*****UPDATE**** 

Let me add an important point. The quote Ken uses is incomplete. This is the entire paragraph including the last phrase that Ken purposely left out:

“In their fleshly attempt to magnify the sovereignty of God they have changed His truth, formed them into doctrines, and now idolize them. Some of them anyway.”

In this drive by posting Ken Silva, after referring to me as a “would be theologian” and my view as a “straw filled rant”, says that no one can seek God and he uses a verse in Romans which, in context, was used by Paul to teach that being a Jew was no better than a Gentile when it comes to sin and one’s standing before God. But instead of taking my entire article he takes issue with one comment and makes an incomplete Scriptural assessment. Of course this word “seek” is eκζητeω which is also used in Heb.11:6. The writer of Hebrews says that only faith pleases God, and that he that comes to God must first believe that He exists and that He rewards people who diligently seek Him. These are sinners who seek God and find the glorious reward of salvation by faith.

God has given the measure of faith to all people and only fools say there is no God, but sinners can seek God and by the power of the Holy Spirit come to Christ. God rewards seekers and especially diligent seekers. And many who get born again have come with a distorted or incomplete knowledge of who God truly is but the Holy Spirit teaches them. Even Paul told the Greeks that God (Acts17:27) has ordained that all men should seek Him. Many, many people have sought after God and some have found Christ and some have been deceived, but God has sent the Spirit(Jn.16) to draw all men unto Himself(Jn.12:32). His own creation draws men to seek Him.

I have a limited understanding of the original languages although I can use resources, I do not desire to be a theologian, and openly admit my utter dependence upon God’s grace for everything. But He has called me to speak His truth and with that I hope to please Him. I will continue to be open to a humble and complete dealing with Scriptural subjects such as this, but a one verse vs. one comment misrepresents my entire article which can be found on this blog and “Following Judah’s Lion” and after reading the post see if “straw filled rant” applies. We must construct our truths carefully and with respect for the entirety of God’s Word even when we strongly disagree. I do not defend myself, I humbly yet vigorously defend what I believe to be the truth. 

If we desire truth, then let us compare Scripture with Scripture and give complete exegesis to our views, not just a post which demeans someone and quotes one comment. That is not doctrinal exchange, that is Scriptural laziness.

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37 Comments(+Add)

1   nc    
November 6th, 2007 at 7:55 pm

RE: If we desire truth, then let us compare Scripture with Scripture and give complete exegesis to our views, not just a post which demeans someone and quotes one comment. That is not doctrinal exchange, that is Scriptural laziness.

…desire truth?
Only their version of it.
…complete exegesis?
From only certain theologians and eras.
…quotes one comment?
But that would be honest and fair.
…doctrinal exchange?
The loss of monologue implicitly opens the self to criticism.
That’s a mirror Keningridites can’t afford to look in.
When others do it’s called weakness or compromise.
…Scriptural laziness?
Why work when Spurgeon has said it all?

2   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
November 6th, 2007 at 9:25 pm

I’m still laughing over the last line. Robert Schuller, YOU’RE spiritual father? Obviously Ken hasn’t a clue what ANY of your writings are saying! I fail to see that comparison, I can’t see it even in my wildest imagination!

3   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 6th, 2007 at 9:35 pm

Scotty – truth doesn’t matter in Ken’s wprld and there is no respectful discourse. Schuller, yea right. So I can say Ken’s father is Karl Barth?

4   Julie    http://www.loneprairie.net/lp_blog/blog.htm
November 6th, 2007 at 9:45 pm

Oh, Rick, just accept the badge of honor and move on.

5   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 6th, 2007 at 9:48 pm

Like merit badges.

6   nc    
November 6th, 2007 at 10:08 pm

I’d take Barth over Schuller any day.

7   Nathan    http://www.nathanneighbour.com
November 6th, 2007 at 10:40 pm

Rick,

I have five or six merit badges. Ken Silva calling you a heretic can usually only mean one thing… you’re dead-right-on. Ken has to attack people over and over so he can keep his own self inflated.

8   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 6th, 2007 at 11:16 pm

And what drives him crazy is that I am friends with people who call themselves “emergent” even when having disagreements. Could that be called Christianity? Can it be that we can speak our hearts and even have confrontations and yet love each other?

