Dwayna begins her latest post with a question

What do the fallen Hollywood stars have in common with the “Jesus People”?

The answer: pretty much nothing. Although she would love to make that connection. She reads in In Touch Magazine about the “spiritual jewelry” of Hollywood celebrities such as Angelina Jolie and Meredith Kahn. It goes over everything from Dia De Los Muertos charms to Buddhist rings. She then makes an illogical link to the punk style jewelry sold at the Christian music festival, Cornerstone. For the life of me, I cannot get her logic.

Although, her tech tags are always amusing. This falls into the category of Abominations, Youth Ministry, Apologetics, Christian Authenticity, and Synergism. Yikes!

  • Share/Bookmark
This entry was posted on Tuesday, October 23rd, 2007 at 8:57 pm and is filed under Christian Living, Dwayna, Linked Articles, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, What Can You Say?. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
+/- Collapse/Expand All

79 Comments(+Add)

1   Rick Frueh    
October 24th, 2007 at 9:06 am

I continue to wonder why what the lost people do concerns us. Who cares what religious jewelry they wear? They are easy targets for our ridicule both in words and posters. How smug is the grace born church?

2   shammah ben agee    http://endtheapostasy.blogspot.com
October 24th, 2007 at 9:40 am

I believe that Dwaynas point is the church is simply imitating the pagan world.
You call it being relevant,touching the culture and/or contextualization. I call it nonsense.

3   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 24th, 2007 at 9:43 am

So, if Macy’s was selling some jewelry and a Christian jewlery maker made some similar jewelry, would it be wrong?

4   Joe Martino    http://www.joemartino.name
October 24th, 2007 at 9:52 am

ah, ben I missed you

5   Rick Frueh    
October 24th, 2007 at 9:57 am

And this brings up a principle about which I admit uncertainty. When some of his disciples told Jesus that some were baptizing converts who were not with their group the Lord said if they were not against Him they were for Him.

So using Rick Warren as an example (I do not know the Jesus people) I believe people get saved in the purpose driven approach as well as I believe there are many shallow conversions. So when I speak out against what I consider an overly pragmatic approach when does my speech hinder any true conversions and with what measure do I correct without going further than God desired?

This is a sensitive part of any discernment, and let’s be honest we all practice discernment. I will write a longer post on this but this is something that we all should consider. Maybe someone will get saved at a Cornerstone event even though I have many objections to it, but I still do not believe a nuclear bulldozer approach is the way in some of these issues.

6   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 24th, 2007 at 10:01 am

I believe that Dwaynas point is the church is simply imitating the pagan world.
You call it being relevant,touching the culture and/or contextualization. I call it nonsense.

I agree. I can’t believe the church now has dedicated buildings for worship. If that’s not imitating the pagan world, I don’t know what is.

7   Joe Martino    http://www.joemartino.name
October 24th, 2007 at 10:06 am

Tim,
I knew you’d come around!

8   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 24th, 2007 at 10:06 am

In one sense this is a question of the chicken or the egg. Did Christians take pagan symbols and incorporate them, or did pagans take things and desecrate them? That argument could go on for a long time.

The one symbol I look at is the cross. Jesus took a symbol of death and punishment and turned it into a symbol of life and hope. It wasn’t uncommon for failed revolutionaries to be crucified on crosses during Jesus’ day. The cross was meant to be a warning to the people to keep in check or suffer the wrath of the Roman Empire. Through His death and resurrection, Jesus used the cross to show us that the “weakness of God is stronger than man’s strength”.

9   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 24th, 2007 at 10:09 am

Joe,
Come talk to me when you’ve repented of the apostate teaching of the hollow building. You’ve embraced the cult of mystics and pagans temple building!

10   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 24th, 2007 at 10:11 am

All this is just silliness. Taking areas of freedom and slapping an anti-Biblical requirement on them perverts the gospel. A good reading of Galatians is in order.

11   Phil Miller    http://veritasfellowship.blogspot.com
October 24th, 2007 at 10:19 am

Tim,
It is silly.

I remember one time an older lady at my parents church told my brother, who was like 8 at the time, that he had a demon on his back. What she was referring to was that he was wearing a t-shirt that had a picture of Darth Vader on it. Of course my brother was freaked out because he thought she meant an actual demon.

Stupid, stupid people.

12   Jimmy    http://www.relevantchristian.com
October 24th, 2007 at 10:21 am

When I read those articles it all sounds like…blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah….well…you get my point.

13   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 24th, 2007 at 11:19 am

She then makes an illogical link to the punk style jewelry sold at the Christian music festival, Cornerstone.

not quite…

she is talking about there being a day of the day festival/tent at cornerstone in 2006. she had multiple posts a couple of years ago about the “situation.”

of course, her attacks were wrong back then just they are wrong now, but the connection is more logical than you make it out to be.

14   Timothy Bell    
October 24th, 2007 at 11:44 am

It’s Day of the “Dead”. The logic is how Hollywood stars love Day of the Dead jewelry and the DOTD theme reminded Dwayna of the Cornerstone 2006 DOTD event they had on. It wasn’t so much about “punk” style jewelry but death-themed jewelry.

15   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 24th, 2007 at 11:50 am

It’s Day of the “Dead”.

oops… that is what meant. i love typos.

16   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 1:37 pm

Ms Litz hair is red… we know that Satanic flag has red prominently on it.

A true witch has red hair as this WICCAN states:

The typical witch will dye her hair red for all true witches have red hair, symbolic of Isis who was figured in Egypt with red hair and in the red heifer her sacred image (if she does not dye her hair red if it is not red, she is only a pretend witch).

So since Ms. Litz has an obsession and has red hair she must be a witch!

Be blessed,
iggy

17   Kevin I    
October 24th, 2007 at 2:05 pm

I always have to stretch myself the furthest on Dwayna’s articles to beging to even comprehend them.

