10. Make sure everyone else does it exactly like you
9. Attack from a position of strength, remember, you are not learning – you know
8. Become obsessive with research, not about the Bible, but about people
7. Like an infomercial, gather a hand picked audience to over-approve your every word
6. Only speak of Jesus as a doctrinal object who is on your side
5. Never admit repentance yourself, you now have put away childish things
4. Search for personal sin and when you find it quickly expose it as proof of your view
3. When a devotion is necessary, copy it from someone else, it will save time
2. Do not let humility get in your way, it only dulls your Sword
1. Watch out for the verses about mercy, forbearance, grace, love, gentleness, patience, brotherhood, comfort, intercession, brokenness, weeping, unity, meekness, compassion, and Christlikeness, these are land mines that will keep you from your objective.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
34 Comments(+Add)
this post was satire right?
i did some poking around on the internet and discovered that rick/henry frueh has a really bad habit of going to other people’s blogs and saying some of the most graceless, loveless, and unkind things about calvinists.
one blog even has a couple of articles dedicated to rick/henry’s bad manner posts.
on one blog rick/henry calls calvinists “cultish blasphemers”
http://www.oldtruth.com/blog.cfm/id.2.pid.697
at the relevant christian blog rick/henry even makes calvinists sound like muslims rick/henry said “there is only one god and calvin is his messenger.”
i’m not a calvinist but i have some dear christian brothers and sisters who are. i sure don’t see any love, any humilty, any brotherhood, any comfort, any brokeness, unity, meekness or compassion from rick frueh. his rhetoric and attitude is toxic and merciless.
he is the last person to be lecturing anyone about any of qualities listed in this post.
Simon,
I realize you’re parroting Jim’s headline over at Old Truth, but Rick did not refer to Calvinists as “cultish blasphemers”.
First he referred to Calvinism as cultish in the sense that once you toe the party line you’re in the club and everyone outside of the club is demonized. While that may or may not be true of Calvinism in general, it is certainly true of the brand of Calvinism we see commonly on these blogs.
He also referred to the claim of limited atonement as a blasphemy. That particular Calvinist theology claims that Christ died only for those who are saved. Rick is not a Calvinist, rejects that claim and so refers to is as blasphemy as it perverts the love of God for humanity into the love of only particular bits of humanity.
Does holding those two views of Calvinism boil down to a charge of calling it a “cultish blasphemy”? You can decide that if you want. But I will point out that the people you’re defending often refer to Rick (and yourself) as Pelagian, apostates, blasphemers, mystics, etc. And while this type of labeling comprises a large amount of the work of Silva, C?N, and others it comprises very little of Rick’s work. Check out his blog and you’ll find that very little of it is Calvin bashing. On the other hand all of these blogs you’re quoting from are devoted to shredding all those outside of Calvinism.
And Simon is one of the nicer oldtruth.com followers…
and did Simon even notice that Jim Biblitz has redirect this website from being able to go and read the link he provided?
If I could read what Simon posted… then Simon might have a case, but since Jim does not want anyone who he deems unworthy to read his website, then I guess we are spared the “truth”….
Really Simon… I have friends who are Calvinists also and am not one myself… i also have Arminian friends and am not one of those either… but I have see and been attacked by many more Calvinist than I have ever been Arminians… in fact I have experience more grace from Arminians that Calvinist who claim to hold to the doctrines of Grace.
Beware of Calvinism without love… it is the worst of religion as it assumes you are secure yet can mock those who you deem are not. It breeds a judgmentalism that rationalizes judging other eternal destiny…
Ask Jim… he’ll tell you so.
And truthfully there was not much love, any humilty, any brotherhood, any comfort, any brokeness, unity, meekness or compassion in your comment about Rick either…
Which seems to only strengthen Rick’s point…
Be blessed,
iggy
Simon,
Are you tattling on Rick? Seriously, how was your post helpful? How was it edifying? Why do we all act as if we are still in kindergarten?
I propose that we get past the enmity, the strife, and the “you do it too!” and get to reason, arguments, and nuance. And, honestly, Rick’s point is well-made. There are serious and systemic weaknesses to several ODMs, particularly CRN and Apprising Ministries. That, of course, doesn’t mean anyone here (or anywhere, for that matter) is perfect. We are all flawed.
