Seems our usual watchdoggies like what Mark Driscoll had to say.
Of course what they don’t post is that Driscoll praised Dan Kimball, and Donald Miller as orthodox.
And what they failed to mention was that Driscoll blamed people like the watchdoggies for the decline of churches in the US due to their obtuseness in reaching an entire generation.
While we’re on the subject let me just say that the attitude of the watchdoggies is sin (and this is much bigger than just the watchdoggies, they’re just the leftover dregs of a generation that abandoned a whole lot of people to hell because they turned their particular church’s culture into an idol). While they whine and complain about individuals distorting the gospel, they’ve been busy burying it in the attitudes and cultures of yesteryear. I used to think that this was essentially a matter of Christian freedom that watchdoggies were pushing as required. I’ve revised that thought. There is no freedom in Christ to hide the gospel, not even if, for whatever reason, you want to preserve the non-Biblical aspects of the church your grandparents took you to when you grew up. The attitudes of the watchdoggies that were perpetuated by Christian leaders of the last generation that have resulted in the church hiding the gospel from our culture is every bit as much a deliberate lifestyle of sin as the guy who was sexing up his (hopefully step) mother in 1 Corinthians 5.
I don’t know why picking and choosing which part of Driscoll’s message they agree with would surprise me. They already do it with scripture. The only difference is that when they did it with scripture they lost an entire generation because of style.
70 Comments(+Add)
You’re so funny, Mr. Reed !!! Now quit yer foot stompin’ !!! lol
Now quit yer foot stompin’
If both feet are off the floor, that’s DANCIN’ and we’re agin dancin’!
viewing the church as an idol I think is a very rich topic for discussion, at what point is it being faithful to God and at what point is it being faithful to some human standard on either end of the board?
I’ve been saying it a lot latley that I think the healthiest thing for the church right now would be to stop holding on to things that make us feel churchy but are ultimatley inneffectual, or just a neutral thing that takes up a lot of time and money.
I think this is why the trend in churches I am enjoying most is congregations without their own building, whether it’s at a movie theater, highschool or in another congregations church building, because I find so much of this churchy stuff gets tied up with the builing itself and the feel of it, and a lot of the decisions become about practical ministry and not pomp and show.
Kevin I,
Sadly, there’s all kinds of examples of the trappings of church that get turned into idols. You might be right that not having a building would help, but there’s no end of ideas, concepts, people and things that people can turn into idols.
Being minimalistic when it comes to buildings would be one heck of a start!
Joe,
You need to get on the podcast with that conversation.
Shocking you would start there.
Sometimes Christians in the past had to meet for church in basements, caves, out in the woods, meeting in secret wherever they can. If the spirit of the Lord is with them, a Bible is all they need.
Tim Bell,
Make sure there is no food in your mouth and read the next sentence. You and I are on the same page. Down with the fancy buildings! Lose the baptismals! Quit spending money on windows and other crap. What did Jesus say, “You lack one thing: Sell all you have and buy a cool building!”
Having been to Mars Hill G.R. you guys really are minimilast. And I love it!
Joe BTW I feel I made have offended you with my comment on your blog. If I did I’m sorry it certainly wasn’t my intent.
Well; unless of course they were early church Christians and they didn’t have the bible.
No Dude, not at all. I’m not even sure what you’re talking about. Email me, if you want.
chris, contact me and I will give you real ways to offend Joe, you are a minor leaguer! And his thing about “I don’t know what you’re talking about” is very true and permeates every area of his life.
If a church has a building with stained glass windows, that’s fine. If a church meets in a converted warehouse or a school gym, that’s fine too. I see nothing to tear down what is already established for a church. Some people prefer traditional setting, others prefer modern style. Ambiance, whether traditional, contemporary, or ‘relevant’, is not what converts people, it is the message of the cross and hearing the Gospel preached.
Joe,
Next thing ya know, you’ll be suggesting that we meet in abandoned malls or something like that…
Errr…what about the Christians in the past who couldn’t read the Bible? Or the Christians right now in Africa and China who don’t have a Bible?
We need to stop worshipping a physical book.
“We need to stop worshipping a physical book.”
I agree, but there are many who understand that in many different ways. You are a brave man, Matt!
I’m not talking about being relevant. I’m talking about churches spending thousands upon thousands of dollars to put in some dumb stained glass window. I’m not for spending money to tear something down, but I am 100% against spending more than is absolutely necessary to provide a safe environment.