This is another harp on the Imaginarium’s Day of the Dead event and I have to tell you Dwayna blowing a gasket over all that had some fruit in my life and ministry.

I learned about the Imaginarium through reading her entries, went out found what it was, fell in love with it, corresponded with many involved with the original event, found a lot of encouragment in what they where doing and discussions I had with them since and have even used a few of the exercises and points in their Day of the Dead event in my ministry and they have been very helpful, especially right now as many in our group have been dealing with some very painful losses.

So as much as I puzzle over Dwayna’s entries, I have to say she pints me to some really cool stuff (but not with this partiurlarly stale and confusing slam)

18   Timothy Bell    
October 24th, 2007 at 2:32 pm

Iggy, of course, most red-head women are not witches.

Kevin, I am not a believer in the end justifies the means philosophy. A question in my mind is, did you have an issue with Dwayna in the first place before you went to the Days of the Dead event in that you wanted to “prove” Dwayna wrong by saying “Look! They helped me (us) so therefore they must be doing something right?” What was wrong with turning to the Bible for dealing with painful losses?

19   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 2:43 pm

TB,

DUH!!!!!! THAT IS THE POINT! LOL!

i am using the logic that Ms Litz uses and used here… LOL!

I mean even it you read the source I got this from they say it… yet instead of giving the whole paragraph I only gave what i wanted you to see… or in the case of Ms Litz, what she can only see.

It is this sort of lame brain and almost insulting articles she writes that even if she is like a broken clock and right twice a day, I cannot trust or will not trust her points as the rest of the stuff is hogwash covered with whitewash covered with a thick layer of self righteousness that should make one wonder if she understands Grace and Mercy… let alone the true power of the Blood of Jesus.

But, I suppose you are here to defend her again and tell me how wonderful she is…

Yet, until she takes a stand and answers some questions… she is guilty by association… and should dye here hair another color to not lead others astray into witchcraft! LOL!

Her attacks are truly unchristian… in fact I see them as Satanic… out of some oppression that Satan has on her.

That last sentence I do beleive!

be blessed,
iggy

20   Timothy Bell    
October 24th, 2007 at 3:02 pm

Iggy, using the Days of the Dead ceremonies as if it is Christian hardly compares to having genetically-determined red hair. DOTD have no place in a supposed Christian festival.

You got some serious issues to be making the statements in your last post above.

21   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 24th, 2007 at 3:08 pm

Tim Bell,
Your disagreement with Mr. Shelton aside, why do you always seem to defend Ms. Lutz most vigorously? Are you related to her? Is she a special friend?

22   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 3:09 pm

TB,

To have a friend who may be being oppressed by Satan… and do nothing is worse.

I think you missed everything I stated.

Her logic is damaged by her oppression…

Kevin WHO ATTENED THE EVENT… stated above:

I learned about the Imaginarium through reading her entries, went out found what it was, fell in love with it, corresponded with many involved with the original event, found a lot of encouragment in what they where doing and discussions I had with them since and have even used a few of the exercises and points in their Day of the Dead event in my ministry and they have been very helpful, especially right now as many in our group have been dealing with some very painful losses.

Now Tim, did you go to the event? Did you see it and experience it? Are you taking it all by second hand?

If it is second hand and it was only by Ms Litz, then it is to be suspect as i have talked to those at the event who had great things to say!

So, is all your info from Ms Litz?

If not, then I think I have a better case than you do in that she may be delusional.

Be Blessed,
iggy

23   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 24th, 2007 at 3:13 pm

More silliness. It must take a lot of work to put such a tight straight jacket on the freedom of the gospel.

24   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 3:16 pm

“If not” should be “if so”

“If not, then I think I have a better case than you do in that she may be delusional.”

Now, Tim, I want to clarify… I am not saying she is stupid or ignorant or anything like that… I am saying Satanic oppression is serious and is dangerous… mostly to that person. If she experiences great depression… then watch out for her… she needs help and the sooner the better…

The worst thing a friend can do in a Satanic oppression situation is to let that friend just be… by delusional i mean that Satan has clouded her view from seeing reality as it is and it is always painted with a Satanic theme. A christian is not to walk that way, they are to walk in the Joy and Peace of God, not depression.

IF she is depressed a lot, get her help now…

Be Blessed,
iggy

25   Timothy Bell    
October 24th, 2007 at 3:44 pm

Joe, I financially support Lighting The Way Worldwide of which Dwayna started some years ago. As a number of her friends and acquaintences do, I occasionally send her some web links, email, books, etc. that pertain to her research and issues of life that come up. I provided some relevant links to the Hebrew Roots movement, some of which she used. A friend? Yes, though I never personally met her.

Iggy, I know Dwayna is not oppressed or depressed as evident by her communications through her blog and with supporters of LTWW. Dwayna is surrounded by a number of wise friends and family and a board of directors oversee her ministry. But I would say that any oppression is coming from the so-call Christian people who don’t fear God enough and allow pagan/Catholic practices into their lives.

26   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 6:13 pm

Tim Bell,

The Day of the Dead has both Christian and pagan origins… just like Christmas and Easter…

The difference is that we let it go over to become more pagan instead of using it to promote Jesus.

In the pagan side, the dead come and revisit us… on the Christian side we acknowledge the those that are now alive and with Christ in heaven.

Also, that was nto even the point of Cornerstone… and the point was very much missed by Ms Litz…

Be blessed,
iggy

27   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 24th, 2007 at 7:05 pm

I think everyone is MISSING the key issue here. DOTD WAS NOT AT THE FESTIVAL. It has NOTHING to do with the festival at all. Dwayna just tried to make the connection because I am sure some of the jewlery sold at Cornestone had skulls on them, so she writes

“MAYBE the jewelry designer will have a booth at next year’s Cornerstone event”. emphasis mine.

