Matt.11:19 – The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a man gluttonous and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners.
Do we as the church sometimes become our own self fulfilling prophecies? In the past twenty or so years a phenomenon has arisen around almost every community. There now are gay churches that have gay preachers and accept the gay lifestyle. Yes, I know they are unbiblical and fly directly in the face of God’s truth so let us not pretend that is God’s will.
But I can remember several decades ago when the evangelical movement seemed to gather energy by confronting the ever growing homosexual community with sometimes vitriolic and hateful language. Protests and sermons dedicated to labeling, naming, and pronouncing judgment of all those that claimed to be gay were commonplace, and conservative organizations grew at least in part by the common disdain for homosexuals. They were mocked and castigated and generally treated as special objects of God’s wrath. Some of that same sentiment continues today.
Here is my question which I am sure will bring anger from some quarters: Could it be that some in the gay community felt increasingly empty and began to feel hungry for God, and when they recognized they were not welcome in our churches, they started their own misguided fellowships? Could we have embraced them apart from their sin and prayed that the Spirit would gain access into their hearts and change their eternity as well as their lives, all while in the warmth of a loving fellowship of believers? So how do we love and embrace sinners, even to the point of eating with them, and still have them realize that we do not condone their sin?
I do not know the answer to that question fully but I do know Jesus went to parties held by sinners. And while never partaking of sin he partook of sinners. I am sure He did not stand off in a corner mocking and rolling His eyes in disgust, no, He was the light of the world and darkness was His forte. While always guarding against appearing to condone sin, I’m not sure we can ever really show Christ’s love to sinners without being accused of condoning and partaking of their sin. Did not they accuse our sinless Savior of just that? I fear we worry too much about what others will think and not what God’s heart desires. What do you think?
22 Comments(+Add)
Rick – walking in the Spirit is important. The same thing, done for two different motives, could be either right or wrong.
Like you, I don’t really have any answers – but that was a superb article, completely with you on your observations.
–Could it be that some in the gay community felt increasingly empty and began to feel hungry for God, and when they recognized they were not welcome in our churches, they started their own misguided fellowships?–
That could have been. I suppose only those who started those fellowships could say with certainty.
But if we wish to be fair, I think we have to ask question of those who started such fellowships. Is it possible that they mistook instances of concerned rebuke for hatred? Even if they thought their critics may have been too strident, did that make their words untrue? Or did they latch on to the other party’s apparent or real anger to excuse their own sinful activities?
–Could we have embraced them apart from their sin and prayed that the Spirit would gain access into their hearts and change their eternity as well as their lives, all while in the warmth of a loving fellowship of believers?–
Perhaps, but let me look at it from another angle–would they have accepted a “love the sinner, hate the sin” kind of acceptance? Would they not have pressed for the acceptance of their perversions if they had been allowed a foot in the door?
–I fear we worry too much about what others will think and not what God’s heart desires. What do you think? –
You may have a point there, and a good one. I don’t know. Some of it I would say are points of conscience–if a person may be too immature or have experience such that they cannot with a good conscience be around some activities, then their restraint should be respected by those who can. Perhaps they can gain the maturity or healing over time.
With how things can be spun nowadays, it’s tricky.
There are some good things with this post and some surprising:
GOOD: I 100% agree with you that reaching beyond out more to people is needed; not by compromise or appealing to people in a fleshly way, but sincere concern, love and kindness that reflects Jesus’ love toward us
SURPRISING: the curious thing is that these gay churches actually condone REMAINING / PRACTICING homosexuality and justifying it as opposed to trying to find ways to overcome their urges. This leads me to believe that perhaps they had no intention of departing from the lifestyle at all, but simply incorporating it and telling everyone Jesus accepts it to.
We can’t fall for the homosexual agenda (which has successfully vaulted homo rights with civil rights – ridiculous). It could also be, as Paul describes (Romans 1), that people will go to lengths to embrace God while rejecting His principles and statutes.
They have played the victim for so long, pleading for tolerance while hammering anyone who stands against them.