Joe,
So I guess you’re saying the giant mural of Rick Warren we’ve been planning to put up might not be the best purchase.
Well I guess it’s back to plan B – Rob Bell communion cups!
Actually I heard that Mars Hill G.R. was erecting a statue of Rob Bell.
First of All, Rob’s communion cups are sold out, but I happen to have some excellent replica’s that I would be willing to sell you for a reasonable price. Secondly, Rick Warren is so last decade! You need a mural of a literal 6 day creation.
Furthermore I heard that in 400 years the Velvet Elvis Cathechism is going to replace Heidelberg as the way to fully understand scripture.
The ironic thing is that it’s actually made of bricks.
I wouldn’t necassarily advocate putting all the time and money into tearing down buildings either, but that newer congregations kind of leapfrog over that trapping, and that those who do have buildings keep the right perspective about it.
I think my musings on buildings latley have been from watching a nearby church who has a real great ministry become known for huge divisive arguments about build expansions, repairs and usages, and their priorities tilting towards grand (largley uneeded) building projects over actual ministry.
And you are all right a building isn’t the only church idol we have, there are these ideas too.
I also think that these church idols go well deeper then just “sacred cows”, working in churches I’ve seen tons of sacred cows and they can usually be adressed, discussed and dissected at length over time with careful considerations of those that cling to them. Usually someone clinging to a sacred cow can be handled with all gentleness and paitence, but adressing someone holding onto a church idol gets real ugly real fast.
I know what you mean about spending lots of money on stained glass windows. I also balk at the thousands of dollars spent on state-of-the-art computer/video/stage equipment at my soon-to-be-former church and others that could be spent on evangelism. One former church spent millions (yes, millions) of dollars to add an addition and completely redo the facade of the older part in mirrored glass. The lobby was completely redone to resemble a soda-fountain diner. What a waste!
How about all the millionaire preachers including MacArthur, Bell, MacLaren, Sproul, Warren, et. al.. How about being “minimalistic” in that? Some of the Bible still goes unbelieved.
Rick,
Do a little research. You’ll see that Rob gives tons of money away. Lives in a normal house in a normal–poor section of Grand Rapids, so maybe you should be more careful about making statements without doing some research?
Rick,
Didn’t you get the memo? Wealth is a sure sign of God’s favor.
This being “relevant” issue goes to the heart of the whole Church Growth Movement and Seeker Friendly movement (and BTW I didn’t think Emergents were on the same page as Saddleback and Willowcreek, am I wrong here?) Anyhoo, I guess I would just have to go round again on the style issue because I have great problems with modeling a WORSHIP service on what’s currently hip in the WORLD as a worship service is by definition between believers and their God. It’s a family affair where there are guests present. Evangelism should mainly take place in the world, not in a worship service which is not (or should not be) designed for them. The first consideration in designing a WORSHIP service should be God’s sensibilities and not the comfort level of an unsaved visitor (and no, I am not referring to music styles or type of seats).
Houston John…
For me the difference is this…
1. Seeker/purpose driven see having the best worship band, a great topical sermon that is “relevant” to marriage/work/personal growth/ and so on… which for a time I thought that all well and good except I began to see a pale and cheap imitation of “secular” culture.
2. The emerging relevance is looking at culture not as secular of sacred.. (which take a bit to wrap one’s mind around) but looking at culture and being aware that more people get their theology from TV or movies or college courses that look at it as “religion” or “of the world religions”. It addressing that many if not most people today do not have a Judea/Christian back ground… It is recognizing that one can win your neighbor over by being a good neighbor which could mean mowing their lawn. It could be that when we do something that is right we DO NOT parade it around in front of others. It may mean that we place into action what we “believe”.
It is that the Gospel is alive and relevant and that we are to find any way we can to show that it is alive in us. emerging is not about “candles, cool music, sofa’s, Yoga, incense,” or whatever else that some associate with it. Usually we see those as “posers” if their actions do not match their profession of faith. In that we seek authenticity.
Be Blessed,
iggy
See, I told you I knew how to offend Joe. All the men I mentioned give much away, but in light of the widow’s mite I still believe these men are very wealthy in spite of the money they give away. By the way, how do you know Bell gives away a lot (left hand/right hand)?
So minimilistic in buildings but in salaries/speaking fees/book royalties – expansive. Let us be real, the Luther/Wesley era is over and the “lay not up for yourselves” incarnate musing was a metaphoric Hebrewism. And thousands of missionaries have no savings while we Americans, preachers included, are well taken care of both now and when we “retire”.