It is an illogical connection. It is like saying “the satanic bible is leather bound. I can’t believe that Christian bookstores sell leather bound bibles. I bet they will start selling the satanic bible.”

28   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 7:42 pm

nathan,

I agree, and that is why I connected those Ms Litz who has red hair with witches who have or traditionally dye their hair red… so she condones a Satanic witch practice of having read hair. It is just stupid!

Now, what was the point of the exhibit?

http://kathleenlundquist.blogspot.com/2006/07/my-summer-vacation-and-its-aftermath.html

http://johnwmorehead.blogspot.com/2006/07/imaginarium-cornerstone-and-days-of.html

and there are many more that could see beyond the over simplified assessment of Ms Litz… I mean, come on she did a “covert operation” and donned a wig! Is that a sign of being stable?

Yep she is as sane as can be and we should all not ever question anything she writes… because she “is surrounded by a number of wise friends and family and a board of directors oversee her ministry.” Which i am glad to hear she as a support system… yet you forget the bible teaches that Satan can come as an “angel of light”… “his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness”… so one can be fooled by self righteous false doctrines and a pseudo religiosity that teaches “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” as a way to be more righteous.

I trust solely on the blood of Jesus as far as my righteousness, holiness, even my obedience as I walk in faith and not by my works…

To dress up to deceive others is what she did and is still doing in her vendetta against JPUSA… which I think comes out of that CRI accepts JPUSA and that there is animosity against CRI and Ms. Litz…

Be Blessed,
iggy

29   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 7:43 pm

I left out TB’s name in that last comment… it is also somewhat addressed to him also.

ig

30   Kevin I    
October 24th, 2007 at 9:09 pm

Just to clarify (there seems to be some confusion) I wasn’t able to make it to the day of the dead event but I read the reports of it from all over and started corresponding with people who where there running it to learn from it.

31   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 24th, 2007 at 9:17 pm

thank Kevin…

Yet i have heard others who had similar experiences who have attended.

So I still see that the fruit that was born was not as “evil” as some seem to state it was and is.

be blessed,
iggy

32   Timothy Bell    
October 25th, 2007 at 12:24 am

I left out TB’s name in that last comment… it is also somewhat addressed to him also.

Oh, how thoughtful of you, Iggy!

Which i am glad to hear she as a support system… yet you forget the bible teaches that Satan can come as an “angel of light”… “his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness”… so one can be fooled by self righteous false doctrines and a pseudo religiosity that teaches “Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!” as a way to be more righteous.

Oh! So her friends and support system are servants of Satan? You speak waaaay out of line there, Iggy! People are continually being saved to Jesus Christ through the ministry of Lighting The Way Worldwide in Venice Beach, Long Beach, West Hollywood, in Colorado, NYC and soon to be in a number of other places. The Gospel is taken to the people in the public places but it is not “bull-horned” to them.

I’m amused by this “gotta have the last word” mentality of this board on each thread here so that no person of Reformed or Calvinistic persuasion has the last comment. Is having the “last word” means “We won the argument!??” I was willing to let the issue die at Iggy’s 6:13pm post but now the demon ball keeps rolling to where my name is muddified. Man, it is so easy for lowly laymen to get Emergent pastors foaming at the mouth!

33   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 1:24 am

Tim B.

We are having a discussion… so the last word is really irrelevant…

Now, again you twisted what I am saying…

Paul wrote against the Judaizers… who preached that once one was saved by grace they had to then walk under the law to sustain that grace. These men were believers in Jesus and considered brothers… yet still Paul stated what he did.

Paul called them what I quoted…above. not me. So, if one adds to grace all these caveats then they “masquerade as servants of righteousness”.

Now, show me where JPUSA add to grace and then turn to any ODM and see how much they add to grace…

the add more rules to salvation then deny they do. As far as the last word mentality… you seem to be the only one worried about that.

People are continually being saved to Jesus Christ through the ministry of Lighting The Way Worldwide in Venice Beach, Long Beach, West Hollywood, in Colorado, NYC and soon to be in a number of other places.

Now, are they getting save through the ministry or by Jesus Christ? Many a Pharisee would say take the yoke of the law and follow me… and many did… but Jesus said His yoke is is easy and not burdensome.

Again, they masquerade as ministers of righteousness and preach the gospel… then turn them to self righteous acts to sustain their salvation…

If you can’t get that… then you are also missing the power of the Blood and the incredible freedom we have been given by Grace.

Be Blessed,
iggy

34   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 1:26 am

Oh Tim,

btw about this last word thingy you brought up… Ingrid flamed me then never even gave me a chance to respond… there was not even a way for me to get A word in let alone the last word… here you get your say as much as I do… so stop whining about it will ya! LOL!

be blessed, (and I do mean this)
iggy

35   Timothy Bell    
October 25th, 2007 at 2:08 am

Iggy, we are not having a discussion. You keep on insisting that JPUSA is not wrong in having a Day of The Dead event and considering it good. What damn fool would consider that Christian?

I don’t not appreciate you saying that I twisted you words. You make it sound like I intentionally did something. Anyone else can read that you were saying that the people surrounding Dwayna as her friends and overseers “were masquerading as servants of righteousness”. IN OTHER WORDS, servants of
Satan. I did NOT twist that! That is what you said, you fool!

You are using a strawman tactic again to say that Dwayna and her friends go around being Judaizers, claiming that grace is not enough. That is not what we believe at all! You trying to protect a pagan event such as the Day of The Dead by accusing us of being Judaizers is wrong.

And why do you want to stretch the scope of our “discussion” of Dwayna and the DOTH issue to encompass the whole of ODMs and Reformed/Calvinistic people? Stick to the topic!!!

