We have seen the Father if we see Jesus. Yet, now we see Him only by faith.

Mostly I agree with what you are stating… as by God revealing who He is by showing us Jesus, we still need respond to that. I see it as professing and possessing.

One can believe in Jesus and state so, yet not mix their belief with faith and still not be “saved”. They live as practical atheists. Yet, one that professes and then mixes their belief with Faith, has found the Son and Life… in that they found the Son and Life, are now possessed by and possess this Life that brings us salvation.

We are not our own when we come to Christ… and though are free to walk in the obedience of Christ (not our own… but walk by the imputed obedience as we have none of our own) or walk by our own righteousness and be frustrated… though still technically saved must still remember daily we are dead to sin as opposed to when we were dead in our sin.

It is in the relational aspect of our faith we are saved, not in our doctrinal stances… I am not saying “no doctrine, doctrine” whatever that means, but rather that once one comes to life in Christ the “doctrine” is not “head knowledge” or “mental assent”, but heart knowledge and receiving a clear conscience and the mind of Christ. He becomes our very Life and we are new creations… the new man.

We are drawn by the Father to Jesus by the Holy Spirit… this was not possible under the Old Covenant as that required one to die before they could get out from under it. Now, we have died in Christ and Jesus fulfilled the Law…every jot and tittle… and abolished it so that we now live in Him and by His righteousness. We are no longer under the ministry of death and condemnation, but the ministry of reconciliation and once one receives that reconciliation, receives Life eternal. If not eternal death for that is the covenant (the covenant of death as Isaiah states) that person chose to stay under.

To be drawn by the Father, is because He poured out the Holy Spirit and that is because Jesus became sin and sin died with Him on the Cross… so that we can become the righteousness of God in Christ.

be blessed,
iggy

I’m not sure if someone already responded to this or not…

I totally agree that we can seek after God, as you’ve said it’s shown throughout scripture to be so… I suppose the passage that states something like ” unless the Father draws him…” could be telling us that is is God who ultimately makes us to *see Him*.. in other words, we all have that innate desire to look for and seek after God, but it’s God who does the final act of revealing Himself to us through the Holy Spirit

Joe

I see no contradiction as even Jesus states:

John 7: 17. If anyone chooses to do God’s will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own

.

Jesus taught Jews as a Jew under the law.. to show that by it righteousness cannot be obtained… it is only to point out that one is dead in their sins. Just as Paul taught… and Peter… and John… and Jude… and James… the OT.

This is the choosing that I am referring to… the will of God called predestination. That those in Christ, have chose to do God’s will and not their own… so they are part of the eternal plan that God foreknew…

But, still unlike Calvin’s version… man chooses between his own will or God’s and it must be free to be a choice.

So, I also keep my theology very simple… as it is Calvin and Arminius that have made things a bit harder to understand. I hold to the Gospel of Jesus and the Apostle’s teaching. Pretty simple.

Be blessed,
iggy

Joe

Just a quick point… “choice” is a work. “faith” is a work, it’s something you do right? How can we be saved by our work of choice to have faith, which is also something you do? Read Eph. 2:8-10 again and think about it for a second.

Choice is a response to the initiation that God started… it is only a “work” if one is depending on one’s self and not Jesus…. faith is a gift… it to is not a work…and it is the power in which the Holy Spirit draws men to Jesus. At that point a person needs to respond by mixing belief with faith… as Hebrews states. 4: 1-2

Therefore, since a promise remains of entering His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. blockquote>

We need to mix Faith with the message… that is not works as you are stating by far. It is the acknowledgement that one cannot “work” to please God. It is the realization that there is nothing I can do but fall on the mercy of God.

Jesus stated that He was like the serpent Moses raised up in the desert (john 3:14-15) “And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but[ have eternal life.”

Those who were bitten by the serpent died unless they went to the bronzed serpent on the pole and simply gazed on it. They did not offer sacrifice… but by acknowledging, they were dead, went to the pole and gazed on the serpent for life… Jesus became sin on a pole (for cursed is anyone who is hung on a tree) and all we do is gaze on Him… by faith and are saved.

To say that faith is “works,” is not biblical at all… not is the idea that choice is works. One can never state “I am saved because of my choice”, as without Jesus doing the initial works one then cannot choose to trust in those works over ones own.

