ODM’s have exposed me to a much wider range of modern Christian thinkers than I had been before. In doing so, I have had to more seriously consider what I believe and be able to articulate it and live it out. I will grant that most of these ‘Christian thinkers’ I have been exposed to have been on the receiving end of ODM criticism, though not all (Piper and some others). I will also grant that I have found some of the criticisms to be well-founded, whereas others were not.

Concerning ODMs:
I can appreciate the defense of doctrine and the questioning of some practices of today. I’m not anti-old ways, and can appreciate that often some seem to try to make it seem as if they have only recently discovered things like charitable giving and helping those who need help, when the reality is the church has been doing that for years. I can appreciate TeamPyro’s ability to be serious while being fun.

Concern EC:
I can appreciate how they try to do church differently then is normal, and can understand why to some degree. I can appreciate their attempts to make the Gospel ‘relevant’ to various kinds of people, though again I don’t think they can really claim such began with themselves. I can appreciate their story-base ideas, though I would wish they wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss propositional statements of truth.

OK, I though of another good point.

Because of Ingrid’s scathing review of Sinead O’Connor’s Theology album, I went out and bought it the same day – no joke. I have been enjoying it ever since.

Thanks, Ingrid!

I am disappointed by the responses here on this one. Some of us are lacking the Grace that Nathan is asking for and proving the ODM’s right I’m afraid.

As someone who is generally critical of the ODM guys, I do appreciate that they want truth, they want Jesus to be honored and that they do read – which is more than many of my church friends do. I have found an new richness in going back to some of the writers they quote, and I think they are right to call out the ‘faddish’ attitude that we sometimes see which at its worst is about looking hip, being macho or, and this really breaks my heart, sneering at the ‘old dudes’ who they are happy to leave behind. None of that reflects the spirit of Christ.

Some good things about ODMs:

-They helped me be more aware of the presence of God.
-They’ve helped to remember to focus on God in church and other places and to trust Him.
-They really have written some edifying, encouraging articles that me and made me aware of things I may not have realized.
-I’ve been really impressed with Ingrid’s site Hope in Laodicea lately. She’s been writing some great articles that have been helping me out. I think if I ever met her in person, I’d find her to be a sweet lady.
-They’ve helped me to realize how much junk Christians sell (lol)
-They made me realize (though not intentionally) that Contemporary Christian Music is completely unoriginal and I should settle for the real thing (secular music, horrors! )
-They opened my eyes up to things going on in the church that may not be pleasing to God. Again, this showed me how I need to focus more on God.

I might think of some more later.

Nathan,

Write comments here about the good that has come from ODMs. If we are people who want justice and mercy, then we should see some truth and goodness from these guys and gals. Same parameters. No negative side-talk. Let’s see if we really are full of justice and mercy.

Going back to my earlier comment, I would say that the greatest positive I’ve seen from ODM’s is in the (often visceral) challenge given to fully think through what I believe and why I believe it. Granted, since they tend to focus on “the 5%” – the areas which divide churches rather than keep them united in Christ – I often come to differing conclusions. However, it is this ‘iron sharpening iron’ function which I do find has value – which wouldn’t be found if everyone agreed with me.

To Phil’s point, though, I do find that their anti-recommendations, when examined, have introduced me to a number of works and authors (Dan Kimball, Mark Driscoll, Bob Hyatt, and others) that I have found valuable in my Christian walk. This is not to say that some other observations/criticisms have not been spot on (or at least close).

Of the CRN writers, I have found Tony Rose’s web-presence to be the closest to Christ-like engagement, even (and especially) when we have differed in interpretation of events and their religious implications.

I think that ODM’s like the following to be incredibly helpful and Christ-like:

* Reasons to Believe
* Ravi Zacharias International Ministries
* The Christian Research Institute
* Stand to Reason
* Walter Martin’s Religious Info Net

But again, those aren’t the ones we normally deal with here…

nathan,

Chris P failed completely! He did not state one possitive thing about this site. LOL!

I do admit I have a difficult time finding any “good” from SOL (whatever version of the week) or CRN… On occasion someone might write a well written article, but these are the last places I go for teaching, knowledge on a subject or person or whatever… most the time I go there and either laugh at them or get angry….