Me? Having the “last word” mentality? Maaan…didn’t you read where I said “I was willing to let the issue die at Iggy’s 6:13pm post”?? Does that sound like I was worried about having the last post? I let you take the last word in the “All This for Three Easy Payments of $19.99!” thread where you took a an non-apology from me as an apology. But I decided to not respond and let it lay as it is. Back at cha!

Now, are they getting save through the ministry or by Jesus Christ?

What do you think? We do not have the ability to regenerate a person into a Christian but that can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit. God uses people in ministry, sometimes person-to-person, sometimes through written word…my, there are many ways that God brings people to Himself. Yes, indeed, his burden is light!

Iggy, you talk like a Jesuit who twists people’s words, motives and deeds around. Keep your “blessed be”s to yourself!

36   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 3:29 am

Tim Bell,

You keep on insisting that JPUSA is not wrong in having a Day of The Dead event and considering it good.

No I am insisting that what was said to be a Day of the dead event was not that at all!!! It was a look at different cultures and how they view death and then a discussion about that within a Christian context… it is Ms Litz and you who are twisting it into that they were celebrating the DOTD… and that is a lie and slander against JPUSA.

The perception that Ms Litz got while hiding under a wig in fear of being noticed…. was not at all what was going on…

You do twist what I say and that is part of the same issue… I am not advocating the pagan side of DOTD and have never done that… I have stated that there IS a pagan side and that it was redeemed and now people like you are turning back over to Satan by insisting that for some legality that it is all pagan… and that is just anti biblical since all things are made new in Christ.

To add to the grace of God any works… is a work of Satan… or do you deny that? That is what all the ODM’s do… they add works righteousness to grace.

In fact I was rebuked by Jim Bublitz for saying that all men’s fruit even if you are a christian is bad fruit… and only God’s fruit is good… he stated that his fruit is made good because Jesus turns it good… that is not biblical and is a lie…

No one is righteous except Jesus and we can only be righteous because He is righteous and imputes that to us… that is the only thing that makes us “good”… so there is false teaching coming out of the ODM’s that negates grace.

As far as the last word, if you truly wanted it to die at “Iggy’s 6:13pm post” you would have… so don’t lie and blame ME for continuing a conversation with you that you are still willingly participating in…. good grief! You are lying to say you are willing to let it die and then blame me that you have not done that… I do not control you so you are free to NOT ANSWER OR RESPOND, but you willingly did so… I was not there to put your fingers on the keyboard…so please take some responsibility for your own actions…

The reason I do not let it go as i am trying to get you to see that what happened there was not what Ms Litz stated and she seemed to view it as something it was not… and I have noted more people who were there and their view which is in quite a contrast to Ms Litz… so just the volume alone of people who understood it outnumbers the one who did not…

again, where you there… did you see the exhibit with your own eyes? or are you taking this all on one persons words?

Even the bible says that one should have two witnesses if there is an accusation against someone… and you are setting it all on one…

So answer some questions…

Be blessed,
iggy

37   Timothy Bell    
October 25th, 2007 at 4:43 am

You do twist what I say and that is part of the same issue…

Iggy, how brave of you to tell that to me. I will pray that God will punish you for saying that I twist words. Yes, you, Carlos.

I am not advocating the pagan side of DOTD and have never done that… I have stated that there IS a pagan side and that it was redeemed and now people like you are turning back over to Satan by insisting that for some legality that it is all pagan… and that is just anti biblical since all things are made new in Christ.

What the hell do you mean that DOTD is redeemed???? People are redeemed, not rituals. All things are made new in Christ in people. The future redemption of the world is yet to come in the new creation after the Second Coming.

To add to the grace of God any works… is a work of Satan… or do you deny that? That is what all the ODM’s do… they add works righteousness to grace.

Of course adding to the grace of God is a work of Satan. That is what DOTD does.

As for ODM’s, I do not know all ODM’s to speak for all ODM’s. Do some do this works righteousness addition to grace? I don’t know personally. Maybe some do, maybe some don’t. I just don’t know. So, to keep talking about ODM’s is beyond the scope of this thread.

In fact I was rebuked by Jim Bublitz for saying that all men’s fruit even if you are a christian is bad fruit… and only God’s fruit is good… he stated that his fruit is made good because Jesus turns it good… that is not biblical and is a lie…

I have not seen the conversation between you and Jim to comment. But I will say that God works through Christians to produce good fruit unto the Lord which I think Jim is meaning. Yet again, I haven’t read the conversation.

No one is righteous except Jesus and we can only be righteous because He is righteous and imputes that to us… that is the only thing that makes us “good”

Yer a-preachin’ to the choir here. We know this. Or are you saying this stuff to make you look you are on higher moral ground????

… so there is false teaching coming out of the ODM’s that negates grace.

So the reprobate thinks….or at least someone here mentioned that you were a theological mongrel.

As far as the last word, if you truly wanted it to die at “Iggy’s 6:13pm post” you would have… so don’t lie and blame ME for continuing a conversation with you that you are still willingly participating in…. good grief!

You posting at 7:42pm was not needed at all, especially when you posted at 7:43pm specifically to say that I was included in your last comment to the 7:42pm post. SOOOOO….that foul stench you aired there had to be dealt with, back at cha!

You are lying to say you are willing to let it die and then blame me that you have not done that… I do not control you so you are free to NOT ANSWER OR RESPOND, but you willingly did so… I was not there to put your fingers on the keyboard…so please take some responsibility for your own actions

See previous comment.

The reason I do not let it go as i am trying to get you to see that what happened there was not what Ms Litz stated and she seemed to view it as something it was not… and I have noted more people who were there and their view which is in quite a contrast to Ms Litz… so just the volume alone of people who understood it outnumbers the one who did not…

Just because someone dons a hat, wig, and shades doesn’t mean they are wacko. Because of prior events, perhaps she felt her being recognized at the DOTD would be noted by the facilitators and the content of the event changed. I don’t know.

again, where you there… did you see the exhibit with your own eyes? or are you taking this all on one persons words?

