Sometimes the ODM sites remind me of those late night infomercials you see that try to convince you buy a product that solves a problem that you didn’t even know you had. In this piece, Dwayna tells us about the “growing” problem of American “Hebrew” Cults. I have to admit, that this is the first I have ever heard of such a thing. I have heard of small groups of Messianic Jews that sort of resemble what she seems to be talking about, but even then, her piece seems off the mark.
Is this type of fringe movement really a huge danger to the Church? It seems that it is so far out of the mainstream that even Christians with a basic knowledge would realize it was out in left field. Is the average Christian, in the mind of the ODM, really that stupid? I would say that the answer appears to be, “yes”.
The thing with “ministries” dedicated to exposing dangers to the church is that they need a certain amount of heresy to expose in order to continue their “calling”. It’s sort of like the fad ”diet” industry. If it was really accomplishing its stated goal, it would go out of business. Thus, we get articles like the one linked above – warning us about a relatively small fringe movement as if it were a huge problem.
The interesting thing about the article to me, is that for all it’s Scripture citations and hyperbole, it doesn’t give one concrete example of a church where this group is actually causing problems. We get one anecdotal story about her relatives, but that seems like a pretty weak piece of evidence to claim this is a “growing” problem. It seems everything else is based on hearsay.
It seems to me that your “ministry” consists of warning others that the sky is falling, then at some times you might have to go to great lengths to prove that point – even it means making mountains out of molehills.
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96 Comments(+Add)
When she calls this the “Hebrew Roots” movement, I thought that she was going to be talking about people like Bell and Vanderlaan, people whose teaching I greatly respect. If I didn’t already know how those men taught, and had only heard reference of how they were “evil teachers of the Hebrew Roots variety forming one of the pillars of the Ecumenical Church of Deceit” or some such nonsense, I could have come to the conclusion that the sorts of things Ms. Litz was speaking of were taught by men like Bell and Vanderlaan.
I don’t wish to put words in Ms. Litz’s mouth or say that she was making a deliberate attempt at this link, to confuse the unknowing about what people who are often talked of as part of a “Hebrew Roots” or “Jewish Roots” movement are all about. All I am saying is that the mischaracterization could easily be made by people who are, whether intentionally, negligently or innocently, un- or underinformed.
BTW, I had never heard of the sort of “Hebrew Roots Movement” spoken of in this article.
My favorite about her is the categories she puts her stuff in
So your problem with Dwayna’s article on “Hebrew Roots” movement is that she calls it a “growing” problem and you think she is over-reacting? That’s lame.
Research sources indicate that the movement is growing, though yet to reach critical mass size. It ain’t shrinking nor staying the same. So it is like a “heads up” notice that this would be something to watch out for and prepare against. She has done an excellent evaluation of their beliefs and shows where it goes against Biblical teaching.
Perhaps God had this movement to affect Dwayna’s family in order for her to write about it. The effect has been more of localized influence in various cities than a widespread national one at this point. So you wouldn’t have heard about it yet in your sources for Christian-related news.
As far as an orthodox church having ‘problems’ with the movement, well, it’s more of a passive problem of withdrawal from the church rather than the movement’s activists storming the church, yelling that the name of Jesus means ‘pig’ in Hebrew. The movement plucks Christians from other churches and mainly meets in homes, as far as I’ve read. Dwayna may know of actual cases of them causing some churches problems.
Do you have any actual comments in regards to the article and/or the “Hebrew Roots” movement itself?
Timothy,
You’re missing the big picture. This is just one of many data points. The pattern is for watchdoggies to freak out over either things that ultimately don’t matter much (either in terms of size or substance, or usually both) in order to generate hysteria which translates into hits and googlejuice.
There are many of these Yeshua/Yahweh movements around. They are not strictly connected to the Messianic movements, although that group is also theologically inept as well. As for Bell and the rest, as well as this blog, the move is to make the word of no effect by relegating everything to a 1st century context only.
Dipensationalism or its flipside, preterism. Both are wrong.
Tim Reed,
But you used Dwayna’s posting on “Hebrew Roots” movement as an example of the supposed ODM “hysteria.” I think it is unwarrented.
Sure its hysterical. It can’t even be called a movement. Interesting that Dwayna didn’t cite any sort of numbers on these groups. As far as I can tell she’s met one person who has met someone who was involved with this group. Meeting someone who met someone and writing an article which is intended to empty the bowels of readers with scare quotes is by definition hysteria.
So yes this is a classic example of watchdoggie hysteria.
Tim Reed and Tim Bell,
I have to do a project for one of my classes on internet communication and problems that are inherent in it. I may use the two of you. You guys are case studies.
Sweet!
shammah,
Have you ever even listened to Bell preach? I would say it’s pretty obvious you haven’t.
While I’ll agree that the group Dwayna describes seems off-base, I don’t see Bell doing anything like what she describes. Bell teaches what the Scriptures mean in context, and then how that applies to us today.
Many Christians read the Bible in a way they wouldn’t read any other book. You couldn’t read “The Scarlet Letter” and understand all it talks about without an understanding of 17th Century Puritans in America. Likewise, we can’t read literature written in 1st Century Palestine without undertanding that time and place.
