From John MacArthur himself:
Well, that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith.
Wow, so it’s ok after all? MacArthur later clarifies his statement by saying that he is opposed to the “emptying of the mind”.
The “editor” of CR?N has no comment on this video, although I’d like to hear their opinion on MacArthur’s opening sentence. Be prepared for the backpedal.
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100 Comments(+Add)
I think the problem is associating either Hiduism orChristiabity with it. Just asy it’s exercize!
MacArthur was balanced I think, but just remove “Yoga” and call it “stretching” and viola – go at it!
I am so glad that this issue is settled and John MacArthur agrees with me after all. LOL!
Blessings,
iggy
Yeah, MacArthur and I agree as well.
Actually, Rick, we tried that route several months ago on this thread (beware the 450 comments), and got lots of grief from Ken and amy. Maybe now that Pope John has taken the same position, the rest of his followers will fall in line? (somehow I doubt it…)
MacArthur did a great job — don’t take his first sentence out of context!
Completion is only found in Jesus Christ!
I wonder why the CRN post has no comment but states it is “MacArthur vs. Pagitt on Christians & Yoga”
I can’t listen to the video at work… so will have to later. But what was the “vs.” part… did they agree or disagree?
Thanks,
iggy
Iggy,
They didn’t really “vs” each other. Their verbage varied but essential I thought they said the same things.
clearly,
That is my issue with MacArthur… he states things then negates that very thing… giving the impression that he is double minded on many things.
Do I think he his “anti-Semitic” for instant… yes, but he veils it under the guise one cannot be if they are a “true Christianâ€.
Yet he states things like this… I wonder if it is more that he found he was in agreement with Pagitt and needed to back peddle his way out… as he did with the anti-Semitic statements on Larry King.
Blessings,
iggy
That is what I would have thought knowing what Doug teaches… so then this issue is settled? Or do we now have another one… meaning JM is turning emergent… when will he be on the emergent village podcast!
LOL!
be blessed,
iggy
If Christianity is filling your mind with the Word of God then there are not many Christians. I think that is a limited view of the Christian life although the “wholeness” view is also misleading. The issue is not the exercize or else we could ask MacArthur if any on his staff play golf.
The whole program could have been simple – exercize without the Hindu connotation. I cannot believe how we can make such a simple issue so complex and yet we are willing to compromise on issues of redemption as if the Bible isn’t even clear on that yet real clear on exercise.
The Greek word for that is “goofeos” meaning goofy!
Rick,
So in summary… as long as we do “yoga” positions and call them “stretching exercises, we can comprise our position on Baptism regeneration and infant baptism….
OK I got it… I think…
So a method of salvation is less improtant that whether we “yoga” without Hindi connotations or call it stretching…
Hmm… well maybe not… let me try this again and then get back to you… I might be “getting” all this but it seems to not “fit” my values… so maybe I will have to adjust my values and see if it fits. But right now i am getting a headache.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Now,
having listened to this…
Does MacArthur then deny that Jesus Christ does not not dwell in the believer? If Jesus does dwell in the believer then can we not as we exercise focus on Christ in us our only Hope of Glory?
really what I heard is Macarthur deny the clear teaching of “Christ in us the only Hope of Glory” so that he would not have to back peddle on his opening statement.
Good grief… I was right about the “he states things then negates that very thing” in fact almost every time I listen to him do this he denies clear teaching of scripture or twists it to back his own agenda… I know I am not the only one who sees and hears this going on?
Blessings,
iggy
Wow – you guys have a great ability to confuse a simple thing. Namely: what in the world does a Christian benefit from practicing components of a false religion?
If there are any benefits to yoga, they are overwhelmed by the fact that you are compromising your faith. Look at the Webster’s definition of yoga in the interview.
It is far from just stretching. Some of the comments I see above are like saying, “Just take the lyrics out of ‘Hells Bells’ and, VOILA, it’s just music.” Come on…
Whether there are benefits or not, whether there is danger directly from yoga or not, it is not a practice that Christians should get involved in. Why is this so difficult to grasp?
Paul C – so you disagree with MacArthur where he says “Well, that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith”?
I agree with MacArthur. If you are using yoga to get in touch with your inner chi or whatever, then yes, it’s wrong. If you are doing it for just exercise, then it’s fine with Jesus (and MacArthur).
I don’t think MacArthur is saying that it’s fine at all… that’s where there’s a little twisting here on his initial statement. I’m wondering if you’re all being honest in your assessment or trying to draw a conclusion that’s not even there (saying MacArthur agrees with the other guy).
If you listen to everything in context (the responsible thing to do), then you’ll see that he is opposed to it.
I do agree that it won’t necessarily destroy ones faith, but as Paul said, “All things are lawful, but not everything is expedient.”
That is the mark of wisdom. While a “strong” Christian might partake and not be affected, someone else (who looks up to him for example) might get involved and get carried away.
But, as usual, we can justify whatever actions we like…
I agree Paul to some extent, but then should we celebrate Christmas and Easter because they were pagan observances that were made Christian?
John MacArthur has said that Christmas and Easter are ok. Therefore, they are ok.
I really do not like either, but like Paul said all things are lawful. This yoga thing is an easy target and I suspect the % of Christian partcipation is minimal and any false religion influence even less. I do however see a need for a name change.
Let’s call it “aposti-cising.” Just kidding, of course. I don’t even have a problem calling it yoga, so long as you aren’t doing it to empty yourself or to confab with false gods.
IF MacArthur is in such total disagreement then why lie with the opening statement?
That to me is the real rub… JM states on thing… then negates it..
Now Pagitt did not ever once state that he uses Yoga how John later began stating he was… in fact… Doug was stating that we think on “Biblical” things and be centered on Jesus…
So there is a twisting here… and it was JM twisting what Pagitt really stated… if you watch when Doug does not get to refute the long rant of MacArthur… he sort of goes “oh well” as the commentator states that they are out of time.