No, I wasn’t there and it appears you weren’t either. I took my information from Dwayna’s postings, her links, my own research (like DOTD’s own website: http://www.cornerstonefestival.com/imaginarium/2006/dionysus1.htm ) I’m sure being there wouldn’t change my mind regarding the content of the event.

Even the bible says that one should have two witnesses if there is an accusation against someone… and you are setting it all on one…

Wrong. See previous comment. Also, you are forgetting the Bible can act as a witness too.

38   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 9:33 am

All this over jewelry? I am looking in the Christian book of priorities and I found jewelry on page 1004. Dwayna’s eccentricities are well documented, it might be wise to move on.

39   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
October 25th, 2007 at 10:15 am

The more I read the watchdoggies on these kind of topics the more I believe the gospel has been compromised by the watchdoggies and turned into an anchor that weighs down the souls of the saints.

40   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 10:44 am

Iggy, how brave of you to tell that to me. I will pray that God will punish you for saying that I twist words. Yes, you, Carlos.

I often say people are like the god they serve… and the one that I see coming from the mouths of people your lift up seems to be wrathful and hateful…you seem to want Him to do your bidding in revenge, so pray what you will as I am not condemned in Christ and that I am being made perfect in His Love… so fear that as to do with punishment was dealt with at the Cross… btw I would not even pray anything less than blessings on my worst enemy! If God is for me who can be against me? Not even you.

What the hell do you mean that DOTD is redeemed???? People are redeemed, not rituals. All things are made new in Christ in people. The future redemption of the world is yet to come in the new creation after the Second Coming.

Besides swearing at me, I guess you threw out many passages that speaks of all creation being redeemed…

Here are a few.

Romans 8: 19-24

The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?

Creation itself waits for its redemption to be fulfilled in us… it is not just about us as you think.

Colossians 1:15-20 NOTE THE PHRASE “ALL THINGS”

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Not to mention Paul’s words to Titus 1:15 -16

To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted. They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good.

Now for the rest of your blathering, it seems you THINK you know and that you accuse me of much.. yet all the blathering revealed one thing… you only have one witness’ view point and forget that I have many more who also have the bible and the Holy Spirit as their witness…

If you can actually think rationally for a moment and also biblically, I think you might see things more clearly, but since you are very much under some due stress and seem to want to practice some sort of WICCAN ritual to call upon your god to punish me… I again only pray a prayer of blessing upon you…

For even when Paul rebuked the Galatians he never prayed that God would punish anyone, but prayed this prayer I pray for you now.

Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ, who gave himself for our sins to rescue us from the present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

iggy

41   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 10:48 am

Tim R,

I think I agree… I mean if one is praying that God punishes someone, I think that states that that person is really under the Law and totally misses it. It cuts across Jesus teaching to pray for your enemies and to bless them if they curse you… I never cursed TB, I only pointed out he is taking someones word who has a very skewed view of reality… and he blows his top and threatens me… LOL!

It shows the immaturity of these people and their supporters.

Be blessed,
iggy

42   Timothy Bell    
October 25th, 2007 at 11:27 am

Iggy, you assume that you are a Christian. I say you not, from the way you twist words and pretend to be holy.

You now accuse me of WICCAN practices when you are defending Days Of The Dead practice at an supposed Christian festival. You twist things around.

Your application of Bible verses to the new redeemed creation isn’t logic to such as thing as a “redeemed” Days of the Dead celebration. Might as well say that occultic human sacrifices are now holy in God’s sight.

If anyone is so dearly deserving of being sworn at, it is you, Iggy. I only speak for myself. Do not attempt to extropolate what I do to the anyone else.

43   NC    
October 25th, 2007 at 12:05 pm

This thread sucks.

Iggy, wow. Talk about hammering and hammering…sometimes I wonder if you know how to pick your battles.

TB, wow. Just wow.
Please don’t ever talk about “emergent pastors” as a whole just because Iggy and you are in a tussle. Bad behavior cuts both ways and has everything to do with pride…

TO ALL,
REMINDER: There’s no such thing as an “emergent pastor” despite the “research” out there. It’s not a denomination, it has no ecclesiastical authority, etc….

Emergent Village is a particular network of friends that have no single position on a wide variety of issues.

Some of my friends are liberal, some are conservative, some are somewhere in the middle.

But we are all a particular slice of the “emerging church conversation worldwide”.

Our concerns are chiefly about missiology and ecclesiology. Most of us are church pastors, in the trenches of DENOMINATIONALLY identified communities.

So please stop talking about those of us who are affiliated with it like we have big meetings to get everyone on the same page so we can then plan to destroy the gospel and the bible.

It sounds strangely similar to the way some of you people talk about “Hollywood”…

whatever.

grow up.

44   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

TB,

You now accuse me of WICCAN practices when you are defending Days Of The Dead practice at an supposed Christian festival. You twist things around.

Here is an example of your twisting my words…

I accused you of WICCAN practice because you are “praying that God punish me” which is very WICCAN in thought and not Christian. You twisted this to be about me defending the DOTD… and that statement was nto about that at all.

As far as me being a “Christian” that not your judgement that is God’s… I have been a faithful follower for over 20 some yeas… so you are speaking out of total ignorance on many many levels and appear to not really know what a Christian really is.

I sincerly think you have anger issues dear brother…

Be Blessed,
iggy

45   Timothy Bell    
October 25th, 2007 at 1:15 pm

Iggy, oh yes, I’m angry. But as anger issues? No. But you started saying that Dwayna was delusional and oppressed by Satan just because she has a (in my opinion, biblical) viewpoint on the place a Day Of The Dead event has in a supposed Christian festival. The event has no place in Christianity, period. No getting around that. There is no “getting something out of it” about it.

