or do they seem a bit ashamed of Jesus’ humble circumstances?

In the past Driscoll has been critical of e/e churches for loving Jesus’ humanity but not his divinity. It seems we have the flip side of that here.

  • Share/Bookmark
This entry was posted on Saturday, October 6th, 2007 at 8:34 am and is filed under Steve Camp. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+/- Collapse/Expand All

339 Comments(+Add)

1   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 6th, 2007 at 10:55 am

I was thinking the same thing. Driscoll’s language was not inappropriate, is was correct. Bethlehem wa just like he described. The comment section is GREAT! You would think that Driscoll cussed of God himself from stage with the way they are talking about him. hilarious.

2   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 11:28 am

Tim: The title of your post begs the question: “Is it just me? I’ll just be terribly blunt here: No. It’s the whole stinkin’ lot of ya!

I’ve sat back for the past couple of days and just watched this blog. THIS post is so typical. CRN.Info and it’s contributors have to be (at times) some of the most arrogant and sometimes obtuse individuals I’ve ever encountered. You seem to think you have some kind of special insight that, until you came along, was totally undiscovered by the Christian community at large. You have much more spiritual eyes and discernment than anyone before our time. Thank GOD, you guys came along to straighten us out! Calvin, Edwards, Whitefield, Luther, etc. were all complete IDIOTS, but thankfully, we now have a blog that can enlighten our minds and show us the error of our ways! (I’m burning all of my MacArthur, Kistemaker, A.W. Pink and Calvin commentaries this afternoon. Obviously don’t need them with enlightening posts like this around. I would just take my commentaries to the dump, but I’m afraid some poor unsuspecting soul would find them, read them, and…I just can’t stand the thought of people being deceived like that!!!)

The fact that you see nothing wrong with Driscoll’s comments is very telling. His statement is crude, not funny, insulting and most certainly not edifying. He thinks he is being cute or funny by describing people who “change their own oil” or “eat a lot of Hot Pockets” as hicks. And his description of how the townspeople explained Mary’s pregnancy (”knocking boots…”) is absolutely inappropriate coming from a pulpit. Are you telling me that you could have uttered the same words from your own pulpit with a straight face?! (Actually, I think Gary Lamb or the MoviePastor would be right at home with this one)

Driscoll’s type of comments reveal a lot. Your condemning people for finding fault with his statement says a lot as well. If my pastor spoke like this during a sermon on Sunday morning, he wouldn’t need his notes for Sunday night–he wouldn’t be employed.

What in the world makes it necessary to connect with people/congregations is such crass, juvenile way? And the fact (at least that’s what you seem to imply) you see nothing wrong with it…I’m absolutely stunned. We can speak about Jesus’ humanity without lowering ourselves to this.

Let the caddy, snarky, smart-aleck, rebuttals begin! You won’t be wrong. You never are.

3   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 6th, 2007 at 11:44 am

Keith,
The problem here is there is effectively no way to have communication with you now, if we respond in any manner other than agreeing with you, you can go back to your Indian rain dancing and say, “See, See, I told you, you’re never wrong.” Personally, I’ve apologized rather publicly before for being wrong. I just want to ask though, it’s OK to make fun of people and put them in “posters” and then make fun of another person who makes posters that she feels more accurately represent her view, but if we say, Well it sounds like what Driscoll was saying was true, we’ve got problems. Perhaps, if you read your N.T. carefully you will see that Driscoll is fairly accurately representing what the Jews accused Mary of.
The quote, “At least we know who our father is…” comes to mind. Now, what could they have meant by that?
As for never being wrong, maybe we’re all guilty of that now and again, except you of course.

4   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 6th, 2007 at 11:55 am

Keith, for the record I know what Driscoll was attempting to teach, I disagree with his verbiage.

I own and have read books by the men you referenced. I asked one of Calvinitic friends why It seems that the Calvinistic men like Whitefield and Spurgeon and others were different than some of the ones of today. He agreed with my perception and suggested that just like Arminianism has changed so has Calvinism. I am thinking on that, but I do not subscribe to Driscoll’s terminology.

So am I still in the “whole stinking lot”?

5   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 11:57 am

Keith,
I’ve pointed out before that Driscoll is a PG-13 guy in an R-rated town. I don’t particularly have a problem if someone wants to say that Driscoll is too crude for them. His style of communication isn’t for everyone. I mean that literally. Its meant to communicate to Seattleites, and he seems to be doing a pretty good job of it.

What I do have a problem with is denying the circumstances of the Biblical narrative out some misplaced sense of propriety. I don’t care if you think the bare facts laid out by Driscoll are somehow shameful and unworthy of Jesus to the point where we have to clean up or deny what was actually going on. The entire point is that the entire work of Jesus’ mission was unworthy of him. Why we think we have to pretend he was born to some middle class couple in a clean, tidy little stable (first kind of those I ever heard of) I have no idea.

I find it interesting that all of the authors you listed as burning in favor of this blog have all been praised on this blog. What’s been criticized is the way their works have been used by watchdoggies.

I would also point out that the reason the e/e movement began at all was because of churches that have failed to communicate the gospel. Much of what the e/e has grabbed onto are scriptural observations, commands, and methodologies that have long been dormant. And this post I linked to is a great example of that. Many churches, and people have taught the divinity of Christ to the exclusion of his humanity. Without both you don’t have Jesus.

6   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 6th, 2007 at 12:03 pm

“I find it interesting that all of the authors you listed as burning in favor of this blog have all been praised on this blog. What’s been criticized is the way their works have been used by watchdoggies. ”

Amen.

7   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 12:34 pm

Joe: We weren’t talking about posters. Stay on topic.

Rick/Tim: Then why not communicate “what Driscoll was attempting to teach” in a less crude way? Why does it HAVE to be graphic. I’m not stupid. I’ve read the story (Joe). I know where and under what circumstances Jesus was born. Do I have to give you all the minute, gorey details of a rape for you to understand what happened? Same here.

If we are going to let Driscoll pass on this one, why not take it a step further since we all know “what was actually going on?.” You want humanity? How about this:

About 2000 years ago, Jesus was born in a dump, rural, hick town, not unlike those today. You know the kind–where a bunch of half-wit, ni**er-hatin’, KKK-lovin’, grit-eatin’ greasemonkeys think a good time on Friday night is pulling on their shi**-kickers (Paul used that word, so it’s OK), head on over to Billy Ray’s BBQ for a slab o’ ribs and a couple of longnecks. Then they spend the rest of the night rolling faggots! Of course, nobody’s buying that “virgin story” Mary’s spewing either. Everybody knows ol’ Joe’s been tappin’ that for years!

How’s that for relevant and “accurately representing what the Jews accused Mary of?” Maybe I can get a job writing for Driscoll.

Rick: You’re one of “the whole stinkin’ lot” if you see nothing wrong with Driscoll’s presentation. You seem to be saying you have a problem with it, so I might let you slide.

Tim: You didn’t answer my question: Would you preach those same words from you own pulpit? If not, why not if they are accurate? Why aren’t you willing to say the “Seattleites” are wrong?

8   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 6th, 2007 at 12:59 pm

Keith, have you ever read my blog? Do I use language like that? Driscoll is known for crudeness, even worse than this, for effect. I would not attend his church with his type of graphic language. I would not even use the words you did as a reply, so I’m more conservative than you Keith and that whole stin’ bucn over there at Whatwuzithinkin! Oh yea, it’s only you!

In my view Driscoll’s approach is unecessary. I believe without firsthand evidence that a person who uses questionable language in the pulpit curses in private. I might be wrong but I think it might be true.

9   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 6th, 2007 at 1:01 pm

Keith,
You are one angry dude, today. I never said or implied you were stupid. You don’t seem all that interested in talking today, you seem more interested in shouting. Besides, didn’t your blog say you were trying to wean yourself off of us? I’m sick, so I’m going to wish you a good day and move on to homework.
Peace

10   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 1:30 pm

Keith,
I have preached in a similar way, though I didn’t draw on stereotypes of rural America to do it, as I suspect even the poorest, most rural American stereotypes would have been amazingly luxurious for the time.

As to why your example is inappropriate, well it comes back to taking the scriptures seriously. The details you chose to include aren’t even faintly similar to first century Nazareth.

BTW, if Driscoll’s characterization of 1st century Nazareth was too much for you I’d avoid the book of Hosea completely, also, most of Judges is probably a bit much for you. Here’s the thing, when it comes down to it, the Bible is a crude book. There’s all kinds of rough edges, dirty words, and scandalous incidents. Ultimately that’s why I’m not going to condemn Driscoll for saying this, or Seattleites for responding to it. The Bible isn’t G-rated (in fact it’d probably be at least NC-17), the apostles weren’t some Joel Osteen nice guys making sure that their sermons and letters were approved for 4 year olds. So, I have to question if our sermons don’t preach the Bible, all of it, including the rough bits, then are we faithfully teaching the Bible? Is a cleaned up, teeth whitened, air brushed Jesus really the Jesus of the scriptures? I know the manger scenes we put out at Christmas is comforting, but are they honest? Somehow I don’t think so.

11   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 1:31 pm

Rick said:”In my view Driscoll’s approach is unecessary.”

THANK YOU, Rick!

12   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 6th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

Mary was a simple peasant girl raised in an unremarkable city called Nazareth in a county called Galilee. It was a part of Israel that was what we would call working class, like a small coal mining town in West Virginia. It’s religiousness had morphed into cultural ritual and it was well abused by the pagan Romans, so when the Angel Gabriel came to give a message to this daughter of Judah the entire circumstance surrounding his visit and more importantly his message would be viewed with mass skepticism. Every piece of circumstancial evidence would point to an immoral lie rather than divine intervention.

God surely would not have chosen this rural and dusty place of obscurity to choose the vessel for His Son’s entrance.

13   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 2:04 pm

Tim: The details you chose to include aren’t even faintly similar to first century Nazareth. They had Hot Pockets and changed their own oil in first century Nazareth?! My comments are not taking Scripture seriously, but Driscoll’s are!? This is exactly the kind of logic I’m talking about. Tim, you bombed on this one and you don’t have the guts to admit it.

Your appeal to books such as Hosea or Judges is just lame. I’ve read them both and have yet to encounter the phrase “knocking boots” or any other crude euphemisms. There is just enough information there to convey the situation without being graphic. I know what a “harlot” is. I don’t need all the sorid details of how many men Gomer slept with, how many times or where they “did it,” what she was wearing, etc.

Joel Osteen is an idiot. He may be saved, but he’s still an idiot. (Didn’t want to be accused of saying someone isn’t a Christian.)
===
Joe: You bet I’m angry. I’m angry that comments like Driscoll’s are passed over/defended with statements like: “Perhaps, if you read your N.T. carefully…” I read a condescending tone in your comment.

Oh, and since I didn’t mention any names, why do you automatically assume I’m talking about this blog? The internet is a very big place (thanks to Al Gore).

BTW, I’m sorry you are not feeling well today. I mean that.
===
Rick: Yes. I’ve read your blog. I didn’t say or mean to imply that you “use[d] language like that. ” But what would be wrong if you did? Tim and others seem to have no problem with it. Big deal if people such as Driscoll [probably] “curses in private.” Makes him all the more relevant in the eyes of some people, don’t you think?

I don’t talk like that either. I was only making a point. And frankly, I felt dirty using some of the words I did. Sadly, some of those same words apparently are appropriate in certain pulpits/geographical areas.

14   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 6th, 2007 at 2:10 pm

I agree with everything you said, Keith.

And your words reminded me of a picture on your blog a few posts ago of a certain truck! ha!

15   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 6th, 2007 at 2:13 pm

I find Mark D. to be an abhorent, suburban, rich kid, with an axe to grind and anyone who gets in his way will get kicked in the teeth like an ultimate fighter who was just sucker punched in the temple. JUST KIDDING!

I’m more offended by Marks euphinisms about rural people than I am about his descriptors of Jesus’ town and parents.

16   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 2:26 pm

Keith,
The general view of the average Seattleite towards those who change their own oil and eat hot pockets is at least faintly similar to the view of the average Jerusalemite of someone from Nazareth. I didn’t bomb on this question, you just completely missed my point, because you have no conception of what Driscoll’s congregation is like. So, I suppose its a good thing you’re not the one trying to communicate with them.

The reason you don’t see the “crude euphemisms” is because you’re not a part of that culture (for example, Jezabel’s name was probably not her proper name, but was a Hebrew insult. They changed her name from a praise to Baal to a praise to crap, except a much stronger word). Euphemisms don’t have much of an impact outside of the culture they’re in.

But you also have explicit references to sex, alcohol abuse, violence, death on a massive scale along with many other events that we’d consider to be barbaric to say the least.

Taking all that into consideration, I can’t get all that worked up over what Driscoll said here. At least not from a crudity standpoint.

17   nc    
October 6th, 2007 at 3:08 pm

Actually despite his current social location Driscoll’s background is the very class strata he “described” in his take on Nazareth.

If you listen carefully to him you’ll see he is very self-conscious about his background, his lack of education and his need to constantly toot his “masculine” horn. All issues that are driven by class considerations.

There is more going on here than just determining sacrilege, socially appropriate terminology, etc–with Driscoll there always is more to what’s going on than what is typically fixated on.

Step back, see the big picture with regards to Marky mark and let it go…what I mean is this:

Let him go. He only “matters” if you make him an issue. He, along with a lot of currently popular people, are the proverbial flavor of the day.

You’ll give him an extended shelf life if
(a) you don’t ignore him
OR
(b) go postal when you do find it necessary to respond to him. Just state your case without rhetoric, pronouncements and tone. Then ignore him. Otherwise you become guilty of his own tactics and perpetuate a cycle much bigger than the current players.

18   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 6th, 2007 at 4:14 pm

You know there are some that say I am this site’s version of Mark Driscoll, and I have never. I mean never preached like this. :)

19   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 4:43 pm

Tim: I’m really having a hard time taking you serious on this one.

those who change their own oil and eat hot pockets is at least faintly similar to the view of the average Jerusalemite of someone from Nazareth. Driscoll says Hot Pockets and I say BBQ and Longnecks, but HIS comments are taking Scripture more seriously?! Good grief, you’re reaching.

But you also have explicit references to sex, alcohol abuse, violence, death on a massive scale along with many other events that we’d consider to be barbaric to say the least. WHERE in Scripture do you see “explicit references to sex, alcohol abuse, violence, death on a massive scale…” There is a huge difference in stating: “And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father…” (Genesis 19:33) versus “They got their father drunk, so he could h**mp her brains out all night.” THAT”S what I’m talking about and that is what was offensive about Driscoll’s remarks. It wasn’t the reality of what was going on. It was the crude way he described it!

you have no conception of what Driscoll’s congregation is like. Really? “For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart…every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.” (Matthew 12:34-36) My “concept” is that Driscoll and his congregation need to have their mouths washed out with soap.

I can’t get all that worked up over what Driscoll said here. At least not from a crudity standpoint. Start your sermon tomorrow with the same quote and see if your own congregation agrees. Pretty sad if they do.

for example, Jezabel’s name was probably not her proper name, but was a Hebrew insult. They changed her name from a praise to Baal to a praise to crap, except a much stronger word). Please cite a source for this one…and the correct word is SH**. Remember, Paul used it, so it’s okay.

20   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

Please cite a source for this one…and the correct word is SH**. Remember, Paul used it, so it’s okay.

I was just taking into consideration the needs of a weaker brother.

21   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 5:12 pm

Driscoll says Hot Pockets and I say BBQ and Longnecks, but HIS comments are taking Scripture more seriously?! Good grief, you’re reaching.

Actually, I was referring more to the racial and gay references than the BBQ and longnecks. While you might be able to make some connection to racial bias against gentiles I don’t think there’s an accurate comparison between American racism and the gentile/Jewish divide. Though I’m willing to listen.

I do, also, want to point out that BBQ and long necks are probably a cut above what was eaten in Nazareth. The entire idea is that this was a backwoods, dirt poor region. BBQ and long necks is my idea of a good meal, hot pockets on a regular basis is my idea of poor.

“And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father…” (Genesis 19:33) versus “They got their father drunk, so he could h**mp her brains out all night.” THAT”S what I’m talking about and that is what was offensive about Driscoll’s remarks. It wasn’t the reality of what was going on. It was the crude way he described it!

Do you have a problem with explicit descriptions of the cross? I see them all the time including the Passion of the Christ, as well as articles written by doctors, and historians. This is exactly the kind of thing Driscoll is doing here (and most good preachers do in general). Illustrating what was going on in a way that is understandable to the average person in the congregation is not a bad thing.

For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart…every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment.” (Matthew 12:34-36) My “concept” is that Driscoll and his congregation need to have their mouths washed out with soap.

So which word is it that is on God’s naughty list? Actually I’d suggest to you this wasn’t a “careless” word by Driscoll. It was deliberate, and it got the point across to his audience. Like I said before, if you want to say this was a bit much for you, or for your community I don’t have a problem with that, but to say this is some kind of a stone cold written in stone no-no, then I have to disagree.

Please cite a source for this one

It was a part of the curriculum for my OT History class at CCU.

22   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 7:25 pm

Tim: I’m waiting to hear that you used Driscoll’s remarks in one of your sermons.

Actually I’d suggest to you this wasn’t a “careless” word by Driscoll. You’re probably right. I’m sure it was deliberately crass. That’s what sells and makes him relevant. My brother-in-law would love that kind of language in a sermon.

What does the cross have to do with a crude reference to Mary’s virginity?! Now you’re starting to sound like another poster/commentor that apparently equates Halloween blood and gore with the crucifixion.

You’ve confirmed for me today what I HATE about “emerging conversation.” Like I said in my first post…you are never wrong and will never be wrong. You’ve had some seminary class, you’ve been to [fill in name]’s church and I don’t know anything about their congregation, etc., etc. Like trying to nail jello to the wall. Do you really wonder why TeamPyro and others say the things like this, this or this?

Is there ANYTHING written in stone for you? Seriously.

23   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 7:37 pm

Is moderation like “time-out?”