But let’s get past the kindergarten antics. Let’s instead work together to make this site, together with the ODMs, places where the truth is spoken, grace is given, and God is glorified.
i spent quite a bit of time researching rick/henry frueh and found comments by him littered all over the web. rick seems to be obsessed with bashing calvinists.
by your own admission a small portion of his own site is dedicated to bashing calvinists.
in all seriousness, how much of rick’s site has to be dedicated to bashing calvinists before you’ll say its too much? would be okay for me to put up a christian blog and dedicate 5% of it to anti-semitism and jew bashing? after all 95% of it would be good christian stuff so that makes it okay right?
also, i was not only quoting from odm sites. the comment rick made that compared calvinism to islam was made at relevant christian. that blog is friendly to your site.
http://relevantchristian.wordpress.com/2007/09/13/the-simplicity-of-the-gospel-part-2/
i also went over and read ken silva’s site and didn’t find any reason to think that he is calvinist. he quotes from a lot of different protestants but i wasn’t able to figure out what he is. and chris rosenborough from extremetheology is a lutheran.
your story isn’t adding up.
if all of these odm sites are “devoted to shredding all those outside of calvinism” as you say that they are, then shouldn’t jim from old truth be shredding ken silva and shouldn’t ken silva be shredding chris rosenborough and shouldn’t chris rosenborough be shredding ken silva and jim?
those guys are all different. one is a protestant mut, one is a calvinist and one is lutheran but they all seem to be united against the same things.
how do you explain that? you’re the one telling me that all of these sites are ‘devoted to shredding all those outside of calvinisn’. but that is just not true.
i think you guys put this site up so that you can have a pity party and complain about how your feelings got hurt by those ‘mean old’ odm sites. but you don’t even really know what they believe. and it doesn’t seem like you have even taken the time to find out.
your best argument is that you are “more loving†than the odm sites? oh and you allow dissenting opinions to be posted in your comments section.
big deal. how come you guys don’t post verses that show that calvinism is wrong? is it because there aren’t any? or is it because you’re too lazy to do any real research?
if you expect me to think you guys are right just because you quote verses about how loving your are then you are out of your minds.
like i said earlier, i don’t see any love, mercy, grace or gentleness from rick frueh. he has no right lecturing people on that subject because he isn’t living it.
Simon,
Whoa. Relax.
A couple of things. First, I think that if you really went through the websites you mention, you would have seen that they are all united by virtue of a belief in monergism. The fact that Ken is associated with the SBC and that Chris is Lutheran isn’t really relevant. If you want specific posts from Extreme Theology or AM, I’d be happy to provide them.
Second, I think that there are plenty of discussions here about divine election. I don’t find them particularly fruitful (who are we convincing, really?) but they’re there. And I don’t think anyone is too lazy around here. That’s kind of a harsh invective to throw around casually.
Third, I’d take a deep breath. These kinds of discussions are much bigger than Rick. He isn’t perfect, for sure, but the fact that he’s just a man surely cannot be some kind of trump card. There are points made on this website that are valid. For the ones that aren’t, I’d love to see a few arguments and some changed minds.
That would be a breath of fresh air.
m.g.
rick being human is hardly the point. the point is that rick is being a hypocrite. when i read this post i felt like i was being given a lecture on marital fidelity by ted haggard.
as for the monergism thing, that is not what tim said. he said that all those odms were into shredding all those outside of calvinism’. but now you’re saying that isn’t true.
so are saying the real issue that you guys are fighting is monergism?
if that is the case then you guys are fighting a losing battle. the bible is against you which means god is against you.
no wonder you guys keep talking about how loving your are. you’ve haven’t got any other legs to stand on. and since rick has a calvin bashing fetish you can’t even properly play the love card.
oh this is rich.
Simon,
I was using monergism as a short-hand for Reformed theology just because “Calvinism” can be misleading. I don’t know where the ODMs you mention fall on the five-point scale.
And the point of this site is not to fight monergism. Let’s not get side-tracked. Allow me to recap the argument thus far and make it really simple.
Tim: Some of Rick’s criticisms may be valid because the ODMs tend to be very harsh on those who do not share their (Calvinist, monergist, Reformed) views.
Simon: Tim, you’re crazy. They don’t agree on (Calvinism, monergism, Reformed Theology).
M.G.: Simon, you’re wrong. They are all pretty condemning on anyone who may self-identify as Arminian.
So this isn’t *really* about monergism vs. synergism. So, I’ll grant for the sake of argument that you’re right. I’ll assume that God is against synergism. The point remains, however, that all the ODMs both agree on some key points of doctrine as it pertains to divine election and need to extend a little more grace to their Arminian brothers and sisters.