Another new commenter! And with an excellent blog name to boot–END THE APOSTASY. Where he claims to have been “Defending the lentils from the Philistine hoard for nearly three millenia [sic]”
Come on! That’s awesome, Dude. We have a highlander in our midst
Tim Reed,
It has been called a movement by others beside Dwayna. Do you think she is the originator of using the word ‘movement’ to this teaching? They have adherents in all 50 states and a number of foreign countries. From the limited sources I’ve read personally, Ohio has at least 30 groups within the “Hebrew Roots” movement.
Dwayna’s article is aimed at the core beliefs of “Hebrew Roots” adherents. It wasn’t meant to be a comprehensive book on peripheral issues as numbers of people involved in it. A major Christian publishing house expressed interest in publishing her more extensive coverage on this movement which would include how extensive it is.
TB,
The Libertarian party is larger than this group.
That should tell you something about how insignificant it is.
HEY! I’m a libertarian!
I would love to meet Ms. Dwanya. I really like her picture. All posed like she’s some kind of personality…
but oh, wait! Only emergents “market” their infomercial gospel.
She seems well meaning, despite her “analysis”….
At least she doesn’t shriek and throw tantrums like Ingers.
Cool, say hi to the other guy for me at the next meeting.
Well, it looks like good ole’ Ken is still reading here even if he isn’t commenting. Tim Reed you got called out! Hey, how do we know Tim Bell isn’t really Ken?
Wow, Ken really doesn’t get it.
TB, for all of our disagreements, is far more pleasant than Ken.
“Sales for country ham in the South may be on the decline as the groups grow, because these “Gentile/Jews†don’t eat pork.”
Ok. I take back what I said about Dwanya…
After reading that statement I have to conclude that she is just “out there” or that piece is satire.
Country ham sales?
She’s so insightful.
It’s a SHE! HELLO TIM REED! WAKE UP!
I’ve got to say this all caps thing is kind of addicting.
I don’t believe that Bell, Vanderlaan or anyone here has ever “attempted to make the word of no effect by relegating everything to a 1st century context only.”
The problems with this statement are “relegating” and “only.” What people have done is been honest enough in their reading to know that there is a historical context, but I don’t recall anyone ever saying that the context of the Word was limited to the 1st Century. It just appears that understanding the context in which the statements were made/written makes us better able to understand the present context.
Phil’s point on this makes perfect sense. Understanding that there is a historical context does not limit the Word, but enhances it and allows us to understand more of it, in my humble opinion.
TB,
Even if I grant your assumption that this group is gaining influence (even though most of here have never heard of it), who appointed the ODM’s to be judge, jury, and executioner for the Church? It seems to me that if a member of a local church is thinking about leaving to join one of these groups, that should be a matter left up to the pastor of that church to deal with.
For as much as they compare the EC to Roman Catholicism, it seems like sometimes, they are the ones longing for the centralized power of a Pope – as long as they have the power.
Tim Reed, I didn’t know you were a good ol’ c of C’er! Congrats! Me too!
RE: Ken’s article
Nice. Tim Reed’s comments were just sooooooo mean-spirited.
It’s just so awful to have an opinion differing from the watchdogs.
Oh, but that’s right…it’s the LORD who’s speaking through Ken.
To paraphrase Job: No doubt Ken, Ingrid, et. al are the people. All wisdom will die with them. (12:2)
“It is easier to lead men to combat, stirring up their passion, than to restrain them and direct them toward the patient labors of peace.”
But it’s brilliant when the “leaders of combat” accuse those who would restrain and direct people toward the labors of peace of their own sin.
Todd,
Did I read correctly earlier that your background was in the Acapella coC?
Todd,
Yep, Chris L’s background is in the restoration movement too. So you know we have analog experience with mean Christians as well as digital.
I do not find any fault with this particular post by Dwayna even if this cult is diminutive in scope, all cults start small. Different variations of this “Hebrew” strain are all over. Remember the football player Reggie White began some strange Hebrew teaching right before he died.
Rick,
It does matter if its insignificantly small if the thrust of the article is a huffy “OH GNOS TEH HERATIKS R COMIN!!!!”.
Phil,
I never heard of them either and Dwayna didn’t either until members of her family got involved in it. She started research into the “Hebrew Roots” cult and learned so much more about them. Then she applied the Bible to what they believed and the article is part of the result. That is what she did and her work on this will eventually be published as a resource for pastors, among others, who may be faced with this movement.
Tim Reed, does your church (of Christ) consider systematic theology to be extra-biblical, in accordance with cOfC’s handling of ’sola scripture’? Would using books that detail, for example, why Hinduism, Islam, etc. is not Biblical be against your church’s policy? Would this extend to articles on such? Do all ‘churches of Christ’ believe the same way?
Short answer no with a but, long answer yes with a however.
I’ve never made an argument that said because something is extrabiblical it automatically should be burned. The argument I made is that this is a tiny, insignificant thing that doesn’t deserve the hysterical treatment its been given.
No, what’s going to happen is this post is going to generate the requisite number of huffy like minded watchdoggie attention then sink to the bottom of the interweb where it will be as insignificant as the groups it documents.
Tim Reed,
The “Hebrew Roots” movement, or group, if you prefer to call them, may be considered insignificant until it affects you or your church or your friends. Wouldn’t it be nice that someone has already done some research on them? Dwayna isn’t making any claims that hers is the final say on the group but for those pastors and others, I’m sure it is and will be a welcome resource for them.
