You have the unique honor being the first to call me a calvinist. I’m being honest. Thx. So i guess i am? Lol

Hello Chris L,

Yeah. I recognise the same pattern of old made new.

According to this concept i’m thinking…

When the seed forms the new plant, the seed is no more? When the new self is there, the old self is no more? When the earth is a new earth, as Isaiah 65 says, the old earth shall be no more as it is not brought to mind? When we are ressurrected in christ in the 2nd coming, we have new bodies and the old is no more? When we are regenerated in Christ, we have a new heart and the old is no more?

Thanks. I learn new things everyday.

Nice to be able to converse with you on this deep subject. So will the earth be destroyed and a total new earth come? Or smething else? But my stand is still that the earth will be a totally new one.

If you follow the same thread from beginning to end, beginning with Genesis, where God creates and declares it “good”, Adam’s introduction of sin through Jesus and his resurrection, the theme of a ‘new’ creation is viewed in terms of ‘resurrection’.

While Jesus was in the tomb, the Jewish Feast of Unleavened Bread (specified in Leviticus) was going on, where during the day the entire nation prays:

Baruch attah Adonai, Eloheynu Melech Haoolom, hamotzee lechem min ha-oretz.

“Blessed are You, O Lord our God, King of the universe, Who brings forth bread from the earth.”

It is in the picture of resurrection that I think the concept of ‘old made new’ takes shape. Resurrection is demonstrated in the picture of a seed, which appears dead and lifeless. When placed in the earth and resurrected by God, it comes up as a ‘new’ plant. (I’ve written a bit more about this in conjunction with Holy Week earlier this year.)

This is the picture in Paul’s teaching of the old being made into a new creation. In the same way, this earth and the people in it are dead to sin from the first Adam. In Jesus, God will make this world into something new – like a plant that comes from a seed. The picture from prophecy is a ‘passing through fire’ – where fire is a symbol for God and his purification of what passes through him.

I know you will agree that Jesus is the foundation of our faith!

 

And you and Chris L. can learn much from each other, Chris is too smart for me!

I don’t think hanging a phallic picture at the house would be useful, esp during guests and dinner time. Lol. I think i’m not emotionless too, i think.

Nice talking to you. Will hang around here from time to time. But not with a rope or a hook. Hanging around using those are painful.

Yeah. Thx for the info. It was most clear and extensive. I see a difference between hades and the abyss now. You do go into detail alot. Its a good job =)

Totally agree on the part here. It makes so much sense.

[1. When everything is complete, there will be no chaos [abyss] because all of creation will be complete.
2. When God is fully returned, all will be resurrected, so no death will exist, and there will be no further need for the grave [Hades] to hold the bodies.
3. When God returns and all are judged, there will be no more need for hell, as those who are judged against will be cast into the lake of fire along with hell (”this is the second death”).]

Cause the dead-in-christ people were already destroyed by rev 21 yeah? I get it now.

Nice to be able to converse with you on this deep subject. So will the earth be destroyed and a total new earth come? Or smething else? But my stand is still that the earth will be a totally new one.

I suppose this is what you mean? Its not convincing to me however. sry abt that. While it might symbolise chaos and hell, it does not mean the sea is hell itself. In addtion in scripture, both the earth and sea vomit out their dead during judgement.

Just some notes on the ’sea’:

1) The sea was seen to represent chaos,which is different than hell – a place of judgement. Chaos (tohu a vohu) was seen as the opposite of God, who is the creator. In the Hebrew mind of Jesus day and before, this was seen as first evident in Genesis 1:2 -

Now the earth was formless and empty [tohu a vohu], darkness was over the surface of the deep [the abyss], and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

Where did the pigs go after Jesus cast legion into them? They returned to the abyss.

When Jesus calmed the storm, his disciples would not have only seen this as control over nature, but as control over the very stronghold of evil spirits.

When Jesus came to the disciples, walking on top of the water, this was again a statement of his mastery over evil.

If someone should make a little one stumble, where is it that Jesus says he should be cast? Into the abyss!

In addition Hades (the abyss) and the sea were addressed different in revelations 20.

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Hades is not the abyss. Hades, called Sheol, translated ‘the grave’, in the Hebrew Scriptures (which we call the Old Testament), is under the earth, whereas the abyss is under the water. So, in this verse, the writer is noting that all of the dead – those in the abyss (the water), those in the earth (Hades) and those who died and whose bodies were in neither place (death) – were brought forth to be judged.

