I was at a Vineyard Regional in Great Falls MT since last Thursday… so i guess I missed a bit of excitement…
I am very glad that we do not have to figure out how to let you post from Heaven!!!! I am sure if it was OK’d by the Big Guy (slang for God almighty but still meant will all respect and love!) He’d found a way to let you post. LOL!

Hey, next time send me an email that you need prayer. I do cherish the friends I have so never hesitate to ask… I have seen a few miracles happen in my life… even in the last few days.

Hey, you might even be one of the privileged few to get my phone number if you wanted it.

Be Blessed,
iggy

What is true is that the tone and approach of many of the Old Testament prophets and seers was much more caustic than the early apostles in the New Testament. I do wonder if MacArthur (as an example) believes in prophets for today?

BTW – where were you Iggy? I just got back from the hospital. I still have a cast on my leg and a red line began to appear on my leg and we feared maybe a blod clot, I have already had two heart attacks. It is just and infection, praise His name.

To be honest with you, my family needs me but if not for that I am willing to go. I wonder if Chris would still let me post from time to time from heaven?

“Well Chris, do you want to go read how people reacted to the prophets in the Old Testament or to Stephen when he preached after being falsely accused and arrested. Were the prophets and Stephen arrogant and all those angry people simply misunderstood? Have you ever considered that what Ken is telling us the truth? If you refuse to consider that then I would suggest that the mantle of arrogance resides in your court.

In Christ

Mike Ratliff”

OK you have lost it… if you are equating Ken with the OT prophets… LOL!

Sorry that is to ridiculous to even take seriously…

Then to state this!

The only “inspired” part I saw there was when he saw Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father, but that was as he was being stoned.

That is just blasphemous as can be and is total error and false teaching… you are stating Stephen did not speak under the power and inspiration of the Holy Spirit!?!?! If so how did he even see Jesus at the right hand of the Father!!! Then Peter did not speak while inspired also… and all those that were saved were false conversions!

You are teaching heresy there dear friend…

Now tell me that God was not on Stephen as his face shown the Glory of God… (Acts 6:15) and then prove that Stephen was not inspired as he was ” full of the Holy Spirit,” (Acts 7:55) Unless you think we no longer need the Holy Spirit because we have the bible now… which is again a false teaching!

For all the rhetoric… if this is your belief… repent.

Be Blessed,
iggy

What i dont like about preachers like warren, billy graham is that they dont preach the full counsel of God. the gospel starts at law, sin, wrath of God and death. the bad news always comes before the good news. otherwise there is no need of the gospel and Christ. we need to show people as they truly are in their sinful condition so that their need for a savior becomes obvious.

Chapter and verse?

You have completely missed the point of both the parable and the difference between theological error and salvation (which are not synonymous).

The parable teaches that it is God who sets the separation of the wheat and the tares – that is, determines the saved from the unsaved.

Theological error does necessarily not equate with a loss of salvation, which is the heart of your (and the ODM’s in question) error.

Should we strive to discern the truth? Yes. Should we disfellowship when we arrive upon a difference of interpretation of scripture – particularly in non-essential manners outside of the basic gospel message? Probably not nearly as often as has been done in the history of the church.

What the Judiazers were trying to do was beyond simple theological error – it was teaching that one still had to convert to Judiasm in order to be part of the ‘chosen’ people of God. That seems to be a far sight different than churches who take Mark 1:4 more literally than others…

And if what you said, that it isnt our duty to pull out the tares, was true then consider

Rev 2:2
I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars.

Why does Christ commend the church of Ephesus for trying the false apostles and proving them to be so. They weren’t prophets and neither were they apostles but ordinary church members who did the right thing but testing and pointing out error and those who brought them in. And Paul explicitly mentions us to beware of false preachers in order that we separate from them lest like leaven their false teaching leavens the whole church. if something is patently wrong then its always better to correct it. And there does comes a time when false teachers refuse to repent. In such cases we separate and warn others of their heresy. But it does require a lot of discernment to make sure we dont fight over minor details of little consequence.