TB,
Why not give resources, research, etc. without all the histrionics?
It would only serve her credibility to come across as an even tempered, thoughtful investigator. Instead she comes across as some hyper emotional reactionary who sees demons under every rock.
Iggy – your comment got eaten, please resubmit.
NC,
Hyper emotional reactionary??? What??? I don’t see that in her article. Can you give an example???
TB – I have seen it from her in other articles but you are correct, not this one.
I would like to point out a few things.
1) I’m also libertarian (High Joe!) get it? High? Liberertarian? JK
2) Joe gets bonus points for referencing Highlander (which has to be the best t.v./movie ever)
3)
It would be nice if ODM’s would “sound the alarm” about the slow death of the American Church.
4) I prefer Hebrew National Hot Dogs does that make me a
Dipensationalist towards BallPark franks?
That’s all I got. Talk amongst yourselves.
3)
Okay so I have more:
I’ve edited Dwayna’s opening paragraph:
Actually I didn’t change it. I think it brilliantly describes most of the blogoshpere ODM’s.
TB,
So anything that effects a friend or a church anywhere jumps to “significant”?
It’d be nice if the research were done with a little perspective. But as I pointed out above, the very definition of of watchdoggie prevents perspective. Every issue, and every group is an imminent threat to the cross itself.
TB:
Sorry, to be clear I’m speaking about the accumulated weight of how she communicates. It affects people taking her seriously…that has to be recognized.
So with that clarification…my question?
I think that if you read this article…
http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/2007/09/satanism-and-hebrew-roots-movement.html
And realize two things about Ms Litz…
1. Sound doctrine = those who agree with her
2. She is a “Satanism is taking over the world” person…
I see much she writes as delusional and that she might have some mental illness…
She supports Mike Warnke and has attacked John Trott over this.
Here are some other examples:
http://bluechristian.blogspot.com/2006/03/accusations-of-goddess-worship-by.html
http://bluechristian.blogspot.com/2006/07/cornerstone-festival-2006-and.html
I think her obsession with Satan blind her from seeing beyond his spell.
Though I do think there are some things I would be weary of about this group, I am not convinced that there is a huge swell or that there is a lot of cultic teachings.
I also do not agree with some of the statements by the group if some of the quotes like all Jewish Holocaust victims will be saved are as Litz states. Yet, I do see the why of this type of thinking.
Again, because of this obsession, I admit I throw out the baby with the bathwater with Ms. Litz.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Rick,
It tried it again…
ig
After reading Iggy’s links, I wonder what else do we need to say that Ms. Lutz is either a desperately bad researcher on par with those who advised W about WMD in Iraq or she’s just plain nuts?
From the article:
I notice that Ken still does not have a handle on the ol’ logic thing (perhaps his Language Arts class didn’t teach it back then).
Iggy, you reveal more about yourself in saying Dwayna suffers from mental illness than you think.
Dwayna has never said or wrote in her own hand about Mike Warnke, for or against him. She merely linked to Gregory Reid’s site for the information he had aside from his comments regarding Mike or Stratford. Dwayna herself told me that she never mentioned anything about Mike Warnke because she had not looked into that issue at that point.
And Dwayna is not obessed with Satanism, but where it rears it’s head, you gotta call it out.
In regards to Jon Trott’s accusations, Dwayna was right to cast attention to the fact that Christians for Biblical Equality consider calling God ‘Mother’ is ok. God prefers to be addressed as male. And the Cornerstone festival certainly needs to clean up their act.
But I guess I won’t convince you as much as you can’t convince a Jesuit that indulgences isn’t supported by the Bible.
My big question to Ken is why he supports Ms Litz and her bad research and lies… then states this is about tolerance?
I think another big question also, is why do us emerging folk not agree with lies and slander and then are called intolerant and hypocritical?
Why is it OK for Ken to agree with slander, lies and bad research and still consider himself “discerning”? Walter Martin backed the research of John Trott and was part of outing Mike Warnke… and Ken defends Ms. Litz?
Ken is a bit blind to his mentors views and I think left Walter Martins quality of research and discernment a long time ago, I think Walter would state that Ken is aberrant and a bit of a loose cannon… he would refer to him as this generations Bob Larson, who started out OK then got carried away…
Could it be Satan?
Be Blessed,
iggy
Phil Miller
I did not say that Bell was like the groups mentioned by Ms. Litz. As for historical context, one can study what is known about a particular historical period, but unless you have actually lived in it you really dont have a clue.
So to say that we need to have understanding of a particular place or cultural group to exegete the bible, a knowledge which is impossible to fully possess , makes the word of no effect.
Joe Martino, I corrected the spelling, thank you. Yes I am the highlander, and there can be only one. A warning to all;try not to lose your heads around me.
shammah,
I don’t quite understand what you are saying. Are you saying that unless one was alive in a particular time period, than we can’t even attempt to understand the cultural context of something written in that time period? Then I guess we should quit teaching history at all then.
The Bible didn’t fall from space. People wrote it. They used language, metaphors, literary styles, etc. that they understood. To think that we can understand it without considering those things is juste naive. I’m not saying one has to have “perfect” knowledge (as that would be an impossibility for all practical purposes), but there needs to be a baseline understanding. Otherwise, you get people taking Scriptures completely out of context, like Chris L. points out in the post above this.
