful in inducing reactionism and knee-jerking.
2) I don’t think you can really deal with problems plaguing American families in a 9 minute video. But I enjoyed much of what the author had to say. Furthermore I think these are great questions to be asked.
3)With that said it is important to realize that scripture is beneficial in dealing with many of the issues in today’s family
but to say “Teach Gods commands” and this will fix the ills in world fails to realize that many of these issues go way beyond just being “obedient” to God. (Please understand I realize the implications of making this last statement. I would love to dialogue with anybody about that point. This comment section is not big enough to allow me to break it all down)
My two cents.
I thought it was a very good video, especially when you contrast it with what is happening today in Christian and non-Christian homes alike. Here’s a perfect example of the decay that’s being referred to (from a secular vantage point): http://www.slate.com/id/2167293.
A return to the old paths constitutes a return to unchanging principles (regardless of the age) as opposed to our headlong run toward further decay. Certain things should not change (ie: priorities, focus in life, the role of the family, etc) but look around you today. Anyone who can see clearly (even if you’re secular) can see that something has gone terribly wrong.
It doesn’t mean that the past was all peachy, but the old paths and unchanging principles of God’s word are critical if a person, family or society is to recover itself.
I’m having some problems watching the video (one of the consequences of living in Dial-Up Land), but here are some some general thought on going back to old ways (I have only two pennies, so I can’t given change or refunds in case you are not completely satisfied
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Anyway, one thing the Bible seems to tell us to do is to remember things that happened in the past. Israel’s Passover, for example, was to remember how God delivered them from Egypt. God often seemed to remind His people to remember and be careful of things like old landmarks, God’s works in the past, the glory of the old Temple when the people grew lax in building the new one.
One the other hand, there was much about looking ahead, too. Not all of the prophecies were about bad times, and many of them ended on notes of hope–bad times would come, but God would deliver them and times of peace were coming after that.
I think it was C.S. Lewis who made a remark about how if you find yourself on the wrong road, the only way to make progress is to turn around and go back to the right one.
I’ve been around Christians who tend to go too far either way–those who see no good in the present and so live in the past, and those who almost completely disregard the past in the hope of getting into the next ‘new thing’. I think that we are to hold strongly to both–the past can help us learn and understand, and the future can give us hope.
Hey, my smiley’s in the wrong spot! It’s suppose to be at the end of the first paragraph. It looks funny where it’s at now.
chris – I think your statement in point 3 above is very foolish indeed. We are to teach God’s commands, but more than that we are to teach principles and understanding. By teaching commands, people (especially children) may obey in your presence but without understanding there is no long-standing commitment.
I think a lot of failure today has to do with the abandonment of God’s commands (imparted with understanding). “They’re just not strong or relevant enough for the challenges we’re up against today.” That kind of thinking gets us looking into all sorts of unqualified sources for direction.
I am not saying the Bible is the only source, but to imply it’s somehow lacking is a very silly statement (yes, I know you offered a full explanation…)
Paul C, I get something a bit different out of chris’ point 3. Consider what God sent to the Israelites over the ages: prophets, preachers, sages and teachers. One would think after all that they would have accepted Christ immediately.
All those laws were meant to guide and teach, they were never meant to save. But it seems many were more interested in going through the motions than embracing the true message.
The same can be said today. Without a change of heart, all that’s happening is that you’re getting are a group of rebellious people who can be externally compliant with authority so that you or I will have no complaint against them. They’ll vomit up all the right words to appease others…but then what? Even in Revelation, after the Millennium, massive rebellion at the first opportunity.
Sandman – with that reasoning you might begin to think that something is wrong with the message as opposed to those it is delivered to. You partially agree with me, as I said that we are not only to teach commands, but also impart understanding. When this happens, people (especially children) have a better chance to internalize the message and believe it for themselves.
You are right – Israel failed because they never internalized the teachings, but settled for external show… for the most part. But remember, the Lord always deals with a remnant amidst the masses. This seems to be the common thread throughout the OT and NT alike.
I agree – a change of heart is essential. Getting back to the actual post though, the video referred to is well-balanced and pleads with us to return to the principles (unmovable, unshakeable) of the Lord.
I don’t think at any point he is conjuring up the concept of producing robots who function without any understanding.
Paul C – please provide scripture to back up the above statement. I think you are forcing a theological idea into scripture, rather then the other way around.
You know, that thought did go through my head for a second. And while we may not think that’s the case, it is the mindset of a great many, “How dare you put limits on me?” You can find it back in Genesis 3.