24   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 6th, 2007 at 7:43 pm

Who’s on moderation?

25   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 6th, 2007 at 7:45 pm

Keith,
I’m guessing your comment was caught by the spam filter b/c of the links. I freed it up.

26   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 8:02 pm

Keith,
My point is you get upset at Driscoll for expounding on what was going on in Mary’s situation, but you don’t blink an eye when there’s a voluminous breakdown of crucifixion. What’s the difference?

Is there ANYTHING written in stone for you? Seriously.

You mean other than that Keith isn’t the ultimate authority on scripture? Seriously.

Oh, and since you showed me yours, I’ll show you mine.

27   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 8:09 pm

Also, is it just me, or has Keith refused to admit he might be wrong on this issue? Weird, I thought only emergents did that. Wait, does that mean Keith is an emergent?

28   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 8:26 pm

Tim: No. I am not the ultimate authority on Scripture. In fact, I can’t think of a single thing on which I would/could consider myself the ultimate authority. I do know for a fact however, that I don’t care for the type of language you and Mark Driscoll deem appropriate for the pulpit. (Not gonna use Driscoll’s version of the “Christmas story” anytime soon, though…are ya?!)

Because “It was a part of the curriculum for my OT History class at CCU,” does that make YOU the ultimate authority on Scripture?

Man, I don’t see how you could miss it. YES, I am refusing to admit I’m wrong on this issue. This is one I won’t back off of. I’m sick and tired of Christians that “from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.” Makes me want to puke.

I’ve lost a lot of respect for you today, Tim (not that you probably care–maybe you think the same of me.) I thought there for a while you weren’t the typical CC guy, but I’ve seen today that you fit just fine. Here’s a church right up your alley if you’re ever in the Tulsa area. It’s the one I left.

29   nc    
October 6th, 2007 at 8:38 pm

I love it when people apply a particular contemporary sub-culture’s stringent understanding of language to their readings of pre-modern (read: ancient) texts of Holy Scripture.

There’s nothing like foreign criteria to help make scripture mean what any given social class needs it to say.

yeah. But only evil, pomo emergents are bad when they admit that the reader’s self, community and context affect EVERYONE’S reading of texts.

This issue of language, descriptions, etc. is a waste of time.

30   nc    
October 6th, 2007 at 8:40 pm

just let people do their thing
no one is making you listen to or attend Driscoll’s church or EC churches or whatever.

some people think being perpetually offended is a sign of spiritual maturity or true commitment to Jesus.

everyone should just give it a rest.

31   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 8:54 pm

Keith,

I do know for a fact however, that I don’t care for the type of language you and Mark Driscoll deem appropriate for the pulpit.

As I pointed out before, I don’t have a problem with a “community standards” approach to preaching etiquette. What I do have a problem with is a single community pretending that its standards are some sort of universal, global command handed by God himself. The fact is what was considered crude by the first century church is different from what you consider crude, which is different from what Driscoll’s church considers crude.

I do know for a fact however, that I don’t care for the type of language you and Mark Driscoll deem appropriate for the pulpit. (Not gonna use Driscoll’s version of the “Christmas story” anytime soon, though…are ya?!)

And that shows me that you don’t get it. For some reason you think this has something to do with something other than communication. Of course I won’t use the phrase “bumping uglies”, about 3/4 of my congregation would have no idea what I was saying. The other half would giggle because I don’t have the street cred to pull it off.

Man, I don’t see how you could miss it. YES, I am refusing to admit I’m wrong on this issue.

Just so we’re clear that you’re the one complaining about refusing to admit wrong, and then simultaneously refusing to admit wrong. A lesser man might drag out the dreaded H word. I prefer to think of as quirky.

I’m sick and tired of Christians that “from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing.” Makes me want to puke.

And there’s the rub of it. Where has their been any cursing? This has been one of my pet peeves for the longest time. The church has reduced cursing to a set of words that it finds inherently offensive. As a result you can shred someone to pieces as long as you don’t use one of those naughty words and you won’t find a single objection. How about we police actual cursing instead of looking for FCC standard violation.

I’ve lost a lot of respect for you today, Tim (not that you probably care–maybe you think the same of me.) I thought there for a while you weren’t the typical CC guy, but I’ve seen today that you fit just fine.

And there it is Keith. I don’t know what that church did to hurt you, but sooner or later you need to let it go. My interactions with you have been less than what you get sitting next to someone on an airplane and you’ve brought this up like 5 times now. I get it, you don’t like the Restoration Movement or the people in it, perhaps to the point where any communication from me is going to be tainted because your experiences with me are the exact opposite of your experiences with that church. I’m not telling you that doctrine doesn’t matter. In fact I’m sitting here arguing with you over doctrine. And yet somehow it comes back to all us stupid restorationists not giving a crap about doctrine.

Have a good Sunday Keith.

32   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 6th, 2007 at 9:06 pm

I apologize that last sentence was probably unnecessarily combative. I’ll remove it, but for everyone who saw it, it was not proper.

33   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 6th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

NC: That was some funny stuff.
Time Reed: Knowing (and not being a part of the restoration movement) I think it would be kind of funny if you used that phrase. Yeah, I’d laugh at you.
Keith: I think Tim might have hit something here. You seem to have an axe to grind with Tim’s denomination. Your arguments today were of a personal nature, something you usually avoid. I’m not sure why, but I did notice the difference.

34   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 9:27 pm

sooner or later you need to let it go. How about, sooner or later you need to ignore Ken Silva, Ingrid Schlueter, TeamPyro, etc? How about letting THAT go? If you’re not willing to do the same…

Not all Restorationists–just the bad ones. (And when did I or anyone else bring up doctrine?)

The fact is what was considered crude by the first century church is different from what you consider crude, which is different from what Driscoll’s church considers crude. I call that “situation ethics.” What’s wrong for you may be right for me. So…does this same approach apply to things like, oh for instance…the TeamPyro Emergent Posters? I think they are funny, you do not. Neither of us is wrong. The world is full of butterflies, unicorns and bright pink fairies.

Where has their been any cursing? And here we go again. Jump on a single word and run with it. So because there was no actual cursing as outlined by the FCC, the point is moot? I’ve never actually sat next to you on a plane, so can I ignore everything else you’ve said?

Actually, I think a “list” would be a great idea. Then there would be no question…but then I think that’s been tried and some people say we’re bound by the list today and others say we’re not; some say one word means “Sunday” and others say the word means “Saturday.” Oh, just forget it.

I’ve had fun today. You have a good Sunday as well. I’m using the Driscoll quote in my lesson tomorrow. Serious. Really.

35   nc    
October 6th, 2007 at 9:31 pm

Joe,

thx.
It just gets tiresome when people go on and on and on and on and oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooon about “out of the heart the mouth blah blah blahs”, but nobody seems to be bothered by their overwrought spasms/tantrums that cast aspersions on people they don’t even know. Yeah, that’s not a sign of the heart…

Obviously going to churches that are so right and perfect is boring as hell and so kicking people in the shins and looking around at other churches every failure breaks the tedium of perfection. Ah…the motionless, immutable, ineffable perfection of the divine. Thank you, Plato.

Besides, stroking ourselves with the good news of our own righteousness couldn’t possibly be all that bad. Teenage boys could probably attest…

ooooops…there’s that coarseness and evil entendre that only the emergents possess.

forgive me, I apologize.

I’ll withdraw now and return to my outhouse filled with the blood of the reformers.

BLESSINGS!

36   nc    
October 6th, 2007 at 9:53 pm

wow, Keith.
RE: “letting it go”

I don’t harp at the Cyber-God-Squad.
And since you bring it up, as do a lot of their defenders….

NOBODY gets to level the charge of “harping, tantrums, etc.” at anyone on this site. (contributors, creators, or even occasional commenters like me.)

Why?

Because arrogant harping, carping, shrieking and exigent tantrums are the currency of the god squad–even if some are quite eloquent and lucid.

Calling that out (by the good folk who manage CRN.info) is not the same thing, no matter how much anyone wants it to be.

But I will give the God-squad and their defenders credit…
It’s ingenius to establish whole “ministries” to perpetuate their own sinful attitudes that could be best remedied by turning their penetrating insight on themselves. It’s even more brilliant to further deflect by accusing their detractors of the very things they do.

“God has called me to a ministry of abusing people, pointing out their faults and generally poking people in the eye. If anyone, after being smeared, torn apart and slandered, says that they think I’m a jerk for poking them in the eye then they are hypocrites and are really the unloving ones. Nevermind that unprovoked, with no context of relationship or credibility, God has called me to a life of hurting other followers of Jesus–because I really know that they really aren’t Christians in the first place. They’re resistance certifies my own standing as a true believer in the remnant that stands against the man-loving new evangelical arminian ecumenical church of deceit. (But that doesn’t mean I’m a calvinist or a fundamentalist! Recognize!)”

Whatever.

Back to my reformer blood…

37   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 6th, 2007 at 10:25 pm

Man, where was everybody today?

“…cast aspersions on people they don’t even know.” NC, do we know each other—just in case your comments were directed at me?

38   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 6th, 2007 at 10:40 pm

Wow! You’re gone most of a Saturday and you miss a lot!

I realize I’m late to the conversation, but a few observations:

1) Contextual crassness aside, Driscoll’s description of Mary’s situation and the relative difference between the uncultured backwaters of the Galilee region is much more accurate than the sanitized version of Christmas most churches portray:

“Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?” Nathanael asked. (John 1:46)

Besides their uncouth, somewhat cultish reputation in the first century, Jesus’ birth in Bethlehem in a “stable” was most likely a shepherd’s cave (stables in Bethlehem have never been free-standing wooden structures) with inches/feet of manure on the floor. The manger would have been a carved impression in the stone floor. The shepherds that came to visit would have likely been prepubescent girls and (maybe) boys, socially considered to be the lowest of the low.

In contrast, Herod’s greatest palace, the Herodion would have dominated the skyline. The picture here is that the King of the Universe came to earth in the humblest of humble situations while less than 5 miles away, the richest of kings of this world sat in the most luxurious of palaces. It was a statement which compared the kingdom of God with the kingdom of men, and the difference in what holds value.

For more, you can go here.

Having a brother and friends in Seattle, I don’t know that Driscoll’s comments would be “over the top” out there. However, I can tell you that it wouldn’t play well here in central Indiana, though I think Tim’s would…

2) Joe said:

You know there are some that say I am this site’s version of Mark Driscoll, and I have never. I mean never preached like this.

I think I once said that you and Mark both have a bit of a combative streak in you, but I wouldn’t extend that to manner of speech…

3) I’m not sure what Keith is having a meltdown over here… he’s not in Seattle and Mark’s not his pastor. Let’s deconstruct what Driscoll said:

Roughly two thousand years ago, Jesus was born in a dumpy, rural, hick town,

True.

not unlike those today where guys change their own oil, think pro wrestling is real, find women who chew tobacco sexy, and eat a lot of Hot Pockets with their uncle-daddy.

Somewhat true, though it would be seen here in the heartland as a poor caricature of what sometimes goes on in the ‘poor white trash’ segment of society. Still, it is comparatively similar to a lot of contemporary descriptions of Nazareth (which fashioned itself a the birthplace of the coming Messiah, and whose residents referred to themselves in terms that (no kidding) would translate to ‘Branch Davidians’ – Koresh didn’t choose that name by accident).

The one inaccurate part of this (and the part I found inappropriate) was the ‘uncle-daddy’ part. The folks in Nazareth weren’t known for inbreeding (they were religiously cultish, but observent Jews).

Jesus’ mom was a poor, unwed teenage girl who was often mocked for claiming she conceived via the Holy Spirit.

Again, probably accurate, unless people assumed that Jesus was Joseph’s child conceived before the marriage occurred, but after the betrothal (which happened more often than we might like to think). This, in itself, would have held a great deal of shame.

Most people thought she concocted the crazy story to cover the fact she was knocking boots with some guy in the backseat of a car at the prom.

If she would have told the story about Jesus’ conception, yeah, this would have been true, as well. This statement would be inappropriate here in the Midwest, as well, but in Seattle (if even half of the stories I hear about the culture there are true) – probably not.

Holy cow – if you actually know anything about the euphemisms within scripture, you’d probably be tossing out Moses and other OT writers out on their ears as well… Like Ruth uncovering Boaz’ feet…

Oh well. Seems like a lot of sound and fury from folks in search of being offended…

39   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 6th, 2007 at 11:04 pm

Keith,

Now lighten up a bit… I think Mark is closer to things the way he is stating it.

I have not read the comments… I really do not like the abusive way Steve Camp interacts with people.

Yet, tell me… Joseph himself thought Mary was lying until God set him straight.

If you read the original language it is much courser than the cleaned up versions we have today… Isaiah spoke of filthy rags… sorry…

It was closer to saying used toilet paper or used menstrual rags!

Luther stated much courser things than Mark ever stated…

Here is one quote.

“But if that is not enough for you, you Devil, I have also s**t and p***ed; wipe your mouth on that and take a hearty bite.” ~ Martin Luther

If you want a reference I can get it for you….

I think we have created a Jesus so God-like… so higher than the biblical Jesus who lowered Himself and became a man… that (yes He is and was God) yet to deny he was man is almost more blasphemous… that is negating the incarnation, virgin birth, and that he physically lived and died on the Cross and it makes the Resurrection a total joke… It turns the real Jesus into the Gnostic joke of a Jesus.

Jesus was God who became man… to lose that is to lose Christianity in all its glory and to lose our very salvation and savior.

Be Blessed.
iggy

40   nc    
October 6th, 2007 at 11:17 pm

Keith,
Re: talking to you…
yes and no.

Just dove tailing off of your comment to a general observation about the way some “discerning” people have comported themselves…which is the primary concern of this website.

41   Jonathan Frueh    
October 7th, 2007 at 2:54 am

I guess Tozer, Finney, Wesley, Cambell, Spurgeon etc. had it all wrong. They should have brought the holliness of God’s divine word down to GUTTER talk. I go to a Bible college named Trinity University and I am taught by Theological doctors that have more of God’s word stamped on their heart than if you piled on 10,000 Bibles on top of Driscolls head! Do they have it wrong…I think not!!!!!!!! You may forgive or justify Driscoll’s terminology and he may call people like me “haters”, but the simple fact is that he doesn’t hold God or his words higher than he could hold a lighter to his ciggarette. I am usually more light hearted but this man is headed for severe judgment. I have had many a day where I have not represented my Lord in high esteem. And yes, I am just as imperfect as my Father the great Rick Frueh; But Driscoll has fallen way out of bounds with his “methods” of teaching and will suffer consequences he obviously knows not of! Disgusting, no matter how you slice it. What has Christianity come to? The story of the virgin birth and the manger scene has come down to the level where the story of Hansel and Gretel sits in the theological libraries. I am so grieved I don’t know what else to say. The Way, as the old times called christianity, has now turned to whichever way. I was going to visit a local church tomorrow and had the miss forutne of looking at their website. They are starting the thing called “Organic Jesus”. Who is that I might ask? I know you are not referring to my sovreign Lord and Savior in such a worldly way! I know that you are not referring to the one who is returning with a SWORD!!!!!!!!!! I am so disgusted…I rather go to the most dry calvinistic church on the face of the earth than step foot in the same county as Driscolls’ meeting place of the deceived. Sorry if I sound nasty, but I know the Holy Spirit is grieved!

42   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 7th, 2007 at 7:28 am

Since I’m a Youth Pastor I thought that I would share the verse all the guys in my youth group crack up about every year when someone mentions it.

Ezekiel 23:20

Talk about coarse language! Since Ezekial was a prophet I’m assuming these are Gods words.

43   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 7th, 2007 at 7:40 am

Jonathan in what way did Mark disrespect Jesus?

He used descriptors that accurately (some hyperbole) painted the picture of whom Jesus was born to, where he lived, and the people to whom he preached.

Your comment is so littered with hyperbole and assumption it’s really tough to know where you stand. Mark one week ago was lauded for his “breakdown” of the E/E (which in some ways was innaccurate). In fact many people took his words as “Gospel”. This week he’s the goat for teaching about Jesus’ hometown; which in many ways was accurate.

So my question is Mark in or out? Really I want to know. From my vantage point this (the referenced quote) equates to a “footnote” about Marks entire ministry.

44   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 7th, 2007 at 7:50 am

Sorry I just can’t get this line out of my head.

I go to a Bible college named Trinity University and I am taught by Theological doctors that have more of God’s word stamped on their heart than if you piled on 10,000 Bibles on top of Driscolls head! Do they have it wrong…I think not!!!!!!!!

That’s not really measurable criteria. Is it?

Most of the people who comment here try to do so with reason, logic, and the occasional reference. Albeit I tend to joke about stuff more than most (well not Iggy or Joe but most) but I try to have “sober judgement” in my assesment of most of the topics.

45   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 7th, 2007 at 7:55 am

Jonathan is a product of a home in which he never heard cursing and crass speech so it violates him on some level. He agrees with me about Driscoll’s ;anguage but thank goodness he has the fire of a first year Bible student.

My rule of thumb is that there is so much dead wood Christianity out there that a little wild fire might even be good. Mark is in, that was never the question.

FYI – Jon just spent four hours with me in the hospital where we witness to people who walked in the room. I got a chance to give a ten minute version of my testimony and when I told her about my being involved with a bank robbery plot she stopped and stared at me for five minutes. When I say to the nurses and my doctor “I am ready to go if that is God’s will” I must be ready to give and answer to the question about the hope that is in me.

Jesus – the only Eternal Hope!

46   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 7th, 2007 at 8:10 am

Jonathan,
You made a lot of statements without much to back them up. I graduated from a Bible college where there were lots of guys who understood a lot about the Bible. Same for Seminary, the only question here is Did Driscoll misrepresent Scripture? I gotta tell you I don’t think he did. What I see (even in your fathers defense of your enthusiasm) is a cultural thing. He’s not disparaging Mary or Jesus, he’s just telling you what that town looked like.
Your statement that I find most troubling is

I rather go to the most dry calvinistic church on the face of the earth than step foot in the same county as Driscolls’ meeting place of the deceived. Sorry if I sound nasty, but I know the Holy Spirit is grieved!