Iggy, didn’t you read what I said?!? Nobody is supporting Mike Warnke!!! Search Ms. Litz’s blog and you will not find “Mike Warnke” anywhere!!! Search CRN and you won’t find “Mike Warnke” there either!! Geez, Louise!
She merely linked to a writeup of Gregory Reid’s which happened to have comments from Greg about Mike Warnke and Lauren Stratford. Dwayna did not link to Greg’s article because of the Warnke issue but because Greg wrote additional articles on the same webpage on other things (which I’ve forgotten by now which one it was.)
Now will you publicly apologize to Dwayna for calling her a liar?
Awesome! He has a sense of humor, too.
Hopefully your Prof does as well…5 o’clock is looming! Write your paper.
TB,
1. She linked to that article as one who backed Mike…
Now to say that she just was quoting the Gregory Reid… is a bit dishonest as she give no commentary and she quotes a part that is very pro! If she was against Warnke or Gregory Reid I think she would have stated so. Also, has anyone there bothered to ask Ms Litz on Laurna Stratford? And if she is not supporting them why not state that more clearly?
Considering that she has a Gregory Reid like attitude toward JPUSA I think that one can safely deduce that she agrees with him.
2, Now I think you are missing something about God’s preference. Jesus stated God is Spirit. That means He (yes I used the male form) is not male or female… in fact the “image of God” is both man and woman as taught in Genesis.
We use words like “father” or “King” as a representation of Who God is, yet to say he is “male” is a stretch by far. He is Spirit… so can you tell me if God has a gender? Is God distinctly “male”?
I do not think we need to refer to God as “Mother” but the point is that accusations are that Mimi Haddad are “renaming” God as female which is not true… she is pointing out that God has a female aspect to Him…
Again, I do not advocate calling God “mother” yet there are scripture describing God as a mother hen covering her chicks and such so “mothering” is a part of God also.
Again, since you talk to Ms Litz, have here verify that she does not support Mike Warnke and Laurna Stratford… I vaguely recall reading that Litz met Stratford and found her charming… I cannot find the source… yet there seems to be gaps at Lighting the Way and article missing as I know she did one on Cornerstone that was almost exactly like Gregory Reid’s article.
Again, Satan is real, but I think that God is more powerful and that some give Satan too much power by finding him under every rock and cranny.
So let’s see how obsessed she is about Satan
http://ltwinternational.org/visit.htm
be Blessed,
iggy
TB,
Cool down a bit as i was reading comments and might have answered someone else’s comment before I read yours…
But still, she has nto state she does not support Mike and Laurna so until she does I see no apology needed… she need renounce them but as it stands right now… I would put it past her lying to cover that she does support them.
BTW her research is very bad… she states things like Quaker do not beleive in Satan… and seems to see Satan everywhere she looks! So don’t tell me she is not obsessed.
Be Blessed,
iggy
btw the mental illness statement is not just my view… and also it is not meant as a cut against her… I am sincere that she may need help and my have had a traumatic experience as with the article I linked to above… people like this are obsessed and often oppressed by Satan to the point that they are almost possessed.
This is serious and it is sad. And I have had to counsel a few people suffering from this, which some do nto come out of it.
I was also one who suffered under this sort of oppression.
Be blessed,
iggy
Paper done.
Iggy,
You are reading too much into Dwayna’s linking to Greg Reid’s webpage. After my explaining that she linked to the webpage regarding an issue OTHER THAN the Mike Warnke issue, why do you think that is an endorsement of whatever Greg Reid says on Mike Warnke and Stratford? A judge, were this an issue, would not support your claim.
Why would Dwayna need to state that she doesn’t support Warnke or Stratford if she is not writing about them in any case? Jon Trott made the logical leap in assuming that she was supporting them.
And why should she have to come here and state that she doesn’t support Warnke and Stratford just because you want her to? Where do you get off on thinking so highly of yourself there? She doesn’t need to state anything about it because she never did say anything in the first place about it.
I agree with Dwayna on the CBE issue.
From Dwayna’s many posting on her blog, it is apparent that she isn’t “obessed” with Satan. Certain things happen in her life that are from Satan, as well as in any true Christian’s life, and she writes about it. That’s not being obessed.
I believe her research is fine. She’s getting published – you’re not.
yes. because being published really means something.
TB.
OK, then were does anyone at CRN think anyone should give them a answer… this is a bit revealing of you as you seem to have one standard for everyone else and a different one for me… then you say I think so highly of myself? LOL!
Talk about double standard and convoluted logic… let alone hypocrisy!
maybe you should point the finger at Silva, Litz and the rest who think so highly of themselves to demand others bow to them… let alone when someone does show proof of their innocence never give grace and apologize for the wrong done and the lies stated. I think that IF she has integrity she should clarify all this instead of hiding behind some false sense of dignity. She should be happy to state here position… especially on Laurna Stratford.
You see IF i am wrong, then I will apolgize… but you have yet to prove me wrong. Does she or does she not support Warnke and Stratford? This is not htat hard of a question, nor is it about me… or how highly or not I think of myself.
iggy
TB,
BTW,
I have been published…
iggy
Al Gore won the Nobel PEACE prize
Anton Levay wrote the Satanic bible and it was published… so it must be true! LOL!