Be blessed,
iggy

Just a quick point… “choice” is a work. “faith” is a work, it’s something you do right? How can we be saved by our work of choice to have faith, which is also something you do? Read Eph. 2:8-10 again and think about it for a second.

And I completely disagree with your analysis of Acts 13:48. You made it say something it didn’t say at all, you take away it’s plain meaning because you believe the free will of man in salvation to be absolutely true. I don’t think you’re willing to see the other possibility in Scripture, are you? Maybe you are but think you’re just right, I don’t know you’re heart.

It says “all who were appointed for Eternal Life belived” Not “God ordained eternal life through faith, so in this way, these men were ordained to eternal life by having faith.” It just plainly states they were appointed to eternal life, and so they believed.

Aside from that, you make some good points (I still think you need to reconsider the points I’ve made), and I’ve NEVER heard that the OT people had no free will but that everyone since Jesus’ death and ressurection has had free will. That’s a pretty cool idea and I’ll think about it. But here’s some problems that instantly came to mind. If the Spirit WAS really poured out on all flesh, then what’s the point of the Spirit only indwelling and sealing the BELIVERS? I can understand that the Spirit is available, but definitely not IN all flesh. Not everyone has the HS. I hope I don’t misunderstand you, but your position is weird and I’ve never heard it before.

Besides, isn’t the Spirit of God what enables us to choose to obey or disobey God, and know good from evil. I contend that only those WITH the HS have free will, and that all men do NOT have the HS.

I’m in a huge rush, sorry for the blah blah blah type posting!! Cya!

Joe

Since no one had yet to receive the Holy Spirit … even the disciples… it seems that you have only people that may beleive but are nto yet sealed.

The difference
Also, again if you understand the Jews did beleive, but wrongly… or Paul is stating a lie in Romans 9 by stating that they sought God by works of the Law and not by Faith.

The point I think you are missing is that it is all free will now… it was not under the OT as it was either you were a lost Pagan (unless you were the exception) or of the Chosen Hebrews. But all were under the bondage of sin. Now, since the Cross sin was judged and died with Jesus on the Cross…

2 Cor 5:14 -21 is very clear on this…

For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again. So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!

All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Note a distinction in these verses..

1. that one died for all, and therefore all died.

This is all men it is not just those saved as Paul goes on to include them also…

2. And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.

Paul now includes those who came to faith… and states that they now are new creations… and we should not look at people from a worldly view point…

3. Now this is the message of the Gospel and Kingdom…

God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them.

Not just the saved as Jesus died for “all men”.

4. Again the Gospel is about reconciliation… not stopping sinning…

We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

IF Jesus who had no sin became sin for us… and as sin died on the cross, then sin is dead. Death is the judgement of sin and sin was judge and died in Christ for us… so that we can be reconciled and not have our sins held against us.

Now, to just say that it is the Holy Spirit as far as I understand you are stating… I could be wrong is just those “elect” but God through Jesus calls all men, and draws all men unto Jesus… and men now by free will choose to enter into the Kingdom by works or faith… by self righteous acts or by the finished works of Jesus…. Jesus is the only Way in and it is by Faith… not works… but as Paul pointed out…
Romans 9: 30-33

What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it.
Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the “stumbling stone.”
As it is written: “See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame.”

Now the context of Matthew 7: 7-11 actually starts in chapter 5… to say then that in 5:1-2 that all in the crowd were believers.. I might agree, but they believed that they could enter into the Kingdom by the law making them righteous… which again Paul states: Galatians 2:21 21.

I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”

So to say it is to beleivers… yes it is, but those who saw that by their prayers out of their own righteousness, they could please God… and Jesus states that they need to seek Him… and enter in by faith… not works.

Now the reason many verses are in the OT stating that man has not free will is because at that time man did not… the Holy Spirit had yet to be poured out on all men…

About the verse in Acts stating”

“When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.” Acts 13:48

The ones appointed entered in by Faith… and appointed can also be “ordained” as it was appointed/ordained by God that man would enter in by faith in Jesus and not by works… so the appointed here are those who entered in by the appointment of faith through Jesus unto eternal life.

My point is not that God does not draw men, but that God now by the out pouring of the Holy Spirit removed sin and now has restored our free will so that we can make the choice of works or faith in Christ Jesus… Salvation is all of God and not of men… but one must still freely choose… and by faith is the only way to freely love God as works only appears to appease God…

be blessed,
iggy