Again CRN proves with this post that it will join hands with anyone and everyone when it comes to bashing other believers. Many of us have had issues with Rev. Graham’s associations with Presidents, but the man who wrote this caustic book, Cecil Bothwell, is a liberal environmentalist who by all indications is not a believer. He widely criticized James Watt’s appointment as Secretary of the Interior because Watt believed Jesus would return one day. Absurd, he laments.
So the moral to the story is when you have a disagreement with a brother, provide a welcome forum for the unbeliever to make money on his book that bashes your brother in Christ, unless you believe Billy Graham is not in Christ, and these days many of the magisterial counsel of blogdom might have even stooped to that level. What fellowship does light have with darkness only applies when it suits your taste.
********UPCOMING********
Hugh Hefner is writing a book criticizing the emergent church, watch for the reviews on CRN, it promises to be an eye opener!
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
74 Comments(+Add)
I only read the articles! Honest!
iggy
Rick,
Actually, Billy Graham was called a heretic many years before this story was broke… by other Christians who did not need to use an outside source like an unbeliever.
John MacArthur has been after Billy Graham for some time…
http://www.biblebb.com/files/tonyqa/tc00-105.htm
So it only looks like CRN has become a lap-poodle for John MacArthur… though some are Lutherans that deny their own beliefs for the sake of “unity” to attack others who believe in worse things like sitting in a sofa instead of a pew or singing more “modern” worship songs instead of hymns… an so on.
This really does not surprise me the least.
CRN needs someone big to associate with to give is some credibility… and it seems that MacArthur is their choice… which really gives them less credibility from my point of view. I mean any ship n the storm if you can’t build credibility on your own efforts.
Be Blessed,
iggy
I do not have a problem with presenting differences with Billy Graham, I have my own and I was saved listening to him on TV. My point here is that the author is not even a brother, where is that Biblical?
It is not…
I have men that God used throughout my life that I do not agree with their theology. Yet, from each I have been taught something by God through them… even the bad ones.
I have tried to sit through a Billy Graham sermon.. have yet to make it all the way through… ADD on my part. Yet, to state he is not saved or a brother… and used a person who is not even saved to prove you point does make one point.
That discernment has little to do with CRN, this “truth war” or much else that CRN and others claim.. it seems more and more about following a man… John MacArthur. If you tow his line of belief you are “saved” if not you are not saved…
So now salvation hinges on John MacArthur’s teaching and not on the True Gospel of Jesus Christ, let alone the Cross, Blood, Death and Resurrection of Jesus… it is about one man’s view of truth versus everyone that does not agree with him.
Be blessed,
iggy
The odd thing is that yesterday the “editor” was complaining about N.T. Wright speaking out against the Iraq war. So I don’t know what the correct position is according to CRN.
“So I don’t know what the correct position is according to CRN. ”
Whatever cuts and pastes that day.
Billy Graham is an evanglelist. His message is imple yet deep, but he is not a teacher. He has had some unfortunate relationships, and lately he has given some unbiblical opinions about people being saved who never heard the gospel.
Having said that, I would never even discuss him with any unbeliever much less post his book. That is a compromise as great as the one they accuse.
Pardon me, but where does it say that the person who posted this is in agreement with the book. It is categorized as “general news” and there is no editorial comment. (no I did not post this) It is simply general news.
I find abuse of spin here to be “unloving”.
“Pardon me, but where does it say that the person who posted this is in agreement with the book.”
Come on, Chris P., you have sometimes defended them with a legitimate argument, this is not one of them. And if you must play that game, I did not say the “editor” agreed with the book. A reading of my post states that they provided a forum for this guy.
By the way, if they disagreed with the book YOU WOULD HAVE KNOWN IT VERY QUICKLY! Just a liitle observation, I hope your tongue was in your cheek as you commented.
Chris P.
I would wager a bet they are… yet I do not like to gamble…
Can you prove they do not… I have proved it is lock and step with MacArthur… so… if you disagree, post about it instead of trying to defend an article that sort of just leaves stuff in the air and looks like it is promoting a book against “Christians” and the target is “warmonger” Billy Graham…
Oh, it is “general News” as it is so general that one cannot tell how they stand on it… but it is pretty clear.
Let’s see MacArthur states here what he thinks of Billy…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mC2WPR7q4pU
So, let’’s be honest Chris… It is another attack backed from the JM department. Just a thought that if you are against this you need take it up with Ken and other at CRN.