Playboy is published and supports a hedonistic lifestyle… well it must be the true way to live! LOL!
Really most the sights she is published have pretty low credibility also… it might have a hit, but they also have a lot of misses.
iggy
Iggy, iggy, iggy…
Dwayna never touched upon the issue of Warnke and Stratford. So why does she need to “clarify” her position on them? Jon Trott ASSUMED Dwayna was supporting them. It is HIS problem, not Dwayna’s. And Dwayna’s not hiding behind anything.
I cannot speak for the whole of ODM’s just because I’m speaking up for Dwayna Litz here. I have not read the whole of CRN’s blog, nor of Ken Silva’s blog, nor of all those links on CRN. I’m only addressing the Dwayna article on “Hebrew Roots”, the Warnke issue, and that’s the scope of it. You cannot extrapolate what I write here to that to all of ODM’s.
I guess by your logic, Iggy, whatever you published must be full of errors and lies too.
Hmm… I often refer to my Savior as Yeshua. I also believe that Constantine messed things up real bad. Yes, indeed, Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays begun under Constantine.
Does that put me into a cult? Nope. I don’t know much about the Hebrew Roots things and I’ve only known one person in this city who goes to a Messianic church. Does that mean she’s in a cult?
See, the problem with Dwayna’s research is that she puts more conjecture and emotion into it than solid research. She needs balance. There are many of us who use “Yeshua” rather than “Jesus” and who believe that “Jesus” is not His name. Yet, we have nothing to do with the Hebrew Roots thing.
There are plenty of us who have done our research into the origins of Christmas and Easter and have seen the evidence to show that these holidays are, indeed, pagan. But what does that have to do with the Hebrew Roots Movement??
Dwayna, please, bring some balance to your research. Please explain to your readers that not all Christians who call on the name of Yeshua are in a cult. Please explain to your readers that not all Christians who recognize Christmas and Easter as pagan are in a cult.
I couldn’t even read the whole article. I read the first few paragraphs and was completely turned off by the hyperbole, exaggerations, and outright lack of scholarship. Just stick to the facts and explain all sides.
Oops, I should say that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays that were incorporated into “Christianity” under Constantine. Certainly, the pagan Easter festival began hundreds of years before Christ.
ME, what Dwayna is saying in her article is that the Hebrew Roots movement uses the “pagan origins” of Christian holidays as evidence of the wrongness of the whole current Church of those who use the name “Jesus”. They even condemn going to church on Sundays as pagan.
Dwayna isn’t saying that ALL people who use “Yeshua” as Jesus’ name is part of this or any cult. She is just saying that that is the name they use BECAUSE they believe that the name of Jesus means “pig” and they believe it was Jesus’ real/original name. Apparently, “Yeshua” wasn’t used in the Old or New Testament.
Tim Bell,
Are you billing Dwayna hourly?
Joe,
Huh? What? I don’t get it.
TB,
Note that Gregory Reid is used a lot as a resource for Ms Litz.
http://www.isthisyour.name/gregory_reid.htm
http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/search?q=Dr.+Gregory+Reid
Note also she did make a statement by posting this post about Gregory Reid’s views which seem to be much like her own…
http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/search?q=stratford
Now while Warnke is not mentioned here is in the articles she is showing… and that both Stratford and Warnke were proven to be frauds what Gregory Reid is writing against. So to say that she is not stating that Stratford and Warnke are innocent is a lie…
My logic is much better than most the convoluted garbage your friends put out with even less proof of accusations. So give me a break… or go to them and give them the same speech you are giving me.
Also, Ms Litz is saying a lot of thing in the article this thread is about that is way out in left field… let alone having said Quakers do not beleive in Satan and accusing JPUSA for being WICCANS and are really satanists…
iggy
Cuz you’re acting like her defense attorney. It was a joke.
A reading of Dwayna’s lengthy articles you will come across this observation about ministries thirsting after other’s sins:
“Cornerstone, et.al. have instead exposed people’s sins, not scripturally, but in the presence of the secular press hungry to find dirt on evangelicals. The only difference between what Cornerstone did and what the secular press did, is that Cornerstone paid for and did all the work for the secular press. That’s why Paul said not to go to court against a brother in a worldly court. It gives the world a reason to mock, and to reject our message.”
One wonders if Dwayna actually reads the ODM sites that post the moral failures of believers linked directly to the secular press?
Ok, wow. You found where Dwayna indicates that she believes Lauren Stratford is innocent. And since you believe that Lauren is guilty, you feel that you can write off the rest of Dwayna’s writings, huh? The fact of the matter is Dwayna never mentions Mike Warnke. Jon Trott still has made a leap in logic to suggest by implication that Dwayna believes Warnke is innocent.
Iggy, I can make mistakes but I NEVER intentionally lie.
So now you have to bring up the links for Dwayna saying JPUSAians are WICCANS and are really satanists. Stretching the truth there too, Iggy?
Well, Joe, the prosecution just won’t stop either. They are trying to smear Dwayna’s “Hebrew Roots” work by claiming that because she believes in Stratford’s innocence and allegedly believes in Warnke’s innocence that somehow that makes all of her work garbage. They do not take her Hebrew Roots work by itself but throw all other kinds of crap at it. I think that is wrong.