As far as Rick being a hypocrite… I don’t know Rick and I’m not his apologist. I haven’t met him. I have no wish to roam the internet for a few hours and arrive at some hasty conclusion. That you’ve done some research over the past few hours and are so sure in your pronouncements, however, probably says more about your character than it does about his. Your analogizing this situation to Ted Haggard is particularly telling, if you ask me.
Finally, please extend me the courtesy of actually addressing me when you address me. I’m not one of the guys. I’m just a casual reader. I’ve never made any proclamations about being loving. I was just trying to clear up a few issues and so I’m unclear as to how that’s particularly “rich” or deserving of your mockery.
I am not sure how this went into a Calvinist thread except that Simon steered it there. Some poingnant humor not addressed to anyone’ doctrine but to some unchristian approach. Yes, we could all take a lesson.
Simon, you seem to have an obesession with me. I am sa free will guy so I do take issue with Calvinism and yes sometimes I may even get a little carried away. But this post has ome validity to it. No names, no doctrines, but an expose of unchristian behavior.
And hey, I attempt to be humorous sometimes. The one over at relevant Christian was hilarious. I have many Calvinist friends, many. Here and at home and we all kid each other from time to time. I say to them what you have read and do you know what many Calvinists say about Warren and Bell and others? They openly claim that the reason they are so off base even to being apostate is that they hold to free will, like me. A little harsh, don’t ya think?
Ken even claimed that free willers like me were the cause of the Reformation. So please do not pretend the highway goes one way unless you haven’t been on the internet long. I will tell you what Phil Johnson of Pyro told me, I can sense you do not like me, you are obliged not to read anything I write.
I think all ten points have some substance in them. Tonight I am going to post Ten Ways to Water Down the Gospel.
And Simon, those ten ways are going to deal with Arminians like me. You’ll love it!
Simon,
How long till we see comments from you on Old Truth similar to this one dealing with the attacks from monergists on, well, everyone who isn’t a monergist? Or I suppose to be more grounded in reality, how long till we see complaints from you that you submitted comments to Old Truth concerning these same types of complaints from watchdoggies and they never showed up?
Simon,
There is no N in the middle of Chris Rosebrough’ s last name. Secondly, perhaps you could go to Wiki and look up thread jacking.
BTW, where I come from we say, “There is one God and JoePa is His prophet!” Does that make us sound like Muslims or does that mean we have a sense of humor?
Roll On, BLUE!
Simon,
I think you miss something.
Rick Ianniello is a Calvinist. Rick Frueh and Rick I seem to get along fine… so I think the real issue Rick F takes it the tone of the Calvinist he is addressing. My tone with Rick I is much different as he is respectful to me as a person and i am to him…. meanwhile Jim Bublitz hates to discuss but loves to mock and play “link” games…
So, to say Rick here hates all Calvinists is way too strong some of us do not agree with Calvinists and often the way we respond is because how we were treated by other Calvinist… yes we should be able to rise above this yet it seems that even you cannot.
So please get off this accusatory mode and will someone in your camp of anti anyone who disagrees with John MacArthur get a real life and start addressing real issues?
Instead of broad sweeping generalizations of “wrongs” can we get direct quotes with context to work with?
Until then all the accusations of people like me whining, who respond and still want more definite proof that the accusations laid at us are true seems very childish and shallow and really a lot of wasted time for someone like me.
So, you can give me a break… I too see the similarity between fundamentalist hyper Calvinism and fundamentalist Islam… so Rick is not alone… But them the emerging church has been accused of helping Al Quida in a recent article… so in my best postmodern rebuttal… whatever man.
Blessings,
iggy
I told my “There is one true God and Calvin is His messenger” joke to one of my best Calvinist friends and he thought it was hilarious. He’s using it around church this Sunday. This post had nothing to do with Calvinism, you always know when I am dealing with that, this had to do with speech and behavior.
Homor can be used to make a point, but let it be sometimes aimed at ourselves. Jules at Everyday Mommy once had a post called “The disagreeable Calvinist” and most of the positive responses were from Calvinists. Watch for me to poke fun at the free will set, and I hope the Arminian crowd will love it.
Some of those ten points were right on, however, there are serious discernment ministries that do not match this post. I thank God for their input into the conversation.
Here’s one, “Two Calvinists went into a bar and the bartender said…” Never mind, it was funny though!
So…that would be number eight on Rick’s list, is what you’re saying.
Here’s a question: regardless of what a person has said or done elsewhere, if their words say something true, are those negated or made untrue by the other things the person has said or written?
Feels like a kind of self-GBA connection.
Rick,
I know you and I had a rough start, but we both noticed that there are some grave issues that are harming the Body of Christ coming out of the ODM’s
Since then in spite of our diferences…. just somehow… we became friends… LOL!