Would you mind explaining that to me? I’m not a fan of Driscoll, but your rhetoric sounds no different than others who determine who’s in and who’s out based on agreement with them. In other words, Driscoll (who is a Calvinist BTW, so I’m not sure what you were driving at there) has a church that is deceived b/c it doesn’t agree with you?
You came with a lot of emotion but not a lot clarity. Help me out.

47   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 7th, 2007 at 8:15 am

Hey Rick, I’m all for your sticking around here a lot longer, and hope you’re feeling better!

48   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 7th, 2007 at 8:25 am

Thanks, Chris, but my posts would be a lot more vivid!

49   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 7th, 2007 at 8:39 am

Run away, Jonathan! Run away!

50   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 7th, 2007 at 8:48 am

Why Keith, are you going to start yelling at him too?

51   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 7th, 2007 at 8:50 am

No, just trying to save him some frustration. Trying to kindly help a brother out.

Hope you are feeling better today.

52   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 7th, 2007 at 8:53 am

Thanks
I was going to try and go to church but I think I’m going to skip. First time in years and years, but I can’t quite get the whole stand up and walk thing without hacking up a lung so….

53   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 7th, 2007 at 9:26 am

Hope you are feeling better, Joe. No, Jon needs to learn how to engage, how to examine his own mistakes, how to be strong without self righteousness, how to confront while still projecting respect, how to forgive with getting any apology, how to apologize when he needs to, he needs some of this type of discource.

Jon, if you click on any blue name it will go to their blog and I comment sometimes on some including Keith’s. Joe, is that you hacking I hear?? Be well my friend.

54   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 7th, 2007 at 11:40 am

Rick,

I hope/pray that it isn’t quite your time, yet…Praying for healing for you.

55   Jonathan Frueh    
October 7th, 2007 at 3:41 pm

Well, Lets just let Driscoll rewrite the bible in his terminology(hyperbole etc.). Why not? Ahhh..the church fathers won’t mind! By the way, the calvinistic thing was suppose to be kinda funny! If you ask my father about what books I love he will tell you the “Gospel according to Jesus” is my favorite besides the bible. Remember, me and my father are humor people. By the way everyone, I am just getting my sea legs with this blog thing. Save some of the hard attacks for Rick Frueh; he is accustom to it. LOL

56   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 7th, 2007 at 4:17 pm

Well, Lets just let Driscoll rewrite the bible in his terminology(hyperbole etc.). Why not?

Please tell me that’s a joke.

This came from a sermon. Every half way decent sermon (or better) does this sort of thing to connect what the circumstances in scripture really like to their audience.

57   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 7th, 2007 at 4:26 pm

What Jon means is why not come out with a hip-hop or crass version of the Bible. What confounds me is that Driscoll claims to be a Calvinist and yet feels the necessity of being so relevant to even outdo some Arminian relevantists? Why?

Every sermon uses explanatory language so as to make it clearer. But when you say things like “knockin’ boots” for something that can just as easily be explained by less graphic and offensive language then you are doing it for effect.

Oh well, the train’s left the station and I don’t have a ticket.

58   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 7th, 2007 at 4:27 pm

I know I’m about to get shot at with both barrels but I honestly don’t see that big of a deal in using the phrase, “knocking boots” or “bumping the ugly’s.” Mary and Joseph did have sex.

59   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 7th, 2007 at 6:52 pm

My wife and I call it the horizontal mambo! Was that T.M.I.?

60   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 7th, 2007 at 7:23 pm

LOL, My wife and I tell the kids we’re praying.

61   Jonathan Frueh    
October 7th, 2007 at 8:22 pm

Joe, may I ask you a question? If so this is it. Can I say that Mary and Joseph never (blanked) until after Jesus was born. Just imagine what the blank stands for. When there are no lines then there is no spiritual playing field other than what our carnal minds can come up with. Driscoll is an attention hound. Whatever happened to if Jesus be lifted up…not what our “connecting minds” can come up with. When Driscoll uses his terminology it puts the focus on his shock or comical value. I guess Ezra has it wrong. By the way…knockin boots…Thats childs play. If he wanted some really graphic terminology he should have hung around me when I was lost in the world. Oh wait a minute, I will get my pastoral degree and bring all those disgusting terms back to the surface and really turn people toward Jesus. HAHA Proverbs 19:1

62   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 7th, 2007 at 9:19 pm

Jonathon,
The thing here is context. Saying “Other people in the town believed that Mary had sexual intercourse prior to being married” doesn’t carry the same connotations. Mary’s hometown denizens believed that she had hormone driven, pre-marital sex, which is exactly what the terms “knocking boots” and “bumping uglies” communicate. So while you’re busy complaining about the term used in a sermon at a church you’ve never been to, the congregation is busy understanding what the scriptures communicate.

63   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 7th, 2007 at 9:28 pm

“To each his own” said the lady as she kissed the cow!

64   Jonathan Frueh    
October 7th, 2007 at 9:38 pm

Hey Tim,

“the congregation is busy understanding what the scriptures communicate”

Or so you assume. Just use the good ole F word and get it out once and for all. Context…..I will have a naked man and a naked women on the stage and they stand next to each other…Mary and Joseph before Christ. Then I will have them have sex on the stage and say …Mary and Joseph after Jesus was born. Any questions? In context! I will have a talk through and visual aids so everyone will make no mistakes on the passage. I understand what the terminology means I grew up in the 90’s. My question is why does he stop there. Why doesn’t he just go all out? Knockin boots…ok.. F word no. Stop the tip toe and say it.

By the way, nice to meet you(no sarcasm intended). I enjoy you and many others on this site.

65   Jonathan Frueh    
October 7th, 2007 at 9:41 pm

I guess Driscoll’s conscience gets the best of him and his tongue won’t say the F word. I guess Prov. 19:1 stops him dead in his tracks.

66   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 7th, 2007 at 9:52 pm

Jon,
Wow.
Tim

67   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 7th, 2007 at 10:11 pm

Jon (Can I call you that?),
Personally, I believe in certain cultures that yeah, you can say that. But even still that isn’t what Driscoll said. As for him being an attention hound, I agree 100% with you. I find him repugnant, and revolting. However, in this case, I think there is much ado about nothing. Tim, seemed to do a good job answering the rest of your questions.

68   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 7th, 2007 at 10:14 pm

Jon,
I just read your last comment. You make some really big jumps in logic there. I’m going with Tim here and pulling out a wow. Since you pulled out Proverbs, may I share my life verse with you?

She is like a loving doe, a graceful deer.
May her breasts always satisfy you. (emphasis mine)
May you always be captured by her love.

Proverbs 5:19
God’s not against us talking about sex and even being explicit. Personally, I think people would have been angry if Driscoll had used this terminology. Called him a prurient pastor or something. At best all you can say is he offended you in your culture.
Now, I’m off to pray with my deer.

69   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 8th, 2007 at 8:38 am

Now, I’m off to pray with my deer.

So you’re feeling better? LOL

70   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 8th, 2007 at 8:45 am

Well, there’s other verses that talk about healing…Actually if you guys still want to pray I’d really appreciate it. I’m kind of in wait mode to hear about a new job and the one I currently have just informed me that they may be changing the pay scale–we already don’t make enough to pay our bills so–any prayers would be appreciated. I still have something of a cough, but I feel a ton better than I did.

71   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 10:31 am

Joe,

I’ll be in prayer for you…

Blessings,
iggy

72   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 8th, 2007 at 10:33 am

When I was a youth pastor, I always told my kids that if the bible was ever to be turned into a good movie, it would have to be at least R-rated. I think (mainly thru bible colleges and seminaries — I have been to both) we tame down the scriptures to suit a congregation that really doesn’t live in the real world.

The other day I did a talk on loving those who are different than us. One of our more “sheltered” ladies in the church came up to me and said “I homeschool my kids so they don’t have to hear words like ‘gay’ or ‘homosexual’” I think most of Christianity is “home schooled” so they don’t have to hear the reality of the scriptures or the reality of life.

David had crazy bathtub sex with Bathsheba

Apparently the Israelites needed laws about not sleeping with animals to keep them from doing such.

A man in Corinth is sleeping with him mother (gross)

I am really surprised at the language that people have found to make the bible G rated.

73   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 10:56 am

Nathan – you crack me up, really. All those things you metioned are correct and can be communicated even in a semi-grahic way. But crazy bathtub sex to me would be an over-colloquial way of describing it and so the wording removes some of the serious nature of the offense.

And many times, in my opinion, such terminology trivializes some Biblical truth. And I am one who sold drugs to high school children, was as promiscuous as could be imagined, and was in the process of planning to rob a bank in New Jersey and kill the guard as we went in, so I am no prude.

And as many who would appreciate or relate to some street terminology, there are as many who might be offended. I do not mind much of it but Driscoll crosses the line…on purpose I believe.

74   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 8th, 2007 at 11:28 am

But crazy bathtub sex to me would be an over-colloquial way of describing it and so the wording removes some of the serious nature of the offense.

I would guess the euphemisms you’d propose as replacement would sterilize it and as a result minimize what was going on.

75   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 8th, 2007 at 11:55 am

I do not mind much of it but Driscoll crosses the line…on purpose I believe.

I listened multiple times to Driscolls address to the Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary. In the near future I will be blogging about this but for now I would like to ask the following.

Throughout his speech at SBTS he uses euphinisms that some would consider coarse. For instance…

“Deep Shift…someone inadvertantly added an F”
“booty call or friends with benefits”
“Bell proposes the Mary was a lying whore”

Throughout the blogosphere people applauded Marks “expose” of the Emergent movement. Nary a word was mentioned about his “colloquial euphinisms”. Now in one week we have debated throughout 74 comments about his appropiateness from a different speech/sermon (which by the way nobody, including Camp, has referenced anywhere).

Driscoll in his speech/sermon at SBTS calls into question Bell’s reverence for Jesus when Bell proposes the question of “What if Jesus had been born to Larry?”

Which leads me to some possible conclusions.

1) The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
2) We overlook inconsitencies in when we largely agree with what a person says.
3) We are all pushing our own agendas and anything that bolsters our case, whether accurate or not, we will trot out in defense of our position.
4) We all have planks in our eyes.
5) Sinners are often irrational and focus on all the wrong stuff.

There maybe more and some of these are similar but I will leave it up to you to decide.

76   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 12:04 pm

chris – I do not endorse Driscoll or his methods and was clear about his crassness even in the Southeastern speech. He did make some extremely serious accusations which if true should be looked at if there is anytghing resembling accountability within Christianity.

In the end, it is just words and the energy to confront, combined with the vulnerability that comes with correcting one from your own side of the tracks, probably is not available today. One man’s plank is another man’s method.

77   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 12:11 pm

chris,

To me, it is more and more about the ones who are “me” centered in theology have “itching ears” hear only what they want.

I can make my own list which would be much like your own there… This list could go on and on… and yet as I listen to both sides I am more and more convinced that if we do not stop and start to focus on Jesus again, we will only devour ourselves… This is to both sides.

Galatians 5:14-16
The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other. So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature.

I do not care to partake in destroying others…

Be Blessed,
iggy

78   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 8th, 2007 at 12:32 pm

I agree. John 11:35

(I’m working on being less combative this week; also documenting/supporting my “arguments” from Scripture.)

79   nc    
October 8th, 2007 at 12:44 pm

Wow…did you guys see that CRN.info is now a “hate site” according to CRN.com?!?!

Congratulations.

80   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 8th, 2007 at 1:01 pm

It’d be easier to figure out what their problem is with what Nathan wrote if they actually included some commentary. As it is I’m left thinking that they’re denying what teh Bible actually records as history.

81   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 6:47 pm

When Driscoll describes the birth of our Lord Jesus as some smut filled story..he better lay low….his jaw will be eating dirt when Yeshua comes in ALL HIS GLORY….the brazen blasphemy of today’s “pastors” stuns me!! They are crass and crude and no different than the gay leather men who mock tha last supper with their whips and chains. For the sake of the elect God has not destroyed America. And the division between the wheat and tares is becoming more and more obvious. They tares are foaming at the mouth with more rank and the wheat are entering into the secret place more and coming out of the apostate church in America. As Halo 3 trains the deceived and duped sheep to kill the true believers, WE ARE READY TO GO…….Come Lord Jesus for your true Bride and not the whore!!

82   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 7:17 pm

Thank you, Tamela. You give a pretty good picture of what a modern Essene movement might look like, and the target demographic of CR?N…

It’s just too bad it has nothing to do with what Jesus taught when he was here…

83   Nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 8th, 2007 at 7:19 pm

Tamela,
wow.

wow.

(picks up jaw) wow.

you are the reason I am not a Calvinist.

84   Nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 8th, 2007 at 7:20 pm

“As Halo 3 trains the deceived and duped sheep to kill the true believers, WE ARE READY TO GO”

what?!?!?

85   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 7:21 pm

Nathan,

I wouldn’t blame the display on Calvin – it’s closer to a “Left Behind” Westboro Baptist Church…

86   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 7:24 pm

As Halo 3 trains the deceived and duped sheep to kill the true believers, WE ARE READY TO GO

Maybe we should introduce Tamara to Tim Bell and the JFK assassination stuff from a couple of weeks back – or the guy trying to convince us of the existance of the North American Highway and the New World Order a few months ago…

A match made in heaven?

87   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 7:26 pm

Tamela – does that come with a study guide?

88   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 8th, 2007 at 7:30 pm

Tamela,
What amazes me is how any Christians have any credibility with uncritical, unthinking Christians like you running around. You seem to have a terminal case of diarrhea of the mouth.

First, Driscoll didn’t take a low view of Christ’s birth. He was describing the view of Mary’s contemporaries would have had of Christ’s birth. BTW, viewing Christ’s birth as anything but humble destroys quite a bit of the symbolism God intended, as well as misunderstands the tone of Jesus’ ministry and purpose.

Secondly, your unthinking paranoid fantasies concerning Halo 3 not only disgraces Christ, but also disgraces the brain he gave you, and makes it very difficult for everyone who listens to you and identifies you as a Christian to take seriously any other Christian they run into.

89   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 7:44 pm

Isn’t halo 3 a video game?

90   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 8th, 2007 at 7:56 pm

Isn’t halo 3 a video game?

The most evil video game ever, according to some.

91   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 8th, 2007 at 8:17 pm

Why do I have a feeling Tamela isn’t even real? That was really something, right there. Driscoll better hide out?

92   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 9:18 pm

LOL…see you all do not even think the NAFTA superhighway is REAL……………..LOL…..I mean DOUBLE GUT BUSTING LOL……..get your heads out of the brainswashing killing machine games and see the REAL WORLD…..you bring shame to the Lord by not being able to see the signs right in front of your faces…..even VISA says we’ll be a CASHLESS society by 2012…….h e l l o……cashless…as in book of Revelation….cashless as in anti-christ…..as in choose whom you will serve. Yeah baby…I’m as real as they get…..former Top 4- jockette, lived all over America…now an intecessor mom o’ twins. Uh…I think the paranoid fantasies come out in people like the V-Tech killer….oops….what did he watch and put into his skull….hmmmmmmm

93   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 9:25 pm

I suppose it’s just an accident that in order to buy and sell in Ephesus (that would be the same Ephesus listed as one of the Seven Churches to whom the book of Revelation was written) during the reign of Domitian, in order to buy or sell in the marketplace (agora), one had to burn incense to Caesar and declare him lord, receiving his mark on your hand or upon the goods you wished to sell.

Pure coincidence. So much so that we’re trying to fit circumstances today into prophecy fulfilled during the time of the people it was written to…

94   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 9:28 pm

I’ve been cashless many times in my life.

95   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 8th, 2007 at 9:29 pm

Wow! What to say?

I guess we could go into the actual meaning of the “mark of the beast”…Nah nevermind. I’m just gonna make my aluminum foil hat and play Halo 3.

96   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 8th, 2007 at 9:30 pm

I’ve been cashless many times in my life.

Now that’s funny.

97   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 9:33 pm

Tamera – you should teach a new believer’s class.

98   nc    
October 8th, 2007 at 9:37 pm

ummmm….

how the hell did halo3 come into this?

99   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 9:40 pm

“I’m just gonna make my aluminum foil hat and play Halo 3.”

LOL twice. Space helmet on O Captain Video!!

100   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 9:49 pm

I don’t really have anything to say I just want to be number 100 on the comments on this thread.

be blessed,
iggy

101   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 8th, 2007 at 10:07 pm

Ok… joke’s over. Who is Tamela?

102   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 10:09 pm

Chris you follow the bell man well. I heard his REVISED version of Revelation….LOL…again…these emergents just REWRITE what God has said with a twist here and a tweak there…so if EPHESUS was where the Book of Revelation went down….WHERE IS THE RETURNED RESURRECTED LIVING CHRIST SITTING ON THE THRONE OF KING DAVID? I mean…that is what happens when the anti-christ and the mark and the tribulation….blah…blah…all wraps up……..the BOTTOM LINE….CHRIST REIGNS ON EARTH (bodily, where we can SEE Him…because all nations will send delegates to come and worship Him!!)

Please tell me where that is happening today…especially since the Temple Mount over in Israel is being fought over right now. Jesus will be sitting on the throne of King David..in the Temple…..if Ephesus is your point that “revelation already happened so we don’t need to look for it to happen now….a la the Rob Bell version…” WHERE IS JESUS?

and dont’ see we are Jesus…His hands and feet as we feed the poor….think critically…it doesn’t make sense if Ephesus fulfilled the mark of the beast.

103   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 10:17 pm

I am a 45 year old mother of twins….a former Top 40 disc-jockey..now a mom trying to raise pure sons in “babylon..ie America”….or Sodom and Gomorrah, if you prefere. I have a husband of 13 years and I’m an intecessor. I also seem to have a prophet-type call because when I first heard the Lord’s voice He led me to John 1;19….all about John the Bap and the voice of one….and like here….I’m speaking out…..

so to put it bluntly….I am a nobody, nathan…but I walk with God.