Not that I’m the inconsitency (sp) police but I believe that guilt by association gets thrown around a lot by the ODM’s. I.E. “footnotes” Mark Driscoll.
Tim I believe your sincere in your defense of Mrs. Litz but I just wish the standard would be applied evenly on both sides of the fence. For the record I believe Iggy is reaching here as well.
Her “hebrew roots work” is shoddy; its not mean or bitter its just plain shoddy. Journalistic integrity is important; even if she were writing an op-ed piece. Hyperbole, innuendo, and assumption should not be used as journalisms cornerstones. Unfortunately it appears that it is modus operendum for most of what Mrs. Litz writes. For a “published” writer she should know better and her editor should advise her appropiately.
TB,
I never stated that you intentionally lied. and I agreed that Litz did not directly state thats she supported Warnke…
Do you really want me to… I can and will but I think you might not like that I am right again…
Here is one…
That is from a comment she posted and did not say they went too far.
OK so what does she say about them?
http://lightingtheway.blogspot.com/2006/07/verses-for-jesus-people.html
Here are some highlights…
Both these were just quick searches and I am confident I can find more without much effort…
Yet, the funny thing in this whole conversation is that you still insist I am lying and have yet to apologize to me… It doesn’t matter as I do not need your approval.
It is not just the Laurna Stratford articles it is as I have stated that she is very loose with the facts. Her critique on Cornerstone is bizarre at best, her statement that Quakers do not believe in Satan is a lie and on and on… her research lacks actually searching for facts it is as she stated above… “subjective”.
She states that JPUSA teach others to levitate which they do not, they were stating that a saint levitated and that was part of a lecture taught about the “saints” and not a promotion of levitation… it is like stating that I went to a church who used a Nietzsche quote and that meant they supported Nietzsche.
She also will take a phrase like “Anam Cara†which is a Celtic phrase that means “soul friend” it was not just used of druids and witchcraft, but of Celtic Christians to describe Jesus.
She also by this insinuation was making a slight accusation against the Band itself. She is making them sound like they are druid spiritualists. I wonder if you disagree that Jesus is our true Soul Friend…
Man even Spurgeon would agree that Jesus was the friend of men’s soul…
Charles Wesley even wrote a song about Jesus being the “lover of my soul”… so talk about someone stretching something…
It is also an endearment to a loved one… some put the expression on their wedding rings…
iggy
TB – Dwayna’s post about the Hebrew Roots movement is within acceptable parameters, I have heard about it before. Let us say that she can be at times a little exciteable in her writings, and the obssession with Warnke et. al. is hard to digest. She at times seems to be seeing satan in some very questionable words or actions.
I do think she loves Jesus but comes across as prideful sometimes not to mention my disagreement with her rebuking of ordained men as a woman. I am in the minority with that view, sorry.
Iggy, there are many things that are going wrong with Cornerstone/JPUSA to take on appearances of witchcraft in their Day of the Dead, skulls, “christian” feminism that is taking on the spirit of Wiccans and satanists, et al, IF indeed they are doing that as Dwayna said she witnessed. I have yet to see from your links that Dwayna actually called anyone a Wiccan or Satanist. Now she did say that the denomic spirit of such was felt at the various Cornerstone events and in various writings of CBE and the like.
You overstate the supposed need that I have to apologize to you. Pffft!
TB,
Your pride keeps you from apologizing and I never though you could lower yourself to do it… not without Jesus helping you…
iggy
What does it mean to be “published”?
TB,
You are depending on some one’s “feelings” as they slander other brothers and sisters… those were her own words…
I showed you that there is enough issue to not take her as serous as she takes herself… that she sees Satan under every tree…
I have witnessed and been involved in the stuff she is “feeling” and thank God I am no longer… yet JPUSA has been consistent in their faith in Christ Jesus. To attack others by “feelings” and then to take things out of context as grossly as she has… is delusional.
All ministries have issues… because there are people involved… Now, Ms Litz goes out and witnesses to Homosexuals… and talks to them… she is “fellow shipping” with darkness… what does light have to do with darkness… I mean this is how I feel about it.
The Day of the Dead is about the saints that have gone on before us… not Satan… I admit fully that paganism has become a part of the practice, but the point originally was that we remember those great saints that died and are now with Jesus… hmmm like Calvin and Spurgeon for example.
So to say it is based in Satanism is to lose sight that the day was a festival to rejoice in the dead that are alive with Jesus! And when we give it to Satan, he rejoices in YOUR worship.
For that is actually honoring him and not God and not the saints…
BTW I would never try to deal with the demonic by my “feelings” as my own feelings without the demonic can be wrong by themselves… so to add to it the demonic is idiotic and lacking in any real spiritual wisdom in how to deal with the demonic. You deal with them straight forward and with truth… you do not “feel” you way around. God will be there to tell you what to do if it is a real demonic thing… as He will defend you. To base things on “feelings” with the demonic is very dangerous if not stupid. A demon can work on your “feelings” and twist them around to pull you in or move you out… but a demon will not stand if the Light of Christ is your power. Demons are nothing to mess with… even for novice Christians… but even the novice who stands on Jesus and not his own power…. or feelings, will drive out demons.