Here’s what I see:
A safe and orderly society is in everyone’s best interest.
God allows each of us to accept or reject the message, which is why we can be judged and rewarded or punished.
I agree, I don’t see this as a way of churning out well-behaved robots. At the same time, I don’t think of teaching God’s commands as a type of pro forma recitation that guarantees 100% success at all times.
How many prominent church families and preacher’s kids do we know who decided to reject the conditioning and go totally off the rails? I saw the PK syndrome happen right across the street from me as a kid.
A couple observations.
First, clearly this guys sport’s coat doesn’t fit.
Second, is he dressing down (no tie and coat unbuttoned)? The whole thing looks rather silly.
The video was good except it focuses on the many problems and then gives a simple answer, go back. Where is the power, much less even the desire, to go back? Like telling a demon possessed man “Stop that!” he gives a good delineation of the problems but a simplistic answer.
Churches with huge building debts paying interest to financial istitutions that lend that same money to organizations that promote the exact things we deplore. Church run day care centers that facillitate the very things this man spoke about. Many if not most Christians in serious debt. Most churches have no substantive church wide prayer meeting but they might have an aerobics class. And the list goes on.
Revival is the only answer. Until then we all are to an extent in league with Babylon. We will never be able to even see where we are before God much less be able to extricate ourselves from the cares of this world.
here were the thoughts that went thru my head when I watched it:
1. I personally know TONS of young people (my age) who lived in an ideal Christian home… mom stayed home, Dad went to work, went to church, served in church, had home bible studies, had family bible studies. These kids could out do anyone in a bible quiz. Yet almost all have walked away from God.
2. It seemed like “returning to the old paths” was really returning to the “good ol’ days” of the 50s. Unfortunately, while that was nice, it is not a biblical issue. Also, it seems a bit impossible in today’s world.
3. Let me first say that I am against homosexual marriage, but I love how the gays get blamed for everything. 80% of teenagers will steal something by their 18th birthday… and it’s because gays are getting married. huh? Actually, gay life partners have been found to have more “healthy” relationships and a much lower rate of “divorce” as life partners. I know that doesn’t jive with what I was taught in Sunday School, but it’s something tp throw in there.
4. What we really need to do it examine scripture, examine the postmodern world in which we live, and actually hear from God as to how we need to raise kids in an ever changing and fluctuating world.
The issue here is that many churches and Christians have abandoned the old paths (why do you keep seeing this as the ’50s nathan – I clearly see the speaker referring to Scriptural principles, not the good ole 50s; don’t get confused).
I don’t know where you get your stats regarding gay marriage – that’s ridiculous and irrelevant. I don’t see how he LINKED theft with gay marriage – perhaps you’re trying to draw a parallel that’s not there.
Rick – I agree that once the genie is out of the bottle that it’s difficult to go back BUT to continue headlong is assured destruction. In the days of Hezekiah or Josiah, going “back” (which was really going forward in God, as is this video) was not comfortable at all, but 100% necessary.
Lastly, the reason for nathan’s comments regarding the “perfect” Christian home and Sandman’s comments regarding PKs is that parents often forget to impart understanding along with the rules and commandments. Of course, as soon as the reins are off, people go hog-wild.
Perhaps this is what has happened with the new type of Christianity that has emerged… a type of do-it-yourself hodge-podge that meshes well with a post-modern, me-style world.
Why is it when people long for the good old days, they never acknowledge that this included white people owning black people? Or, in the case of the 1950s, white people oppressing black people through forced segregation and racial intimidation and violence? How does that fit in?
If we were so perfectly faithful in previous generations to God’s work, why were white Christians also violent racists? Did Jesus approve of that? Well, they may have lynched blacks, but at least they weren’t emergent?
Matt- regarding a remnant..,
Remember the days of Elijah – Israel was a hodge-podge of religions where the Lord was just one of many (kind of like today). Yet, in the midst of this, there was still a minority of people who remained faithful to the Lord (7,000).
This was also the case in the days that Isaiah prophesied (see Is 1:9 to get a sense of what was happening then).
In the days prior to Christ’s birth, there were only a small remnant of people truly faithful to God (the Anna’s, Simeon’s, shepherds, etc.). The masses had gone astray.
Even Christ Himself spoke of FEW finding the narrow path and the MASSES walking on the broad road to destruction.
As a final reference, see Revelation 13: ALL the world wonders after the beast except those relatively few whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.