What i dont like about preachers like warren, billy graham is that they dont preach the full counsel of God. the gospel starts at law, sin, wrath of God and death. the bad news always comes before the good news. otherwise there is no need of the gospel and Christ. we need to show people as they truly are in their sinful condition so that their need for a savior becomes obvious. instead we cajole and plead people to accept Christ making him to be some sort of a cure for all our problems. and when our selfish desires dont work out they go back to their former ways. and all this while they have deceived themselves into believing themselves as christians. the goal of preaching the gospel is to cause people to despair and see their hopeless condition. it is at this point where many preachers fail. just say a mechanical prayer and you are saved. but this isnt true. without repentance there is no salvation. and we dont repent because of our fear of hell / desire to go to heaven but because we have sinned against a holy God and because sin is exceedingly sinful. But i never heard either warren/graham dwell on the subject of sin and repentance but they sidestep it quickly to go to the love of God which is so pleasing to everyones ears. Now why would they do that? Isnt it because they themselves dont know or they fear men lest they be offended. Either way they are to be held accountable. Christianity has become more mechanical nowadays. Another thing i dont like about warren is his church growth/seeker sensitive churches. the churches must consist of only believers and they are to feed the sheep of God not entertain the goats as one said. The church of God should reflect the reality that the church is a spiritual body joined with Christ. So it consist of only regenerate members. we need discernment here also. and if they show the necessary fruits then we accept them else we dont.

You ask
“Is the entire point of the gospel ‘being saved’ in the final day? Is the gospel nothing more than an eternal fire insurance policy, for which we are the insurance agents, to make sure that the policy is filled out correctly to the last jot and tittle? If so, then your position might hold.”?

The gospel is more about being reconciled with God which is by his grace through faith alone in Christ alone than being saved from the fires of hell. The good news is that we are no longer condemened because by the sacrifice of Christ we are forever reconciled with God. The whole point of Christ coming to earth is save us for eternity. that i see as the bigger picture. this world is going to pass away anyway. and it is Christ who obeyed Gods law to the t and all we have to do is trust in him.

The gospel is primarily a testimony of what Christ has done. It isnt a way of life. The apostles didnt go about preaching you have to live so and so but they were witnesses to an event in history and asked people to repent and believe in the message. once regenerated however your lifestyle will also change.

Regarding theological error we need to remember what Paul said about the judaizers when they tried to add works to faith and thus change the whole gospel message. he called them accursed. the gospel isnt just ‘believe in Christ’ but also depends on what we know about Christ and his work. for example i can believe in a Christ who has 10 heads and 20 hands but that doesnt mean its the same historical Christ being talked about in the bible. but does that mean i am still a believer? no. some doctrines are so vital to the christian faith that denying them would make one an unbeliever.

if we are going to love our neighbor as ourselves then it behooves us to point out that one is eternally damned and is heading towards destruction. warning others of danger is a good thing. wouldnt you do the same if it was one of your loved ones?

James 5:19-20
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Gal 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted

Have you ever read Christianity and liberalism – Gresham Machen? I highly recommend it. sorry for the long post. i wont be posting anymore. hope this answers your questions.

Point taken on angels=servants (one should be careful when writing on the fly – I frequently forget that). The underlying point, though, that it is not our job to separate the wheat from the weeds, still stands, though.

As you might have already guessed, i dont agree with what rick warren, joel osteen etc; are doing because their fruits arent according to how a true servant of God should be.

What exactly is is that Warren has done in which his “fruits arent according to how a true servant of God should be”? Having known a number of people from Saddleback and an even greater number whose first contact with the church as an adult was via PDL, and who are not mature Christians, I’m struggling a bit with this. Is PDL, itself, pretty basic and thin, when standing on its own? Yes, I would agree. If it is treated, like some churches have treated it, as a standalone, 3-step program to growth with no follow-up, then it can do more harm than good. Is this Warren’s fault, though?

Better to find out that we arent saved here than to find out then. i would rather point out that one isnt saved and be proven wrong here than to know that they might not be saved and be proven right on that final day.

Is the entire point of the gospel ‘being saved’ in the final day? Is the gospel nothing more than an eternal fire insurance policy, for which we are the insurance agents, to make sure that the policy is filled out correctly to the last jot and tittle? If so, then your position might hold.

If, however, the gospel is not just about the future, but also about how we live today, then all should hear about it – the saved and unsaved – so that all the world may know that our God is the one true God! Theological error does not necessarily equate with damnation (unless you really want to add to the gospel by arguing that holding the wrong view on eschatology, braiding of hair , cultural translation of orthopraxy, etc. leads to damnation). I say proclaim the gospel to all men, and let those who are saved be blessed in the affirmation of living in the kingdom, and let those who are not have their hearts softened by the Father. It is not for us to decide which is which…

but as i have already stated all things to be done in love with the goal of reconciliation.

Agreed.

Thank you.

Especially telling is the line on Ken’s website where he calls you a “former friend”. As we hold one another accountable, we should be reproving and rebuking in love, not merely exposing. Talking about folks in such a way on a website for all the world to see makes me shiver: I certainly am glad God will judge me on the merits of Christ, and not by the requirements of Ken Silva.

And with that statement you have legitimized your entire view. I may not agree with all yoyr particulars, but I can fully embrace and discourse with a brother who strongly takes issue with those things you mentioned but remains in the Spirit of Christ.

Thank you Abe, we will speak again!