Gutenburg – the goose that layed the golden egg!
Rick: Could you please provide documentation for the following statement: How about all the millionaire preachers including MacArthur, Bell, MacLaren, Sproul, Warren, et. al..
Which one? I assume you have no problem with Warren, MacArthur, and MacLaren. So are you asking about Bell and Sproul?
I am assuming this based upon their church salaries, book royalties, and speaking fees. Maybe they give it away, if so, I stand corrected. I believe they are all wealthy having much in the bank and in investments. I could be wrong, am I?
Keith – you are asking about MacArthur, right?
Ok, Rick do you know what Rob does with is speaking fees? Do you know what his salary is? I do on both accounts so don’t present a fallacious argument by making an accusation and then saying, “Well you can’t defend him b/c your right hand shouldn’t know what your left hand is doing.” You have no proof for your assertions other than they are your opinion. In that regard you are no better than Ken
What is his salary and what are is speaking fees and what does he do with them. I’m open to be informed. As I said, I’m assuming, maybe I’m wrong but I happen to live in America.
“In that regard you are no better than Ken”
In many things I am no better than Adam either. Guilty.
Do your own research.
How about I put this way. Rick Freuh spends a lot of time on the internet, and he’s from Florida. Therefore he must be looking at porn all the time and be a lazy retiree. Of course, I don’t know any of this for a fact but I’m just assuming. I may be wrong.
Wow. I said I thought Bell and the rest were wealthy and it deteriorates into that? I didn’t accuse him of stealing, and I’m assuming by your comments you had no issue with my assertion about MacArthur. Bell is wealthy, not perfect.
About your personal assertion about my sin, do some research. I guess I will have to advise my daughter who READS THIS BLOG to overlook you very careless comparison.
Not an assertion, and assumption. Probably a very wrong one. No more wrong than yours
I actually don’t see a problem with big buildings. It is what you do with and in the buildings that is important. That coming from a guy who works at a church with no property owned.
Tim,
I am interested as to why you are leaving your church. A remodel seems to be a very superficial reason. Especially after you said a bible is all you need for evangelism. Does the church not have bibles?
To be clear (someday I’ll have to write a post about my feelings on this) I am not saying big buildings are bad. I’m saying we need to be minimalistic in our approach to facilitating those buildings (whether big or small). All sizes can be used for good and all sizes can used for bad.
For the curious, Joe is wrong, and I’m right.
That’s a general rule of thumb, by the way.
Henry,
Rob walks or rides his bike most places he goes. They have one old car in there family and that is all. Does that sound like a millionaire to you?
I have removed his name from the list.
Erica,
I’m surprised you didn’t have the whole thing in common with Timmy.
Rick, you are a scholar and a gentleman, with questionable college football tastes.
Rick,
Not to belabor a point here but the “widow’s mite” is in Scripture yes, but so are rich people that Jesus never said anything to about it being wrong. Don’t make money your treasure, yes, Take care of the orphans and widows and the poor, yes. Don’t be rich, no.
Joe, Rick: Be grace givers. And make good choices.
nothing but love and grace here
How’s everybody doing?
I miss you guys and julie.
Right now, I am reading a book on the socio-political make-up of the Roman empire (particularly Palestine) during the first century, and when we try to impose our context into that context, we may be missing a bit.
1) The temple taxation was huge, sharing its taxation arm with the Romans – a small army of tax collectors who would be present wherever harvests, fish, etc. were produced to make sure that everything that should be collected was taken. Estimated percentage was 20% + whatever the tax collector wanted for himself
2) The Roman taxation was somewhere between 30-40%.
3) People were having to borrow against the next year’s harvest/wages to pay this year’s taxes, eventually having to sell their land to stay afloat.
4) To avoid having to give the land back after the seventh year, the Sadducees ruled that this rule need no longer be enforced resulting in permanent loss of land to a few wealthy land-owners – who were often either beholden to the Sadducees or the Romans (or both).
5) The resulting society was thus transformed into a huge bulk of tenant farmers with a few wealthy families in the rural areas, with a slightly better situation in the major cities.
When Jesus came upon the scene, most of the ‘rich’ were where they were out of pure exploitation of the poor…
As for Bell and the others, an abundance of earthly riches do not automatically translate to ’selling out’.
My understanding of Bell (and you can correct me if I’m wrong, Joe) is that he takes a rather modest salary for his pastoral staff position and most (if not all) proceeds from tours, books, etc. go toward specific missions (such as WaterAid and the current micro-finance project in Berundi).