There is a definite trend throughout scripture, but this gives a couple highlights.
Well thank you for being so frank in your disapproval.
I didn’t say: Don’t teach commands of God nor did I say We need God’s commands and understanding for it all to work. My thesis is that life is more complicated than posting the Ten Commandments in ever public square, putting prayer back in the classroom, etc… Per a previous post there is a contingent of people, in a sphere of Christianity, that will have you believe that all you need is God regardless of your situation. I patently disagree with that. Having been raised in a family with mental illness, divorce, abuse (physical and sexual), and addictions my road to health (spiritual, emotional, and mental) has been a long one. God has been the biggest impetus for my current health. But he has brought people into my life, professional people, that have played a major role in bringing me to my current position in life.
Paul C,
Most of what he had to say was about the dad going to work, the mom staying home in the kitchen and everyone playing monopoly on Friday nights together after a hymn-sing. That’s what I beleive he was implying. It was less about how to raise up a child and more about how to have a great family life
Early on in the piece he mentions that Gay Marriage is breaking up family values. I think Christians use that as an excuse as to why Christian families are so dysfunctional. Better to blame the gay than to admit there is a problem at home.
NO ONE here has said that scripture does not speak into these things. I will raise my family on scriptural principles. However, this video had more to do with an American family structure and excuses for why all the good Christian kids turn into heathen the second they hit college.
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what Israel was. Israel was equivalent to the church today. To compare America (or any country, or the world in general) to Israel is never a proper understanding of Israel. Israel was the covenanted people of God, there was an expectation of faithfulness to God that should be found throughout his people. Today the church is the covenanted people of God to whcih there is an expectation of universal faithfulness.
If your argument that there is a remnant in Israel and so we should expect the same today is accepted, then we have to accept that the norm for the church is that the vast majority of the church should be unfaithful. I don’t accept that as the norm, and I don’t see any expectation in scripture for that.
I would have liked a source for all those stats.
Other than that, I only saw the man rattling off a laundry list of gripes, with a sprinkling of verses as bookends, but no real solution to the problem.
Per the video, how far back in time are we supposed to go? Are we to take on the culture of that time period as well? Does that message in the video work in all parts of the world, or is it to an American audience?
If the set and the speaker are meant to represent a typical home setting, I saw a lot of the materialism present that he warns against.
Also, since Rick Warren gets hammered for the same thing, there was no Gospel message, no four spiritual laws, etc.
Tim – you may not want to accept this, but unfortunately this is the norm. The mass of Christianity is, as they say, “a million miles wide, but an inch deep.”
I don’t know why you disagree with me in the first part. I too agree that there is a parallel between Israel and the church (which is why I made my comment in the first place – sorry if it wasn’t clear). So no misunderstanding here at all.
I am not saying we should “expect” the same, but again, all you have to do is open your eyes. This is the reality.
The family is under attack (from within and without) like never before, and a return to the principles outlined in God’s word (which have been abandoned by Christians as well as non-Christians) is the only hope, regardless of how painful the process is.
Will everyone get on board? Not by a long-shot, but perhaps a few will.
Psst… don’t look now, but you guys are becoming as nit-picky as the ODMs that you condemn all the time.
The video was sound – it pointed out a problem and asked that we consider a return to the principles (not the culture as everyone seems to misinterpret, except Rick) of the word of God. Simple.
I think some of us are so used to arguing for a POSITION that we become blinded to the message. It was a good video.
If you don’t like, why not do a better one?
Paul, my last comment with the Rick Warren reference was meant to be nit-picky. In point of fact, I’m not a huge Warren fan. Are you saying the ODMs actually are nit-picky?
For as on point as his message was for a strictly American audience, it comes up short in his proprosal that we return to an older time.
That does not address what I know to be the case: Times, cultures and civilizations may change, but the truths of the Bible do not. Given that, we need to be better equipped to present those truths in times in which we live.
Paul,
This isn’t a matter of not being deep enough. When you say a remnant is all that’s left you’re saying that vast majority of the church is outside of the Kingdom. I don’t think that’s the case at all.
I like the book cover that is displayed on the video. It reminds me that America won’t be perfect until it’s WHITE. The creator of the video obviously knows his audience.
And this book cover cracks me up too.
It seems to fly in the face of the church being a place of redemption, restoration, forgiveness, and healing. Who says the people that look like that are the template? They might be Leave it to Beaver look alikes but people who have wrecked lives would be scared off.
Mormons use the same bait.