As far as me praying for God to punish you, then perhaps you understand the word “rebuke”?

So you claim to be a Christian for 20 years and this is the crap you learned? Seems like you have been studying under a Jesuit.

46   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 1:34 pm

Timothy Bell,

You have yet to prove to me that she is not… and that her view is the true one.

In fact the more you rant the more crazy you are sounding to me…

As far as the Lord rebuking me, He can if He wants I am His servant… but He will not do it for your bidding… that is a bit delusional on your part.

So, if one is learning about another culture to reach that culture that is a sin to you? You are so off it is just sad.

And what is with the Jesuit thing… and the cussing… man I am supposed to be the foul mouth emergent and you are having all the fun cussing! LOL!

What is sad is your inability to actually converse about this and that you refuse to go and recheck your facts… I have and am totally confident in my stance that Ms Litz, who under a “covert operation” while “donning a wig to disguise” herself is delusional at best and that her view and understanding of the even is so far off base…

Like the “hug a naked man”… she missed that it was from this video… and not part of the actual event… it was a guy doing it by himself… but she represented it as part of the event.

Here is the video… http://www.freehugscampaign.org/

that is just for starters… now again it was not promoting the Day of the Dead… it was about how different cultures view death and then discussing that in view of Christianity… so again if discussion of Christian views against cultural views is a sin… then you are sinning by being here!

really I think that you do have an anger issue if you are getting worked up over this discussion as I have not been angry at all in spite of you accusation that I am not even a Christian! LOL!

I find you mostly rather sad and in need of the knowledge of the Grace and Truth of Jesus to drive out that legalism you are in bondage to.

But, also it would not be I who would change you, only God can change a person…

So, rebuke rebuke rebuke, but it is you that is promoting slander against brothers and sisters in Christ by defending Ms Litz and her lies against JPUSA.

Be Blessed (regardless to wanting God to bless you or not as these are not my blessings I am asking for, but Gods to you)

iggy

47   Timothy Bell    
October 25th, 2007 at 1:52 pm

What does the Day of The Dead have to do with learning about another culture? Should we also “learn” about occultic rituals of other cultures by “redeeming” them and participating in them? This isn’t how to effectively “learn” about another culture. Just because we call DOTD a demonic ritual doesn’t mean we consider learning about another culture a sin.

So you call me crazy, delusional, and a sad case. Just like the unregenerate world thinks of Christians.

48   Joe Martino    http://joemartino.name
October 25th, 2007 at 1:57 pm

If you two were my kids I’d say, “Enough. Both of you just stop talking to each other.”
So for the sake of the rest of us, either take this to email or shut up. I mean that with love but we get it, you both think the other isn’t saved.

49   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 2:07 pm

And to Joe’s comment I say:

Amen!

50   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 25th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

sorry guys the guy is just to thick to get it… we learn about how other cultures deal with death… and the DOTD is part of some cultures… it is like learning that JW’s do not beleive in Hell or that Jesus was hung on a stake and not a cross… we learn where they are coming from so we can lead them to Jesus…

But, TB wants to confuse the actual events with made up delusions and lies… I will leave him to them and end this as it is quite boring if you ask me anyway…

Be blessed,
iggy

51   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 7:35 am

LOL, Joe. But we both can’t be right. We can learn about a culture’s pagan rituals without participating in mock ups of such…..”redeemed” or not.

Iggy, I’m willing to let you believe what you want in regards to myself. I’ll end here. (unless additional disparging comments are made hereafter against me or Dwayna.)

52   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 9:10 am

Tim B,

the only disparaging remarks are the ones you refuse to answer to or investigate…

and the point was never that anyone participated in a “pagan” ritual… it is learning what another culture thinks and then ministering to them the gospel… in their context…

but that seems to be beyond your reach of understanding.

and i will over look your disparaging remarks against God’s great salvation He has given me and I received from Him…

Be blessed,
iggy

53   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 9:32 am

Blessed are you when men shall revile you and persecute you and say all manner of evil against falsely for my sake – Rejoice! And be exceedingly glad!

54   nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
October 26th, 2007 at 10:04 am

Ok, so here’s the deal. This comments did get very disgusting and unchristian in the middle there. And I am fine with showing evil in the church (when evil is really there). But I have been on the DOTD website, and they had NO intention of (nor did they) practice pegan rituals.

The fact is, throughout history the Christians have taken Pagan holidays and connected them to our beliefs. Christmas and Easter are two good examples.

55   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 10:05 am

Rick, hope you are feeling better.

blessings,
iggy

56   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 10:26 am

What questions are you referring to?

and the point was never that anyone participated in a “pagan” ritual… it is learning what another culture thinks and then ministering to them the gospel… in their context…

So the same people who went to the DOTD event at Cornerstone subsequently visited that “another” culture and successfully “ministered” to that culture because they now know how that culture thinks from this DOTD event? Does Cornerstone/JPUSA have any report “from the field” about the effectiveness having a DOTD event at Cornerstone?

but that seems to be beyond your reach of understanding.

Iggy, I do understand. I used to believe that you shouldn’t criticize or claim unbiblical certain beliefs, behaviours, cultural norms, etc. unless you “walk a mile in their shoes” so to speak. For example, if you wanted to understand Marilyn Manson and those following him, you got to dress like him and listen to that kind of music and the learn philosophy he believes. THEN you can “effectively” witness to him/them (because you “understand” them and know “how they think”.) I no longer believe this is necessary.