Paul – balanced comment. Yes, there are things about which we need to be careful. The civil rights thing, I’m uninterested in what the secular government does, I belong to Christ.
I would really be confused if the gay community would have started churches which were against homosexuality. The course they took demonstrates their eternal need.
What I mean is that unlike a group of alcoholics that get together to see how they can beat the habit, the homosexual church seems to condone and promote it.
Living in a city with a lot of homosexuals (Toronto), a gay pride parade with over a million attendees every year (with the mayor leading the way, I might add), I see a group that is aggressively anti-God (as opposed to victims of hate-mongering churches). No doubt, they are hurting, but rather than being open to correction they are adamant in their own way.
Still, I like the post because we ought to reach out in a non-compromising fashion much, much more.
I agree and your point is well taken. Because they condone their behavior only substantiates their need and that their attempt to find God is misguided. Mocking and criticizing them does not bring them any closer to redemption, and soft peddling among ourselves their behavior leads to compromise.
I see the gay rallies and my heart breaks, even on an earthly level they seem to be unhappy personally and the rate of suicide is very high. Whether you believe that Jesus died for all or some of them is irrelevant, we all believe He died for some. And with that act of redemption He must have loved them beyond their sin. We should model that love.
Thanks, Paul.
If you’re a friend of sinners, you can go get your “friend of sinners” sidebar graphic that says as much over at Team Pyro.
You could probably put that next to the faux poster graphics that make fun of other Christians.
You know…friend of sinners…not of fellow believers. That kind of thing.
RIck,
This is the point that many “emergents” (including Brian Mclaren) have been trying to point out… do we in our zealousness to “keep the house of God pure” do harm to it by our own standards of who gets in? (I know “we” are the house of God I am speaking like those who speak that way for sake of debate)
We often forget that sin is sin is sin is sin… and it all leads to death. Yet, Life is in the Son… and to get the Life, one must have the Son… so another analogy… we often use Jesus as a door to keep people out, instead of a door that lets people in…
The point that is lost by most in this is that WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT… and if one does He will lead them (gays included) in all truth… and will show them a better way… but we often think our own way is better.
So I think love and acceptance of the person, let God deal with the sin… (unless that person is harming others or boasting that they can still “enjoy their sin.”) and we will see more people changed than any revival preaching ever did.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Rick: The short, simple answer to your question is “yes”…qualified for a portion of those in the gay community. I have known four people that were gay (they all died of AIDS). They had no interest in changing their behavior/lifestyle, in spite of pleadings from family, friends, etc. Two of them grew up in the same church I did–ultimately leaving the church before their deaths.
I think in some cases it could be the actions/attitudes of the church that drives them to create their own congregations, however I think–for the most part–they do so in order to avoid condemnation of their lifestyles. It’s not that people aren’t loving or kind to them; they just don’t want to give up their lifestyle. They don’t want to hear someone quoting 1 Cor 6:9 to them.
I once interviewed an “Elder” from the Metropolitan Community Church in Tulsa, OK for a class I was teaching. She had been married to a pastor in an independent Christian Church before “coming out.” In the course of the interview she defend her being lesbian by quoting Jer 1:5 and John 3:16. Her defense was that God had created her the way she was with full knowledge that she was a lesbian. He “knew her before she was born.” She also appealed to being a “whosoever” and therefore God’s invitation of salvation extended to her regardless of her past, current, and/or continued lifestyle.
Now, I don’t think that negates our/my responsibility to love them, minister to them, and hopefully in the course of doing so, show them the love of Christ.
Julie: I thought the “Friend of Sinners” graphic was pretty good. I put it on my blog. Believe it or not, I do try to be a friend of sinners. I work in a company where I am one of maybe five committed Christians in an office of 25+ non-Christians. We are bombarded daily with some of the most vile language and immoral business practices you can imagine. And yet, when one of the non-Christians has a tragedy in their life, etc. I find them at my door–an opportunity to point them to Jesus.
I’ve met Phil Johnson and Frank Turk; spoken with Phil multiple times at the Shepherds’ Conference, etc. They aren’t as bad as you may think (or they come across at times). I still think their graphics are great–my opinion.