Be Blessed,
iggy
Iggy, Day of the Dead origins is based in paganism, it didn’t become part of it in later times, it was already there. In any case, let the dead bury the dead, we don’t “celebrate” dead people and as Christians, yes we rejoice that they move into heaven, but it is a morbid practice and in many Catholic countries. It is not a Christian practice. It is a pointless exercise in any case.
Now what are you saying about witnessing to homosexuals? That is called “fellow shipping” with darkness? I don’t get you there.
Last night, I did pray to the Lord that IF I was wrong about something in this conversation to reveal it to me. My heart was open to come on here to admit I was wrong if I was indeed wrong about something. That may happen later…or maybe not if I really was in the right.
What became clearer to me is that Dwayna is being judged by her belief, real or not, that Lauren Stratford and Mike Warnke are telling the truth. This somehow affects the quality of her “Hebrew Roots” write-up, a separate issue.
So where’s the “shoddy research” in her Hebrew Roots work? Basically, she references what the HR groups have put out about their beliefs and contrasts that to what the Bible says. So show me where the shoddy work is.
We may not celebrate Dead people but evidently Paul thought we should get baptized for them.
I do not necessarily believe Paul “thought we should” be baptized for the dead. There are two meanings here that fit. One is that in Corinth people got baptized for dead martyrs and even some pagans for dead ancestors, so Paul was putting the logical inference before them that by their own customs they must believe in some type of resurrection.
The other is that by getting baptized in Jesus’ name they were showing their belief in the resurrection and in that instance, His. This verse is one the Mormons take out of context and baptize dead people in hopes of ascribing salvation.
Ok, Rick, you’re helping me with a project. If what you are saying is correct, then why does Paul use something that would be “extra-Biblical” to make a point. More to the point of my project, why would God choose to inspire these verses?
There are verses that are a lie that God chooses to inspire. The witch at Endor and the appearance of Samuel is a mystery. Rahab’s lie is problematic, and Paul using their own customs as he did about the hair custom to the Corinthians is fine.
Here is my two-fold problem:
Endorsing heretical books from men who claim to be Christian is wrong on every level.
Using secular books is Ok except when they teach wrong theology, unless you are using them in a negative teaching way. If you would like, e-mail me with anyquestions and I will give you my perspective. It isn’t inerrant but at least I’ll be honest.
TB.
i was being a bit sarcastic on the “fellow shipping with darkness” by using your style of logic.
Historically, All Saints day is a Christian Holiday.. so whatever you desire to call it is up to you… give the day to Satan if YOU want… I think that if God see the saints blood that have been spilt and will be spilt as something for His vengeance, then we should have a bit of reverence for them also… I personally will not offer anything to Satan…
Also it is not the celebration of the “dead” per say, but the acknowledgement that death has not sting.
Again much of paganism has attached itself to this holiday… but the core of the day is about Christians who are now with Jesus.
About Ms Litz’ “research” I merely gave one of many examples of her “bad” research… you focused only on Warnke and Stratford and seem to miss the other things I stated… so if you must defend her for stating Quakers do nto believe in Satan and JPUSA is associated with the occult then go ahead and JUDGE THEM… for that is what is really going on. I hold her research in suspect not becasue of Warnke or Stratford, but because it is just bad… and those other things are proof of her bad research. You seem to turn things around to be about me or my disapproval, and I might remind you that this world does not revolve around me.
Now since you are praying, I hope that you are not just praying to justify yourself, but that you are praying for God to reveal His truth to you… for we can all justify ourselves and use God to do it… but I pray that you find your peace in the truth of Jesus and that your conscience is settled on that same truth that is surrounded by God’s Love.
I do not even care if I convince you, I pray that God will lead you.
In all this the only thing I did notice is that you lack grace with me and that you seem more concerned with you being right than if God’s truth is known.
In that I pray for both of us for mercy to humble us to hear God’s voice as I do not as you seem to think beleive I am always right. I am more concerned that those harmed by lies be exposed so that God will be glorified.
Be blessed,
iggy
Rick, I appreciate it. I might take you up on it. I would say there is a difference in Paul and the witch at Endor though.
Ok, I’m off to more homework.
Iggy, I focused on the Warnke and Stratford issue because I was determined to keep our scope of dialog from “scope creep”. In auditing, if you let the scope of your audit ever expanding, you never get anything done. In dialog, scope-creep can lead to longer and longer replies covering the whole swath of issues that lead to ever more increasing questions and so forth.
I had already increased the scope of dialog on Dwayna’s Hebrew Roots work to accommodate your issue of Mike Warnke and Lauren Stratford that you originally brought up. I remember we talked about this some time ago. More issues than that would just make this dialog go further from the examination of Dwayna’s Hebrew Roots report. I was not going to do that.
Now if I lack grace with you, it is because I truly suspect you not to be an honest person. A couple of weeks ago, your answer to my question, “So how do you approach evangelism?” was not a very clear one.
Now I can agree with some phrases in your answers, here and the rest of it, but that first paragraph was like, whoa…what? “Living out the incarnation?” “attractional?” I still don’t get what you are saying. There were many answers you gave to me and others since the time I started coming to this site that just seemed so unclear to the point of it reminding me of the phrase “saying something while saying nothing.” And that becomes suspect in my opinion about your honesty.