Similarly, when Rich Mullins was alive, he had a board which paid him a salary based on the average man’s wage in America. The rest of his royalties were held in trust to be distributed to various charities chosen by Rich…
So is it wrong then for a preacher/christian author/christian businessman/christian to be wealthy? Was Solomon wrong? It isn’t money that is evil–it’s the love of money. I know some very wealthy Christians. And I know what they do with their money. They live on less (as a % of income) than i do. give away more in total $ and % of income as I do. who is the better witness then?
“They live on less (as a % of income) than i do. give away more in total $ and % of income as I do. who is the better witness then? ”
Which is exactly what Jesus taught about as he saw the widow. And Nobody knows what I give, how do people actually know the % of what others give? It is somewhat conspicuous that the % that wealthy people give seems to be sometimes more public than the poor person.
Spear, trot those bases because that wan an excellent comment
I often pick the raisins out of raisin cookies. It makes the cookie fall apart, to be sure, but who wants to deal with those raisins? I just want the parts I like.
Of course, at that point, it isn’t really a raisin cookie. It’s just a crumbling mess.
(That’s all for cooking metaphors today.)
Julie
I love bacon, lettuce and tomato… ya know the sandwich… My wife loves just the bacon and lettuce…yet she still orders the BLT… I tell her she is wrong… yet she insists she can order her sandwich how she wants… I then say… I am the MAN! and ask her to order the tomatoes on the side… which I do not add to my sandwich, but after eating my sandwich put lots of salt on the slices… and then eat them…
Now I still think my wife is wrong and she should admit she only wants a BL and no tomato and not a BLT without a tomato… but what the heck I get extra tomatoes for free… unless I pay.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Rick: I think you slobbered a bib full with your original post!
“Spear” and Joe Martino make some excellent points re: checking out the facts. You made some very strong assumptions there.
And yes, I was asking about MacArthur in particular, but I thought your lumping all of those men–whether I agree with their ministries or not–was a little bold, considering as you admitted later…you really don’t know. I’ve been to MacArthur’s church on multiple occasions and it’s (the building) pretty plain in my opinion. It’s taken care of, etc. but basically it’s a concrete block building.
It’s kinda funny to look back through the thread and see who people defended (out of Rick’s list). I read a lot into that.
Do some research on R. G. LeTourneau. By the time he died, he was giving away 90 percent of his income and living on 10.
It is somewhat conspicuous that the % that wealthy people give seems to be sometimes more public than the poor person. Maybe it’s because they feel they must defend themselves from anwarranted accusations in that area.
Personally, people complaining about what pastors make and what they do with their money is kind of pet peeve of mine. I’m a PK, so I’ve seen the people who seem to want to keep pastors “poor and humble”. Really, I think pastors of all stripes pretty much deserve more than they make, unless we’re talking about the really extravagant prosperity preachers.
I think the normal pastor’s family is under a lot of stress, even if they’re at a small church. Once a church grows to megachurch proportions, I can imagine things becoming very crazy. I think some tend to romanticize a pastor’s job, and imagine it being somewhat “easy” work. The truth is, that these men need our prayers and whatever we can do to help them. Also, I find this is the area where more people allow themselves to have a double standard in than probably anything else.
Even if I never serve in a “official” ministry position, I always vowed I would not be “that guy” – the one who makes the pastor’s life harder, who thinks it his position to critique everything the pastor does. One or two of “those guys” is almost enough to drive any pastor out of the ministry.
Phil, you know people think that way because preachers only work one day a week!
Yes, Keith, although I of course was not in possession of anyone’s tax returns or savings accounts, I still would not be surprised that my assertion was true that many large church preachers were wealthy. I should not have not listed names for effect, but as you astutely noted the defending comments were appropriately within the definition of the post title, “Picking and Choosing”.
Allow me to repent and rephrase:
I believe many large church pastors and Christian authors and Christian singers are wealthier than the average American and surely wealthier than former preachers. Whether that is Biblical or not is according to one’s interpretation, but as a disclaimer I have no personal knowledge of anyone’s finances.
A santitized version that may digest somewhat easier.
I haven’t read through all these posts but it is well known that Rick Warren gives much of his money away.
Keith,
I wouldn’t read too much into that, though. Myself, for instance, I just chose one named and one unnamed example (Bell and Mullins) because those are the only two I have (or at least think I have) data for.