104   Jonathan Frueh    
October 8th, 2007 at 10:19 pm

I am not a calvinist or a video gamer to boot, but I can see why Tamera is so upset. We must give reference to the wholesome words of the scriptures. Tamera, I see your point and stand with you about how horrible that pulpit has become. As for when Christ comes, I will stand there in amazement and then kneel in humble adoration before our living God. Oh yes, many of the pastors of this generation will stand before the risen Christ and screem what have we done as they watch the sword of the Lord sweep through like never before! They will not scream because they weren’t calvinist and they won’t scream because they were emergents…they will scream because they fooled with the word of God…remember God honors his word above his name! Revival anyone?

105   Jonathan Frueh    
October 8th, 2007 at 10:22 pm

but I walk with God…yes let’s!

106   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 10:28 pm

And my whole point about Halo 3 is that I was SHOCKED to learn that churches are having this garbage in their youth groups…..I mean we’ve got enough violence, ok…NOW we have to have it in the House of the Lord…>WAKE UP…….it’s mind-numbing, brainwashing, killing inducing garbage from satan….or does that sound a little too BOLD…..

“whiney voice”…but “Oh …they’re blwoing away the heretics…..”…….

YEAH RIGHT…….as evil is called good and good is called evil, brainwashed gamers may snap and take their orders from lucifer to “wipe out a few fundies”….Those would be the ones who DO NOT adhere to Rob Bell’s reimagined, reinvented Jesus…or any other pastors who take the scriptures and mock them. If you think I’m kidding…..STOP……….THINK………………..

garbage in…..garbage out….the game is killing and rated M and has bad language in it….

You think as a good mom I’m gonna let my sons go to a youth group with this around? THINK AGAIN

107   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 10:35 pm

Thanks Jonathan….BTW.. my name is Tam-e-la…but no biggie…just call me nobody…LOL…

I weep and pray alot for revival and repentence to sweep America. I’m not really upset…just boldly calling out to the body of Christ.

108   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 8th, 2007 at 10:37 pm

Did she break out the NAFTA superhighway? Tamela, here’s what I think. You are a liar. I don’t believe you that you were a disc jockey or anything else. Now, I’m off to watch the last few outs of my team.

109   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 10:37 pm

Chris you follow the bell man well. I heard his REVISED version of Revelation

Hmmmm. Haven’t heard the “buying and selling” thing from Bell before. I picked that up while AT Ephesus last year at a dig site there with a group from Hope College & Western Theological Seminary (a Reformed Calvinist college, to boot…)

Trying to force-fit prophecy into current events is irresponsible at best and heretical, at worst.

110   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 11:08 pm

still waiting to get that answer about WHERE IS JESUS….what is heretical is implying that EPHESUS was where the “mark of the beast” from the Book of Revelation happened. That is what Rob Bell does. And it is false. Current events are rapidly pointing to the return of Jesus (of the Holy scriptures..not a reinvented one)…and as we hurtle closer…..Damascus (such an old ancient city that NEVER HAS become a heap of rubble..according to scripture) most likely WILL BE in the very near future as Syria and Israel are debating whether Israel actually did air strikes there or not…

The prophecies of the Bible in one hand…today’s headlines in the other…quite exciting!!

So….class……we can conclude that the Book of Revelation with a soon coming cashless society…actually WILL BE happening in our generation….do not take the mark….(or TATTOO, for those who like the sleeves)…..Domitian had his time……but alas….ALL the prophecies must come to pass before the Lord Yeshua returns… so keep an eye on Damascus and Jerusalem…as even now they conspire to divide it…..LOOK OUT WORLD…when that happens….talk about trying to THWART Yahweh’s plan….!! who do we think we are? God wins….satan loses…YEAH GOD!!

111   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 8th, 2007 at 11:13 pm

I suppose it is coincidence that this person’s syntax and all cap letter fetish is the same as TJ’s? If she was such a famous DJ, I want proof. Until then, her posts are just rubbish

112   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 11:25 pm

update for Joe martino who thinks I’m a liar:
I’m not……..

K-she 95 research director St. Louis
KWK overnight jock/ then middays St. Louis
WKSS Hartfort. CT night jock
KWSS San Jose, CA night jock
WAVA, on Lee highway In Virginia…part of the DC beltway…now a CHristian talker I believe…..(YEAH GOD)
This was my best job ever….I played all the Top 40 hits….(Michale Jackson …BAD….era….urban leaning Top 40 hits…Taylor Dayne….Madonna…George Michael)…..kinda cool….we had a sports guy in DC named George Michael also….
as for WAVA…I nailed the post EVERY TIME….it was a blast to rap and then shut up right before the vocals came in…..
also worked in Baltimore….(just part-time on weekends)

Waco, TX and Daytona Beach…this is where God REALLY started getting ahold of me…after I got off work I would go down to the board walk and hang out….watch people…drink, etc…and one night I saw this youth group and this kid was carrying a HUGE CROSS up and down the boardwalk….like Paul…..(as Stephen was giving it to the religious leaders) I hid in the shadows….but I watched…and my backslidden, prodigal girl heart was deeply moved by the CONVICTION that that young man had….to be out there on the board walk…party freak zone…CARRYING HIS CROSS……..I thought…WHAT GUTS…..WHAT COURAGE……you don’t DO THIS….unless you’re RADICAL FOR CHRIST…….it was a deeply planted seed….but I went on my merry way….sinning and spinning (the hits)…..

Finally , at a Van Halen concert, in St. Louis…the F.or U.nlawful C.arnal K.nowledge Tour…..(take the first letter of each word and you’ll know what was printed on the T-shirts!!) I had a vision of hell…I mean…everyone staretd walking in SLOOOO MOOOOTION…….slo-mo…..and the ground opened up and they all started sliding in…I freaked out…cause I KNEW i was headed to hell too. That was my night with God… and I have neevr looked back……14 years later….I’m still a BLOWTORCH for Jesus……

and just yesterday…it was the LIFE CHAIN….stood out on the street with my hubby and TWINS and a HUGE 6 foot cross….I held it….and took a stand for LIFE and for THE LORD!!

Hallelujah!!! I’m a JESUS RADICAL!!!!! I love HIM!!!

sorry Joe….no lying here!!

113   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 11:27 pm

Actually after I listened to the talk by Bell on Revelation and looked up the historical references it all was accurate and fit well into the Book of Revelation.

Now what I have noticed is the over spiritualization of revelation… and that many forsake that as a historical document can be one of the most powerful books if understood. It can show that the bible is very accurate. To read it “literally” is a stretch as it is left open to too many interpretations and not all can be right. To stay on the historical and proven is safest. I do see that there is some possibility that there is the “Near/Far” aspect to all prophecy. Meaning that some of the things are still yet to come though already have taken place around 70 AD.

Yet, I say that with caution as I see that no one has any real idea. Just as it was “clear” to us that Jesus was fullfilling the exact date that Daniel gave when YHWH would return to Jerusalem… and did so not as the King returning on a white horse of victory as they believed, but as a defeated King who is aloud to return to his country… on a donkey.

Jesus returned on the date Daniel stated, yet not as expected… so the prophecy was ignored until after the Resurrection.

I see that the Book of the Revelation is not about the future, but is about just as it states… Revelation 1:1.

The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.

It is about Jesus and that He is Lord in spite of all the tribulation that might come on us a beleivers. It is the removing of the veil that me might see behind it and see Jesus is in power even when Domitian thinks he is.

And as the book was written somewhere from 60 to 96 AD… i have no issue with the later date as i see that John states about Jesus: “who was, and is, and is to come.”

In that I see that even at the later date John is revealing what was, what is and what will come all at the same time. I think to deny that it was fulfilled at 70AD though negates the prophecy of Jesus as he prophesied that the Temple would be destroyed. So we must be careful not to be so against the preterist view.

Be Blessed,
iggy

114   Tamela    
October 8th, 2007 at 11:30 pm

Yes..I am known as T.J. / Tamela Jean…….or…(as my Dad used to call me…T.J. the D.J.)

anyway Joe….NAFTA highway is real….over in Kansas City….other side of the state…(i’m in St. Louis) they are building a HUGE HUB as a check-in station….bye bye USA…..
hello merger….Canada/America/Mexico

115   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 8th, 2007 at 11:37 pm

How did Rob Bell become the creator and leading advocate of amillennialism?

116   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 8th, 2007 at 11:54 pm

Tim,

I guess it just something that was emerging that way somehow… LOL!

Really amillennialism is held by most Christians outside the USA… the majority that believe otherwise is mainly in America.

I have been told a time or two i was not saved for “looking” at midtrib… LOL!

As if that was one of the things we must believe to be saved.

Be Blessed,
iggy

117   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:03 am

Tamela – you are a little over the top but that was a great testimony. And holding the cross – I do not get involved in causes but I hold a 7′ cross sometimes at a busy intersection on Friday rush hour where there is a long, three lane turn highway and thousands of cars have to wait at the light and see my sign that says:

“Prepare Now
I am Coming
- Jesus -”

Hey TJ – I hope you avoid coffee! Ha! Forget about all that useless arguing over Revelation, Jesus is coming back – once for His church – and once for justice. That is the message, PREPARE!

118   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 7:14 am

Tim: And you thought I was out there?! Man!

If someone could throw in a comment or two about the Shroud of Turin, I think this thread will have just about covered everything!!

119   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 7:17 am

Wonderful. I have friends that are lifelong residents of Hartford. K-she was your DJ name? When was that?

120   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 9th, 2007 at 7:25 am

To all my brethren in the great state of Michigan…WHEN ARE WE GOING TO GET TOGETHER!

I’m starting at Western Sem in January but I would love to get together before then.

Maybe Iggy could drive in from Montana!

121   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:38 am

Can I bring my Halo 3 and foil hats as we discuss the JFK assassination and whether Jesus image was really left behind on the shroud of Turin?

But, I will not bring any beer because i do no want my brother to stumble and you guys better hide all your diplomas from them cemeteries you attended and stuff.

OK, I have been up all night working and may be a bit punchy…

Love you all! LOL!
Really
Blessigns,
iggy

122   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 7:47 am

Chris,
I’ll be out and about today. email me and we can get coffee. You can buy and I’ll tell you my story. It will be wonderful. We can chat about the NAFTA Highway, how Two Penny Jenny is really a spy from the USSR. and all sorts of good stuff.

123   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:55 am

Chris you follow the bell man well. I heard his REVISED version of Revelation….LOL…again…these emergents just REWRITE what God has said with a twist here and a tweak there…

Actually, TJ, I got none (zip, zero, nada) of this from Bell, most of it between 1991 and 1996 – several years before “emergent” even existed. This has nothing to do with “emergence” or “non-emergence” and everything to do with the responsible reading of scripture, which – in many cases – matches well with historical events, while still leaving some things to yet occur.

If you want a “rewrite”, then it is actually the interpretation you are espousing – dispensationalism – developed by Darby in the mid-1800’s. To accept it as a valid eschatology, you have to believe that Daniel’s 70 weeks were somehow suspended between the 69th and 70th week – or that his prophecy was invalid. Additionally, you have to assume that the letter written to the Seven Churches had no real message for them in their own time, and that Paul and Jesus were deceiving their own followers with promises of “within a generation” and “soon”…

Iggy is spot on in terms of amillenialism.

so if EPHESUS was where the Book of Revelation went down….WHERE IS THE RETURNED RESURRECTED LIVING CHRIST SITTING ON THE THRONE OF KING DAVID?

If you’re asking about the rebuilt “third” temple, both Jesus and Paul make it clear that after the helper comes (i.e. the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost), that the Temple is comprised of all believers and that we are the temple of the Holy Spirit. On Pentecost 33 A.D., the spirit of God via the Holy Spirit changed residences, moving from the House (i.e. the Temple) into the disciples.

If you are referring to the final reign of Jesus, you are confusing the parousia with the final judgement, which, indeed, is yet to come.

Please tell me where that is happening today…especially since the Temple Mount over in Israel is being fought over right now. Jesus will be sitting on the throne of King David..in the Temple

But will it be literal or figurative? The “abomination of desolation” has already most likely occurred (though, as Iggy notes, it could be a “near and far” fulfillment – where prophecy is fulfilled twice) when Vespasian sacrificed a pig on the Temple altar and declared himself god.

if Ephesus is your point that “revelation already happened so we don’t need to look for it to happen now….a la the Rob Bell version…” WHERE IS JESUS?

It was not only Ephesus – it was the world of that time. Archaeological digs at Priene, about 100 miles from Ephesus, along with finds in Pergamum, Sardis, Laodicea, Aphrodesia, Heiropolis and other Asia Minor cities confirms the same things – that Caesar worship was instituted during the time of Nero for the purpose of buying and selling, and it was enforced with capital punishment at the arrival of Domitian. All of the ‘tribulation’ prophecies in Revelation perfectly fit what happened to the people to whom John wrote the letter of Revelation, within a generation of its writing. The final coming, judgement and permanent reign of Christ is included there, affirming Old Testament prophecy, which would have given its readers hope to persevere during their time of persecuation.

I’m still trying to figure out what Bell has to do with any of this. I’ve heard him quote some of the same sources I am familiar with, but he’s done absolutely zero original research in this area, and doesn’t claim any special authority or ‘new’ teaching about eschatology.

Your treatment of eschatology and attempts to tie it to modern events – along with wacky conspiracy theories like the NAFTA superhighway – are basic components of Irresponsible Christianity 101, and do nothing to further the kingdom.

124   Tim    http://churchvoices.com
October 9th, 2007 at 8:26 am

Your treatment of eschatology and attempts to tie it to modern events – along with wacky conspiracy theories like the NAFTA superhighway – are basic components of Irresponsible Christianity 101, and do nothing to further the kingdom.

QFT.

Not only is it unhelpful in furthering the kingdom, its damaging to the kingdom. It makes all Christians look ridiculous and pulls those espousing it away from more important things.

125   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 8:26 am

Chris L: I’m with you on most everything you said re: the temple, Christ’s return, etc. but I do have a serious question: can you point me to some SOLID imformation re: the NAFTA superhighway?

126   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 8:29 am

What’s “QFT?”

127   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 8:34 am

QFT=Quoted for Truth

128   Shua    
October 9th, 2007 at 8:39 am

Wow.

I just finally got a chance to read through the comments on this one. I’m still a little fuzzy on how we got from Driscoll’s description of some of the circumstances involving Nazareth and Mary’s pregnancy to Revelation and eschatology.

My question on the initial thread – Driscoll – is how big of a deal is it really. I am personally not offended by the things he said, nor do I find the things he said particularly crude. Maybe it’s generational, or upbringing (in some instances location may make a difference, but I’m not exactly in a cutting-edge urban area here). I have a feeling that what we would all consider conservative preaching now would contain some language or euphamisms that would be offensive to people 50, 100, 150, etc., years ago. Vice-versa, preaching from the past (as evidenced by Luther) may contain certain language/euphamisms that were acceptable then but are now considered taboo.

Don’t get me wrong, I have problems with Driscoll – mostly his bravado – but I guess I don’t see a problem with this. I’m sure I will be labeled by some as an emergent heretic who holds a low view of scripture and Jesus for this, but I know that I hold both Scripture and Jesus in high regard, so that label won’t bother me.

On another note: a meeting in MI? Can I come? Maybe sometime when the weather’s nice all the MI or near-MI folk can travel up here to beautiful TC for a face-to-face meet the family sort of get together. I think it could be great.

129   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 8:45 am

Keith,

It’s always nice to find areas of agreement!

As for the superhighway, probably the most “reputable” source (if you consider politicians to be reputable) is this item from Ron Paul (R -TX and currently a R presidential candidate). Additionally, there is this article from human events, which gives it a graphical depiction.

Why is this at all important, you ask? For those constantly on the lookout for the NWO (New World Order), this is step 1 in creating a North American Union to replace the USA, Canada and Mexico.

Probably the most level-headed look is in The Nation, which I normally don’t read, as it leans liberal on a number of issues where I don’t.

130   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 9th, 2007 at 9:04 am

If we want nice weather in MI we better work fast.

131   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 9:05 am

A North American Union?

Who cares? Another earthly worry that only breeds nationalism to the point that some believe God lives in washington.

“Some believed God started America – dum, dum, dum, dum, dum!”

132   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 9:11 am

Joe: Thanks for the definition. I am “acronym impaired.”

Chris L: Honestly, I hadn’t considered the “new world order” tie-in since I’m not Premill. My concern is security of the borders, etc. We’ve (me personally) seen a huge influx of illegals in our area, with some very disturbing results. I’ll take a look at the links you provided.

133   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 9:20 am

“We’ve (me personally) seen a huge influx of illegals in our area”

Reverse missions. The closer they come to you, the greater your responsibility. I’m not sure we’ll have to sacrifice a night at the Outback!

134   Tamela    
October 9th, 2007 at 9:41 am

Hello everyone….sorry for being over the top…..NAFTA Superhighway is real…..also….merging of US/Canada/Mexico is going to happen….plans for the Amero to replace the dollar is in the works too….many do not want to believe it, but if people spent more time researching the NEWS and reading GOD’s WORD rather than all the mindless entertainment, they would be more informed. I have flipped by Jay Leno at night and seen the “man on the street interviews”..it’s pitiful…..MOST PEOPLE do not know who are elected leaders are, what the issues of the day are, what they latest news is, but they can tell you all about Britney SPears and Bradd Pitt….or what the latest X-Box craze is…..

H E L L O….entertained….mind numbed sheep are easily deceived and manipulated. They have NO CLUE America (as we know it) is getting ready for some HUGE CHANGES……

Rick…God did not start America….but He was included in a COVENANT that the PURITAN PILGRIMS made ….they came over to America and it was ALL ABOUT THE LORD AND THE EXPANSION OF HIS KINGDOM. SO when those God-fearing Pilgrims made and signed the MAYFLOWER COMPACT….it was no little ittie bittie day in their life…..it was the same thing in magnitude as Joshua leading Israel around Jericho and conquering it in THE PROMISED LAND…..this land may have been full of Indians…..but THEY HAD NO COVENANT with the LIVING GOD…the Pilgrims DID…and so this “Christian nation” was born from that day…and the Lord takes SERIOUSLY His COVENANTS.