I used an extreme example of Marilyn Manson to make a point. You do not need to bring in elements of a pagan ritual or a culture into the church or christian event to understand how that culture thinks. There is a certain danger to “make it all alive” to the attendee, however unintentional it may be.

and i will over look your disparaging remarks against God’s great salvation He has given me and I received from Him…

With your use of casuistry to counter just about each response from non-emergent posters, I tend to doubt your salvation. This is why I made the “Jesuit” comments to you.

57   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 10:30 am

I enjoy his new album “Marilyn Manson sings Your Favorite Christmas Carols”.

58   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 10:37 am

I hear* he was born again until he started reading ODM’s sites….

iggy

*This is the same sort of parody the is has been officially condoned by Phil Johnson anc Co.

59   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 10:41 am

You know what Tim, the salvation card is olver the top. Even some heretics are saved f they morphed into deception, but questioning someone like Iggy’s salvation is a sign of frustration rather than discernment.

60   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 10:41 am

Nah….Marilyn was trying to be “relevant” to the Alice Cooper crowd and ended up joining them and got worse. : )

61   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 10:52 am

Tim B.

Jesus called and he wants His throne back…

Sheesh you are so condemning as if the words of Jesus and the bible mean nothing….

John 5: 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

Romans 8

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.

So where have I denied the Son? Where have I by my works earned anything, let alone by my works lost anything?

I stand by faith in Christ Jesus alone and Satan and your lies and accusations against me only further condemn you and Satan by the very words of Jesus… so that even Jesus does not need to judge as the Father’s words judge by themselves.

John 12: 47″As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say.”

Therefore, by condemning me you condemn the words of Jesus against yourself… so beware if you curse my salvation you curse the words of Jesus and bring judgment on yourself… I for one do not want that to be.

Be blessed,
iggy

62   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 11:14 am

Frustration? Look, I know that I *really* don’t know if Iggy is saved or not. I just take what I see from his answers and make my claim on that. His hate, er, maybe that is too strong of a word….uh, annoyance of absolute statements of faith makes me wonder about him. I have to read and re-read his answers because they are not clear to me.

About a month ago, in response to a question, Iggy used a phrase “living out the incarnation”. I knew what incarnation is but I never heard of this way of words before. Iggy then questioned my salvation if I didn’t know what he was saying there. I googled the phrase and only 7 hits showed up- one which was Iggy’s. The phrase is abstract and not a normal way of conversation.

Another aspect of Iggy’s is his misapplication of certain aspects of the Gospel to the things of the world. Cornerstone can do a Days of The Dead event because it has been “redeemed”? Whaaaat? That’s stretching to me.

So “by their fruits, you shall know them”. Iggy’s use of casuistry indicates a non-Christian, in my opinion. Even Jesuits use scriptures to hide their true intentions.

63   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 11:34 am

Tim Bell,

You either believe the bible or don’t as it says all “things” are redeemed and I quoted you the scripture… so if I was to use the standard on you you are using on me…

You do not believe the bible so are not saved…

To me you are just ignorant of some things and are not that well read to know what I mean…

BTW living the incarnation has been used by many before me… it is another way of saying being “in Christ.” So if you do not agree with being “in Christ” then again you have an issue with scripture not me. It has a lot to do with John 17…

I am not one of the “only” I am one of many that think and talk this way…

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=living+incarnationally
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=living+the+incarnational

If you want to know more of what I believe here are some sermons by Maj Ian Thomas who talks and teaches much of what I speak of.

http://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/viewcat.php?cid=17

I do not nor ever would say you are not saved unless you started spouting out Buddha can save you or Muhammad is God…

However, I do think the conspiracy theories you are into cloud you from the reality that is Jesus Christ… for it is only in Jesus we have truth not in conspiracies… For He is the Truth which sets men free and all else is a lie so conspiracies mean nothing.

Be blessed,
iggy

64   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 11:44 am

Tim B,

It is not that I do not have a strong view of right and wrong… it is that much of the wrong you state has been covered and/or is not “evil”.

To wear a suit while preaching is not better than not wear a suit… to listen to classical music does not make one more “christian” than if one listens to rock music… these are not matters of right/wrong…

As far as the day of the dead… i was very clear that we are not to participate in the paganistic side, yet to acknowledge the Saints that died before us and remember them as in All Saints Day I see no issue with.. nor in studying other cultures to better understand them to reach them more effectively…

Which none of that has to do with me being saved or not which you seemed to have turned this into…

the real question is this…

How do you justify condemning me though you do not even know me… and that all judgment has been given to Jesus… not you? So, how do you rationalize usurping the throne of Jesus and claim that you have the right to add to or blot out the names of people from the Lamb’s book of Life.

to me that is more atrocious than any thing I said or have done… it is claiming you are equal with God which is the lie that caused all this mess in the first place.

be blessed,
iggy

65   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 11:55 am

I never claimed I was equal with God. I merely judged your “fruit” by the answers you gave, how you gave it and the clarity (lack therefore) determined you were not a Christian. Of course, I could be wrong, I know that. But that is the judgement I make for now and I’m sticking to it. But ultimately I know that only God knows.

66   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

By the way, I usually do not wear a suit to church. I have Larry Norman CDs as well as over 100 Christian Rock albums going back to late sixties, most of them I’m selling in various venues. I like some secular music like Enya, Kraftwerk, Mannheim Steamroller as well as southern gospel, country, bluegrass, and crooners (Jim Reeves gospel CDs). I’m not some Marty McFly! lol

67   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Tim B,

That is the trouble with judging another man’s fruit… all of our fruit stinks! even yours! LOL!

And that was the point of Jesus’ teaching about judging fruit… the only good fruit is of God…

You will know them by their fruit is the same thought that Paul is using in saying “no one is righteous not one”.

Matt 7: 15″Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Now note that this follows this:

13″Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

It is that some are teaching another gospel… and in that they are teaching out of their own fruit which is bad fruit…

So the only good fruit is of God… Jesus stated that “only God is Good” did he not… therefore to claim that a man’s fruit is good is stating that they are God.