I did really try to state that THESE SITES COULD BE GREAT… if they began to care about being discerning…

I see the good from this site, (in spite of “hateful” people like me… that one is for Chris P.) have brought out more valid points and “hit” much more than “miss” and seem to be very much less inclined to go on a personal attack.

So, I would say Chris P is about 1/4 right about this site.

Be blessed,
iggy

Nathan,

To Phil’s next point, in many ways, the ODM’s accurately fit one or more of the seven types of pharisees (and not the good one) from contemporary first century literature (more here):

1. The Shoulder (or Shechemite) Pharisee: This type of pharisee was one who wore his good deeds on his shoulder – on display for all men to see. Jesus opens his primary criticism of Pharisees in Matthew, with the mention of the shoulder – possibly a reference to this commonly-labelled type of Pharisee

They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. (Matthew 23:4)

2. The Wait-a-little Pharisee: This type of pharisee would want to wait to see how a situation played out before acting in any matter. While he agreed with Pharisee theology, he would always fall short in practice of his ‘belief’ because he wasn’t sure if he should/could/wanted to act. This type of Pharisee liked the prestige brought about by being a religious leader, but didn’t like what it actually required.

Everything they do is done for men to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long; they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; they love to be greeted in the marketplaces and to have men call them ‘Rabbi.’ (Matthew 23:5-7)

3. The Blind (or Bruised and Bleeding) Pharisee: This type of Pharisee was typified by the idea of him walking with his head down or turned away to avoid looking at, or bumping into women (who might be on their menstrual cycle) or other unclean folks. So, because they weren’t looking where they were going, they would end up bruised or bleeding from their avoidance of small things (cleanliness laws) – all the while forgetting the more important laws. Jesus refers to some Pharisees as ‘blind guides’, possibly referring to this type of Pharisee.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. (Matthew 23:23-24)

4. The Pestle (or Hump-backed) Pharisee: Similar to the Blind Pharisee, the Pestle Pharisee esd known for walking around with his eyes averted for the purpose of avoiding visual temptations. Avoiding temptation is one thing, but this type of Pharisee’s heart was wrong, because it was the importance of making a show of his avoidance of temptation (and piety) which was to be criticized.

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men’s bones and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. (Matthew 23:27-28)

5. The Ever-Reckoning Pharisee: Here was a religious person who was always keeping score – trying to make sure that his good deeds always outnumbered his bad ones. He wanted this so that God would be in his debt with the attitude of God oweing him something for being good. Their belief was truly one of works-based righteousness.

“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers!” (Matthew 23:29-32

)

6. The God-fearing (or Timid) Pharisee: He was considered to be a ‘God-fearer’ in the manner of Job. While he had great reverence and respect for God, it was out of fear of punishment, he made sure to follow all of God’s commands in order avoid curses from God and, ultimately, hellfire. Unlike the previous types of Pharisees, both his belief and practice were correct, but his motivation was out of fear of God. It is possible that Jesus’ expressed woe in Matthew 23:13 is directed at this spirit of fear that then prevents others from enjoying the eternal life provided by God

Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. (Matthew 23:13)

7. The God-loving Pharisee: This type of Pharisee was considered to be the ideal – a person who obeyed God out of true love and affection for Him, as in the manner of Abraham. A minority of Pharisees were believed to have been of this type, though Pharisees from the School of Hillel (who died just prior to Jesus’ ministry) may have comprised a majority of this type of Pharisee. Nicodemus, Joseph of Arimathea and Paul (and most likely Gamaliel, as well, from both Biblical and extra-Biblical accounts) were all Pharisees who would have fit into this category.

Of all the groups in Israel, the pharisees followed a theology most closely aligned with Jesus’ teaching, but it was their orthopraxy that was off. History (from Josephus and others) shows that the bulk of Jesus’ followers came from the pharisee movement.

Similarly, we at CRN.info do not consider that the ODM’s are not Christian, nor that they are apostate in their theology. We only consider that their orthodoxy does not meet that of what Jesus taught (similar to what the “seventh type of pharisee”, like Nicodemus, Joseph of Aramathea, Gamaliel and Hillel would have been), and that they are inviting others to become more ’sons of hell’ (in terms of orthopraxy) than they are – just from observing the comments section from Slice 1.0 and 2.0.

