I don’t know Tim. That was a very public conversation on CNN and as they said some “lines in the sand” were drawn and a VERY in your face comment was made about JM. So you’re thinkin’ this is not worthy of attention and comment? I don’t get your “whinning” accusation against Pyro. Pyro seems to be having a “conversation” over the issue which, by any account, was highly “incendiary”, cutting directly to the heart of just what is the Gospel. So in this instance I would say CRN.Info is registering more on the Whine-O-Meter than Pyro at this point.

Forget about the rhetoric et. al., just what does Pagitt and the rest believe? I have less and less patience for the nebulous gospel presentations.

What must I do to be saved?

Rick,

Here is some things from the emergent village site that shows what they do believe… I made in bold the “salvation” parts… Now it will not nor will any of us state: “Here are the four spiritual laws of salvation.” type of thing… but we do affirm Faith in Jesus as “THE WAY”… as noted below.

Hope that helps a bit. It seems open to that you can lead one to Christ as you are lead, and a emergent Calvinist can also do the same… Now we may not agree with some traditions… yet I will always agree with Paul, that if Christ be preached, I praise God!

1. Commitment to God in the Way of Jesus:
We are committed to doing justice, loving kindness, and walking humbly with God. In the words of Jesus, we seek to live by the Great Commandment: loving God and loving our neighbors – including those who might be considered “the least of these” or enemies. We understand the gospel to be centered in Jesus and his message of the Kingdom of God, a message offering reconciliation with God, humanity, creation, and self.

We are committed to a “generous orthodoxy” in faith and practice – affirming the historic Christian faith and the biblical injunction to love one another even when we disagree. We embrace many historic spiritual practices, including prayer, meditation, contemplation, study, solitude, silence, service, and fellowship, believing that healthy theology cannot be separated from healthy spirituality.

PRACTICES:
As Christ-centered people, to understand the gospel in terms of Jesus’ radical, profound, and expansive message of the kingdom of God.

As people seeking to be formed spiritually in the way of Christ, to learn historic Christian spiritual practices (disciplines), and to use them for the development of character, integrity, and virtue which flow from true communion with God.

As participants in the historic Christian faith, to be humble learners, to stimulate learning in others, and to give priority to love over knowledge, while still valuing knowledge.
As lovers of God and God’s truth, to seek wisdom and understanding, which are the true goal of theology, and to engage in respectful, thoughtful, sacred conversation about God, world, and church.

2. Commitment to the Church in all its Forms:
We are committed to honor and serve the church in all its forms – Orthodox, Roman Catholic, Protestant, Pentecostal, Anabaptist. We practice “deep ecclesiology” – rather than favoring some forms of the church and critiquing or rejecting others, we see that every form of the church has both weaknesses and strengths, both liabilities and potential.

We believe the rampant injustice and sin in our world requires the sincere, collaborative, and whole-hearted response of all Christians in all denominations, from the most historic and hierarchical, through the mid-range of local and congregational churches, to the most spontaneous and informal expressions. We affirm both the value of strengthening, renewing, and transitioning existing churches and organizations, and the need for planting, resourcing, and coaching new ones of many kinds.

We seek to be irenic and inclusive of all our Christian sisters and brothers, rather than elitist and critical. We own the many failures of the church as our failures, which humbles us and calls us to repentance, and we also celebrate the many heroes and virtues of the church, which inspires us and gives us hope.

PRACTICES:
To be actively and positively involved in a local congregation, while maintaining open definitions of “church” and “congregation.” We work in and with churches, seeking to live out authentic Christian faith in authentic Christian community.
To seek peace among followers of Christ, and to offer critique only prayerfully and when necessary, with grace, and without judgment, avoiding rash statements, and repenting when harsh statements are made. To speak positively of fellow Christians whenever possible, especially those with whom we may disagree.
To build sincere friendship with Christians from other traditions.

3. Commitment to God’s World:
We practice our faith missionally – that is, we do not isolate ourselves from this world, but rather, we follow Christ into the world.

We seek to fulfill the mission of God in our generations, and then to pass the baton faithfully to the next generations as well.