We bear good fruit; we do not produce it on our own…

Now, besides that, you are stating that you know what sort of fruit God is producing in and through me… which is presumptuous at best and arrogant at worst.

So you misapply the teaching of good fruit/bad fruit and then show that you place your “judgment” equal with God as you seem to go against Jesus’ words again…

As well as the word of Paul,

Romans 12: 1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you toward repentance?

So by judging me and condemning me, you show contempt for the kindness of God… again, I am not judging you, your words against the words of Jesus and scripture judge you.

Myself, I do not condemn you but humbly warn you are rebuke you of your precarious position and bad doctrine.

The teaching you are under mandates you “judge” others by their fruit… instead Jesus is showing the difference between man’s fruit and God’s fruit… and that God’s fruit is the only good fruit.

Be blessed,
iggy

68   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 12:43 pm

16By their fruit you will recognize them.

As I was sayin’…..

69   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 12:46 pm

Tim B,

Larry Norman… I helped move his parents from San Jose to Oregon… well I did some yard work and cleaning for them.

Larry also stated to my wife that she was “Stunning”.

It was because of Larry and Degarmo and Key and Randy Stonehill I realized I could have long hair (which is long gone), play electric guitar, and still be saved! LOL!

I have not talked to Larry for quite a while… though I had heard he did a few concerts in 06…

My point was not that YOU wear do those things but that the bulk of attacks against people like me are on that level…

Really, I have no real opinion of you and have not given you much thought as to the type of person you may be… I only see you as someone who really likes Ms Litz and though I tried to explain that many do not agree with her take and came away from the exhibit with much different thoughts than hers…

I also do not see her doing that good of research… I gave my points already… you gave yours… but then moved into condemnation of me… I have never condemned you at all.

The worst thing I did was point out that scripture states that Satan appears as an angel of Light and his messengers as ministers of righteousness… and I see that those that preach self righteousness as most the ODM’s do, preach against the righteousness of Jesus… they replace his righteousness for their own… and that is dangerous and what Jesus was teaching about bad fruit.

Be Blessed,
iggy

70   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 12:53 pm

Tim Bell,

16By their fruit you will recognize them.

What this means is your fruit is bad also… that you are in no better shape than me. In fact worse as you are condemning me… I do not trust nor lean on MY fruit but solely on God’s fruit….

What I am hearing (which is not saying you are saying this so i am not putting words in your mouth) is that your fruit does not stink… that your fruit is good… if so then you are the false prophet…

If you trust in Jesus’ fruit born in you, and not your own then you will bear His Fruit which is good.

you are missing that you also do not have good fruit… and telling me you do and I don’t… when I became a Christian I gave up MY fruit for God’s… it sounds like you still are clinging to your own bad fruit and are calling it good. I cling to the Vine and bear His fruit… this branch cannot produce anything without the Vine… and if I did I would not say it was good at all.

Be blessed,
iggy

72   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 1:59 pm

I only see you as someone who really likes Ms Litz and though I tried to explain that many do not agree with her take and came away from the exhibit with much different thoughts than hers.

If you stated simply that you merely have a difference of opinion from Ms. Litz’s take on the DOTD exhibit, that would have been fine. But you said she is delusional and oppressed and such. That’s different.

I also do not see her doing that good of research… I gave my points already… you gave yours… but then moved into condemnation of me…

If you don’t think she is doing good research, maybe you can give pointers.

I never condemned you, Iggy. I stated that I do not believe you are a Christian. God is the one who condemns.

I have never condemned you at all.

You wouldn’t be in such a position to do so in any case.

Iggy, I agree with you regarding the vine and the fruit of the Spirit issue. John 15 is one of my favorite chapters of the Bible.

73   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 2:24 pm

Iggy and TB – can y’all take this to email. PLEASE!

74   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 2:37 pm

Ok, at this point, I want to address something else!

Sometime ago, me and someone else were in discussion going back and forth. At a certain point, I decided it wasn’t going to be fruitful to continue on and on. So I said so and dropped out. Then Tim Reed comes on and says that I couldn’t stand up to the logic or whathaveyou and that I was basically a coward.

So, OK, I decided I wouldn’t drop out until someone screams or me and Iggy come to a mutual agreement to stop.

Remember next time, just because I end a “conversation” doesn’t mean I’ve given up or didn’t have an answer. It just might be that it is a waste of time to go further.

75   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 3:28 pm

Tim – You bring up a good point. I think you should carry a one to one confrontation to e-mail and I also believe no one should call anyone a coward who chooses to stop commenting on a thread.

Also, from an old horse, your conversation with Iggy has past th point of productivity. Just a thought.

76   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 3:54 pm

Yes, Rick, it certainly was.

77   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
October 26th, 2007 at 5:28 pm

Chris L,

I already stated… but for closure wanted Tim B to be able to have some substance to talk to me about. That is why I stated above…

You are free to email me about what I do beleive…

But I will not stand to be publically told I am not saved by someone else’s standard.

Be blessed,
iggy

78   Timothy Bell    
October 26th, 2007 at 8:50 pm

uh….last word. *word*

79   dave    http://www.mindfulmission.com
October 29th, 2007 at 9:33 am

What damn fool would consider that Christian?

Hmm… does Ingrid or Dwayna approve of this language?

Does Jesus: “But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell.”

I will pray that God will punish you for saying that I twist words.

Umm… seriously? Wow.

What the hell do you mean that DOTD is redeemed????

Uhoh. More language. I will await the post from Ken, or Ingrid, or Dwayna comdemning your emergent filth.

you assume that you are a Christian. I say you not, from the way you twist words and pretend to be holy.

Wow… and swearing at a person and calling him a fool is being holy? Interesting…