And because of His people in this nation who fear Him…and cry out to Him and walk with Him and worship Him…..We have not fallen….but look around…America is rapidly in the process of falling…..

we will come to a point where the masses of society who have rejected Jesus and His word or MOCKED HIM….(a la crude mouth Driscoll and a whole host of young “church planting” pastors) who continously belittle the POWER AND AUTHORITY of God’s word….will start breaking down….

imagine V-Tech killers going beserk every day….we’re headed there……
we are a VIOLENT NATION, a PORNOGRAPHY NATION, on and on….society beings to fall just like Rome did……

we reject God…go our own way and destroy ourselves…

only NOW….because we have thrown off all restraints, we have enemies….WITHIN OUR NATION…plotting our demise……don’t think that 24 showing the nuked city was “entertainment”….it’s coming…Michael Chertoff says it is…(homeland security guy)…

I just read where in Michigan…sterling heights fliers were found all, over cars…..Christians and Jews….convert to allah or die……

are we REALLY HEADED THERE….? IN AMERICA? COnvert or die by the sword? Fliers today…beheadings tomorrow……deceived sheep will mumble….”oh allah just means God in arabic”…..so they’ll convert to their eternal demise…..GET EDUCATED PEOPLE……

now is not the time to say “who cares”…

gotta go to work

135   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 9:51 am

God only has one covenant and that is with His church, that does not translate into any country for our citizenship is in heaven. God’s covenant with the Pilgrims was part of the whole body of Christ and is absolutely separate from America which has always been a heathen nation like all the rest.

Remember, it wasn’t God who instructed men to kill other men over taxes so God could start a country. We are looking for a country and it isn’t of this world.

136   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 9th, 2007 at 10:10 am

Tamela,
You’ve veered from straight up lunacy into blasphemy. The Mayflower Compact was not a covenant with the living God. God’s covenant is with his people, the church, and was made possible by the work of Christ.

Even if all your lunacy is right, and the US goes away, the dollar goes away and there’s a five million lane highway across the entire continent it doesn’t change a thing. The gospel of Jesus Christ somehow managed to come into existence before the US was around and it will continue afterwards.

The “foul mouth” pastors you decry are doing far more to faithfully preach the gospel than your blasphemous ravings about the US being “God’s nation” and you nut-burger rantings about conspiracy theories.

137   Shua    
October 9th, 2007 at 10:22 am

I’m speechless. Although I often don’t comment for periods of time on this site, I am seldom speechless. I have been, however, rendered without speech.

138   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 10:41 am

I think this might end up being my new favorite thread of all time. We’ve been all over the board. There is truly some priceless quotes in there. I hope TJ (whoever he or she is) stays off her meds every time she (or he) posts here. I mean come on people that is funny stuff.

139   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 9th, 2007 at 11:56 am

Just to take this thread in a whole new direction.

In USA Today there is a story about Melissa Etheridge and her new album. The article opens with this paragraph.

Fred Phelps, the pastor and activist known for his anti-gay statements, might be surprised to learn that he inspired a song on Melissa Etheridge’s new album.
“He shows up at my concerts, him and his family, with these horrible signs,” Etheridge says. “He even showed up at my 20th high school reunion.”

emphasis mine
Found Here

It would be really nice if he was known as the “Pastor who exhibited the grace and forgiveness of Christ and that caused her to leave her life of sin”

140   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 9th, 2007 at 12:04 pm

Not that I want to continue the diatribe of conspiracy theories but the NAFTA Superhighway is not a physical highway (yes it involves highways but only in the aspect of expediting freight). It is a term used to describe “trade routes” to further develop trade agreements between the U.S., Canada, and Mexico.

For more information you can here,

141   NC    
October 9th, 2007 at 12:12 pm

oh, but Chris…if Fred was known for that he would be emergent.

142   Tamela    
October 9th, 2007 at 3:58 pm

oh okay Tim….saying the Mayflower Compact was a covenant that the Pilgrims initiated to spread the gospel of Jesus CHrist into their new “Promised Land”…is blasphemous, but Mark Driscoll equating “knocking boots” about the virgin Mary is wholly acceptable…..hmmmm,….

we’re on different parrallels (as ususal with emergents…the posters at pyromanics are priceless,…..LOL)

so…are any on this blog America haters? I mean, if you are ….you can always move to Saudi Arabia…you won’t even have to take your Bible…because they’ll ARREST YOU if you do……

God also has a covenant with Israel…let’s take a poll and see how many Israel haters we have on board……but BECAUSE He is a GOD of COVENANTS…..Israel and Jerusalem are gonna be on your television screen every night…..the only peace that will come to the Middle East is when Jesus blasts thru the eastern gate….WHOOO HOOO…….and no one can stop him….not Palestinians …not emergents……not
Achminedejab (sp) from Iran….

as for all the good those pastors are doing….for the life of me I was horrified that Perry Noble brought in Ac/DC’s Hell’s Bell’s into the House of the Lord…flashing “ILLUMINATE….ILLUMINATE…..”…more brainwashing….for that is what satan has done with the ILLUMINATI….do some more research…and lay off Halo 3…..

The ILLUMINATI…comes from the angel of light…lucifer….freemasonry…skull and bones…..THINK….how interesting that BUSH ran against KERRY….both skull and bones men….now Bush has just said CHristians and Jews and Muslims all worship the same god…..

H E L L O………………………….H E L L O……………….

no we don’t…at least the Jews have the same God, just have not embraced Yeshua as Messiah……

but there’s Bono at his concerts…..wearing his headband…all the same….all from Abraham….all the same……

B R A I N W A S H I N G
and
MOCKING GOD

going on everywhere and even in our pulpits!

143   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 4:09 pm

Did anyone mention the Bildabergers yet on this thread?

I see it now! David Crowder’s third album was called Illuminate – how could I be so blind? The DCB is in cahoots with the New World Order!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

144   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 4:12 pm

Phil,

If you keep that up, Julie won’t be able to get past the cute pictures to read the words that go with them

;)

145   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 4:20 pm

When Anton Lavey killed JFK from the grassy knoll in 1963, the conspiracy was set. Go ahead and laugh, you are blind. NAFTA has taken the teeth out of the gospel, and unless Dennis Kucinich is elected president next year, we will be over run by Bulgarians who would like nothing more that remove our TVs.

146   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 9th, 2007 at 4:26 pm

they came over to America and it was ALL ABOUT THE LORD AND THE EXPANSION OF HIS KINGDOM. SO when those God-fearing Pilgrims made and signed the MAYFLOWER COMPACT

HAHAHAHA… where the heck do you get this crap from?

And do you base your racist anti-immigrant ideologies on the Bible? Or do you find that in the same “history” sources that claim that those who came over to America did it to “expand the Kingdom.” Of course… I guess it is easier to “expand the kingdom” when you slaughter all of the people in your way.

so…are any on this blog America haters?

America haters? And what does loving America have to do with Christianity?

147   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

America is a set of rules called a country. We should love the Lord with all our hearts and not any country. GOD IS NOT AN AMERICAN!

If anything He’s a Jew.

Dennis Kucinich speaks for me.

148   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 9th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

Hey there Tams,
What do you think Driscoll actually said about the virgin birth? Because I’m pretty sure you’re not terribly clear on it.

149   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

As Halo 3 trains the deceived and duped sheep to kill the true believers, WE ARE READY TO GO

The ILLUMINATI…comes from the angel of light…lucifer….freemasonry…skull and bones…..THINK….how interesting that BUSH ran against KERRY….both skull and bones men

[God] was included in a COVENANT that the PURITAN PILGRIMS made ….they came over to America and it was ALL ABOUT THE LORD AND THE EXPANSION OF HIS KINGDOM. SO when those God-fearing Pilgrims made and signed the MAYFLOWER COMPACT….it was no little ittie bittie day in their life…..it was the same thing in magnitude as Joshua leading Israel around Jericho and conquering it in THE PROMISED LAND…..this land may have been full of Indians…..but THEY HAD NO COVENANT with the LIVING GOD…the Pilgrims DID…and so this “Christian nation” was born from that day…and the Lord takes SERIOUSLY His COVENANTS.

see you all do not even think the NAFTA superhighway is REAL

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

150   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 5:16 pm

Tamela,

H E L L O….entertained….mind numbed sheep are easily deceived and manipulated. They have NO CLUE America (as we know it) is getting ready for some HUGE CHANGES……

It already changed! And it never was “God’s” country, that would mean he rejected His Own Kingdom. We are citizens of God’s Kingdom… at least I am. America is just another of the nations God will judge in the Last Days.

BTW Jew, Muslim and Christian, may worship same god… I know a lot of so called Christians that have replaced Jesus for Bush and Country Truth for Rush Limbaugh and exchanged God’s values for the republican party’s values.

All this to say the focus is Jesus not man… it seems that you are out to judge sin, which was already judged… or do you not beleive the scripture?

2 Cor 5:21.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus became sin and as He died on the Cross in our place so did our sin. We now have the ministry of reconciliation not condemnation or worship of a nation…

It seems as I read you you claim some “special” grace above the only grace that saves us…

Be Blessed,
iggy

151   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 6:31 pm

Does anyone want to tell Tamela that one of the first things the Pilgrims built at Plymouth was a brewery?

152   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 6:35 pm

See Matt, there’s where I disagree with you, the very first things the Pilgrims did upon landing was they went to the bathroom.

Everyone.

153   Tamela    
October 9th, 2007 at 6:47 pm

I’m basically judging the state of the church and the state of the nation…and if we look around both have enough problems currently. And when America falls…….say goodybye to your COMFORT ZONE……oh how painful it will be….buy milk and a loaf of bread or a new game for my X-box……choose wisely…and please disregard the anarchy in the streets………..some won’t choose wisely….they will kill you for that loaf of bread…….see…a nation that rejects God iis flapping out in the breeze on their own with no protection. I’m sure all the illegals have brought much civility to your communities….why….they get to drive with no insurance or licesne….AND they get to rape and kill LEGAL American citizens and our President shoots down any chance that they pay for their crime.l Let me guess…you’re FOR abortion but against the death penalty……..party on dudes…I’m outta here.

154   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 9th, 2007 at 6:54 pm

Tams,
What outrages you more? That illegal immigrants are breaking immigration law, or that many have never heard the gospel? Because it seems like the former.

155   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 6:55 pm

Meds please!

156   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 7:01 pm

Rick: Everybody knows Jesus was an American! Just ask Joseph Smith.

157   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 7:03 pm

As long as we’re on the subject: Does anyone here believe we actually landed on the moon?

158   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:09 pm

I see you’re still on the whole dispensational kick:

anarchy [blah blah blah] they will kill you for that loaf of bread

I assume you’re referring to the prophecies in the Olivet Discourse and the OT. Here’s a link to give you a better perspective on the fulfillment of these in 67-70AD.

As for abortion and the death penalty, I am against abortion in all cases, and I’ve got no problem with the death penalty as long as the OT requirement (two witnesses) is fulfilled – though I would include forensic evidence as a ‘witness’…

159   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:13 pm

Keith,

Of course we haven’t landed on the moon. Otherwise we’d know that there are men living there, and on the sun. Joseph Smith said so…

160   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:18 pm

I am against abortion and the death penalty.

You didn’t expect that did ya?

161   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:18 pm

Keith,

I believe we landed on the moon… but there was no way to film it… so they reconstructed it on a hollywood movie set…

I mean have you seen that “flag” picture that is blowing in the wind… ahhh that’s where the answer is blowing in the wind…

Now, Roswell is when the moon men returned our space junk… I know that Roswell was before the moon launch but we are dealing with the time share thing with the Martians who seem to like to travel and mess with us by mutilating cattle and cats and making designer marks on our cornfields.

Now, if we just all listen to George Noory then we will all be on the same page… ya know cuz we all know it because the Nephilim are coming and are here… They live in Texas and own radio stations that play Michael Jackson songs!

Be Bizarrely blessed!
iggy

162   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 7:20 pm

I knew it!!! And you guys thought he was a quack! 8^)>

163   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 7:22 pm

“Roswell” doesn”t show up on Google Earth. It’s a pigment of your imagination, Iggy.

164   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:35 pm

Keith,

Now you will have find the Philadelphia experiment and talk to Tom Hanks to decode the corn fields so we can find our way back to Atlantis!

Blessings earthling,
iggy

165   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 7:58 pm

Keith,

Did you know that the two “revivalist” that both Ariminians and Calvinists accept are…

Edwards, Whitefield

Yet, it seems that the Calvinists then lose sight of the Holy Spirit and the Arminians seems to go too far into works…

Just thought you might find it interesting…

Blessings,
iggy

166   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 8:25 pm

Iggy: Stay on topic here. We’re talking about aliens (illegal and the ones on the moon), Halo, or whether Rick believes in himself. Don’t start draggin’ the Bible into the discussion.

167   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 8:34 pm

I emphatically believe we did not land on the moon. I saw a special on NGC.

168   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 8:41 pm

I was on the moon a couple of times during 1973-1975. It was great!

169   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 8:46 pm

I do believe the gov’t. had an arsenal under the Murrah building in OK. City and that is why the devastation went strait up. I also believe that there was more than just the guys they got. Seriously on that one.

170   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 8:48 pm

Iggy: Don’t be draggin’ Ungle George’s good name through the mud (Yep, he and I have the same last name!…is that the same as bragging about meeting Andy Stanley?)

171   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 9th, 2007 at 8:50 pm

I met Andy once. Didn’t blog about it though.

172   Tamela    
October 9th, 2007 at 9:22 pm

glGlad you are against abortion Rick ….the innocents may have a chance . but the girls who were raped and strangled with shoelaces by an illegal alien…(who should not have been in our country to begin with) are gone…their parents still grieve. And if Carla Fay Tucker can pay for her crime…there is still time to lead this man to Christ and repentence before he should have to pay for his. But he won’t pay for it now. Because our President is getting people used to (brainwashing them) things being settled in ta WORLD COURT….another reason you can say bye bye US constitution. So illegal boy goes free….2 beautiful girls dead…..I hope you dont’ have any daughters here on this board….I mean….they could be next…..but “who cares” , right? See how goofy the line of thinking is with emergent/liberal speak? The CRIMINALS are protected and the VICTIMS lose …their lives and their families suffer….

But in the upside down world of emergent this makes sense….

Tim….of COURSE I want hispanics to get the gospel….but it’s not a sin to want to preserve your country. GET TO AMERICA LEGALLY…..

173   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 9:37 pm

I have a country but it’s not of this world. And no illegals ever enter!

174   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 9th, 2007 at 9:47 pm

Tamela,
In many ways, some American Christians remind me of the Pharisees of Jesus’ day. Particularly this passage:

John 8:31-33
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”

They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”

Americans are for the most part blessed, but I don’t think it’s because we are “God’s country” or anything. Actually, in some ways are material blessing end up being curses.

It simply comes down to a matter of trust. Do we trust in God or do we trust in the preservation of our country? According to Luke 4:6, Satan has control of all earthly kingdoms to some extent, anyway. Is that something Christians should be worried about preserving?

175   M.G.    
October 9th, 2007 at 10:11 pm

The thing that bugs me about immigration is that white Americans talk as if they wouldn’t do the same thing if they were in the position of Mexicans.

Tamela, do you honestly believe that if you’re family were suffering in Mexico, you wouldn’t do anything to provide a better life for them, even if that meant entering the United States illegally?

Remittances to Mexico from immigrants in the United States constitute the third largest monetary source for Mexico’s GDP, eclipsing even tourism. That provides hope for millions of Mexicans. Do immigrants commit crimes in the United States? Yes. And yet, wouldn’t they commit crimes anywhere?

Are American lives more important than Mexican?

Do we really think we’re better than them because we were born here?

176   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 9th, 2007 at 10:42 pm

Tams,
The enforcement of the US laws are not my concern beyond what is expected of a citizen (testifying at trials, obeying laws, etc). However, tending to the kingdom is my obsession. It goes beyond the average effort of duty into the passion of a mission.

It seems, based on the volume and tone of your writing that you’re far more concerned with the state of the US than you are with the state of the kingdom.

177   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 9th, 2007 at 10:51 pm

176 comments? That’s rediculous. Has anyone commented on Ingrid’s post on this? She said this:

“I had an aged English teacher in high school, the wife of a veteran pastor. This dear godly lady used to say in Bible class that you could tell how someone viewed God just by the way they said His name.”

1. She says we have weird ways of interpreting a person’s theology

2. Where exactly did Driscoll say anything about Jesus besides the hard cold facts?

178   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 9th, 2007 at 11:46 pm

Nathan,

I posted about that Steve Camp lauds over Martin Luther who used the “S” word all the time… Mark never has stated that publicly as I know! Yet, Mark is dragged through he mud by putting his quote against Calvin who was not even talking about the same things…. Steve missed the boat and is a hypocrite is this post…

Be Blessed,
iggy

179   David Frueh    
October 10th, 2007 at 8:27 am

Luke 6:27-31
Love for Enemies ‘But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also; and from anyone who takes away your coat do not withhold even your shirt. Give to everyone who begs from you; and if anyone takes away your goods, do not ask for them again. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

I am Rick Fruehs youngest son please don’t hold that against me I’m much smarter than him (just kidding)

Well I guess whenever Jesus said that if someone hits you to turn and offer the other cheek what he really meant was if someone hurts you throw the rotten Mexican in jail forget about witnessing and trying to convert people we want justice hmmmm I remember a verse vengeance is mine said the Lord … I guess we need to help God out by seeking earthly justice I had a teacher once who we were on this topic about illegal immigrants and he said “just the other night I wanted to go to outback and I couldn’t cause of what the illegal immigrants have done to this country and I don’t even have enough money now” me and my dad had a good laugh about that one especially coming from a man who is driving a Mercedes. I went on a mission trip to Brazil a couple years back and after seeing all the people who were destitute I remember coming home and saying anyone who drives a car over 30K is a sinner… now lol I know that’s absolutely false and mostly emotion of a 15 yr old talking and it was a couple years ago lol ( I don’t want people to think this is a kid talking who got on daddies computer ha-ha even though I think at 15 I had more insight than my daddy… again just kidding) but as Christian “Americans” ( if there is such a thing) we look way too much for the worldly vision of me me me what can I get and if someone wrongs me than we take them to court and try get worldly justice but what my dad said once was they are not saved what do we expect them to do they are lost in there sin remember when you were not saved I do not expect America to have revival because guess what they are not saved they cannot now the church that happens to live in America can have revival ( and needs it) but anyways don’t go too hard on me this is my first time and btw I’m a brainwashed video gamer but my dad allows it so if you ever see me on the news shooting up a school you know who to go after lol

180   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 8:48 am

This thread is becoming a Frueh-for-all… ;)

How many Frueh sons are there?