I think their graphics — all of them — are Photoshop overkill and make my eyes weep when I go to their graphic-laden blog.
But that’s just my personal artistic style sensibilities coming to the surface.
My point being, however, not one about being a friend of sinners, but one of a web site that is encouraging people to get a guffaw out of graphics that mock other Christians (and if they aren’t what they consider “true” Christians that would make them…sinners) while also encouraging people to put a “friend of sinners” graphic on their blog.
Seems ironic.
Keith,
“I’ve met Phil Johnson and Frank Turk; spoken with Phil multiple times at the Shepherds’ Conference, etc. ”
The Shepherds’ Conference is a place for like minded people. People are on their best behavior, so I am afraid it isn’t the best place to test people’s character.
Not saying one way or another about Phil since I never met him, but having attended GCC for several years in my formative years, I vehemently disagree with your characterization. Teampyro is very reflective of the GCC culture.
Is the Shepherds’ Conference the one where women aren’t allowed? The one that belongs to the ad with the photo of Johnny Mac smiling and some tag line like “equipping men for God’s work” or something to that effect?
I kind of think so.
I could never meet these nice fellows there. It seems like we further quantify the statement “friends of sinners” the more we delve.
Women aren’t allowed. They may host a special one for the wives, but no women aren’t allowed unless you are there to volunteer (serving food, cleaning up after the men. You know, the household stuff).
Keith, my point is that most people are a lot nicer to agreeable and like minded people. I am that way too, and how I behave around those who share the same mindset as I do is a lousy indicator of my character.
I can’t remember where it is exactly, I think in one of the Corinthian letters, but Paul writes to them to separate themselves form those who act ungodly, but then says that he didn’t mean that they should do so to those who are in the world, because then they would have to be taken out of the world. I looked for it last evening, but couldn’t find that passage, sorry.
If anything, Paul does seem to stress the sinful behavior of those who are fellow believers as being at times grounds for not fellowshiping with them. He tells the Thessalonians to not fellowship with those who were idle and busybodies, while not treating them as enemies. He tells the Corinthians to remove a sexually immoral man from their fellowship in the first letter, while in the second he says that as the man has repented he should be welcomed back.
The standard seems to be higher for believers then for nonbelievers.
Jazz – exactly right.
Women/wives may attend, but they are not “allowed” in the main sessions held in the auditorium/worship center/santuary. They do a live feed to their gym which is open to anyone. There were a couple of years, they had “wives sessions/activities” but I can’t speak for this coming year (2008). Since my wife doesn’t attend, I don’t pay attention to any of that information. (I do think I saw a woman vacuuming in a dress, high heels and a pearl necklace during one of the breaks the last time I attended!)
David, would you mind being more specific re: your time at Grace. On a different note, you stated: The Shepherds’ Conference is a place for like minded people. Of course it is…to a degree–although, last year probably brought to the surface an issue that has largely been ignored/not discussed at previous conferences, i.e. JM’s opening message centered on his opinion that all Calvinists should be Premill. (Interesting he would make that statement with R.C. Sproul as one of the keynote speakers and knowing that a significant number of attendees lean toward an Amill view) Back to your statement, I would think the same to be true of a conference hosted by Rob Bell’s church.
–Jazz – exactly right.–
Thank you.
To look at it in that way from the POV of the OP (my days with YWAM coming back to me with so many initials, LOL
, if some people who were claiming to be Christians were reluctant to give up a lifestyle the Bible says is unacceptable, then really what choice did the churches have but to turn them away? Perhaps we could say the churches should have done it in a more caring way, but that doesn’t excuse those who want to both be considered respectable Christians while also living in blatant disregard of biblical morality.
Crazy smiley again, sorry about that. It’s suppose to be after the LOL. I use those to try to set off attempts at humor.
Smilies are notoriously disobediant and do their own thing on this site, refusing to submit to proper HTML.
They must be female.
–They must be female.–
As I value my life and sanity, I refuse to go even within hailing distance of that…
Run away, run away!!!
Here’s that passage, in I Corinthians 5
9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”[