So… to say this was a debate and JM won to me misses again that JM totally contridicts himself and in his rant states what might be true from a Hindi perspective but is anti biblical from a Christian perspective…
He denied that we are to empty our selves though we are to be like christ jesus who as taught in Philippians 2: 5:- 7
And that we should focus on good things as Doug pointed out in Philippians 4:8
But worse John MacArthur denies that Christ lives in us… and that as Colossians 1:27
I know John teaches Jesus lives in the believer so to see that he blindly misunderstands what Pagitt stated and the twists it as all wrong… shows JM did not really “get” what was stated….
So my choice is to say… JM did understand and so denied these verses in his attempt to discredit Doug… or he totally missed what was said and just has no clue.
I do not see JM as not having a clue.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Shua – very funny!
Eating at Taco Bell is another method of “emptying one’s self”.
Yes, I went there….
I get the sense that people who are most scared of Yoga have never done it. The idea that people will get “carried away” or possessed or whatever is kind of silly.
I’ve gone a few times. It was, well, exercise. I didn’t want to go back because I basically hate stretching that much. By the time I hit 60 I probably won’t be able to touch my knees.
Here’s another angle to it that I prefer. How about if Christians refrained from Yoga because it’s disrespectful? I think you can make an argument that it’s disrespectful to take what is, essentially, a religious practice and turn it into something that is purely exercise. How would Christians respond if non-Christians partook of the Eucharist because they like the taste of wafers. Mmmm… delicious!
Rick said: “The Greek word for that is “goofeos†meaning goofy!”
Not to be overly critical or nitpicky but it think you meant to say “goofeus”.
So wait, John actual words don’t mean what they mean? He said, it’s OK, but that isn’t what he means? Is that the defense one of his followers just threw up there? That sounds downright emergent! Personally, I’m with Doug on this one.
Joe,
I am told that often when I quote JM’s onw words then I am told “context, context, context” then I show the context and then ask, ” If john wrote a book as an authority on this topic then why is he stating this which contridicts his book?” IOW, why does John state something and it is clear what he means, but then he really never meant that… that is no excuse. In fact it is worse as he comes across double minded and confused. It is double speak at it’s worse….
Meanwhile JM followers can take one statement totally out of context create an entire new context and then say that the person was wrong… of course they are now!
So context means something if someone says one thing but never meant what they actually stated… yet it does not matter if you out to slander you enemies in some fictious “Jesus approved” war.
Golly gee, so where does truth fit in all that?
iggy
Webster’s Dictionary:
Yoga: a Hindu theistic philosophy teaching the suppression of all activity of body, mind, and will in order that the self may realize its distinction from them and attain liberation
“And many that believed came, and confessed, and shewed their deeds. many of them also which used curious arts brought their books together, and burned them before all men; and they counted the price of them, and they found it 50,000 pieces of silver.” (Acts 19:18-19)
In today’s day and age we would accuse these people as being far-fetched, overdoing it or trying to prove a point. I can just see one of the apostles running over and yelling, “Wait! Wait! Don’t worry about all that. Jesus set you free already!”
Instead, the verse continues, “So mightily grew the word of Gd and prevailed.”
Modern-day preacher’s advise: keep your ungodly music, keep your ungodly clothes, habits, friends. Attend the same haunts. Just mix a little Jesus in and it’s all good.
Keep it up.
Paul,
Please answer my question: Do MacArthur’s words mean what they normally mean? When he said, “If it is just exercise, it’s OK…” is that what he meant?
Paul – you have a legitimate view. As far as MacArthur, like all the rest of the so called experts they trot out on TV their view is subordinate to the Scriptures. I just don’t get why the Christians don’t just say “It looks like yoga but it is not”. Because if it is yoga with all the definitions you put forth, Paul, it’s wrong.
Joe – I am not a McArthur defender (as was assumed in a few posts above).
But again, an honest observer would not try to latch onto a single phrase and pull it out of context. When did he say it was “OK”. He didn’t. He said it “probably wouln’t impact your faith.” Maybe, maybe not. But he definitely discourages it, so why the need to wrest and twist his message?
Wrong is wrong. Sorry you can’t see that. It serves to open the door to more ungodliness and mixing of religion.
The other guys comments were so weak it was almost embarrassing. “Jesus never preached against yoga…” What a silly statement.
“For pass over the isles of Chittim and see: and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing. Has a nation changed their gods, which are yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for that which does not profit.” (Jer 2:10-11).
MacArthur’s entire statement (from the transcipt): Well that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith. But in the big picture, why would Christians want to borrow an expression from a false religion, from pantheism (god is everything, you’re god, everything is god), when we believe there’s only one true God (the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ). (Emphasis mine) Why would we need to import that? If you want to exercise, exercise. But why borrow a term that has been part of a false religion for centuries?
I don’t see JM as endorsing “yoga” here. I don’t see “back-paddling.” I think Slice being down has limited your material and caused you to be a little over reactive.
Transcript here
Thank you for answering my question
Keith,
Let’s break his comment down.
1. Well that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise, and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith.
That is fine and dandy… but if he did not mean it then it is not why say it… it seems he IS endorsing it as purely “exercise” I think anyone reading or listening would agree that this is what he stated and (unless he has some sort of disease) truly meant.
2. But in the big picture, why would Christians want to borrow an expression from a false religion, from pantheism (god is everything, you’re god, everything is god), when we believe there’s only one true God (the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ).
Now, here is the area that I think even Doug Pagitt would agree and never stated he was doing… Yet if we took that as the “standard” that is laid down by MacArthur, then Christmas, and Easter (Ishtar) would also fall into this category… but Macarthur does not see that his be so…
3. Why would we need to import that? If you want to exercise, exercise. But why borrow a term that has been part of a false religion for centuries?
