I was reading some of Walter Martin’s works when I came across his advice on how to witness to those in cults:
The first do is, do identify with the cultist. Convince him (or her) that you consider him to be a person in his own right — worthwhile, basically honest, and not trying to put something over on you. Cultists are people before they’re cultists. They have families, they have children, they have needs, they have frustrations and fears, and they are brothers and sisters in Adam, though not in Christ.
Well, that’s not very watchdoggie of him. Its almost like he’s taking the Biblical admonitions of gentleness and peace seriously.
Now, there are also a few don’ts I want to mention. First, don’t approach a cultist with a spiritual chip on your shoulder. A spiritual chip is the communication of the feeling that you are looking down on the cultist because you have something he or she doesn’t have. Such an attitude will turn them off as fast as anything you could imagine.
Second, don’t attack directly the founder of any particular cult. When I lecture on Mormonism, I do not attack Joseph Smith as a person. When I lecture on Christian Science, I do not attack Mary Baker Eddy. I criticize the theology they taught. Remember, if you deal in personalities, people become instantaneously defensive.
Third, don’t lose your patience, regardless of how dense a cultist may be. Remember how dense you and I were — until the Lord managed to break through. Because cultists are bound in the chains of slavery to sin, you need to be patient. And being patient means being willing to go over something ten times if necessary, believing that the Lord will bless your efforts.
It seems to me that Dr. Martin was far closer in tone to hippie emergents than he was to the watchdoggies. Hopefully, the fraudulent attempt by watchdoggies to-opt the legacy of Dr. Martin won’t succeed.
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Aside from his use of the somewhat dated word “cultist”, Martin definitely sounds like a lovey-dovey Emergent. He doesn’t even recommend that we tell the cultist that he is bound for Hell and face judgement (at least not here).
If McClaren, Driscoll, Pagitt, or Bell had written this, the ODM’s would be all over it.
Do you really have that bad of an impression of ODM sites? Goodness . . . They may criticize an individual’s teachings/methods sometimes, but I don’t think it’s ever out of hate for that individual (more like tough love . . . they just want Christians to obey God’s word– is that so awful?). Likewise, I don’t think Dr. Martin sounds overly “lovey-dovey” in this article (if this was sarcasm, sorry I missed it), I think he sounds quite reasonable. This whole site seems to be anti-ODM site, which I think is too bad– if you dropped the whole I-can’t-stand-Ken/Ingrid/ODM-people thing this would be a wonderful site (since I usually agree with all your other posts). I’m not trying to be controversial or start anything, these are just some humble observations from an outsider.
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Merry,
I believe there was a great deal of tongue-in-cheek involved here. For months last year, Ken kept using Martin in his credentials, as in “I have beet trained in cults at the feet of Dr. Walter Martin, and…”, but then when Ken noted when he first started following Martin’s teaching, one of the guys at VerumSerum noted that Martin had been dead several years, by that time. In fact, Ken’s “learning at the feet of…” comprised of a set of audio tapes.
I think Tim’s point here was that Martin had a lot of good suggestions on how to approach gross biblical error, and that those who love to quote him next to Spurgeon, Pink and Tozer probably haven’t read him all that well, or listened to him about as well as Paul listened to his teacher, Gamaliel, on how to treat members of the Christian “cult” in Judea…
Ok, cool. I wasn’t sure . . . lol
Merry,
In addition to what Chris said, I’d point this out.
This is where you and I disagree. I see quite a bit of antagonism towards pretty much anyone who isn’t a watchdoggie. Not tough love (where is that in the scriptures, exactly?) not gentle correction, and certainly not the type of behavior the scriptures command from us towards people in general, but especially towards other believers.
I also don’t think that all they want is for people to obey God’s word. What they want is to impose their culture on everyone. Take a look at complaints against current VBS (as opposed to the way they used to do it), complaints about not using pews, not using pulpits, the way people dress. None of this is found in scripture, yet they act like it is. This isn’t about substance, its all about appearances. Something about whitewashed tombs and dirty cups is coming to mind.
Sure, they complain about some pretty dumb things sometimes. I don’t agree with everything they say. And maybe they aren’t always as mature in their approach as they could be. But I haven’t seen how they are “imposing their culture” on anyone, besides having websites, which people go to by choice. Why do you feel like they are “imposing their culture” on you? Do they force you to do things you don’t want to do? Bear with me here, this is nothing against you personally. I could have written this comment on any ODM site, and maybe I will. I am just grasping to understand why Christians can never get along each other, and many times don’t even make an attempt to get along with each other. I think scripture says “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.” (Romans 12:18.)
one of the guys at VerumSerum noted that Martin had been dead several years, by that time. In fact, Ken’s “learning at the feet of…†comprised of a set of audio tapes.
Hey, did anyone ask if he listened to them in a graveyard? Maybe he really was at Martin’s feet.
To be fair, they haven’t succeeded in actually doing it, so I guess I should have said they try to impose their culture on others. As to examples, I gave you plenty of examples. Beyond the attempt to impose their culture on other people, there’s also the disrespect they show to the scriptures by using them as a hammer to try to impose their culture on other Christians, not to mention the inherent dishonesty in the way they use dead theologians.
Merry,
I have seen many people try to have reasoned conversations with the various ODM with varying degrees of success. Most of the time the ODM’s pick up their proverbial ball and go home. The fact is that for the people that run those sites, being right (by their own very narrow definition of what is right) is more important than the Biblical mandate for unity.
In fact take a look at this post in which Chris L. pointed out how the “editor” at CRN actually tried twisting Scripture to prove that factions in the Church are good thing. I agree with your sentiment that Christians need to do a better job at getting along. I think what we try to do here is protect our brothers and sisters in Christ from attacks from the ODM’s.
OH LORDIE!
(I bet I get nailed over that one)…
Ken needs to go back an listen to those tapes and read some more of Walter’s books. I have been reading “Essential Christianity” by Walter and in it I see where Ken is missing the boat…
It is sad that Walter’s good name and ministry has been torn down by some of the stuff going on… the CRI donation scandal… the issues that Walter’s wife is having against CRI and some other organization…
I find it sadder that some who claim him as mentor care little about keeping his name clean and following his advise…
Again, Ken could be so much better and has so much potential… all I can do is pray.
Be Blessed,
iggy
All right, all right, point made! Very interesting logic, I’m not quite sure I agree, but that’s okay ’cause I’m wondering about something else. If you seem to think it’s God’s will for you to protect your brothers/sisters in Christ from ODM’s, and the ODM’s seem to think it’s God’s will for them to do their thing . . . then somebody must be wrong ’cause I’m not sure conflict is in God’s will. I don’t know who’s wrong and I doubt either party would ever be willing to admit that they’re wrong. I think it’s interesting, because both parties are doing what they sincerely think is right. Well anyway, thanks for explaining things.
merry,
You have pointed out the classic conflict in Quis custodiet ipsos custodies? – or Who will watch the watchmen?
Plato’s classic answer was:
They will guard themselves against themselves. We must tell the guardians a noble lie. The noble lie will inform them that they are better than those they serve and it is, therefore, their responsibility to guard and protect those lesser than themselves.
However, the Biblical answer would suggest that iron sharpening iron is the answer.
The ODM sites do bring up things that ought to be discussed and wrestled with, though often with hyperbole, hate and invective that ought to be absent from such conversation. Additionally, they are afraid to allow open discussion (the iron on which to sharpen their own iron), which has partially led to the creation of this site.