We believe the church exists for the benefit and blessing of the world at large; we seek therefore not to be blessed to the exclusion of everyone else, but rather for the benefit of everyone else.

We see the earth and all it contains as God’s beloved creation, and so we join God in seeking its good, its healing, and its blessing.

PRACTICES:
To build relationships with neighbors and to seek the good of our neighborhoods and cities.
To seek reconciliation with enemies and make peace.
To encourage and cherish younger people and to honor and learn from older people.
To honor creation and to cherish and heal it.
To build friendships across gender, racial, ethnic, economic and other boundaries.
To be involved at all times in at least one issue or cause of peace and justice.

4. Commitment to One Another
In order to strengthen our shared faith and resolve, and in order to encourage and learn from one another in our diversity through respectful, sacred conversation, we value time and interaction with other friends who share this rule and its practices.

We identify ourselves as members of this growing, global, generative, and non-exclusive friendship.

We welcome others into this friendship as well.

We bring whatever resources we can to enrich this shared faith and resolve.

PRACTICES:
To make an annual pilgrimage to an Emergent Village gathering; to give one another the gift of our presence at annual gatherings whenever possible.
To publicly self-identify with Emergent Village where appropriate and to represent Emergent Village well whenever we can; to exemplify the best of what Emergent Village strives to be and do.
To invite others to participate and welcome new participants.
To seek to be positive and constructive in caring for the Emergent Village friendship. To find some specific ways we can help the circle of friends in Emergent Village.
To stay reconciled to one another. To give one another the gift of commitment not to give up on, betray, or reject one another, but instead, to encourage, honor, and care for one another.
To stay informed about emergent locally and globally via the website and email updates.
ACTION
We live out the four values of our rule through four lines of action:

We explore and develop ideas, theology, practices, and connections … through conversations, conferences, think-tanks, gatherings, retreats, publications, learning cohorts, online resources, and other means.
We resource individuals, leaders, and organizations – funding their imagination, stimulating their thinking, providing examples, events, literature and other resources to assist them in their lives and mission.
We communicate our calling, vision, learning, and activities to the growing Emergent Village community, and to other interested people around the world.
We provide ways for people to belong, identify with, and participate in this community, conversation, and mission at varying levels. We encourage the development of generative

Pagitt’s comments=overstatement, rude, uncharitable

On another note…
Pyro’s post mentioned the source is an email.
Was the email intended to be private?
Doesn’t excuse the comment, but it also smacks of ’scorched earth, Karl rove style theological debate’….IF it was a leaked email.

Any clarity there? anyone know?

Tim and Iggy,

Thanks for the history on “whining”. Makes more sense in context now.

“Pagitt’s comments=overstatement, rude, uncharitable”

So what difference is there between him and the ones we criticize?

Houston John,

That Emergent Manefesto does NOT increase my comfort level with Emergents, just the opposite. I’m OK/You’re OK. But I guess that goes to the heart of the argument. Hey, at least I’m willing to listen.

Now, take this as it is meant and not as a meanie remark that is just a put down…

Since when did Christianity become about YOU and YOUR COMFORT? I ask the same about myself everyday… BTW

I see that it is often that one takes emergent in the same vein as the so called “liberal” eucemenical movement that was more about compromising truth for unity. Yet, I do not see that sort of compromise with emergent…

Go to emergent village and download scot McKnight’s “the whole gospel” and then tell me where he is wrong… then download the 3 mp3’s with some of the greatest philosophers alive today discussing philosophies relationship with christianity and then tell me that you did not get something good out of that…

Now there is some fluff and some stuff that makes me uncomfortable, yet, I cannot sit through an entire sermon by some of the backers of John MacArthur or even John without wincing at someway they teach grace then take it away… or they quote JM more than scirpture… now I have also heard a couple of good JM sermons in my day… but really do not remember them….

There is a lot offered there. Yet, I do not judge someones teaching by my own comfort… rather I run it past scirpture.

Again, I find things that stretch me… then make me think… Like can we see Christ in an unbeliever? Some say no… yet people are told they gave a drink of water to someone who thirsts and it was done unto Jesus… so maybe we can.