Now, here he goes back to the original idea…
Now, Doug never stated he was “emptying himself” and “finding God within” those were John’s words not Doug’s… Doug referred to scripture:
Philippians 4:8
In that he noted that he found a wholeness (which is part of Christianity) that as part of Yoga… the connection of body and spirit… takes on more meaning to a Christian.
Note then (if you listen to MacArthur go on… that Doug is “all wrong” and that it is all about “emptying self” and “seeking god within”…
Note then that at that point IF Macarthur had stated that if it is exercise and one prays and keeps ones focus and prayer on God… there should be no problem.. as we are to do all things as unto God…
Yet, JM negates the scirpture as I stated in a comment above in his rant against what HE thought Doug was saying… but never really “got” what Doug was saying.
Instead of hearing JM just went on a rant against it… yet without realizing it he did contradict himself.
If I go for a walk for “just exercise” then according to JM I am wrong to think on all things pure and to focus on “Christ in me my hope of Glory”… according to JM I must only exercise and not connect it holistically with prayer or contemplation or introspection…
John blew it…
Be Blessed,
iggy
I think John was a little microscopic and Doug was somewhat myopic. There is a problem that can easily be solve by changing the name, and there are incredibly more important issues facing the church today. After we solve the yoga problem let’s get the smurfs and then burn Harry Potter in effigy!
That’s real revival!
Keith,
Now even more that I have read the transcript…
Where does Doug say anything close to what John MacArthur “Well, let me just respond to what I’ve been hearing. That doesn’t sound anything like Christianity.” After JM states that he rants on and on about things Doug never stated… so what was JM listening to? Not Doug… because in this exchange, John somehow heard things not stated and twisted things that were into some other conversation altogether! LOL!
Case and point.
1. Where did Doug state that a whole life comes
Doug stated:
2. John then missed Doug quote scripture not noting that Doug “went to scripture”.
3. John then goes on to state:
Now does “transforms you life” ( which is technically wrong btw) and (makes you a new creation) and “living a life of peace and joy” sound similar to Doug’s statement…
4. John then states:
which made me wonder about all the scripture that God tells us to “meditate” on… so JM negates God’s word in the context of a Christian doing Yoga.
5. Then JM states:
As if he never heard Doug state:
Now having heard Doug teach a few times.. Doug does not negate scripture… but I think that Jesus wants us to have a whole life… Doug is talking that this is part of a whole life not that it is the whole life in and of itself. That is an issue… but that is not what Doug is saying.
Now, Doug is great and speaking a lot of words and if you let him speak out his thought is often very profound… MacArthur is good and speak his faith as succinct as possible, yet cannot get out of his own agenda to actually hear others… he speaks and often needs to go back over what he stated “back peddling” for clarity.
So, as an exercise it is fine, but if it has anything “spiritual” about it is wrong… and that is really fallacious logic as it does not hold out.
Really John spoke past Doug… and never really got what Doug stated…
The real difference is that JM has a narrow perspective of things and Doug a wider one… I am not saying “liberal” view… but that a view with a wider scope and understanding of philosophy, faith, Grace and the freedom we have in Christ… MacArthur seems to fear freedom… and is tightly placed himself into a corner with a narrow philosophy, even from a Christian world view point. It seems time and again JM cannot truly communicate to those who are outside his worldview… Now if you are in agreement you will hear him and “know” what he meant… but the rest of us must go by what he said and that being what he meant.
Be Blessed,
iggy
It sounded a lot like Johnny Mac and Dougie were saying pretty much the same thing. Except that Johnnie Mac later said they weren’t. That was the only really surprising thing that stood out to me.
Johnnie Mac DOES raise a good point though (in context) — why use a word (yoga) and the positions associated with it and reap controversy, when you could just call it something else?
IF the Webster’s definition of “yoga” is to be taken as authoritatively as Scripture, then I would agree that there’s a problem with it. However, if it’s possible that the exercises themselves are neutral spiritually, then again, just call it something different and have at it.
Bet you never thought I’d agree with MacArthur on something, didja?
Iggy: You state: Now if you are in agreement you will hear him and “know†what he meant… but the rest of us must go by what he said and that being what he meant. It works both ways, which is why we’ll never really have agreement here. You and others (Joe comes right out and says he doesn’t like John MacArthur) have as much a predisposition against JM as I do Rob Bell or McLaren therefore WE ALL will hear what we want to hear and believe we know exactly what the speaker meant!
I’ve heard JM “teach a few times” myself. We’re (you and I) are even.
Why thank you for that Kind link Keith!
And where did Jesus promise me a “healed life?” My dad has incurable cancer and my wife has multiple health issues–one so rare, they really don’t know HOW to treat her. Both of them Godly people, Christians. Where’s their “healed life?” Maybe I’ll start following Doug–he’s got a better deal goin’!
I’m going to be brutally honest here–tagging off my previous comments: I like John MacArthur. Other people don’t. I like what JM says, the way he says it, etc. I don’t think he’s perfect. He’s Premill; I’m pretty much Amill. Taken as a whole, though, I appreciate his teaching. I’ll spend my hard earned cash and attend the Shepherds’ Conference AGAIN.
I don’t like Rick Warren, Rob Bell, or Brian McLaren (don’t know a thing about him, but base on his fan base here, I’ll add him to the list). I’ve not read an entire work of Bell’s or McLaren’s. What I did read, didn’t agree with me. I won’t pick up one of their books anymore than someone that doesn’t like JM would take the time to read one of his. I wouldn’t attend a conferernce where any of these men (and others not mentioned here) were speaking if it were FREE and someone paid my way.
In general, I like what Ingrid and Ken Silva say/write. I don’t agree with them 100% of the time.