Be Blessed,
iggy
I’m guessing it’s not a Yoga position, at any rate.
OK to be fair…
I suppose they can have opposing view on the war (in Iraq)… but not the “truth” war…
I cannot discredit them to have opposing views on that. There are also opposing views here on that topic and also theology.
Yet, the difference is that the “main thing” is the “main thing” here. Unity in Christ and charity on non essentials to salvation.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Sometimes what needs to be said or exposed isn’t coming from a Christian source, be it a reporter, publishing house, pastor, layman, or whomever. Usually it’s a secular media that exposes adulterous pastors and greedy, crooked tele-evangelists. I guess we should dismiss those Benny Hinn exposes. We are not always in agreement with everything a secular source would believe or not believe in but many times God uses whatever means to expose wrong-doing. Billy Graham should be exposed for the fraud he is, especially with his freemasonry evil he is part of.
And yet he preaches a simple gospel message of which thousands if not millions have entered into relationship with Christ because of it.
Millions have heard Billy Graham, perhaps billions altogether, but reality is only a small part go forward, and large part of those who’ve gone forward don’t bear the fruit of a regenerated life in the years subsequent. It is the Word of God that works despite the messenger who speaks it. The end doesn’t justify the means.
Not to be contentious Chris, but I think you meant to say he “preached…” He’s dead now my friend.
When did Billy Graham die?
Not dead yet…
To quote the “Holy Grail”
He must have been thinking about Ruth Graham’s death this year.
Timothy B,
No, I think he was thinking about Monty Python…
iggy
Pardon me, but where does it say that the person who posted this is in agreement with the book.
Are you serious?
I will buy this argument as soon as people like Ken Silva and others stop bashing authors for citing sources that were written by “heretics.”
I’m talking about Joe Martino’s answer, not Phil’s.
Chris P, what about CR?N quoting Bonhoeffer favorably? Bonhoeffer was neo-orthodox. Or Dr. Walter Martin, who was divorced twice and married 3 times?
Timothy Bell,
“I’m talking about Joe Martino’s answer, not Phil’s.”
(My reference point to which I am ’spaining myself from)
Dearest friend and brother in Christ Jesus…
I was very aware of who you were talking to… and I made a jest. So sorry to not be funny.
iggy
Iggy, I never know with you. LOL
Mr Timothy Bell, will care to just explain in a few sentences why you believe that Billy Graham is a fraud? Your subjective statement that “a large part of those who’ve gone forward don’t bear the fruit of a regenerated life in the years subsequent” does not make him a fraud. Even if one single individual out of the millions who have heard him passes YOUR litmus test for a regenerated life, there will be great rejoicing in heaven.
Timothy,
I’d be interested in a cite to your claim that Billy Graham is a free mason.
I apologize. I was wrong (again). He’s alive and stamping.
I have a great sense of humor… or was that direction… hmmm maybe that was purpose… maybe it was memory.. I have a great memory… or….
oooo looky! A shiny thing!
I’ll get back to you… if I remember…
iggy
On Billy Graham and freemasonry…
http://www.cephasministry.com/n1099.html
I wonder if facts do matter…
iggy
Subject: Freemason
Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 11:23:21 -0500
From: dkinde@graham-assn.org (Don Kinde)
Thank you for your e-mail message. We understand your concern about rumors that Mr. Graham is in some way associated with Freemasonry. The reports are erroneous — though we continue to hear them. Mr. Graham is not, has not been and does not expect ever to be involved in Freemasonry. Your help in keeping the record as accurate as possible would be much appreciated.
Sincerely,
Don Kinde
Christian Guidance Department
Billy Graham Evangelistic Association
Taken from
http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/anti-masonry/anti-masonry03.html
just more info to educate the masses…
iggy
I love how ANYTHING that McLaren says is immeditely dismissed by CRN as heretical and unbiblical. But, the second a non believer agrees with them…sweet!
Thank you, Nathan, you completely surrounded my point. If Hitler criticized Bell they would print his book and say “We didn’t say we agreed with him!”.
The world has no part in any of us, let us discuss our differences among us as men and women of God, strongly but with love and humility, but the world gets no invitation except the gospel!
As far as Billy Graham being a freemason, waaay back in the early days of the internet, a couple of masonic lodges had listed Billy Graham as being a mason. Basically, they merely listed what they always had in printed form. They were told to remove his name citing that it was a ‘mistake.’ Since then Billy’s organization issued a denial that he was a mason.