I mean I had that with my own earthly brothers, why not brothers in the Lord? We had fistfights and yet we are friends, and one of my brothers is a staunch Calvinist and the other an unbeliever but we love each other. Again I ask, isn’t that Christianity?

How can hatred, pride, scorn, and general disdain for people themselves be considered Christian? If I see a brother waliking toward a cliff, do I call him names and attack him personally as a way of showing him my concern? There is a part of me who genuinely feels badly for Ken and people like him since they have been deceived while hunting deception.

The devil’s deception goes much farther than just doctrinal disputes, it can blind us to ourselves even if we are correct in our systematic theology. I believe that Jesus ackowledged the Pharisees were correct but because of their attitude they had missed the greatest element in the two greatest commandments – love.

9   M.G.    
November 7th, 2007 at 12:59 am

Can someone explain to me what a straw-filled rant is? Is that the same thing as a grassy counter-argument?

10   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 3:35 am

Rick,

Now let me get this straight here… Ken posts against your post that he states that he actually agrees with that man can know God and it is biblical… but then states that man is not righteous…

I see that Ken has some straw… and it is in that straw man he loves to build but this time really seems to not have anything against you… other than his own contempt.

Sadly even when one agrees Ken finds a way to disagree… which comes with having a divisive spirit… and the last time I read through the gifts of the Spirit, divisiveness was not there…

The more Ken writes these days the more he sounds incoherent, which comes with the spiritual delusion of legalism.

I just wonder if his supporters are waining a bit so he feels he needs to turn up the heat with more petty attacks.

Be blessed,
iggy

11   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
November 7th, 2007 at 7:44 am

I just wonder if his supporters are waining a bit so he feels he needs to turn up the heat with more petty attacks.

Does he now only have 2 members of his church?

12   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 7th, 2007 at 8:19 am

I think by supporters Iggy means web traffic.

13   chris    http://agendalesslove.wordpress.com
November 7th, 2007 at 8:23 am

Yeah Tim; I know I was just trying to be funny.

I wouldn’t necessarily equate his web traffic with supporters. I visit his site often but only to see what drivel he is espousing on that particular day.

14   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 7th, 2007 at 8:36 am

Yeah, but he doesn’t care. As long as those hits keep coming he can inflate his ego that there’s more than just 4 people listening to his lunacy.

15   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 8:38 am

But Ken is embarrassingly disingenuous. But cutting out my last phrase he purposely tried to make my statement fit his needs. That is sin.

16   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 7th, 2007 at 8:42 am

Rick,
Last week he tried to claim I don’t believe the Bible is true. Saying Ken is embarrassingly disingenuous is like saying the sun rises in the east.

17   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 8:45 am

Oh yea, I remember that post. I send out a challenge in which I will participate. Please place in this thread all the different names Ken uses (i.e. man-lovers) and I will post the entire collection. Don’t do shallow research, there is much buried treasure!

 

Things like “straw filled rant” are acceptable.

18   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 8:54 am

Here are a few:

would-be theologian
seriously off-track man-centered new evangelicalism:
spiritually proud Word Faith
ECoD
The Emergent Elvis
new breed new evangelicalism
the cancer of the neo-liberal cult of the Emergent Church

19   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 7th, 2007 at 8:56 am

Oh geez Rick, that is a deep and rich vein just waiting to be mined.

20   nc    
November 7th, 2007 at 9:21 am

I think The Keningrid deserves a hearty thanks for being so entertaining…

21   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 11:05 am

Tim R,

By supporters (working wife) I meant traffic and all those wonderful people (working wife) that have blessed Ken to not have to hold a day job so that he can “minister death and condemnation” (2 Corinthians 3:5-12) to the rest of us. For he seems to love the lesser fading glory than the everlasting Glory we boldly hope for.

Be blessed,
iggy

22   Joe C    
November 7th, 2007 at 12:00 pm

Hey guys, about this ’seeking God’ ‘debate’.

Even with the context of Romans 3 being obviously that the Jews are no better than everyone else concerning sin, that still doesn’t nullify the statement (quoted from Psalm, go there and see the source in Psalm 14) as reffering to all men not seeking God, nor than any man is Good.