I come to blogs like this just to see what others are saying. I have ABSOLUTELY NO DILLUSIONAL thought that my words might change someone’s mind. (I think sometimes you guys do.)
The real difference is that JM has a narrow perspective of things and Doug a wider one… Yeah, yeah, yeah. JM’s ALWAYS wrong. Ken’s always wrong. Ingrid’s always wrong. You guys are always right. Rob Bell is right. Doug is right. Brian is right. All God’s REAL chirren IS RIGHT! It never ends…
JM could quote the EXACT words of Jesus Christ himself and somebody around here would take issue with it, i.e. “break it down.” Doug Pagitt says “The Jesus agenda is a whole life, is a complete life, is a healed life” and the sun bursts through the clouds and heavenly music begins to swell as the image of Doug himself comes into view, complete with an angelic, bright light outline.
This blog — whether you admit it or understand it — exists primarily for the edification/amusement/encouragement of those who agree with it…just like the Pyro blog exists.
Again: No body’s going to switch teams because of ANYTHING that is said here or there.
Sorry…I woke up in a snitty mood. I’m going to go meditate now. Huummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…..
Joe: You are welcome. Anything to help out a brother!
CLARIFICATION: …don’t know a thing about him, but base on his fan base here, I’ll add him to the list) referring to Doug Paggit.
Keith,
I refer you to scripture about the healed life… I am not talking about our flesh always being healed… Isaiah 53 is a great start.
The healing is not just getting our flesh restored but more about being regenerated in the spirit… in that we once had a part of us that was dead and now is alive!
Now I am not saying Doug is right on everything any more than you are saying MacArthur is about everything… but, to say the Christian life is not about healing denies that we are regenerated and restored to New Life in Jesus Christ. I hope we both agree that Scripture is always right.
Be blessed,
iggy
Just for the record, if JM was speaking and someone paid my way and the conference was free and they gave me hotel and food accommodations, I’d go. I’d have fun. Maybe do some liveblogging. (On my own personal one, no doubt).
So Keith, if you want to send me, email me and I’ll give you my addy.
That’s certainly your prerogative Keith, but I wish you would, at the least, withhold judgment on individuals if you’re unwilling to figure out what they’re all about.
For the record, isn’t this Pagitt character the same one who put out this ridiculous video found here?
http://www.alittleleaven.com/2007/08/a-great-example.html
Tim,
I don’t know if I would go even if it was free… I would be more afraid that I would be taken out to an alley and beaten to death from all my run ins with people associated with John MacArthur.
So, at least in this case… fear is a motivation! LOL!
Now, I have had a couple of people tell me they will send me a MacArthur book but they did not seem to have done that yet… I would read one… and have (John has his… but I will not buy one as I have better things to do with my money… but I do utilize the local library.
I am curious though about this book… and what did John have to revise about Jesus’ Gospel? “The Gospel According To Jesus, Revised”
LOL!
Blessings,
iggy
Igs,
You know, I read that book, and I know its completely unfair but I had a hard time taking the rest of it seriously when dispensationalism managed to come into play within the first few chapters.
Paul,
I agree that video is not one of the most shining example of who the emerging church is… but to paraphrase my MacArthurite friends… “Context, context, context”!
If you listen close to what is being said somethings sound like the denial of “truth” as the lady in it states something like the bible is not static… well it isn’t it is God’s written word and “it is living” and “God breathed” so it is not statice as many teach. I think her phrasing is a bit off but knowing the perspective I believe that was what she was trying to convey.
Also most just mock how these people look… but coming out of the biker background… I have long hair, wore leather, rode a harley and smoked about two packs of cigs a day… and I loved Jesus. So how some are judging how these people look “They look drugged out” is on comment I remember, seems a bit un biblical and shallow.
Also, this is an artistic community so they are not left brain thinkers… they think in concepts not liniear as many other do… which is part of the reason so many artists feel not welcome in a “normal” church… they do not think like some and do not fit in…. and are often quenched in their artisty by good meaning “Christians”.
Again, I totally agree that video is pretty bad… it is too dark and the people do not seem to saying what most would accept as “biblical”, but praise God they are worshipping Jesus and getting together to learn more of Him and scripture.
Doug is not out to change people… he is out to intorduce them to Jesus to let Jesus change them… I think that is a much better way than if i try to change someone… really I want them to conform to the image of Jesus not iggy.
Be blessed,
iggy
Keith – I like John MacArthur also, I used to get his tapes sent to me. He is a great teacher. And if Paggitt was saying God wants everyone whole including the physical, then he is wrong. I do not know him but I just annot believe intelligent men like him do not see the inconsistency of calling it yoga for goodness sakes.
Change the name and then stand on one foot, how hard is that.
Or, Paul, you could just refer to him as “Pagitt.” I don’t see anyone saying something like “Isn’t that Paul C. character the same one…”
Rick,
What’s a tape?
Rick,
man i say all these nice things about you and you go and diss my friend Doug…
There are some really good things about Doug… though it seems that news interviews (though I think he did better this time) and a certain video (like that one everyone loves to mock) have not done much for him.
What I do like about Doug is he can connect relationally to others and in that share Jesus with some many just have given up on. I think this is like having a beer to some… some have no issue at all and don’t give it a second thought. some think about it but still think it is fine but are cautious around those who may have issues, then there are those who think it ok but abstain, then there are those who abstain becuase it is wrong to them… then there are those who just should never drink not because it is wrong, but becuase they become self destructive.
To me, Yoga is like that. Now if my wife stated she was interested… which she stated she is… and has done a bit of Yoga, thought it very refreshing and in a way spritually invigorating… yet, she also noted that the instructor was more into the “inner me” approach which my wife did not do or agree with. My wife’s focus was prayer and Jesus.
Now, she stated as we talked about this that she would do a “Christian Yoga” where the focus is not about the “self” but on Prayer and Jesus.