Seriously, though, I think I understand where you’re coming from. While I don’t think that being a Christian and being an American are necessarily incompatible (it’s understanding the order of allegiance that is important), I think that the conservative branch of the church (to which I belong) sometimes blurs this line.

In America, we are blessed in many ways just by living here. As such, we have a greater responsibility to pass along these blessings (think of the Parable of the Talents). Where we get into trouble is when we receive blessings from God and decide to tear down our old barns and build bigger ones…

181   Joe Martino    http://www.joemartino.name
October 10th, 2007 at 8:48 am

This has to be one of the greatest threads we’ve ever had here. We’ve been called obtuse, arrogant, brain-washed, ready to shoot up a school. We’ve covered almost every conspiracy out there. We’ve argued, debated and laughed. I’m just waiting for Jim Valvano to post.

182   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 8:57 am

Joe,

What’s all this I hear about JoPa being involved in a road-rage incident last week? Truth or conspiracy?

183   Joe Martino    http://www.joemartino.name
October 10th, 2007 at 9:25 am

Have you seen his QB play? It’s probably true

184   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 10th, 2007 at 9:43 am

Hey did you guys ever read that book series “Left Behind” excellent theology in those…

Seriously though can we get to 200. Tamela what if I told you that “Skull and Crossbones”, Illumaniti, and FreeMasons are not related at all? Unless of course you believe Nicholas Cage.

185   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 10:20 am

This is the dad who spawned those two sons, since I saw Chris and Tim got on fatherhood let me offer some perspectice for all you guys that have kids.

Let them into the conversation, let them say goofy things without mocking them, let them learn things that are not always regurgitated throught you, in essence let them grow in Christ.

Jon is 27 and David is 18 and I am proud of them both. My daughter also reads the blog she is 26 and the mother of mt two grandsons and I’m proud of her. It is wonderful to have three grown children still seeking Christ and still active in the discourse. Listen carefully to what children say about spiritual things, we just might learn something about ourselves.

186   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 10th, 2007 at 11:38 am

All right people we need to FOCUS! We’re almost to 200. Where’s TJ when you need him or her?

187   Jonathan Frueh    
October 10th, 2007 at 1:51 pm

Immigration…Let them all come over here! Hey, the mission field comes to us!
There is one concept I will never buy into and that is the concept of “Country Preservation.” What the heck is that? Can we, as the body of believers, once and for all get from behind the blinding mask of democracy and realize all we are and all we should ever want to be is a born again beliver in Jesus Christ? Oh, how we want to hold on to anything carnal(america) so that we might see it before our human eyes. Let “them” all come over! Listen to us…them…immigrants…foreigners…we treat them as a load of cattle. Jesus died for them just as much as he died for you and me. Come over here legally…what kind horrible self righteous thing to say. Maybe if Christians would open their homes and bring them in the love of Jesus Christ would be shown and people be won for the Lord by our obedeince to give a cup of cold water in Jesus name. These are people that have no hope and are scraping, crawling, and desperately searching for hope in this disgusting world. They are searching for something to hold fast to! We have the only one, Christ Jesus, that is worth holding on to!
One of the greatest sayings I ever heard from a man was this…”I pledge allegiance to the flag of the U.S….wait a minute! I will never pledge my allegiance to anything or anybody other than to my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!”

MG- If they are non believers they have nothing but hopelessness and despair and thats why they want to come over here. If they are believers who live in Mexico, tell them to stay there so they will not have the black vail of hedonism cover their eyes as so many Christians have allowed over theirs. Remember what happened to Elimelech?

May Jesus Christ have all the preeminence!

188   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 10th, 2007 at 2:42 pm

wow…

The CRIMINALS are protected and the VICTIMS lose …their lives and their families suffer….

Right… because killing somebody will bring the victim back? Not to be crass, but the victim already lost. And the family already suffered the loss, and will always suffer the loss. But killing to perpetrator will do NOTHING to overcome that loss.

Tim….of COURSE I want hispanics to get the gospel….but it’s not a sin to want to preserve your country.

It is when you place preservation of country over expansion of the kingdom. It is when you use racist rhetoric to defend your patriotism.

And how is keeping “hispanics” out of this country “preserving” it?

You keep bringing up one example of a person here illegally who raped and killed a woman, and how everything would be fine and dandy if you killed the person. But you do know that there are many more “legals” on death row than “illegals,” right?

Never try to create an argument out of an exception. It sure doesn’t make you look smarter.

189   nc    
October 10th, 2007 at 2:56 pm

nationalism=SIN

190   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 3:08 pm

“nationalism = SIN”

nc – you have spoken the truth.

I do not pledge allegience, I do not vote, and I do not participate in any way concerning the country that I live in. I also and not unkind or put a yoke on othet believers, and I do reject the Phelps-like tirades about America.

I certainly believe our embracement of any nation compromises our relationship with Christ. I am in the minority, I know, but I humbly feel very strongly about it. I openly prophesy that Hilary Clinton will be elected president next year, and if she does many immoral things like abortion, gay sex, racism, violence, and others will begin to happen in America.

Oh yea, they already exist!

191   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 10th, 2007 at 3:15 pm

if she does many immoral things like abortion, gay sex, racism, violence, and others will begin to happen in America.

Ummm… all of those things would be because Hillary is in office?

Lets see… abortion already happens. Gay sex already happens. Racism already exists. Violence already exists. Other moral things already exist.

Yet somehow people will blame these things on Hillary.

192   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 3:25 pm

dave – see my last line.

“Oh yea, they already exist!”

See, you had to read one more line and we agree! Thanks.

193   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 10th, 2007 at 4:11 pm

“Oh yea, they already exist!”

Wow… completely missed that. Sorry…

194   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 10th, 2007 at 7:21 pm

Rick: You stated :

I do not pledge allegience, I do not vote, and I do not participate in any way concerning the country that I live in.

Could you expound upon this statement? If you prefer to do so more privately, my email address is keithwhitfield [at] cox [dot] net.

Just curious.

195   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 7:28 pm

In participate I meant politically. Is that what you are asking?

196   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 10th, 2007 at 7:51 pm

Specifically, are you stating any of the followin?:
– You do not (for example) stand and recite the Pledge of Allegience
– You do not stand quietly and/or at attention when the National Anthem is played/sung, etc.
– You do not cast a ballot in any type of government sanction election, i.e. school bond issue, sales tax referendum, presidential election, etc.
– Additionally, would you serve in the U.S. Military if called upon to do so?

197   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 10th, 2007 at 7:54 pm

Keith,
Those are some great questions, I will eagerly await Rick’s answers.

198   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 8:00 pm

– You do not (for example) stand and recite the Pledge of Allegience (I stand but do not pledge)
– You do not stand quietly and/or at attention when the National Anthem is played/sung, etc. (yes)
– You do not cast a ballot in any type of government sanction election, i.e. school bond issue, sales tax referendum, presidential election, etc. (no)
– Additionally, would you serve in the U.S. Military if called upon to do so? (I am too old but that is a question I am still unsure about)

As I said before I do not ever make a specticle, but I still hold to those views and respect others who don’t.

199   Tamela    
October 10th, 2007 at 8:05 pm

FFFor Joe martino….I am a woman…most moms are …ha ha

FFFor Chris…..all 3 year of your groups are related—by satan

google them individaully and find the connecting link…wickedness in high places.

For david frueh….good insight on worldy American Christians…anyone driving a car over 30K should be ASHAMED….we drive 2 used vehicles….rent our home…have no no cable, (or direct dish..just basic TV with an antenna)….no home theatre system or plasma Tv…no cell phones even….. we do have a computer obvioiusly, but it’s our our only “biggie” hot tix item! LOL

another school killler….loner we know…but don’t know if he was like the columbine DOOM killer game guys…this happens EVERY october….school killers…check last year…my take…lotsa wicked spiritual activity : billions of muslims praying to satan…(allah) for ramadan…wiccans and satanists gearing up for their high holy day…howl at the moon, dance naked and have some sacrifices…..so OF COURSE we’re gonna have brainwashed kids SNAP and take a some innocents in in our high schools….if you’re not under the blood of CHrist…you’re prime pickins for some demonic activity.

don’t call me crazy….i KNEW this was gonna happen and when i heard it on the news….thought…yep….it’s october….devil freaks going wild again

200   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 8:13 pm

Keith,

I will answer these for the first time publicly…

*Specifically, are you stating any of the followin?:
– You do not (for example) stand and recite the Pledge of Allegience

I have found it harder and harder to pledge to a kingdom of THIS WORLD as I learn more and more about God’ Kingdom. In a way I have found that I feel as if I am being disloyal to God’s Kingdom by “pledging allegiance” to another, Kingdom, flag or whatever.

– You do not stand quietly and/or at attention when the National Anthem is played/sung, etc.

I am respectful and will be quite. I am not opposed to America… but as stated I am not of this world and now of God’s Kingdom… I see it as now and to come unlike John MacArthur who only sees it as future.

– You do not cast a ballot in any type of government sanction election, i.e. school bond issue, sales tax referendum, presidential election, etc.

If so moved as a citizen of the USA I do vote, yet more and more I see that voting is more between the lesser of the two evils… which then is still voting for evil… so I find my self less and less inclined to be political unless I see injustice and am moved to have it addressed.

– Additionally, would you serve in the U.S. Military if called upon to do so?

IF I was called (I am too old) I would request to be a chaplain…or do some sort of support of the troops that way. I actually do not see that I would be accepted for many other reason such as being diabetic… so it is not really relevant.

Now, if a foreign country attacked the US and I had to defend myself and family I would. I would not go out to “war” against them but would defend if needed.

be Blessed,
iggy

201   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 10th, 2007 at 8:13 pm

OH BTW I was number 200!
ig

202   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 10th, 2007 at 8:29 pm

Rick: You’re not a secret JW or something are ya?! 8^)>

203   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 10th, 2007 at 8:30 pm

BTW, I love to sing the National Anthem…especially the high notes!

204   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 10th, 2007 at 10:19 pm

I will also answer…

– You do not (for example) stand and recite the Pledge of Allegience

No… I find pledging allegiance to a flag (i.e. a nation) to be the antithesis of pledging allegiance to the kingdom of God. The two are rarely compatible.

– You do not stand quietly and/or at attention when the National Anthem is played/sung, etc.

I stand… I definitely don’t sing. I stand because it isn’t worth causing problems. I don’t stand out of reverence.

– You do not cast a ballot in any type of government sanction election, i.e. school bond issue, sales tax referendum, presidential election, etc.

I do vote. While I often feel as Iggy does (lesser of two evils), I don’t see that as a reason to abstain from the political process. Nor do I find a Biblical mandate to abstain.

– Additionally, would you serve in the U.S. Military if called upon to do so?

No. I do not see how perpetuating violence is compatible with following Jesus.

205   David Frueh    
October 10th, 2007 at 10:25 pm

Well just being curious in what really happens in the army I decided to do a little research and who better to go to than the army itself … I went to the army’s website and got into a chat with a recruiter and asked if there is anything I have to sign that states my allegiance is with America and he replied saying that I would not only have to sign but also give a oath to the united states saying my allegiance is with them and I believe that one man cannot serve two masters how can our allegiance be with America and with God two polar opposites but now before you start thinking how dumb… I’m not saying it’s wrong for any Christian to become a member of the military I’m just saying my convictions tell me not to its not something I would die on a hill for because I’m not really sure if its right or wrong I would just err on the side of caution and my convictions and probably wouldn’t go but here is another question sure to get mixed answers that I have struggled with…. in court is it acceptable for a Christian to put his hand on God’s word and swear to tell the truth hmm something to think about just remember what James 5:12 says

206   Zan    
October 10th, 2007 at 11:01 pm

Rick,

How can you not support being loyal to your country (ie, voting, supporting people’s obedience to the laws, pledging allegiance), yet be so insanely devoted to a stupid catholic college’s football team? Double-standard? Pot? Kettle?

I vote.
I don’t want ANY immigrants in our country at this time.
I am not wrong to love my country – I don’t worship it, but I do care for it, as God has put me here to be a part of it at this time in history.
I would join the military to fight for this country.
Even more so, I would kill any person who tried to hurt my family. Why not do it on foreign land, instead of in my own yard, though?

You all really have irritated me. I’m going to bed. Maybe I’ll like you all better in the morning.

207   David Frueh    
October 10th, 2007 at 11:06 pm

haha insanely devoted to a stupid catholic football team haha man that really is a good one not sure but most saturday mornings i hear ” hey david who does notre dame play this week” i guess that is insanly devoted? lol and better be careful we all know that Notre Dame is God’s team ( sorry had to stick up for my Dad when i know he isnt as devoted as he should be to notre dame haha)

208   M.G.    
October 10th, 2007 at 11:56 pm

Zan,

You are aware, right, that if we had NO immigrants in this country, that our nation would effectively grind to a halt?

Why don’t people realize that? The biggest impetus for immigration reform in this country isn’t democrats, it’s pro-business Republicans. Pro-business=pro immigration. Period.

209   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 12:05 am

I was asked a question to which I responded honestly. As you can see it sometimes reveals very strong feelings. My allegience to Notre Dame is more of a hobby than anything else, in the broader picture it means nothing.

When we are so devoted to a nation that others who are not invokes strong resentment it shows how all of us have been mentally guided through the years. I was there once also.

210   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 1:10 am

Keith,

You can do all those things but please realize that my thoughts on this once were just like yours… but you see I ask sill y questions like…

How can I kill those Jesus told me to Love?

How can killing my enemy show the love of Jesus?

The reason Christianity has survived for so long (aside from God which is the biggest reason) is that Christians where able to subvert the Rulers of the land by not only standing up to them… by turning the other check… which states one is an equal and to be struck again would mean that they would have to acknowledge you were an equal… to walk an extra mile for your enemy shows that they have not power over you… and to give you shirt, if they take your coat was to shame those who took you to court and reduced you to nakedness… it was about shaming those who did not follow God’s ways and did not forgive debts as God commanded.

Also as I stated, I have one God and one King and on Lord and one emperor and one creator and one… who has a Kingdom that is so much greater than the USA I cannot with a good conscience pledge to this lesser and serve it while I serve Jesus.

So I hope you can respect that this was not some “liberal” thing that one day Rush Limbaugh said something I did nto like so I went all Hillary on you…

Be Blessed,
iggy

211   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 11th, 2007 at 5:36 am

google them individaully and find the connecting link…wickedness in high places.

Because everything on the internet is true. That’s like saying Iggy is…ah nevermind!

212   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 11th, 2007 at 5:37 am

300 anyone? The comments not the movie.

213   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 6:23 am

chris,

Brilliant? Right? Smart? LOL! Come one chris don’t leave me hanging there! As smart as Martin Luther but not as pottymouthed?

LOL!

Blessings,
iggy

214   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 6:30 am

Keith,

I’m burning all of my MacArthur, Kistemaker, A.W. Pink and Calvin commentaries this afternoon. Obviously don’t need them with enlightening posts like this around.

I would get rid of the MacArthur ones… but the others might have some value… My mother says I sound a lot like Pink when I talk… though reformed, Kistemaker is lauded by evangelicals… so I might be careful stating you have his stuff… he might be too close to being purpose driven…

But if you do decide to toss these let me know and I will pay for shipping and you can send them to me.

Be Blessed,
iggy

Shooting for 300!

215   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 7:17 am

Zan,
I don’t understand how you can get so fired up over this one. Surely you can see that there may be some grounds in Scripture by which these guys are basing their views? I have kids and I know how to kill people (thanks to the government) and if someone broke into my house or did something to them I’d kill the person after brutally torturing them. I’m not using hyperbole here, in my heart, as an adult who was abused as a kid, I would have little to no mercy for them. The problem is I think I would be wrong. I’d be sinning. It’s one of the reasons I’m glad I believe in eternal security. :)
The truth, while I’m not where Rick is on this issue(thank heavens, it would destroy our relational dynamic), I am torn. Not on voting or saying the pledge of allegiance but on the military and repaying evil for evil I am torn. At best, I believe this is an issue of do what the Spirit convicts you to do.
My Thoughts,

216   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 7:24 am

Sorry, Iggy. I’m keeping them all…anxiously awaiting the completion of JM’s commentary on the Gospel of John and praying he’ll be able to get through Luke. (I know that disappoints you…but if that’s the worse thing we have between us, then I say we’re doing pretty good.)

Kistemaker “purpose driven?” I don’t see it. (I like the Hendriksen volumes a little better, anyway).

Just for the record:
– I salute the flag
– sing the National Anthem (I really can hit the high notes)
– rarely miss a chance to vote (if you don’t vote, don’t gripe)
– and I’d serve if called (too old). I think it would be a great idea if every high school graduate had to perform some type of military service for a minimum of two years.

Interesting. We really run the gammut (sp?) around here.

217   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 7:32 am

OK all…

I have been ruminating and marinating on this for a while.

Why is it we get so bent out of shape over Driscoll and his statements like “knocking Boots”….