If you bake a cake with 90% pure ingredients and add 10% arsenic, does it still kill you? YES. I guess it depends on why they are considered false. If a teacher has 5/8 right and 3/8 false…does the false combat the right? Its like saying that Jesus is the way to heaven and then saying your a non dispensationalist…the view of being a non dispensationalist doesn’t effect salvation through true orthodox. Now, if you say Jesus wasn’t God then your false directly affects your “seeming to be” right teaching!

Nathan’s challenge to ODMs to write something positive about those who they normally criticize had this caveat:

One parameter: no negative talk in the whole piece. No “that’s all good, good…but”; no name calling, no interjections . . .

I assume the same caveat applies to the challenge for those of us who write/comment at CRN.info.

To that extent, Nathan’s assessment of Chris P’s one liner was correct. I “half-way” agree with him as well. Many of us find it extremely difficult to say anything positive about ODMs without couching it in passive-aggressive inuendo and/or humor.

That said, I tend to agree with Chris L: ODMs have forced me to think more critically about what I do believe and in the process, I’ve realized that some of today’s evangelical super stars do get a little (sometimes alot) carried away with their super stardom.

I am much encouraged by the positive dialog I have had with Chris Rosebrough on a number of occasions and while I disagree with his over-all take on Saddleback Church and the Purpose Driven movement, I don’t sense any mean-spiritedness in his comments. And, his defense of TULIP recently was well reasoned even though as my Dad used to say, I still have to knock the “L” out of TULIP.

I continue to pray about my attitude towards other ODM writers who have identified themselves as the Lord’s anointed for calling the church back to their version of the truth.

I still need some help in that regard.

Here’s an honest question that I know will be viewed as inflammatory rhetoric but I honestly don’t see any difference in many of the ODM’s and the religious leaders of Jesus’ day. They remind of a broken watch I have: it’s right twice a day. While I applaud the intent behind this post, I feel to see it’s application to real life.
On the ODM blogs and perhaps on this blog too, the same stuff gets said over and over again. On C?N the stuff there is just vitriolic.
Nathan’s asking for something that isn’t there as proven by Chris P’s drive by comments, namely adult conversation.
My question is why do we have to have found benefit in them. I don’t see Jesus saying anything about the benefit he found in the religious leaders of his day. I don’ t say Jude saying anything positive about the men he was writing about.
Most of these (though not all) ODM sites are mean, they lack the fruit of the Spirit and they are a detriment to the work of the Church.
I just don’t have the energy to waste.

Oh, that was so unfinished! I had a 2 y/o and 3y/o screaming in the back ground… LOL!

But to live by the Life of Christ lets us Live not only the fulfillment of the Law, but the chance to live out mercy and give it and to give to others Justice and to live in that faithfulness to be conformed to the image of that same Compassionate God, Jesus.

Be Blessed,
iggy

Not complaining merry, making an observation

merry,

Is quoting scripture a waste of energy? LOL!

I am not complaining about it any more than Paul did… I am pointing out the difference between sound biblical truth based on Jesus and a sickly half truth that leaves out the most important part.

I think that is true discernment… to parse through and find where there is a lacking and encourage them to go in the right direction… It is not tearing down and then mocking and and leaving no room for reconciliation if that person you mocked proves that the accusations are false.

So, when there is error, I used scripture and LOVE to humbly rebuke the person.

They seem to just want to complain… so maybe you should talk to them as we here are working for a solution in which to reconcile… and they care little for that ministry give by Jesus himself of reconciliation.

Be Blessed and merry!
iggy

In every “movement” there must be some discernment concerning error, both from within and without. Many of the odm sites see error in everything and never any in themselves. Many of the emergents do not see error in anything except in those who see error.

This is a problem.

I’m sorry to hear you’re so abused, Iggy! Do you pray for these people much? I find it helps to talk with God about people who frustrate me. It’s too bad this is the internet. They might listen to you better if you talk with them face to face. Oh well.

SWEET! Keep on at it! Next time ask him specifically what he needs prayer for. If he says nothing it means that he’d ask for God’s protection from YOU if you’re apparently his NEMESIS. Lol kidding. Kidding.

I’d comment at Ken’s site too but he doesn’t give that option. I pray that God will give him and everyone a loving heart.