To me I see that the mind and body are interconnected. When I feel badly I often cannot focus on Jesus as well… when i feel good and healthy I can focus better on others and Jesus.
I am not saying this is all about “feeling” but that as the mind and body intergrate, one can use all their resource unto God in a better way than if one sits around eating chips and cake and feeing like garbage…
Man does have a body… and God created it. We also have a mind which God created… It seemed fitting to God to put these two things together… so I do not see that it wrong seeking a holistic connection of body and mind serving God together as He purposed.
Just kidding,
iggy
Sorry Julie…
But I had to smile when the moderator asked him if “Jesus would approve of yoga.” He obviously heard the question but sensed a trap and tried to manouevre a little (anyone with any sense would have noticed that). Rather than being up-front and answering the question about something he is promoting, he dodged it and gave a lame answer. I call that “being a character”.
If nothing else, that antic should have sounded off a clarion call on everyone here who is debating right or wrong. If one of the proponents (Pagitt) was not able to answer directly then who here is foolish enough to do so.
“Would Jesus approve of yoga?”
INTENTIONAL PAUSE AS HE RACKS HIS BRAIN FOR AN ANSWER
Stalling, “Sorry, were you asking me if Jesus would approve of yoga?”
Followed by blather…
Paul C- JM answered directly? He said it was ok for a strong Christian who just did it for exercise and then said it was wrong if you did it with the intent of incorporating false religion?
Hey to lighten the mood.
Happy Ramadan and Roshashana!
OK, call it “Yogi”!
I like yogurt!
Joe: You know…I think if we both went to the Shepherds’ Conference (sorry–all available scholarships are already taken) and avoided any talk about doctrine/theology–just hung out and enjoyed the CA weather, etc. I bet we’d have a good time. You seem to have a similar, caustic sense of humor as my own.
We’ll meet up some day on the other side and share a few laughs. Looking forward to it.
===
Rick: I still have a TON of those tapes. “Change the name and then stand on one foot, how hard is that. ” Good point.
===
Iggy: You’re correct. “Scripture is always right.” Problem is, we don’t always have the correct interpretation…and maybe never will in some cases.
===
Tim: I think understand you’re point, but like I said–just being brutally honest. I’m not going to tell you I’ll think about it–because I’m not. I’m not arguing that’s the best way to handle it, but that’s the way I’m handling it right now.
On an unrelated note, you (I think) mentioned Alexander Campbell on another thread. How many people in your congregation know who he or his father Thomas were? Just curious.
Thanks Keith, we enjoy your input, it keeps Iggy honest!
“What is a tape” (Tim)
I used to head up the Luther tape ministry.
Let no man despise your youth, Tim. Just make sure you entreat me as a father!
Gasp I have to agree with iggy to a certain degree on this one I think John comes off as double minded.
“Well, that would depend on how the yoga is conducted. If it’s just purely exercise and you’re a strong Christian, it probably wouldn’t have any impact on your faith.”
I certainly am not going to defend the Emergent church but isnt this the stance most Emergents take?
Yoga as exercise?
I know this could vary.
But the thing John must know is that you cant seperate the exercise from the religious practice it is linked to.
Go out on the net and search around we have even dumfounded the swamis on this one who know you cant seperate the exercise (which represents giving glory to some of their zillion gods by taking their form or shape.)
And how does John define a strong Christian?
What if someone who thinks there strong goes out and stumbles?
I read the transcripts and then John goes on to say.
“But in the big picture, why would Christians want to borrow an expression from a false religion, from pantheism (god is everything, you’re god, everything is god), when we believe there’s only one true God (the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ). Why would we need to import that? If you want to exercise, exercise. But why borrow a term that has been part of a false religion for centuries?”
This is the first time Ive got to say that I have to heard John speak in very black and white terms.
His first statement seemingly saying yoga was ok if your strong as a Christian and you use it just as exercise is error on Johns part.
And he needs to clarify and repent of this point.
John never really stated that yoga was bad just suggested it.
Again he needs to clarify.
I think its great to see Doug out there .
Keep talking Doug I figure after the Bob Dewaay debate Doug would retire.
Glad to see he is still out there commenting and showing what Emergent stands for.
Peace
Tim
Keith,
And as Shakespeare’s Hamlet would say,
Now we also as Christians need to give grace and mercy in abundance as grace and mercy was given in abundance to us…
In that God’s word is clear, but whether we desire to see choose not to see, or only can see through our preferred filter will give us a slightly tainted view. Truth in itself does not change but our perspective will change of it as we grow…
So, interpretation be it good bad ugly or what need be received with Grace and Mercy… as we are all wrong somewhere… and that my friend is “the rub”.
Be Blessed,
iggy
I posted this over at Pulpit Mag… starting with a quote from earlier in the comment thread…
“I find it heartbreaking when someone allows the practices of a religion that denies Christ as Savior into a building designed to worship Him.â€
Me too– that’s why I’ve abandoned Easter and Christmas, and everything related to them, refuse to use words like “Thursday†and “Saturday†because of their pagan origins and…
Oh wait. I didn’t do that.
And I’ll bet neither have you.
While I would like to have heard Doug (who I consider a friend!) make a statement about some kind of boundaries (â€Of course, often Hindu spirituality IS woven into yoga and that should be avoided by those following Jesusâ€) I’m basically with him. Simply because people who don’t follow Jesus meditate doesn’t mean I can’t if I’m meditating on the right thing. Ditto prayer, serving the poor, and in my opinion yoga.
For me, yoga is a great means of stretching and exercise (which, looking at the average American Pew-Potato, we could all use a bit more of) and more importantly, a time of prayer- a time to prostrate myself before God, focus on the words of the Bible I have just read and PRAY.