TB – I cannot see how in what you quoted Iggy about evangelism equates dishonesty. And I also do not see how that legitimizes not having grace with someone because you “suspect” some “dishonesty”.
Iggy in my opinion is painfully honest.
Rick, it has always been my experience that use of obfuscating answers when asked pointed questions indicates dishonesty and the wish to deflect the person’s real beliefs or guilt.
To the question of “How do you approach evangelism?”, I expected Iggy to answer something like this: “I approach it from the perspective that we need to make the gospel attractive to those without Christ….” or “We depend on God to present opportunities for witnessing….” Instead Iggy answers in some form of, to me, unclear language. The best I can make out of the first sentence is that he believes in “Lifestyle Evangelism”.
“Total dependency” second sentence- I guess that means total dependency on God to present opportunities for evangelism. I guess this means a more or less Reformed outlook.
“Just as at time sought out one lost one” – huh? I guess Iggy meant to say “Just as Jesus at one time sought out the one lost one” referring to the one lost sheep.
“…then at times did miracles that attracted a crowd I see that some seem too worried about one way being more right and another not right enough……” Okay, I guess a period is supposed to go between “see” and “that”. So Iggy believes in using miracles to attract a crowd? In the context of the Bible, Jesus performed miracles, not for evangelism, but for witness that He was God.
“Attractional”- Never knew of this word until now. Even this blog’s spell-checker didn’t even recognize the word. So what does it means to “be attractional?” That sounds just like the seeker-sensitive, PDL/PDC, emergent approach to evangelism.
So Iggy believes in Arminian approach to evangelism with a slice of Reformed outlook too, at least that is what I get out of it. He could of just stated that in a sentence or two. Instead we get this long drawn-out answer that you have to analyze phrase by unclear phrase. To me….that is not being honest.
Well, I don’t want to get too far ahead of Iggy so I’ll refrain from more postings until he can or have the will to respond to recent posts.
Tim – Iggy is emergent so phrases like “attractional” equate with missional. I don’t agree with Iggy on some things of course, but he is extremely transparent and honest. It’s just the emergent language thing, mircurial but still honest.
Iggy is a theological mongrel and he has no quarrel with that. There are things that we could confront him about but honesty is not one of them. I understand your confusion, but at this time there is no thesaurus to guide us through. BTW – I had never heard of attractional either, I may make up my own words that sound so very doctrinal!
“My view of Jesus’ birth is virginal.”
In my post of 1:32pm, 5th paragraph, I meant to say that a period is supposed to go between the words “crowd” and “I”…not “see” and “that”.
TB,
Here is the key to me…
I have exchange my life for the Life of Christ.
In that if Jesus says go, I go, if Jesus say do, I do…
Now I see that Jesus can tell me to go over there… and you to go a different place… He can tell me to attract some, and tell you to focus on another area… neither of us wrong as we are doing the work of the Father through Jesus Christ.
I really am surprised when someone says they do not know how to live out the incarnation… as it seems to be a crucial and almost fluid part of my faith. Yet, it is that “as Jesus is in the Father, He is also in us… and as we are in Christ He is in the Father” It is to “abide in the Vine” as a dependant branch…
It is the realization that I cannot produce anything good on my own and anything good that is, is of God. So if I produce “goodness” as a fruit it is all of God and none of me.
I do not claim to be Arminian… as I do not claim Calvinism… I am a Follower of Jesus… I am one that belongs to “The Way” (Acts 9:2) I am not my own… I am my beloveds…
I believe that God had the eternal plan of salvation before creation “in Christ” and in that we are to preach Christ so all men can come to know this plan of salvation… this is not Arminian, this is what Jesus taught… to preach the Gospel of the Kingdom… there is no other Gospel… As Matthew teaches.
In the Gospel of the Kingdom is our salvation…
Now you do misquote me… and misinterpreted me quite badly as I never stated Jesus did miracles to “attract a crowd” I said that ” at times did miracles that attracted a crowd” and there is a big difference… so it seems that you need to read me closer to understand what I do mean.
Jesus did miracles as you stated not to show he was God, but to show that the God was with Him (John 3:2) there were times Jesus could not perform miracles as some places people did not have enough faith… so to say he did them to prove he was God misses the point. Now, Jesus also did not entrust Himself to those who just believed because of the miracles as he also knew men’s hearts.
Yet, the attractional model itself if one is directed by God can be used to lead some to Jesus… for it is the Father that draws people… and if the Father uses Rick Warren, then we should praise God… if He uses John MacArthur then praise God… the point is that it is God that saves us not man… or how or what we do… it is not the prayer or the kneeling… or the alter or the words but the workings of God.
So, again… it seems you need read me more careful…
I don’t have time to unravel the rest but I hope that clarifies some things… been a busy day and still I have lots to do…
Blessings,
iggy
Alright, Iggy. I can understand these comments. I guess we can lay our differences aside for this thread and move on. Indeed we do have busy lives.
In sincerely, be blessed,
Tim
In looking over the thread, I realized that I missed NC’s posting of 12:39 today. NC, if you are still reading here, did you have a question for me?
TB,
I will joyfully take that as an apology… and offer one to you also…
I apologize for my strong words and appreciate that you can lay are differences down…
Be Blessed,
iggy
TB,
not anymore.
the iggy-TB meta rendered it irrelevant.
no worries.