The very nature of man is to turn away from God, and not seek Him. This is what I think it’s saying plainly. God comes to us and meets us, like the Father of the Prodigal Son, or the Sheppard finding the lost sheep. I am strongly convicted than Man’s natural disposition is to turn away from God and not seek Him, and to seek himself instead, but that when God works on someones life through the Holy Spirit, that person will stark ’seeking’. Now, is that irresistable? I guess that’s the real question, and I’m sure you all have different answers. And I really can’t say yea or nay.

But as for seeking God, I don’t think anyone does, not unless they get some help from God. And with Hebrews 11:6, the context seems to me to be with those who already know God, those who God is working on to draw them to Himself. The context is talking about Enoch, who believed in God and walked with Him. I mean look, the verse doesn’t negate that God was working on that person who is ‘dilligently seeking’ first. It doesn’t negate that God could have spurred that person on with a tug on the heart from the Holy Spirit. What then do we think Psalm 127:1 means? “Unless the Lord builds the house, it’s builders labor in vain.”? Surely this is metaphorical, and means something deeper, as many men build houses without God.

I am strongly convicted that from the Cross to the Consumation, salvation starts and ends with God. But I could be wrong, if shown to be so.

Does that make me a heretic? (rhetorical humor)

What do you guys think?

Lots of Love,

Joe

23   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 4:52 pm

Joe C. Said,”But as for seeking God, I don’t think anyone does…..

You should see that viewed from a “fox hole” or from any frontline of war…..I’ve seen the opposite more times than not.

24   Joe C    
November 7th, 2007 at 5:35 pm

Scotty, when quoting me please use my FULL sentence so that you don’t accidentally set up a staw man against me.

I said…”But as for seeking God, I don’t think anyone does, not unless they get some help from God.

People seek God when God helps them get over their natural tendancy to run from God and sin against Him.

How do you know God wasn’t working on those men and women there first? Can you prove that? Subjective experience does not count as evidence in a debate like this.

Besides, Scotty, all due respect, I’m active duty, and I have seen such things as well. It can’t be used as evidence one way or another. But thanks for bringing it up friend, have a good day!!!

Love,

Joe

25   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 6:18 pm

Joe, Scotty and all involved in the seek/can’t seek debate…

The Father draws men unto Jesus and men seek Jesus out…

It is all a work of the Holy Spirit, yet a man can be drawn to Christ and still walk away as in the story of the Rich young ruler.

One can look at Jesus and not mix faith with God’s word to have a saving belief in God.

Jesus states that we are to seek after the Kingdom of God (Matt 6:33) as well Jesus tells those in Matthew 7:7-11

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. “Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

So if one is drawn to Jesus by the Father and asks, seeks knocks… Jesus will and answer, be found and open the door…

It is not a matter of either/or but of both…

In Acts James speaks about the salvation that has come to the gentiles and clearly states that a remnant of men will seek God.

Acts 15: 13-18

When they finished, James spoke up: “Brothers, listen to me. Simon has described to us how God at first showed his concern by taking from the Gentiles a people for himself. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written: “`After this I will return and rebuild David’s fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things’ that have been known for ages.

Also to say men do not seek God negates that the Holy Spirit is not active… as Paul stated in Acts 17:24-27

“The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

It is by faith we are to seek after God… as Hebrews 11:5-6 states.

By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death; he could not be found, because God had taken him away. For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God. And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.

This is but a small sampling of how wrong the idea that men cannot seek after God is… In fact I see that the teaching that men cannot seek God negates and removes the Holy Spirit from is a gross distortion and of Satanic origin. For since the Holy Spirit has been poured out men now seek after God.

Be blessed,
iggy

26   Scotty    http://scottysplace-scotty.blogspot.com/
November 7th, 2007 at 9:26 pm

My appologies Joe, I wasn’t trying to make you a straw anything…..and my experieces are not subjective.

You said”I’m active duty, and I have seen such things as well.”

Scotty, USA Ret MOS 11B10

27   Joe C    
November 8th, 2007 at 11:07 am

Scotty, what I meant by ’subjective experience’ is that the experience changes from person to person (making it subjective when related to point of view), and it’s circumstantial, it can’t be used as evidence of man turning to God without God working on Him or not. It doesn’t show anything one way or another. Thanks for the post!