We don’t need to abandon every practice simply because of non-christian origins. We redeem them. Some practices may be antithetical to the gospel and need to be avoided all together, but MacArthur and others here have failed to make that case as regards yoga. I especially love the guys who claim that Paul’s eating-meat-sacrificed-to-idols argument is basically anti-yoga- when he says clearly “For why should my freedom be limited by what someone else thinks? If I can thank God for the food and enjoy it, why should I be condemned for eating it?†His point is to protect the consciences of weaker Christians…
So
1. You claiming that I can’t do yoga puts you in the position of “weaker brotherâ€. If that’s where you want to be, okay… but most who push an anti-yoga agenda do so because they think they are more mature and “discerning.â€
2. Paul’s argument would lead me to believe that it’s wrong for me to try to get you to participate with me. Also, for me to do it in front of you? Probably not great since your conscience is weak in this area. But for you to forbid me from doing yoga stretches as I pray?
“Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!â€? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.â€
I want those who criticize this practice on the basis of “pagan origins†to put up or shut up. Are you willing to never again have a Christmas tree? To never use the phrase “Easter†or “Wednesday�
If not, if you actually believe that such pagan practices can be redeemed and turned towards the worship of the one true God, how about a little benefit of the doubt here?
That’s not true. In the ‘nati (my hometown) there’s a tradition of walking this set of steps at easter and praying while doing so. You could easily take the walk and not pray. Will doing so improve your prayer life? No. The same thing applies here.
Tim I appreciate what you have to say but the Hindu swami’s dont see a differance.
They see the exercise as one with the religious practice.
And they are the ones the practice stems from.
So then can we truely state that the exercise is apart from the religious practice since the forms are tied to their gods and animals etc..?
I used to practice this as well and didnt see the harm until I learned what the poses represented
Peace
Tim Wirth
Tim – valid point. But although I’ve heard of yoga, I’ve never seen it and if I went to an exercize class and they were playing praise music and doing stretching things I wouldn’t think a thing of it. Ask no questions for conscience sake.
Tim Wirth,
So do you propose then that the physical act of walking these steps are an instant boost to your prayer life? If not, then why would you believe the same here?
Keith,
I didn’t see your question until just now. In my congregation, at least, I’ve known about Campbell and Stone and the history of the Restoration Movement since probably Jr. High (I’ve always been a history buff), and I studied them a bit more at Milligan College before I transferred to Purdue and switched majors from Theater/Communications to Engineering.
What, in particular, is your point in bringing them back into the conversation? I would note that it is my background in the Restoration Movement, in which Campbell was probably the key figure in its foundation, that led me really to create this site and to take many of the stands that I have taken toward unity, rather than tearing down the body…
Sorry about that Keith, didn’t see that question.
First, let me make this point. The lack of knowledge about Alexander Campbell is part of his own legacy. That was kind of the point.
His legacy isn’t found in his biography being taught in our Sunday school classes and pulpits, rather its found in his teachings concerning a return to how the early church was structured (especially how we view other Christians), a reliance on scripture as supremely authoritative and (of course) specifically doctrine concerning baptism. I believe these things are still quite vibrant in the Restoration Movement.
As to how many know who he is. Some, but certainly not all.
Hi Tim Reed you stated
” there’s a tradition of walking this set of steps at easter and praying while doing so. You could easily take the walk and not pray. Will doing so improve your prayer life?”
Im not sure how you are comparing this to yoga?
In the tradition you mentioned Do they state it will improve your prayer life?
I was raised Catholic so Im not sure who’s tradition this is.
Could you explain the roots of your tradition so I could properly respond.
Yoga did originate with the Hindu religion so Im not sure I get your comparision.
Thanks for your comments Im just trying to understand the comparision and where you are coming from so I could use a little more detail and information on the tradition you mentioned.
Just off the cuff I would say that walking any steps would not boost any prayer life.
But was the walking on the steps meant to pay homage to Our God or something else?
Please clarify.
Thanks
Tim Wirth
Tim W,
Here’s a bit more on it, though the article itself is skewed toward Catholicism it has become something of a ecumenical tradition in recent years.
Also, let me make this point. If you are willing to say that Yoga is inherently worship of a false god based on the physical positioning of the body, then you are essentially agreeing that Hindu teachings are true. Why do you believe that Hindu teachings are true on this point, but not ultimately true? How are you sifting it out?
Here’s a couple of questions:
1) Are there certain body positions which are ontologically evil?
2) If so, can you please list what those body positions are, and the scriptural support for their being so?
1 Cor 8 has much to say here.
The hindu gods are no gods at all…
“So then, about eating food sacrificed to idols: We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.”
The problem is…
“But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.”
No- exercise will not bring you nearer to God- but just like eating well and putting good things into your body is a way to honor God, staying fit is as well. And you have freedom in how you remain fit…
“Be careful, however, that the exercise of your freedom does not become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone with a weak conscience sees you who have this knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, won’t he be emboldened to eat what has been sacrificed to idols? So this weak brother, for whom Christ died, is destroyed by your knowledge. When you sin against your brothers in this way and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. Therefore, if what I eat causes my brother to fall into sin, I will never eat meat again, so that I will not cause him to fall.”
Let’s be clear- we’re talking about Christians practicing the physical postures of yoga, not the associated spirituality. That would be, in my opinion, actual idol worship.
But in the same way Paul advised that I am free to eat meat offered to idols, but should be careful of how I do so lest I harm someone else’s conscience, I am free to practice the physical postures of yoga– but need to be careful how I exercise that freedom.
For those like Tim who say that the physical postures of yoga CANNOT be disassociated from the spiritual practices and meanings, I ask this: Can meat sacrificed to idols be eaten without partaking in the worship of false gods? If so (and the biblical answer is “yes- but be careful”), then tell me why this is categorically different
Great Points Bob, I was just about to post something similar and then there was yours!