The interesting thing is I know we do not agree on certain things, yet I have found that we respect each other and out of respect can listen.
Do I agree with you? On this post I do entirely! On some other things maybe not… yet I do not expect you to agree with me entirely either… I mean what fun would that be?
The point is that there are some (myself included at times) that get so wound up we forget we are all just humans who are not perfect and need a Savior.
To me I appreciate both my Calvinist and Arminian friends. I can see their perspecitve, but I more appreciate their faith in the God that saves.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Julie!
“So…that would be number eight on Rick’s list, is what you’re saying.”
LOL! NOW THAT WAS FUNNY!
BLessed,
iggy
“i spent quite a bit of time researching rick/henry frueh”
And that’s all you came up with? Man you need work. Does it ever occur to anyone that Rick Warren, Rob Bell, John MacArthur, and men like that probably don’t serf the blog nation at all? My point is that there is some benefit produced by many, many blogs, but let’s not get carried away, we are far less important than we think.
There is some delusional power by seeing yourself in print and seeing people comment and also starting controversy. There is nothing more deflating that having no comments on your post. (Boy I unveiled ourflesh there). Come on guys, solid debate, even confrontational at times, but sometimes a little humor. And sometimes humor represents truth. Not making fun of someone personally, and not being sarcastic about their beliefs, but this post made some legitimate points about the approach of some, it just happened to be humorus.
There is one true God and Spurgeon is His messenger.
There is one true God and Warren is His messenger.
There is one true God and ___________ is His messenger.
Feel free to fill in the blank to suit your taste. As Data once said,”Humor, I love it!”
Simon I don’t know you and so I would like to take the opportunity to say “Welcome! Pull up a chair, stay for awhile, tell us your story”.
In contrasting Rick’s posts and them “that shall not be named” I’ve come to a few conclusions. The general tenor of Ricks “harsher” comments are that of challenge or humor. If you researched further-even on this blog alone-you would find that Rick very commonly will ask for forgiveness, seek clarity, or amicable agree to disagree. The sites that you have visited to find Ricks “harsher” comments don’t offer that same kind of candor. There is an adament deflecting of personal responsiblity that is very contradictory to the teachings of scripture.
Do we (the collective commenters) here take issue with CRN or OD or Pyro? Absolutely! More often than not we offer a counter balance to the staunch “Our way or the Highway to Hell” mantra of the aforementioned crowd. Does the line of civility get crossed here in doing that? Again Absolutely! But here in lies the difference; We have never, I repeat, never called into the question anyones salvation. Which is common practice “from them that shall not be named” Why? We don’t believe that it is our place to usurp God in his role as judge. Not even with Paula White, Micheal Vick, D. James Kennedy, Rob Bell, Erwin McManus, Brian McClaren, Rick Warren, or the myriad of others that have been “cast into the lake of fire” by the “watchmen”
I don’t know you so I’m inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt. But I would encourage you to engage in dialogue about the topics discussed here. I’m sincere in my offer to “get to know your story”. And once again welcome.
Rick…I personally thought the “Calvin is his prophet” thing was hilarious.
I don’t always agree with everything that is said on this site…but for the most part I can find common ground. The thing I like most about CRN.info is that ALL comments are welcome…it makes for interesting discussion.
I think the commonality comes from what Iggy eluded to…that most here are ok that there may be differing opinions…in other words…we agree to disagree!
Monergist – A man who only has one wife.
Chris….”them that shall not be named”…Priceless!
A semi-pelagian = Double minded.
I can’t help it, I am in one of those moods. Please feel free to lighten up and laugh a little.
“Why don’t Calvinists have sex standing up?” … I let someone else finish it. LOL
Free will – A non profit organization to raise bail money for George Will
Reformed – A former Calvinist who turned his life around after prison.
Ohh….this thread is going to all new levels….
Shallow Arminianism – A free willer sneezes and the stranger says “God bless you” and the Arminian immediately gives him assurance of salvation.
Martin Luther’s sytematic theology – I Have a Dream.
Charles Finney’s favorite chorus – Whistle While You Work
I think it’s time to put Rick on moderation.
It’s humor day, chris, I’ll return to my horrible, caustic, and hypocritical self tomorrow. But thanks for your input, shallow as usual! (ha)
sticks and stones….Ahh nevermind. LOL
I still love ya Rick. In a purely christian brother sorta way.
Remember, chris, Humor Day. It’s all good in the hood!
yeah I know…It’s really hard to type sarcasm (not the word, it’s just tough to have it come across)