Knowing the masons are extremely careful and cautious about what is made public about themselves, I doubt that Billy Graham’s name being listed on “Famous Masons” was a mistake. The internet just brought this out wide open and greater scrutiny of the organization by Christians wouldn’t be what the masons want.
Do I have proof that Billy is a freemason? No. But again, even if I did, would you believe me? If you think you would, then go here:http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/film/Zapruderstable.mov
I say the actual assassin of JFK is in this Zapruder film. Look at the driver at chest level in the milliseconds before JFK’s head blows open. Do you believe your eyes? Didn’t think so.
Timothy Bell,
So then let us say he was at one time a long time ago… and he forgot… or that the list was of honorary celebrity masons…
So we not forgive and move on… if Billy stated he was not… I think I would trust he was not lying… but at least give credit that he distanced himself from them and made it known HE WAS NOT ONE.
Now, this to me is symptomatic of another issue… the lack of willingness to allow reconciliation and restoration from the ODM’s…
They cast stones yet do not give forgiveness…
Sad really,
iggy
Iggy, that is a big fat brush you are smearing on ODMs.
Nathan: You said: I love how ANYTHING that McLaren says is immeditely dismissed by CRN as heretical and unbiblical. But, the second a non believer agrees with them…sweet!
My version: I love how most ANYTHING that John MacArthur says is immeditely dismissed by CRN.Info as heretical and unbiblical…
Let the rebuttals and corrections begin. (Please note I said “most”)
Keith -
Most = not me.
I like much of his teachings. He tends to be a little know it all sometimes, but I have benefited by his ministry.
Keith,
Ummm… even, I do not go that far… I do take issue with his comments… like,
Now how can anyone state “Jesus uses that illustration to compare a person, counting the cost to become a Christian, therefore elevates war, makes a noble illustration.” To me that cuts across the grain of the teachings of Jesus… I do agree we can protect ourselves… yet to go so far as to state Jesus “elevates war, makes a noble illustration.” is not truth at all.
John states many things I disagree with… yet I have yet to say he is not saved. I have encountered people from his ministry that are lairs and dishonest… and seem to justify their actions because in their mind the end justifies the means as they are defending “truth.â€
Now, the BIG difference is that the word “heretic” is being tossed out… and we forget that people in the past who were labeled as such were burned at the stake.
I think we need to understand that there is a big difference between aberrant and heretical…
We need to understand that JM’s comment are “aberrant” as well as Brian’s… and that a heretic denies the foundational and core teachings of the faith.
I have not read or seen one thing that makes Brian a “heretic” as it was originally meant to be used.
However, I have grave questions about “lordship salvation” and the psychological damage it does to those who follow that teaching.
Blessings,
iggy
I am a pacifist as well as a non-nationalist, so I would strongly disagree with MacArthur.
With that discloser I am a mongel. Usually people like me are war mongering Republicans, right?
Timothy,
What does the Zapruder film have to do with Billy Graham and freemasons?
Why are you so quick to cast aspersions with no proof? You admit you have no proof, yet you are so certain of a charge that, in Christian circles, is so serious?
With all due respect, it’s all pretty despicable. And the Zapruder film stuff is just nutty.
Rick,
I am a semi-pacifist… I will defend my family to the death… but I will not go to war for a nation.
I will try to be the best citizen I can be as taught in Romans.
Believe me this is a long way from where I was.
I serve one King and one Kingdom.
As far as war, we will have them. yet, I do not see any war “just”… maybe retionalized… but never justified.
Be blessed,
iggy
Billy Graham was born in the grassy knoll!
M.G.
There is nothing between Billy Graham and the Zapruder film. Nothing at all. I didn’t say there was.
There are many other websites that list Billy Graham’s less than Christian stance on abortion, homosexuality, the Catholic Church, ecumenicalism, etc. that one can find by googling. To me, that serves as circumstantial evidence as to the possibility that Graham is a mason. It fits.
As far as the Zapruder film, it shows what really happened. But you are entitled to your opinion on that.
We Do (The Stonecutter’s Song)
Who controls the British crown?
Who keeps the metric system down?
We do, we do
Who keeps Atlantis off the maps?
Who keeps the Martians under wraps?
We do, we do
Who holds back the electric car?
Who makes Steve Gutenberg a star?
We do, we do
Who robs gamefish of their site?
Who rigs every Oscar night?
We do, we do!
Rofl, Phil.