Joe, SSGT, USAF 1A351

Iggy, I very humbly think that you ‘ignored’ some other Scriptures in your post and misused others. Please bear with me brother. I’m not attacking you.

For example, Matthew 7:7-11 seems to be a lesson for those already believing. A lesson on praying and asking God for things.

Also, concerning God drawing men to Jesus…

It’s saying exactly what I was saying…GOD has to draw men to His Son first, before they can ’seek’ God. Now whether they can turn away or not after that is up to debate (see verses below first though), but they must be enabled by God first. You brought up Acts 15: 13-18, and Acts 17:24-27. It’s obvious from the first passage that God was “taking from the Gentiles a people for himself”. He did the taking and choosing of the ‘remnant’, that remnant didn’t seek Him first, He determined to help them seek before they ever sought. I think you did eisogesis here brother.

As for the second passage from Acts 17, it seems God determined where and how they would live, so HE…DID something…so men (doesn’t say ALL men, can, will, or want to) will seek Him. I don’t see how this proves your point, and it doesn’t discount at all that God did something first so that they would seek Him. You have to positively prove that Men can seek God without any help from God at all, and I don’t think you’ve done that. Now moving on…

Now, I also think in order to be honest in this discussion we have to consider these verses as well, from the same chapter of John you used. And this is what I mean by that you apparently ignored these verses (by not showing them). But they’re very important to this discussion!

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. John 6:37-39

“Stop grumbling among yourselves,” Jesus answered. “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.” John 6:43-45

These are by far not the only verses it speaks of these things, and let’s put it all together in context with the rest of the Bible, and I think it’s obvious that God, by means of the Holy Spirit, seeks the lost out first, and helps them to seek God, and that Jesus can lose NONE of those the Father draws to Him.

If man is free to choose God with no help from God, by his own violition…then why are there plenty of verses like this all throughout the OT and NT?

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48

I just don’t see how we can dance around this. This was so obvious to me when I read the Bible for the first time. And it still is. No outside influence, just reading. Didn’t know what “Arminianism” or “Calvinism” was, and I still think naming movements after men is STUPID, lol, and I don’t follow either. (re: that’s stupid, I follow Jesus).

Like I said Iggy, very plainly, men DO seek God, but God has to start the work in them, as the verses you and I both supplied adequately show. Also, I already talked about Heb.11:6 in one of the posts above, so you can check that out for clarification. Thanks everyone for the good talk!!!!! =)!

Love,

Joe

28   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 8th, 2007 at 12:02 pm

Joe,

Since no one had yet to receive the Holy Spirit … even the disciples… it seems that you have only people that may beleive but are nto yet sealed.

The difference
Also, again if you understand the Jews did beleive, but wrongly… or Paul is stating a lie in Romans 9 by stating that they sought God by works of the Law and not by Faith.

The point I think you are missing is that it is all free will now… it was not under the OT as it was either you were a lost Pagan (unless you were the exception) or of the Chosen Hebrews. But all were under the bondage of sin. Now, since the Cross sin was judged and died with Jesus on the Cross…

2 Cor 5:14 -21 is very clear on this…

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Note a distinction in these verses..

1. that one died for all, and therefore all died.

This is all men it is not just those saved as Paul goes on to include them also…

2. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Paul now includes those who came to faith… and states that they now are new creations… and we should not look at people from a worldly view point…

3. Now this is the message of the Gospel and Kingdom…

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.

Not just the saved as Jesus died for “all men”.

4. Again the Gospel is about reconciliation… not stopping sinning…

We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

IF Jesus who had no sin became sin for us… and as sin died on the cross, then sin is dead. Death is the judgement of sin and sin was judge and died in Christ for us… so that we can be reconciled and not have our sins held against us.

Now, to just say that it is the Holy Spirit as far as I understand you are stating… I could be wrong is just those “elect” but God through Jesus calls all men, and draws all men unto Jesus… and men now by free will choose to enter into the Kingdom by works or faith… by self righteous acts or by the finished works of Jesus…. Jesus is the only Way in and it is by Faith… not works… but as Paul pointed out…
Romans 9: 30-33

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now the context of Matthew 7: 7-11 actually starts in chapter 5… to say then that in 5:1-2 that all in the crowd were believers.. I might agree, but they believed that they could enter into the Kingdom by the law making them righteous… which again Paul states: Galatians 2:21 21.