“1) Are there certain body positions which are ontologically evil?”
Yes, the open mouth with a moving tongue.
But this is also a revelation of how the church cannot even after two thousand years deal with even the simplist issue. Change the name, play instrumental praise music in the background, recite the bodily exercize profits little verse before beginning, and close with a Christ honoring prayer.
Viola – problem solved, now let’s help solve the divorce issue!
Some are looking for demons under ever rock with which to make an issue, not solve a problem. And if Pagitt thinks it is somehow helping to make a person spiritually whole he is wrong on that issue. Perhaps God will refine him, just like he is doing to…us.
QFT
I’ve seen this topic come up before here.
During that time arguments were put forth about Christmas trees. (I don’t do them, but if the point were to cut a tree down, take it home, fashion it into an idol and worship it, I’d have to pass.)
Our days of the week and months of the year became an issue. (I have to confess I’m not worshipping the sun or the sun god on Sunday, any more than I am the moon or Monday, Mars on Tuesday or Mardi, Woden (Odin) on Wednesday, Thor on Thursday, Freya on Friday or Saturn on Saturday. Or Janus, Mars, Juno, Julius or Augustus in those months.)
The Seventh Day Adventists are encouraged become vegetarian because Ellen White said those who eat meat will not be translated, though Romans 14:2 is interesting in that regard. SDA’s often have a healthier lifestyle than most, which is fine. The problem is that they attach their salvational doctrines and religious dogma to those practices.
To be sure, strecthing has been around a lot longer than yoga; any yogi will admit that.
The problem comes when you begin to tack on Hindu distinctives to a common everyday act.
Sanskrit is the sacred language of Hinduism. Yoga, guru, swami, karma, chakra, namaste, mantra — all Sanskrit.
Let’s look at from the Hindu’s point of view.
A swami once said in a radio interview with Todd Friel that Christians need to understand all yoga is Hinduism. There is no Jesus in Hinduism. There is no Brahman in Christianity.
A caller asked:
Yes, uh- as I said, I’m a Christian believer, and I have a little bit the same question, or the opposite I guess. I have had for years a little bit of a low back pain, and I found out probably 20 years ago that there’s a stretching exercise that gives very pleasant relief. Involves laying on my back, and bringing my legs up over my head so that my toes are touching the floor. And, uh-
-The plow position.
(Bill) What’s it called?
The plow position, (? Hindu word).
(Bill) Plow position? Okay. I learned recently that this is a yoga position, so my question for Todd is, I’ve done this for years, simply to stretch out the back muscles in my back, and it affords considerable relief from the low back pain when I experience it, and so, my question for Todd is- Why would I be violating my Christian faith by practicing this stretching exercise, especially since all these years I didn’t even know it was a yoga position. And now that I do, would you say that I am in violation of my Christianity by continuing to practice this exercise, this stretching exercise. And then my question for the Swami is, are you offended that I, as a Christian, am doing this simply to stretch out the muscles in my lower back?
(Todd Friel) Alright, you’re very fair, let’s give it a go. Fire away, Swami.
“Oh, wonderful question. Of course not, I’m not offended. Stretching and relaxation is one thing. If you’re doing Hatha yoga, that’s quite something else. Again- everybody takes a bath, but baptism is something different. Stretch away, enjoy it. We should be able to learn from other cultures and traditions. But you’re not doing the Hatha yoga (? Hindu word), not using the Sanskrit terms. Stretch away! I’m sure that Hindus didn’t invent that. (Laughs) There are various stretches. Well there are classes, find yourself a stretch class. Meridian stretching, for example. But stretch away, George, and good luck with your back.”
Regarding that peaceful easy feeling many talk about having during and after a session:
“Well, why would they have to do yoga? Maybe they ought to become Hindus- if they’re feeling all that peaceful and relaxed. If you can find it within your own religion, great, if you can’t, well then maybe you need to go someplace else, or look more deeply into your own religion.”
I have the transcript of this interview if anyone’s interested.
Here is the perspective of someone who was involved in it before becoming a Christian.
Tim Reed-
Thanks for the article that was interesting since Im a former Catholic.
I would not think anything tied to the rosary would be a good idea.
I dont hate Catholics I was almost on the road in 7th grade to becoming a Vincentian priest.
But then I kissed Barbera Spangler and found out a priest couldnt marry so that was the end of that.
Ahh if I only knew about those Luthereans.
Sorry for the bunny trail.
I have a big problem that Catholics accept tradition at the same level as scripture.
So even though I see your point as well as Sandmans post which was very informative as well let me just say this.
I dont think anyone is going to hell for practicing yoga.
Just as much as one would not go to hell for reading a Harry Potter book.
You would only go to hell if you dont believe in Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior.
If you compromise you could very well be on the road to deeper deception.
Thats what I believe.
So lets just say I believe that once you know the connections of yoga and you get information about things.
You are responsible to react in whatever way you think and rspond to scripture and what God states about using eastern practices and if He is cool with that..
It really is a pagan practice though and I dont believe that its best practice for a Christian.
I dont say this as a hateful comment.
Just a word of warning and caution and that it could possibly open you up to further spiritual deception.
And this watch doggie would not want any of you to stumble.
I really do care about people here even though we may disagree on many things.
Its my sincere hope that you all finish well in a way that truely honors God.
But its up to you to choose which way to act on information you are given.
Peace
Tim Wirth
Then I kissed Barbera Spangler…how many life decisions were altered after “I kissed So and So…”
Priceless
Great comment, Tim. OK, a little satire(Tim’s post).
I was going to become a Baptist pastor until I kissed my roomate Bill and I went emergent. (or Episcapol, etc.)
See, good satire. Thanks Tim!
Chris L and Tim: I’ve been out of pocket this weekend, so I’m just getting back to reading through the thread.