It reminds me of the first time I heard someone at the office utter the phrase “It must be true. I read it out on the internet…”
The only ‘evidence’ provided by Google hits, in general, is proof by assertion, unless accompanied by something more substantial…
You know I heard Timothy Bell is a free mason… I mean someone can’t “know” as much as he does without proof unless…
Blessings,
iggy
To engage in character assassination on the basis of rumors and innuendo found on the internet is sin.
Unless you studied them.
I’m not a freemason, I pay!
Iggy,
Yes, the lack of proof just shows you how deep the conspiracy goes. We’re through the looking glass here people!
M.G., there are plenty of evidence of BG’s non-Christian stance on various issues from his own writings, interviews, etc. I ain’t the first one to show this. It goes way back before the internet days.
Kissinger is the anti-christ.
K=6
iss=6
ing= -2
er=8
Timothy,
You stated that Billy Graham was involved in “freemasonry evil.” You then admitted that you have no proof for the basis of this opinion.
To state that someone is involved in an evil enterprise without proof is sin.
Tim – this thread seems to be a departure for you. As Rainman asked, “Are you taking any prescription medication?”.
M.G., I did back off from making the assertion of BG’s freemasonry membership in my first posting about it to adding qualifiers in the last couple of my postings. It is an opinion of mine that he is a freemason. And I’m not alone in the opinion that BG has moved a bit from historical Christianity which to me is not surprising given my opinion.
Rick, are you talking to Tim Reed?
No TB I was referring to you. I never figured you for a conspiratorialist. Just a theory I had.
Yes, I do hold to a conspiratorial view of history. One becomes that when you learn about the Jesuits. A good book on that is “Rulers Of Evil” by Tupper Saussy.
Wow, a “Jesuits” sighting! There is one true God and Jack Chick is His messenger.
Rick, here is a couple of articles related to the “Rulers Of Evil” book.
http://www.tuppersaussy.com/museum/html/writings/roe/mystery%20woman.html
http://www.tuppersaussy.com/museum/html/writings/articles/romancore.html
So i take it TB you never warmed up to John Paul II?
Timothy,
I checked out those links.
You don’t actually believe that stuff, do you?
The above is from your link, TB.
John Kerry is a back slidden, cultural Catholic. To think that the Pope has him in his pocket is silly. I come from MA and know a little bit more than you about Kerry.
LoL, Rick. You got dat rite.
M.G., yes, I believe that stuff. Here is the link to the first 8 chapters of the “Rulers Of Evil” book. Follow the link at the end of each chapter to go to the next chapter.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070503092529/www.rulersofevil.com/chap1.html
Timothy,
So you don’t pay federal income taxes per an 861 argument? What’s your address? I think I’m going to call the cops…
“Here is the link to the first 8 chapters of the “Rulers Of Evil†book. ”
I had my devotions in Chapter 5, verses 7-10 this morning.
M.G., no, I do pay my income tax, thank you! lol I found the 861 tax issue interesting and really the Tax Code and Federal Code doesn’t really address who pays the tax other than those who are foreigners who earned income within the United States. But trying to actually not pay income tax, well, that’s another story which I’m not part of.
LOL Rick. Just to make sure you understand, the Rulers Of Evil book is more of a history book rather than the Bible! : )
Hey TB, I don’t vote, I hope you’re not a compromiser. I teach Sunday School at the First Baptist Church of Ruby Ridge!
No, I don’t vote either. Tweedledee and Tweedledum, what’s the difference?
Rick: There is no way Henry Kissinger is the antichrist. I read (I hate to admit) the first book (and only the first one) of the “Left Behind” series and Henry wasn’t mentioned. Besides, Tim LaHaye already said it was some guy named Carpathia or something like that. Gee whiz!
In case of rapture (if there is one), this PC will be unmanned.
I hope you got the joke, Keith. It was a throwback to the days when everyone had a theory. Anyway we all know it is Gorbechov!
I want to address a comment from Keith earlier.
I am willing to say that no person that writes for this blog thinks that everything Johnnie Mac says is heretical. In fact, there is hardly anything he says that is such. We think it is rediculous where he draws lines (i.e. if you are not a Calvinist, you are practically not a believer). I subscribe to Johnnie Mac’s newsletters and get his CDs on a regular basis.
We laugh at the fact that men like those who write for CRN practically hang their theology on the words of JM. If you cross him, you have crossed the cross.
When did that happen?
Not to be contentious but…
Nothing about Freemasonry though…I checked all over the internet. LOL