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

So to say it is to beleivers… yes it is, but those who saw that by their prayers out of their own righteousness, they could please God… and Jesus states that they need to seek Him… and enter in by faith… not works.

Now the reason many verses are in the OT stating that man has not free will is because at that time man did not… the Holy Spirit had yet to be poured out on all men…

About the verse in Acts stating”

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48

The ones appointed entered in by Faith… and appointed can also be “ordained” as it was appointed/ordained by God that man would enter in by faith in Jesus and not by works… so the appointed here are those who entered in by the appointment of faith through Jesus unto eternal life.

My point is not that God does not draw men, but that God now by the out pouring of the Holy Spirit removed sin and now has restored our free will so that we can make the choice of works or faith in Christ Jesus… Salvation is all of God and not of men… but one must still freely choose… and by faith is the only way to freely love God as works only appears to appease God…

be blessed,
iggy

29   Joe C    
November 8th, 2007 at 12:20 pm

Iggy, I could say a lot, but I won’t, it really won’t matter, I got the information I needed, and I think you did too.

Just a quick point… “choice” is a work. “faith” is a work, it’s something you do right? How can we be saved by our work of choice to have faith, which is also something you do? Read Eph. 2:8-10 again and think about it for a second.

And I completely disagree with your analysis of Acts 13:48. You made it say something it didn’t say at all, you take away it’s plain meaning because you believe the free will of man in salvation to be absolutely true. I don’t think you’re willing to see the other possibility in Scripture, are you? Maybe you are but think you’re just right, I don’t know you’re heart.

It says “all who were appointed for Eternal Life belived” Not “God ordained eternal life through faith, so in this way, these men were ordained to eternal life by having faith.” It just plainly states they were appointed to eternal life, and so they believed.

Aside from that, you make some good points (I still think you need to reconsider the points I’ve made), and I’ve NEVER heard that the OT people had no free will but that everyone since Jesus’ death and ressurection has had free will. That’s a pretty cool idea and I’ll think about it. But here’s some problems that instantly came to mind. If the Spirit WAS really poured out on all flesh, then what’s the point of the Spirit only indwelling and sealing the BELIVERS? I can understand that the Spirit is available, but definitely not IN all flesh. Not everyone has the HS. I hope I don’t misunderstand you, but your position is weird and I’ve never heard it before.

Besides, isn’t the Spirit of God what enables us to choose to obey or disobey God, and know good from evil. I contend that only those WITH the HS have free will, and that all men do NOT have the HS.

I’m in a huge rush, sorry for the blah blah blah type posting!! Cya!

Joe

30   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 8th, 2007 at 6:48 pm

Joe,

Just a quick point… “choice” is a work. “faith” is a work, it’s something you do right? How can we be saved by our work of choice to have faith, which is also something you do? Read Eph. 2:8-10 again and think about it for a second.

Choice is a response to the initiation that God started… it is only a “work” if one is depending on one’s self and not Jesus…. faith is a gift… it to is not a work…and it is the power in which the Holy Spirit draws men to Jesus. At that point a person needs to respond by mixing belief with faith… as Hebrews states. 4: 1-2

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. blockquote>

We need to mix Faith with the message… that is not works as you are stating by far. It is the acknowledgement that one cannot “work” to please God. It is the realization that there is nothing I can do but fall on the mercy of God.

Jesus stated that He was like the serpent Moses raised up in the desert (john 3:14-15) “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[ have eternal life.”

Those who were bitten by the serpent died unless they went to the bronzed serpent on the pole and simply gazed on it. They did not offer sacrifice… but by acknowledging, they were dead, went to the pole and gazed on the serpent for life… Jesus became sin on a pole (for cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree) and all we do is gaze on Him… by faith and are saved.

To say that faith is “works,” is not biblical at all… not is the idea that choice is works. One can never state “I am saved because of my choice”, as without Jesus doing the initial works one then cannot choose to trust in those works over ones own.