I asked about Thomas / Alexander Campbell just out of curiosity. I attended a Restoration Movement church for about 16 years. I was raised Southern Baptist; married a Christian Church girl that didn’t want to change churches. I even ended up serving as an Elder in the CC for a while. I read up on the Campbells because I wanted to know about the movement. I was shocked at how many people joined the church and hadn’t a clue as to its history (”We just LOVE the children’s program” or “we really like the music at First Christian.” Very few seemed to care about the origins of the “non-denomination” they were part of.)
I never bought into the losing your salvation ¹ or baptism is an essential part of salvation things. Interestingly enough, lots of folks that joined the CC during my time there didn’t realize those were part of the history/doctrine that was rarely discussed. I was asked to step down from a teaching position in the CC…not because of my “reformed doctrine” (most of the Elders couldn’t even discuss the topic). I was outed because I didn’t agree with a building program. Of course, the story going around is that I was asked to leave because “Keith doesn’t believe in baptism.” Funny how things get worded a certain way. In the words of Jerry Seinfeld: “It’s not a lie as long as you believe it’s true.”
Frankly, it has been a blessing that I was asked to leave. I was not happy there; the leadership had become enamored with Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, etc.; joined the Willow Creek Association…you get the picture. I spoke with one of the current members the other day. His description of the current conditions: “We’re a tennis court and swimming pool away from a country club.”
===
¹ I’ve never met ANYONE from the CC that has lost their salvation or that knew someone that had lost their salvation. They believe it can happen…it’s just never happened to them or anyone they know!
Keith,
I can’t help but see that you’re busy judging an entire movement based on your experiences with a church.
Rick, that’s just wrong (but funny). You almost made me spray my monitor.
Tim:
Not an entire movement…just the congregations I’ve personally been affiliated with. Hopefully, they are not all like that. Are you saying you DO know someone that has lost their salvation or was there something else in my statements?
Keith,
Sure. Not “lost” in the sense of accidentally misplaced it. But “lost” as in deliberately put it off.
Tim: “…deliberately put it off. “ Clarification please. Are you saying, haven’t gotten around to making that choice OR made the choice (confession, claimed Christ, etc.) exhibited what appeared to be “fruit”, but then abandoned the faith–so to speak–returning to the life before “conversion?”
Keith,
Not just abandoned but actively opposed to the point of hate.
Tim: So…were they actually saved before” the abandoning of faith” or just putting on an act? I realize this is a question only God can answer for sure, but–if you don’t mind–your opinion.
Keith,
If they weren’t part of the kingdom, then its impossible for anyone to tell if anyone is ever part of the kingdom.
I have met several who would have been considered mature and witnessing believers who now reject Christ. Only God knows if they were saved, but Hebrews teaches that is possible for believers to committ apostacy, not just churches.
Apostacy is openly denying the faith, not backsliding.
Tim:
Thanks for taking time to respond.
Iggy… comments on your “respected” pastor on these comments from CNN?:
http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/sounds/02pagitt.mp3
Pagitt mocks MacArthur for saying that going to God’s Word relieves stress? Yoga is a higher form of stress relief than God’s Word? And the giggling and adolescent chatter is so unseemly. There is no such thing anymore as Christian discourse when after the “show” one man mocks another.
To say it is sad in an understatement.
Chris S and Rick F,
I think we need a little context here. MacArthur attacked Doug… and the more interesting response is not Doug’s, but the woman that was there with Doug who listened to the whole thing live.
Also, Doug and company did not declare “war” on truth or MacArthur… it was JM that has done this… with false accusations.
Now I have stated many things “mockingly” yet in good humor about what people say about me. I cross the line at times…
BTW Chris, Doug is NOT MY pastor… and your own tone seems a bit “mocking” if you ask me.
I have heard the mp3 and to me… it is Doug being Doug and it is not about Doug mocking someone… it is a real person.
It does seem that we forget that Grace is to all… am I happy with how Doug is reacting… not with everything, yet, I think that this response from Doug is the best one I have seen as a rebuttal to JM and crew.
http://pagitt.typepad.com/pagittblog/2007/09/the-battle-begi.html
(Yes I see he uses the “s” word… so did Luther so before you attack Doug, defend Luther)
http://pagitt.typepad.com/pagittblog/2007/09/this-winks-for-.html
So I to give a wink here to you both… in love!
; )
Be Blessed,
iggy
Not to condone Padgitt’s comment (though off-the-air and to a friend), but MacArthur’s answer seemed rather trite/simplistic, along the same lines as Paul Tautages (sp?) admonitions on the use of Christian counselors and psychiatric drugs.
Certainly we should go to scripture, but does that mean to the written scripture and quiet study? After all, we went 1400+ years between Jesus and the invention of the printing press.
My understanding of Christian “yoga” is that it includes meditation upon scripture. Additionally, we are to love God with mind, soul, heart and strength. In the ‘modernized’ world, people are generally MUCH less physically fit than in previous generations, and much of what is now seen as ’stress’ is partly caused by this – call it a lack of loving God with one’s strength. A number of physical activities – when taken in proper balance – are necessary. So the question becomes, is low-impact stretching (the physical component of “yoga”) an acceptable form of loving God with one’s strength?
MacArthur’s glib response, notwithstanding, gives no comprehensive answer.
I have no problem with exercizing while meditating upon Scripture or thinking about the kids or whatever. I do have a problem with Pagitt’s minimizing Scripture and language on his blog. I guess that dates me. MacArthur sometimes acts like a no it all, so I don’t support either one.
Also it is crazy to say MacArthur preaches a perverted gospel. Here is a list of preachers who would consider his gospel a little light:
Wesley, Edwards, Mills, Finney, and many others. I just cannot get over the careless overstatements. Oh well, again that dates me. I feel like I get hit from both sides, that means I’m a cult.