I wouldn’t know MacArthur, MacLaren, Sproul, or Warren’s churches if I passed them on the street sans signage. Having been to Mars Hill (and it’s not easy to find, since they didn’t use any signage I could see), which meets in a once-deserted mall and knowing some folks there, I’m pretty sure that there are no millionaires on staff. Having known Rich Mullins personally, along with members of his missions board, I know that he was purposely not a millionaire (and that, better than anyone I’ve heard of, his financial ’system’ did a great job of keeping even him from knowing what the right hand was doing).
The other guys? I have no data, so I can’t say one way or another…
Chris L: I’ve heard that about Mullins. I met him once when he came to the church I was attending at the time. A very humble fella.
Actually, my thought was–and this is nothing personal, just my assessment of the tone around here sometimes–there are those that would love to find out that MacArthur in particular makes a certain amount of money, just so they can have one more thing to dislike about him. Unlike Rick (sorry ’bout that Rick), I won’t mention names.
I don’t know what Rick Warren makes, but knowing he’s basically down the street from JM, I wouldn’t be shocked to find out he makes six figures, but for the area he’s living in, it’s not that outrageous.
If God ever blessed me to that point, I’d love to be able to give large sums of money away to missionaries, ministries, etc. My wife and I support a missionary in India–I’d love to be able to help her more. I’m amazed what they can do with a dollar over there.
By the way, how do you know Bell gives away a lot (left hand/right hand)?
So minimilistic in buildings but in salaries/speaking fees/book royalties – expansive.
Rick… I find it incredibly ironic that you are asking Joe how he knows Bell gives away a lot while you make an unsubstantiated claim about the “millionaire” pastors.
And you have done a terrible job trying to backtrack from it.
If you want to make such an assertion that Johnny Mac, Sproul, McLaren, Bell, Warren, etc are millionaires, prove it.
And by the way… you seem to be implying that it is “wrong” to have wealth. I would argue that it is not wrong to have wealth, but it is wrong to not use one’s wealthy for the furthering of the Kingdom.
Personally, I am surprised that Rich Mullins ever made enough money to even need such a board. I guess he could have made some decent money in royalties and such.
I think, for the most part, that most people in the Christian music industry do not make a whole lot of money. I’ve talked to some different artists, and for the most part, they’re lucky if they make a near average salary. Of course, there are the few like Michael W. Smith and Steven Curtis Chapman, but for the most part it’s hard to make money in the industry.
Personally, I am surprised that Rich Mullins ever made enough money to even need such a board. I guess he could have made some decent money in royalties and such.
Rich Mullins was one of the most popular Christian music artists in the 80s and 90s. I am sure he made some very good money.
I also appreciated the story of Mullins which I wasn’t aware of. When I think of the widow who gives 20% of her income to the kingdom work but will never get notoriety, I then have a problem with men like Warren stating on Larry King that he gives 90% of his income to God’s work. It flies in the face of what Jesus taught.
He gives a lot, but he makes a lot(I’m assuming), but Biblically the sacrifice (widow) is what is measured by God and the confidentiality (left hand/right hand) should be observed. It is the Biblical principle not the specific men.
Dave – a review of my comments will reveal I used the word repent, so I’m not sure what you are looking for in my “back tracking”.
Dave,
I wasn’t meaning to imply Rich Mullins wasn’t popular or anything. I loved his music, too. I just think sometimes Christians overestimate the amount that Christian artists make. I would doubt that any of Mullins’ albums sold more than 50,000 copies. That would be considered strong sales in the Christian market, but poor in the general. If he made good money, it would have to have been more by concerts and other things, I suspect.
Nathan, sorry for the delay in answering your question. My church was going away from their Presbyterian roots toward charismatic. During the past several years, up until my mother’s death in late December, I haven’t attended maybe three or four times and each time it was worse. I didn’t attend much because I was taking care of my mother at my place. As my mourning lifted during the summer, I started to attend a couple times a month. They’ve gone emergent, talking about building God’s Kingdom here on earth and even don’t say “Christian” much but “follower of Jesus Christ”. The sermons are very shallow and they are just not Reformed anymore. In membership class, they say they follow the Westminster Confession of Faith but in the 16 years I’ve been a member, WCF has never been taught in a regular SS class. I heard it mentioned once in a sermon- years ago. I guess they don’t even mention it in membership class anymore. And the pastor is an ambitious fellow, which I don’t like in a pastor. I guess I’ll have to picket the church all by my lonesome until they kick me out of the church.