I find much more gross and nasty things in the Bible itself!

Ezekiel reminds me of porno at times!

23:18-21

When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister.
Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

Now if Driscoll had stated that I would be offended also, yet this is a prophet that is inspired by God Himself stating this!!!!

And we get bent out of shape over “knocking boots”? How immature if you ask me!

Now it seems that truth is offensive at times to the hearer… especially if some deem themselves “pure” by their own standard. Yet, God does not seem to be a squeamish as some here are being over Mark’s words…

I pointed out that Luther was more offensive… Steve Camp lauds over Luther and Luther loved to say “sh*t” and there are many quotes of him using that word and others. So why is it that some like Steve pick and choose what is “right” and what is “wrong” and so condemn some and lift others who say/said worse things as more righteous… NOW THAT IS HYPCRITICAL TO ME.

Then to have some in some to throw a pseudo self righteous hissy fit makes me wonder as their maturity and real knowledge of the bible.

God made laws so his chosen people would not have sex with animals… he inspired the writers of the bible to say things about women’s breast and having pleasure in them… God talked about semen… yep in Genesis that word “seed” is really semen… sperm… you know God even created that!

Genesis 38:9 speaks of Onan who…

” And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother’s wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother.”

He did the withdrawal method… ya know the Pope approved birth control method, and made God angry because he did not give his brother’s wife a child…

And we get upset at “knocking boots”…LOL!

Here is one that is a bit cleansed as to what is going on…

Song of Solomon 2:6.

His left hand is under my head, and his right hand doth embrace me.

Dudes and dudesses, they are making love!

I may also not like the Driscoll style, but God beats him by a mile… and more!

Truth will offend… but it will also free one of self righteous pride that states that they are more pure than anyone else… for we are all only pure by the grace of God through the Blood of Christ.

be Blessed,
iggy

218   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 7:32 am

“(if you don’t vote, don’t gripe)”

I don’t.

If you do vote don’t gripe – you know, the Bible teaches and all that!

219   chris (the real saint)    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 11th, 2007 at 8:05 am

Ezekiel reminds me of porno at times!

Iggy I pointed that out about 150 comments back!

220   Zan    
October 11th, 2007 at 8:53 am

About immigrants:

I have alot I could say, but let’s leave it at this…The reason I don’t want any in right now is because I don’t believe the government has an adequate system or enough of a backbone to weed out those who would come in the country to do us harm internally. Not because I don’t want “those kind of people” here. I actually did love the diversity of our last community that we lived in (a college town)…I just care more about our safety right now.

As to killing…realize that the same God that orchestrated battles and ordered the slaughter of an entire evil people for the Israelites in the OT is the same God of the NT. I understand living under grace instead of law, but I really do believe that there are some basic “governmental” ideologies we can take from this. I once told a man, “What I do as a Christian in my personal life is not the same as what I would like to see my country do as a government agency.” I still believe this. It isn’t being hypocritical or two-faced. They are two separate entities with two entirely different functions. It is not a sin for our country to fight against evil people who would destroy us, our property, our lives. And unless I was in the military (which I would gladly do), I wouldn’t just kill a terrorist if I met him in a civilized manner. I would talk to him and get to know him. I would (and do) pray for them. But if he went to kill me, I would try and shoot first. That isn’t sin. Remember the difference between “killing” and “murder”?

Anyway, I must go. I do like ya’ll much better since I’ve had some sleep. :)

btw, Tamela, was it that I should be ashamed of myself if I had a car that cost over $30k or that has less than 30k miles on it? Just wondering the particulars of how I must guilt myself this time. Ok, I’m off to take my Cayenne to the car wash and trade in my cell for a new one iPhone! Tonight I think I’ll watch Harry Potter on my plasma screen with Bose. Anyone care to join me?

221   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 8:55 am

Since this seems to be the conspiracy thread. ESPN is reporting that Rick Freuh (on Sportscenter) asked for the body of George Gipp to be exhumed. Rick, is that you?

222   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 8:58 am

Keith,

I’d say we really do run the gamut. Here’s my answers:

– Do you stand and recite the Pledge of Allegience

Yes, keeping in mind that my allegiance is first to God before country. However, I do have a problem when churches which fly both the American flag and the Christian one, since – by law – the American flag has to be the highest.

– Do you stand quietly and/or at attention when the National Anthem is played/sung, etc.

Yes – hand over the heart, hat off, etc. I can hit the high notes, too :)

– Do you cast a ballot in any type of government sanction election, i.e. school bond issue, sales tax referendum, presidential election, etc.

I do for every election, and I agree with the sentiment ‘if you don’t vote, don’t gripe’ – believing that criticism of and accountability of publicly elected officials is necessary for maintaining a just government.

– Additionally, would you serve in the U.S. Military if called upon to do so?

Yes (I’m also too old, but if the military needed the skills I have, I would gladly lend them).

223   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 8:58 am

I’d love to have the iPod iTouch. I don’t really need a new phone and I loathe ATT. They are taking 45 cents out of every dollar you pay on your bill and funding the NAFTA superhighway. Plus they invest 10 cents out of every dollar you pay into creating new video games like Halo3. They do it covertly of course.

224   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 9:04 am

Ok, I’m off to take my Cayenne to the car wash and trade in my cell for a new one iPhone! Tonight I think I’ll watch Harry Potter on my plasma screen with Bose. Anyone care to join me?

Hmmmm. Sweetheart – if you really have those things, I’m gonna take your credit card away…

225   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 9:05 am

Sure Chris,
Act like you’re the on in charge.

226   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 9:07 am

I’m in charge whenever I want to be – I just have to ask for permission first ;)

227   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 11th, 2007 at 9:09 am

Joe,
You’re starting to sound like Driscoll now! ;)

228   Tamela    
October 11th, 2007 at 9:22 am

Hey iggy that passage from Ezekiel pretty much sums up God’s disgust when we play religion and worship all the false gods we make into idols….(cars over 30 k included). It’s porno for sure…but the ROOT of it is God speaking thru the prophet JUST HOW MUCH HE LOATHES IT WHEN WE LOVE EVERYONE ELSE AND EVERYTHING ELSE MORE THAN HIM….we’ve got Egypt in the church….we were suppossed to come out of Egypt but we have not. Right now Oral Roberts University is having a mammon scandal….no big suprise…it goes on every day in the charasmatic world. I appreciate what I learned from Dad Hagin, but I would never want to believe the Lord for some Mercedes…how stupid. I am believing for muslims to come to know Christ….I’m standing in faith that I can raise sons like Daniel as we live in culture rot Babylon…that is where my faith is….but mammon is a HUGE IDOL in the church (just like fame, “my ministry”, being a church planter).

Unless you’re really willing to give EVERYTHING UP..then I think we are playing “spiritual games” with the Lord. ANd by EVERYTHING…I mean…spouse, kids…house…car…comforts…reputation.. job……walking as a humble no-name ….walking in OBEDIENCE even if the world rejects you and your fellow man mocks you…if bloggers or talk show hosts mock you…if your governmental leaders or pastors mock you…..willing to literally DIE for the truth of Jesus Christ. Just read of a former muslim man in Gaza….DEAD at 29….FOR JESUS….for FAITH IN THE ONE TRUE GOD…..are be willing to STAND for Christ ALONE?

It’s not the broad road, that’s for sure…on the broad road everyone is laughing and feeling good…watching some movie clips in church….having our ears tickled..I’m ok..you’re ok…it’s your best life now with Jesus…come one come all to the magical, mystical everything must change tour….we change the gospel so everyone can be “in the group…the coummnity”…all we ask is that you show up….keep on coming so we can add ten more services…that way we’ll know how important we are….we got some BIG NUMBERS….as for disciples….well…that’s boring…that’s HARD….no one really wants to lay down anything of their flesh…who wants to pick up a heavy old cross….carry the Cross, like Jesus did…you’ve GOT to be kidding…if I carry it..I may have to get nailed to it……no.. I’ll just take my walk as “disciple lite”…hey….are we REALLY having an AMerican Idol contest in church this Sunday? Can’t wait to get to church Wednesday night….I might see Virgilicious do his bible rap…how about clown ministry next month….can’t wait to see Pastor don the make up and sing barry manilow “can’t smile without you” for PRAISE AND WORSHIP….whoo…..hoo…..Jesus is my superhero…He’s better than Yugio….(from Hillsong for kids)…..huh? Oh that’s right ALL CHristian kids are into anime, yugio, potter, halo 3….why…..I’m PUMPED …..BEING A CHRISTIAN IS SO MUCH FUN…..

better to take the narrow road where there is true PEACE, and Joy in the Holy Ghost. But that’s just my 2 cents….

229   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 9:30 am

I always suspected foul play when the Gipper died!

230   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 9:48 am

Is it against the posting rules to create an all time greatest TJ statements post?

231   Zan    
October 11th, 2007 at 9:50 am

I didn’t know that we needed to compare how much we have given/will give up for our Lord. Is that the same game as “How many people have you led to Christ?” No thanks, don’t feel like playing that today.

as for the original post, I still like Driscoll. I don’t have a problem with him phrasing things the way he did. The one thing that bothers me (and it is just a small western-thinking bother) is the addition of information about Mary being mocked for claiming that she had conceived by the Holy Spirit. I don’t necessarily think that Mary would have cast her pearls before swine. As far as the euphemism, I thought they helped in the understanding of her circumstances.

Did you know that they took the “cent” sign off the keyboard? Apparently we need that sign even less than we need pennies in today’s day and age. ohwell, my $.02 worth. (That wasn’t nearly as fun to type that!)

ps. Chris L. – ssshhhh…someone might think we’re poor…ssssshhh

232   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 9:52 am

I never knew there was a Cent sign on the keyboard. Where was it?

233   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 9:54 am

Joe,

I think we need a little bit more history before a ‘greatest of’ compilation is in order. It’s kind of like getting a ‘greatest hits CD’ from a band that has only released two albums…

234   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 9:57 am

Tamela,

Now, with all that I think you might want to scroll up and re-read the post, then re-read what I wrote…

Then tell me if you are going on Steve Camps cruise…

Cuz, “it is not about me, it’s all about Him” so pay up that Mercedes payment of $717.00 and get a basic room on the cruise ship or for $1700 you can get the luxury package!

http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/2007/10/its-not-about-us-it-all-about-him-and.html

Now tell me… are you gonna go?

Be Blessed,
iggy

235   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 10:01 am

Chris L,
If you peruse the internet in the wee hours of the morning as I sometimes am wont to do instead of doing something constructive you would know that there is a large breath of work out there. Of course, I’ll take your answer as a I’ve just got to wait a little while type of thing which is cool I have a buttload of papers to write. :)

236   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 10:03 am

Joe,

remind me to not borrow any paper from you…

ig

237   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 10:05 am

lol, you know what’s funny. I have a class where about half of the class takes notes on ruled loose leaf paper. I didn’t even know they still printed that stuff

238   Zan    
October 11th, 2007 at 10:07 am

Don’t remember exactly. My mom had an old typewriter that had it on it. Oh, the good ol’ days!

239   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 10:07 am

Joe – I didn’t realize that you were going to pull from sources outside of CRN.Info (or that they existed)! Kind of like pulling material off of bootleg albums for the ‘best of’?

If you can find a way to do it as a broad observation of a mindset rather than a honed piece pointing at a single individual, I think it would work…

240   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 10:10 am

Chris, as much as it would make me laugh, it would be inappropriate for this webpage. I might do it for my own, sometime though. Just for fun. Maybe I’ll spoof myself and do one on me too. !

241   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 10:46 am

Joe: To create the “cent” symbol, press and hold down the Alt key, then enter 0162 on the numeric keypad. It’s an extended Ascii character (I think that’s the correct term).

242   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 11:00 am

º¡§™

243   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 11:00 am

That’s what I got

244   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 11:05 am

¢

option 4 on macs.

245   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 11:06 am

¢

lookee what I got… LOL! I do have some ¢

iggy

246   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 11:14 am

¢
Dude, There it is! Ok, so are we blatantly just shooting (no violent video gaming imagery intended) for 300?

247   Zan    
October 11th, 2007 at 11:20 am

AAARRGH! I can’t get it to work. How do you do that on a pc laptop?

248   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 11:23 am

Zan: On laptops, you have to turn on NUMLOCK.

249   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 11:25 am

ALT + 0176 = Degrees symbol °
ALT + 0177 = Plus/minus symbol ±
ALT + 0185 = Superscript 1 ¹
ALT + 0178 = Superscript 2 ²
ALT + 0179 = Superscript 3 ³

The keyboard shortcut is your friend.

250   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 11:35 am

Y’all are going to have to do better than that to beat the 400+ Yoga thread from earlier this year, though it is rather strange how we’ve morphed from ‘knocking boots’ through conspiracy theories to how to make a ¢ symbol on your keyboard…

251   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 11:40 am

Chris: You gotta admit this is more civil.

252   Zan    
October 11th, 2007 at 11:43 am

*/-+uio4561230.0.89/*

nope…my alt + things don’t work, and my numLk doesn’t have a cent option. I will explore the inner depths of my computer at a more opportune time…11 pm in front of the tv sounds good. See you all then!

btw: really do love you all!

253   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 11th, 2007 at 11:53 am

I’m no longer (the real saint). It was tough to feign sainthood for 4 hours let alone a whole day.

Tamela you sure you were a d.j. and not a stand up comic?
Thats some great material.

How do you type greek? ¢ thats fun

254   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 11:57 am

Zan: If you have a Fn (Function) key, hold down ALT and FN while typing the numbers. Numlock must still be turned on. Give that a whirl.

255   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Chris: No way I know of to type Greek other than to cut and paste from the character map.

256   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 12:49 pm

Since we’re shooting for a gratuitous 300 here, I’ve been thinking about the original post here and my initial response/tirade. I think Iggy and Chris may be on to something. Why shy away from the portions of Scripture that I might find offensive–after all they are God’s Words? Inspired and inerrant. Right?

No! We should not avoid passages such as Ezekial 23:18-21

When she carried on her prostitution openly and exposed her nakedness, I turned away from her in disgust, just as I had turned away from her sister. Yet she became more and more promiscuous as she recalled the days of her youth, when she was a prostitute in Egypt. There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses. So you longed for the lewdness of your youth, when in Egypt your bosom was caressed and your young breasts fondled.

In honor of my new found relevance/tolerance for more graphic Scripture, I have taken the liberty of creating a flannel-graph of this verse. Click here to see it. I can’t wait to show it to our 8-year-old Sunday School class!

257   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 1:04 pm

OK, so are you being a smart alec or are you serious? If you’re serious I’ll respond in more detail in a minute but I would say there are certain things that we talk about as Adults that it would be irresponsible to share with 8 year olds but that doesn’t make the 8 yr. olds the standard by which we judge the appropriateness.

258   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 11th, 2007 at 1:13 pm

Keith,
Unlike the watchdoggies and their obsession with total family sermon attendance I don’t have a problem with saying “this is a subject matter for adults”. This week I’m doing exactly that and asking that any parents with kids in the 6th grade or younger take them to children’s church.

Jewish boys were forbidden from reading song of songs (after all Jews didn’t have the hermeneutically dishonest option of pretending song of songs was a metaphor for Christ and the church).

The Bible is graphic. Maybe even inherently graphic considering the central message involves an innocent man being brutally tortured and killed for the sins of others.

259   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 1:22 pm

So at least we can admit that there IS an inappropriate time or place for some topics/euphemisms. In a nutshell, that’s exactly what I was trying to get across in my original post (number two in what will soon be a total of 300+).

260   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 1:39 pm

Well of course, Keith!

261   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 1:40 pm

The deeper question: Did anyone try to click the link?

262   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 11th, 2007 at 1:42 pm

No, when I moused over it there was no URL there.

263   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 1:53 pm

Keith, are a proponet of the “Growing Kids God’s Way” series. That gentlemen espouses the idea of placing something “tempting” in your kids way so that you can punish them. While I doubt you wanted to punish us, it still seems odd that you would do that (to me at least).

264   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 2:11 pm

There are more than a few Christian musicians who have written their own versions of Song of Solomon to their wives or husbands. My favorite has to be Bill Mallonee’s “Love Cocoon.

It got banned from Christian bookstores of course! Gotta protect the kids. :)

265   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 2:13 pm

And just to end the conspiracy theories of this site, my previous post got thrown in the spam folder. Funny, I’m an admin. :)

266   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 2:18 pm

I’m not familiar with that series.

Did you actually think I would create something like that after the fit I threw!? We may not agree on many things, but I’m sure you thought better of me than that.

I do think it’s interesting that no one brought up a “line” (for Tim it appears to be 6th grade) until I mentioned 8-year-olds. My line is obviously different than others. Frankly, I had no idea that verse in Ezekiel existed. Kinda scary to me that several folks were able to pull that one out of the hat so quickly. Whatever floats your boat.

Only 37 posts to go!!!

267   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

Matt,
My favorite “banned” Christian album was “Pray Naked” by the 77’s. It was “banned” in the sense that it was released only a “self-titled album” by the label’s decision.

268   Matt B    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 2:27 pm

I have all the 77s albums. Every single one of them. Love the 7s and Mike Roe.

269   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 2:35 pm

Mike Roe is one of the best guitarists, not just in Christian music, but in the music business. It’s a shame he’s not better known than he is.

270   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 11th, 2007 at 2:37 pm

Kinda scary to me that several folks were able to pull that one out of the hat so quickly. Whatever floats your boat.

The back story on how I know that verse is…
2 summers ago we had an intern from Calvin college go on our summer trip with the youth group. During cabin time the guys were asking each other what is the worse verse in the bible; the intern throws out the Ezekial verse. Every year since all the 9th grade guys get to hear it (from the older guys) on our fall retreat.

That intern also told everyone that biologically men can breast feed if they massage their breasts long enough.

271   keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 11th, 2007 at 2:47 pm

Chris: We NEVER had a camp like that! You guys have all the fun!

272   Shua    
October 11th, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Wow, I wonder what classes that guy took. I was never taught either of those things at Calvin.