Be blessed,
iggy

31   Joe C    
November 8th, 2007 at 8:42 pm

That positon seems contradictory to me, but I see what you’re saying anyways. Chosing still seems to be ’something’ to me, I can’t get around that, especially when Scripture is explicit that God chose us. I’ll play it safe, and just give more credit to God, and say I did nothing to save myself at all (even “choosing”) and that God gets all the credit, even helping me to seek Him out and the very faith I have comes from Him too. I’d rather be safe in that very plain theology, and say “you did it all Father, thank you!” to God on Judgment Day, and that’s fine by me. Does that make me not a Christian? Thanks Iggy!

Joe

32   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 8th, 2007 at 8:57 pm

Joe,

I see no contradiction as even Jesus states:

John 7: 17. If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own

.

Jesus taught Jews as a Jew under the law.. to show that by it righteousness cannot be obtained… it is only to point out that one is dead in their sins. Just as Paul taught… and Peter… and John… and Jude… and James… the OT.

This is the choosing that I am referring to… the will of God called predestination. That those in Christ, have chose to do God’s will and not their own… so they are part of the eternal plan that God foreknew…

But, still unlike Calvin’s version… man chooses between his own will or God’s and it must be free to be a choice.

So, I also keep my theology very simple… as it is Calvin and Arminius that have made things a bit harder to understand. I hold to the Gospel of Jesus and the Apostle’s teaching. Pretty simple.

Be blessed,
iggy

33   Joe C    
November 8th, 2007 at 9:01 pm

Thanks Iggy, you’ve been very helpful. You have a great night, brother.

Joe

34   Wayne N    http://reignlight.wordpress.com
November 10th, 2007 at 3:51 am

Iggy,

I’m not sure if someone already responded to this or not…

I totally agree that we can seek after God, as you’ve said it’s shown throughout scripture to be so… I suppose the passage that states something like ” unless the Father draws him…” could be telling us that is is God who ultimately makes us to *see Him*.. in other words, we all have that innate desire to look for and seek after God, but it’s God who does the final act of revealing Himself to us through the Holy Spirit

35   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 10th, 2007 at 4:53 am

Wayne N,

We have seen the Father if we see Jesus. Yet, now we see Him only by faith.

Mostly I agree with what you are stating… as by God revealing who He is by showing us Jesus, we still need respond to that. I see it as professing and possessing.

One can believe in Jesus and state so, yet not mix their belief with faith and still not be “saved”. They live as practical atheists. Yet, one that professes and then mixes their belief with Faith, has found the Son and Life… in that they found the Son and Life, are now possessed by and possess this Life that brings us salvation.

We are not our own when we come to Christ… and though are free to walk in the obedience of Christ (not our own… but walk by the imputed obedience as we have none of our own) or walk by our own righteousness and be frustrated… though still technically saved must still remember daily we are dead to sin as opposed to when we were dead in our sin.

It is in the relational aspect of our faith we are saved, not in our doctrinal stances… I am not saying “no doctrine, doctrine” whatever that means, but rather that once one comes to life in Christ the “doctrine” is not “head knowledge” or “mental assent”, but heart knowledge and receiving a clear conscience and the mind of Christ. He becomes our very Life and we are new creations… the new man.

We are drawn by the Father to Jesus by the Holy Spirit… this was not possible under the Old Covenant as that required one to die before they could get out from under it. Now, we have died in Christ and Jesus fulfilled the Law…every jot and tittle… and abolished it so that we now live in Him and by His righteousness. We are no longer under the ministry of death and condemnation, but the ministry of reconciliation and once one receives that reconciliation, receives Life eternal. If not eternal death for that is the covenant (the covenant of death as Isaiah states) that person chose to stay under.

To be drawn by the Father, is because He poured out the Holy Spirit and that is because Jesus became sin and sin died with Him on the Cross… so that we can become the righteousness of God in Christ.

be blessed,
iggy

36   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 10th, 2007 at 4:57 am

BTW I have really enjoyed this thread… now what was the topic again? LOL!

37   Rick Frueh    http://judahslion.blogspot.com/
November 10th, 2007 at 8:09 am

The reason that Ken doesn’t believe sinners can seek God is because his theology states that sinners cannot reject Christ. They misrepresent the “dead in trespasses and sins” Scripture to mean that sinners, although unredeemed, cannot be aware of God and seek Him. The invisible ministry of the Holy Spirit is always in play, but Calvinist don’t believe the Spirit will draw any sinners, only the ones God chooses. That is not the God of all mankind, that is the God of His own club.