Be Blessed,
iggy

Has anyone actually LISTENED to Driscoll’s message?

Rick,
I’ve tried four times and all I get is, “Hi I’m So and So…”

Rick,

I finally found it on iTunes.

1) MacLaren – nothing really surprised me in what Driscoll said

2) Padgitt – I don’t know him that well, and I think that a) Driscoll makes the right ’split’ between homosexual temptation and homosexual sin in his question; b) Padgitt’s answer was incorrect. Also, I missed the logic in the idolatry part, and I think I’d want to ask Padgitt some serious follow-up questions, though.

3) Bell –
1) MacLaren preached at Mars Hill one Sunday last summer (I have the file). There was nothing disagreeable in the sermon. Not someone I would have had preach at my church, but who knows what the arrangement/restrictions were. We sometimes have guest ministers preach on Sunday morning, and their subject and sermon are always pre-approved by the eldership.

2) Bell does frequently go to rabbinical sources – particularly for contextual help (supporting, not primary usage), and primarily pre-Christian/first-century contemporary sources. Driscoll has a particular ‘bone to pick’ with modern Judiasm and a local (Seattle) rabbi that he has interviewed on multiple occasions. Bell does not argue for a return to Judiasm or ritual practice. I disagree with Driscoll’s casting of Bell’s usage of first-century context.

3) Trajectory hermeneutic – this follows William Webb’s Slaves, Women and Homosexual hermeneutic, which I do not completely agree with (I think it misses some nuances in Ephesus), but (contrary to Driscoll’s summary) shows that homosexuality is not a “cultural” issue (like braiding of hair), and is not on a ‘trajectory’. This is the opposite of what Driscoll portrays.

4) The Virgin Birth and Velvet Elvis. On the same page as the example Bell uses, he reaffirms his belief in the VB. Personally, I wish he would have used a different example (maybe even something as incendiary as literal vs. figurative 6-day creation) to make his point. I disagree with Driscoll’s point on “making scripture lie about Jesus” – Bell was saying that sometimes we interpret scriptures a specific way, based on English paraphrase, and that perhaps our interpretation is not always correct.

5) Ken Wilbur’s “A Brief History of Everything” – I’m not familiar with the book

I think I also heard that “Johnny Mac” refers to Steve Camp as “Campy”…so it’s a mutual disrespect.

“I think I also heard that “Johnny Mac” refers to Steve Camp as “Campy”…so it’s a mutual disrespect.”

No, I didn’t mean disrespect, I just meant that everybody should lighten up. Referring to either of them as “Johnny Mac” or “Campy” is a non-issue.

Robbymac: My comment was intended as “tongue-in-cheek.” If I get a chance next year when I’m at the Shepherds’ Conference, I’ll ask JM what he prefers to be called. (Maybe I’ll get my chance when I’m getting him to autograph a MacArthur Study Bible for Iggy…don’t say anything-it’s a surprise!)

I’ll give you an “Amen” on that “lighten up.” Sometimes it gets WAY too deep around here.

Iggy: “Yet, you confirmed to me that your faith seems to be all about “you, you, you” while mine is all about Jesus Christ.”

??????

“September 23, 1986″ was a joke which I thought you would really appreciate. I thought it was pretty funny (but then again I think Mr. Bean and “Dude, Where’s My Car” are hysterical). My apologies, sincerely, and believe me if it was “all about me” or “comfort” I would certainly not have left dear friends and “positions” in two churches over a compromised gospel as I have been forced to do over the past 5 years.

I don’t think it is fair to judge me by one reference to a “comfort level” which can mean different things in different contexts. For example, if comfort level = complacency, then it’s a bad thing. But if I am refering to my comfort level in regards to sin or biblical error, this means something entirely different.

On a more serious note I think your undertanding of the life of Christ is highly admirable and right on and I could not agree more. I was just thinking on this subject myself just the other day in my musings on our Calvinist’s friends blogs who do appear to me to equate piety with adherance to Calvinism. I can also tell from your reaction and response that you have been seriously hurt in the past by these people and for that I am truly sorry.