Revelations 21, and revelations 20 should follow the same context and they are actually linked? So the sea is fundamentally different from Hades in Rev 21, since the same can be said of revelations 20.

Rev 21 and 22 are indeed linked and, as noted, the sea (the abyss, representative of chaos) and Hades (which is under the earth, where the dead go) are two different concepts. One (the abyss) is inherently evil, as it the opposite of God.

Here is the picture we are given by John:

1. When everything is complete, there will be no chaos [abyss] because all of creation will be complete.
2. When God is fully returned, all will be resurrected, so no death will exist, and there will be no further need for the grave [Hades] to hold the bodies.
3. When God returns and all are judged, there will be no more need for hell, as those who are judged against will be cast into the lake of fire along with hell (”this is the second death”).

The concept of abyss was highly developed in Hebrew thinking and literature in Jesus’ day, and everything he did and said regarding it – including choosing fisherman as his disciples – spoke clearly about his mastery over it. Archaeologists have uncovered a great deal in the Galilee region:
1. Despite being the most lushly fertile places in the land, the northern Galilee was primarily unsettled until the diaspora Jews from Babylon returned after the Hasmonean revolt, 150 years before Jesus’ birth. The diaspora Jews settled there because it was the only land available, and even then build most of their settlements away from the edge of the water.
2. In the northern Galilee, Capernaum and Bethsaida were the two towns built on the edge of the abyss. While Jesus was born in Nazareth (nowhere near the water), where did he choose to live and minister – Capernaum and Bethsaida.
3. The primary industry of Capernaum was stone masonry, and Bethsaida’s industry was agricultural – there are estimates that during Jesus’ day there were – at most – a couple dozen fishermen working in the northern Galilee region, yet Jesus chose 5 of his 12 disciples who were fishermen – including John, the author of Revelation. In doing so, Jesus chose men (actually teenage boys, most likely) who were unafraid of evil spirits enough to actually venture into the edge of the abyss in order to make a livelihood.

[Just to note, I don't normally go into this level of detail, but you happened to hit a hot-button area into which I've done an enormous amount of study - note the title of my personal blog, and the mission statement - http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/?p=17 ]

Blessings,

Chris

Hey man, no one gave me a choice in the matter… they laid it out like this… my dad was, so they wanted me to be like him… and to that I did the same with my son… strange though to think that I am so “Grace oriented” that I still decided to go with the big “c” with my son! LOL!

I think it was more that as we looked into it we saw more dr.’s saying it would be more benifitial in the long run…

Blessings,
iggy

Just a joke, if you hang around here Lance and you are welcome here anytime I will joke, you know, a merry herat and all that.

I am happy to see you are not emotionless. We must accept God’s justice upon unbelievers, but just perhaps some of the tears God will wipe away will be for them but in no disrespect to God’s sovereign justice.

He does all things well!

You are circumcised? How come? Is it painful to undergo circumcision??

I am ready to admit that i may have portrayed calvinism, (if i am one) as a lifeless emotionless doctrine. It was never meant to be that way and maybe the words i typed made it look that way. Sry if it hurts u in any way.

Hello Chris,

I agree that the change is fundamental, because the scriptural passages do say that and i affirm that too before your post (ref my take on ezekiel 36 new spirit etc… ).

But even then, most commenters would agree that the old world that we live in will be destroyed and a new one made, consistent with Isaiah 65 and Rev 21.

I tried hard to find a site that talks about abyss. But somehow i just can’t lol. Thanks for the site. (from site)

[Not surprisingly, biblical writers often used the sea to describe terror and danger. And in Jesus? day, Jewish people would have recognized the sea as a symbol of chaos and hell.]

I suppose this is what you mean? Its not convincing to me however. sry abt that. While it might symbolise chaos and hell, it does not mean the sea is hell itself. In addtion in scripture, both the earth and sea vomit out their dead during judgement.

In addition Hades (the abyss) and the sea were addressed different in revelations 20.

13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.

Revelations 21, and revelations 20 should follow the same context and they are actually linked? So the sea is fundamentally different from Hades in Rev 21, since the same can be said of revelations 20.

What do you think? Juz a thought and dun take it personnally yeah?