[Note to whoever is running moderation, I mis-typed my email address on my other comment, so it does not need to be posted from moderation.]

273   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 2:48 pm

Zan says “btw: really do love you all! ”

In a red, white, and blue kinda way?

274   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 11th, 2007 at 3:19 pm

Yeah I’ve often heard referenced the Ezekiel verse in the same context chris mentioned.

But my favorite was always the book of Judges. Ehud especially. I always wondered what Ehud Barak’s parents were thinking when they named him Ehud.

275   Zan    
October 11th, 2007 at 3:38 pm

ok, I will just tell you all that my computer is retarded…it doesn’t let me have any fun whatsoever.

Also, about “Growing Kids God’s way”, if that truly is what it teaches, then those people would go and throw themselves in the abyss because otherwise they are going to wish they had. You do not do that to your children!!!!!! That is evil, wrong, sinful, cruel, and all other bad words I can think of to say it. I know someone who did that. It was awful, and that kid had alot of issues!

Rick, no…I love you in the Black and Gold kind of way. (Hail, Hail, our old Purdue…)*suzanne is now humming a wonderful song*

276   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 4:02 pm

So you took your kids on a youth retreat with a white rich kid who went to a school named after A MURDERING THEOLOGIAN and you wonder why they get some obscure verse? WAKE UP AMERICA!!! Start reading the Mayflower compact! It’s a pact between MURDERING PILGRIMS AND GOD!!!
I suppose next year you’re going to take them for a trip on NAFTA superhighway?
Thats it, Like KEN SILVA AND TODD UPCHURCH, I am done posting here!
Not Really RICK, I’m just trying these other posting styles out!

277   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 4:11 pm

First clue the you’re a watchdoggie: TYPING IN ALL CAPS

278   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 4:14 pm

I will be honest here, I like Purdue and always have. I do not like either Michigan or Ohio State, but I like Purdue, even their basketball team all the way back to Rick Mount (before your time).

By the way, Painter is an illegal alien!

279   Shua    
October 11th, 2007 at 4:23 pm

Hey, not everyone who went to Calvin is a white rich kid. Some of us had to have scholarships and are still paying the loans.

280   Shua    
October 11th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

Oh yeah, and the same goes for Notre Dame.

281   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 11th, 2007 at 4:34 pm

Hey, not everyone who went to Calvin is a white rich kid. Some of us had to have scholarships and are still paying the loans.

Yeah but everyone in Michigan knows that the best Reformed school is Hope. You could have gone there for less money and gotten a better education. LOL

282   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 4:35 pm

So you’re a CALVINIST CATHOLIC? Is that like Yoga-practicing, labyrinths praying, lectio devining, new age, apostate, emergent pastor?

283   Shua    
October 11th, 2007 at 4:36 pm

Them’s fightin’ words. But you may be right if you’re talking about an education in abnormal psychology, but they don’t give you a degree for observation.

284   Shua    
October 11th, 2007 at 4:39 pm

Fightin’ words for Chris, not Joe.

I’m an ODM’s worst nightmare. Grew up at a Baptist Church, went to a Reformed College, a Catholic grad school, and am part of a church that would probably be considered emerging.

285   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 4:42 pm

Acording to the Grand Rapids Press, Hope’s tuition is actually more this year than Calvin’s. But it’s still not named after a MURDERER!

286   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 4:46 pm

I grew up FUNDAMENTAL, INDEPENDENT, BAPTIST with Arminianistic tendencies. I went to a GARBC BAPTIST FUNDAMENTAL COLLEGE, where I became something of a 5 pointer. I went to a NON-DENOM Seminary. Then I was ordained in an SBC CHURCH. Planted one, and helped another. Now I go to a Baptist leaning non-Denom school and we all know who my teaching pastor is. And I now believe that God talks to me, and heals today so I guess that makes me a little CHARISMATIC! :)

287   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 4:47 pm

OK Joe, I’m calling Jim Bulbitz right now!

288   Shua    
October 11th, 2007 at 4:49 pm

The baptist church I grew up in was Fundamental, Independant as well. I didn’t become a member of a GARB until after finishing school and before becoming part of a group that planted the church that I’m part of now. I think we may have to take votes over which of us has a screwier background.

289   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

Rick,
I thought I heard somewhere that you were going to be on Mike Corley’s program. Is that true?

290   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 5:01 pm

BTW Rick, Call him. Either he likes me more than you, or less. I can’t figure it out. But when he writes about me he doesn’t call me out by name like he does you.

291   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 11th, 2007 at 5:37 pm

Since we are declaring our pedigrees…
Raised Catholic (altar boy and the whole schtick)
Saved in Non-Denom Pentecostal leaning Church
Attended AOG most of my twenties (with varying degrees of Four Square and Full Gospel)
Married in a Catholic Church to a Muslim woman.
Attended Catholic Church after my marriage
Free Methodist for awhile
Evangelical Free for awhile
Back to Free Methodist
Youth Pastor at a Reformed Church of America.

And Rick it is confirmed that you wanted the “Gippers” body exhumed. It’s being reported that he is going to replace Jimmy Clausen this weekend. Should be an improvement.

292   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 5:45 pm

So um is your wife still Muslim?

293   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 7:51 pm

I have a necropheliac addiction that surfaces now and then. Am I still saved?

294   nc    
October 11th, 2007 at 8:06 pm

Rick,
that’s grooooooooooooooooooooss!!!!!

295   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 8:07 pm

WOW

296   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 8:07 pm

What?

297   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 8:19 pm

Maybe (hopefully) he meant narcolepsy! I hope.

298   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 8:23 pm

The Gipper thing you goof balls!

299   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 8:33 pm

Well, I know I’ve been labeled emergent (a title I eschew by the way) but words have meanings, and that word typically means bad things with dead people. I’m just saying

300   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 8:50 pm

Keith,

So at least we can admit that there IS an inappropriate time or place for some topics/euphemisms. In a nutshell, that’s exactly what I was trying to get across in my original post (number two in what will soon be a total of 300+).

I agree, yet that is not the point people like Steve Camp and Ingrid are trying to make… they are just plain stating that people who talk like that “The filthy way that Mark Driscoll speaks of Christ’s incarnation, Mary the Mother of Jesus and so forth is dead wrong. ”

It is condescending and truly lacking in grace… it is placing standards that our your own on others and not realizing that God states worse things that Driscoll!

So if the attitude of judgementalism was nto there and people were saying that Mark’s comments were not appropriate for the audience, (though one might have to be younger than a teenager if you ask me…) then I would not have an issue… but the blatant attitude that lacks true grace toward others that do not meet your own standard… now that is just sad.

be blessed,
iggy

301   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 8:55 pm

Keith,

Also many of the flannel graph stories dilute the teaching of scripture too much.

As far as Sunday school I remember I attended one and was asked who Moses was… I had no idea as I was six and had never heard of Moses. I was laughed at by the class and by the teacher… she mocked me for not knowing something so simple.

I find it sad that instead of compassion I was ridiculed. It took many years later for me to visit church outside of Easter or Christmas.

I see this same attitude in Steve Camp and Ingrid… no love just condescending contempt of those who do not meet their standard of righteousness.

Be blessed,
iggy

302   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 9:00 pm

Iggy – without looking, can you tell me who Moses is?

303   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 11th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

Moses was that guy who Charlton Heston made famous in that movie about that Jewish Egyptian who did miracles and stuff like that… he was a musician that could change sticks into snakes and make frogs turn the rivers to the Red Sea.

He also wore sandals… and got angry about an orgy and a calf made of gold. But he had a great beard and it was the only movie Charlton did not wear his signature scarf around his neck…

But I really liked Planet of the Apes better…

Now for important things… did anyone notice I was number 300! Onward to 400…

So far I was 100, 200 and now 300…

Moses was also the character on Song of the South if I remember right… you know it… come on… let’s all sing…

Mister Blue Bird on my shoulder, it’s a fact it’s actual, everything is satisfactual… Zippity do da, zippity day, my or my what a wonderful day. Plenty of sunshine coming my way… Zippity do da, Zippity day!

I know you sang it…

And Keith, yes I did click it… I love horses!

be blessed,
iggy

304   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 11th, 2007 at 10:18 pm

Phil Miller,
Are you the same Phil that is smashing his head over at seeingclearly?

305   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 12th, 2007 at 6:08 am

So um is your wife still Muslim?

No…She was converted listening to “Jars of Clay” “Love song for a savior”. Hard to believe but that’s sometimes how God works.

306   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 12th, 2007 at 6:14 am

For whatever reason I didn’t post this after I read Keith’s comment but I will now.

The problem I have with Camp (besides his song “Don’t tell ‘em Jesus loves before you do” is not what he really believes) is that his statement basically says “Our Lord doesn’t talk like that therefore we shouldn’t talk like that” When actually the proof is there; that Christ does talk like that.

Let the firing squad begin.

307   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 12th, 2007 at 6:15 am

Iggy if I lived in Montana with nothing but an internet connection I could be 100, 200, 300, … as well.

With that much time on your hands you must be a pastor.

308   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 12th, 2007 at 8:09 am

Yes, Joe, you have outed me. We are one in the same.

309   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 8:19 am

you poor guy. I love going over there and reading what they have to say. It cracks me up. I’m sure they’re all really nice people but some of the stuff they say, well…

310   Matt    http://matbathome.blogspot.com/
October 12th, 2007 at 10:20 am

To keep this totally off topic:

I’m off to Spain for a ten day vacation. I’ll miss you all. I might have to check in from the road.

311   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 10:22 am

What’s a vacation?

312   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 10:26 am

I don’t think it’s strange at all that Jars was used in her life. A friend of mine grew up with one of them and before they were popular they actually played a concert near my school–they couldn’t play on campus as their music was still “illegal” on campus–. I’ve always enjoyed their stuff. Don’t tell anyone, I don’t want to ruin my image. :)

313   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 12th, 2007 at 10:36 am

Over 300 comments and I imagine countless hours later…what have we accomplished? Has anyone changed their opinion? Do sites like this one or CRN’s ever really change someone’s mind?

Just wondering.

For the record (as if I really needed to say so), my opinion has not changed re: Driscoll’s comments (the original topic of this thread).

314   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 10:39 am

Keith,
We’re enjoying the conversation. The # of comments is more of an attempt to get beyond a # than to change anyone’s mind. Perhaps, someone’s mind will change in a few months and this conversation will be the catalyst that started it, perhaps not. Either way, I still find it interesting that you obviously bring some real angst, almost anger into this particular thread.

315   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 12th, 2007 at 10:40 am

Keith,
What this site has done, at least to a certain extent, has kept the watchdoggies from being the face of Christianity as far as google is concerned. If you listen to the podcast from last week about CRN.info’s philosophy Chris L explains that part of the reason he started this site was when one of his co-workers independently produced one of hte watchdoggies’ articles and was taking it as gospel truth because he found it… via google.

Also, Driscoll’s comments were appropriate.

316   Keith    http://fivepts.blogspot.com
October 12th, 2007 at 10:41 am

I gotta dump it somewhere. It’s my gift.

317   Shua    
October 12th, 2007 at 10:52 am

I think the point is not necessarily to convince anyone or change their minds, but to, at the very least cause people to examine their views, to go deeper the the surface or the superficiality of “this is what other people told me Christians have to believe.” The beauty of this is that, whether or not we agree, there has been an opportunity for everyone to examine opinions other than their own, and to test them against Scripture and their own convictions – and possible to learn the difference between the Biblical and the preferential.

318   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 10:55 am

Shua (BTW what kind of name is that?) that sounds very emergent. You BAD BAD man

319   Shua    
October 12th, 2007 at 11:41 am

Joe:

This has been discussed before, I think right after Rick was going to make me a nun on his Star Wars themed parody site. Shua is short for Joshua. I do not like being called “Josh,” so friends who got tired of correcting themselves after calling me Josh began calling me Shua instead of saying “Josh….shua”.

Next, I am coming down to GR to take away your Caps Lock key, and also your Shift key, you are enjoying the ALLCAPS too much. It’s just not safe. Haven’t you heard that Christians are not allowed to enjoy things, especially things of “the world” – a category into which computers certainly must fall.

Worse than emergent, it’s a touch of post-modernism with a hint of honest introspection and a dab of humility.

320   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 11:46 am

I am currently at the Kava house (EastTown) tormenting some Calvin kid who never heard that John killed people. I’m also mangling my own paper which is due at 5 today. Honestly, it may be worst paper I’ve ever written. It just sucks. I can’t make it sound good at all. I have one good paragraph in 7 pages!

321   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 12th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

Joe, I am for literary hire and I can promote any theological perspective you desire!

322   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 12th, 2007 at 12:15 pm

Joe, I am for literary hire and I can promote any theological perspective you desire!

Which raises an interesting question in my mind; who’s vocabulary is bigger Julies, Ricks, or Kens? I’m casting my vote for Julie.

323   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 12:41 pm

Sadly, this report is about leadership in the ministry setting. Has anyone seen Julie? I just read Keith’s opening comment on this thread. Man, that was something.

324   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 12th, 2007 at 12:50 pm

chris,

Iggy if I lived in Montana with nothing but an internet connection I could be 100, 200, 300, … as well.

With that much time on your hands you must be a pastor.

I work a full time job with the largest newspaper in Montana. I service all the news racks in Montana and Wyoming… and supervise 5 vendor drivers who work nights… so I work both day and night… and I am on call 24/7.

On top of that i am a intern and on the leadership team at the local Vineyard church and sometimes teach as i will in two weeks.

I think I look like I am here a lot as I do keep the page up and monitor it throughout the day… as i am working or as i am at home… since I do not have regular hours I am on here at all sorts of different times. I am up late or early which ever is your perspective… today i am home sick… though I still have to go in and get a couple of must do projects done that gotta be done.

And yes my wife says I spend too much time on the computer.

Be Blessed,
iggy

325   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 12:51 pm

The largest newspaper in Montana? What do 20 people read it?

326   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 12th, 2007 at 12:54 pm

Keith,

Over 300 comments and I imagine countless hours later…what have we accomplished? Has anyone changed their opinion? Do sites like this one or CRN’s ever really change someone’s mind?

I am not sure we have accomplished much, but it has been fun! I think one thing that this sight has done is be open to people like you… and people like me… both with very strong views and at time polar opposites…yet… somehow… we are united… hmmm maybe it is Jesus?

I have enjoyed our banter… and i have found that though I may not agree with you… you are (most the time) an agreeable person and I like you. (Don’t let those other guys know that OK? it might be bad for both our reputations! LOL!)

So onward to 400? OK?

Be Blessed,
iggy

327   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 12th, 2007 at 1:00 pm

Iggy just razzing you a bit. Most people think that I as a youth pastor only work Sunday and Wednesday. que sera sera.

328   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 1:04 pm

Most people think that I as a youth pastor only work Sunday and Wednesday.

And they would be wrong in that you really only work on Wed? I mean the SR pastor preaches on Sunday right?

329   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 12th, 2007 at 1:06 pm

Joe,

LOL!


Billings Gazette Communications also received a 2006 Lee President’s Award for Innovation. Since 2001, the Billings Gazette has won three Lee President’s Awards for Innovation and three for Excellence in News. Billings also was among finalists for enterprise of the year in 2005. The Billings Gazette is the largest newspaper in Montana with circulation of 46,200 daily and 52,400 Sunday. Its online site is http://www.billingsgazette.com, and its specialty publications include Gazette Glance, Thrifty Nickel, Work For You, Billings Business, Montana Land Magazine and Magic City Magazine

.

Now that is not as big as many out there, but there is another major newspaper in Montana out of Great Falls… Yet out of a population of 944,632 and adding in some of the Wyoming people I think we get a good share here.

So, the answer is, yes only about 20 out of all those people actually read or can read the paper…

Be Blessed,
iggy

330   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
October 12th, 2007 at 1:08 pm

And they would be wrong in that you really only work on Wed? I mean the SR pastor preaches on Sunday right?

Middle School Wednesday night.
High School Sunday night.

331   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 1:08 pm

The rest no doubt use it to start the fire in their wood burners.

332   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 1:10 pm

Maybe if you did your job when they were in Middle school you wouldn’t have to preach to them in Sr. High.
Sorry I couldn’t resist. When I start working on my papers, I get ornery.

333   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 12th, 2007 at 1:11 pm

chris,

When I was a youth pastor…

I worked a full time job, did the janitorial at the church building, did greeting, helped in leading worship, held Sunday services for the youth and a senior high group, and Jr high group and and combo… I was also paid! I received a whopping $200 a month as Youth Pastor. I think I put in more hours doing that than I did on my full time job.

So, I know there is much more to youth pastoring than a couple of nights a week. LOL!

Be Blessed,
iggy

334   Shua    
October 12th, 2007 at 1:16 pm

Does each new word combination you make up count as an addition to your vocabulary? If so, then I think you know who has the edge there.

And Iggy, don’t you run an Internet Radio station, too?

335   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 12th, 2007 at 1:23 pm

Joe,
I thought you’ve been commenting a lot more recently, and now I know why. You’re just putting off writing – get back to work!

Or, maybe you’re just practicing for when you’re a “full-time” pastor with nothing to do.

336   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 12th, 2007 at 1:29 pm

Shua,

Yep, I run an Internet radio station in my spare time…

Actually that has been on the “air” for about 7 years now and has been in the top 100 of Christian genre for about 3 years.

It has grown from a hobby to a ministry and the next step is to go pro with it and sell commercial, but I can’t afford the 2 to 3 thousand a year and I think it would lose some of its ability to get into countries that monitor “christian” things.
From my stats I see a few countries let it through as they do not associate “iggy” being Christian.

So there are many countries I seem to slip into…
Be Blessed,
iggy

337   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 2:10 pm

Phil,
I’m editing it now. :(

338   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 3:15 pm

Paper Done and Sent In!

339   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 12th, 2007 at 8:41 pm

Well, 339 isn’t all that bad. I was hoping TJ would come back and give me some more material. I’m thinking of going public as a Stand Up comedian using her stuff.