In this post Ingrid claims that Barna’s research which shows hostility by unbelievers to Christianity is due to the seeker type antics by some churches. It is their antics that turn the community against Christianity. What? How many times has she and others claimed that these mega-church antics are placating unbelievers and hence the reason for their growth? So I guess when you want the seekers to be blamed for placating you can, and when people are turned off you can blame them for that also. You don’t need logic for posts, just a blog.
But the continuing thread in all these type of posts is that there is never – I said NEVER – any self examination that results in even a wisp of a thought that they may have played a negative role in anything. You see, when a store clerk is rude you take it to the manager because your money means something and like the karate instructor said “mercy is for the weakâ€. There it is, they have it completely right and all the clowns and Elvis impersonators provide an easy shield from allowing God’s Spirit to reveal the powerlessness and self righteousness of their own entrenchment.
There is not enough blame to go around according to some.
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
57 Comments(+Add)
This post is worldy reasoning.
Ingrid may have been divorced and even a failed parent, but these experiences have shown her the unfailing grace of our Soverin Lord Jesus for His elect. She is only serving her Lord for His glory.
You people need to leave her alone!
Read your bibles if you even have one.
Ingrid’s to do list:
1) Have cake.
2) Eat it, too.
soC,
“Worldly reasoning”?!?
Please tell me you’re kidding here. Ingrid’s rant all 100% about externals and is less coherent (and logical) than essays written by my 6th-grade daughter.
What?!? Despite this article not even mentioning Ingrid’s divorce or failed parenthood, the parable of the unmerciful servant comes to mind here… Writing “grace” and “Ingrid” in the same sentence is kind of like writing “integrity” and “Bill Clinton” in the same sentence – it only works if it’s a punchline…
Thank you for demonstrating the exact kind of grace and assumptions about brothers and sisters in Christ as demonstrated by the person you’re defending (which is to say, un-Christlike)…
The disciple reflects the master.
soC,
Your post reminds me of this.
Leave Ingrid alone!!!
Wow. Just, wow.
You failed to understand the point. I never mentioned anything about Ingrid’s personal life, I pointed out that she blames the seeker churches for both attracting people and pushing people away. She writes in the public domain so she cannot have a free hand to say anything without being challenged, just like all of us.
And I am glad that God has mended her life, maybe she could take that grace and multiply it to others.
I think Ray Jr. summed it up best.
Ingrid speaks the absolute truth of God’s holy Word.
You people just do not want to submit to it.
This is exactly what Pastor Ken talks about in his ministry.
The emergent rebellion against the Bible and the informercial fake gospel that is sending people to hell.
How dare you compare her to Bill Clinton!
Ingrid has integrity because she has received grace as one of the elect! Her ministry is filled with Truth. That means it is filled with Christ. It’s just not filled with the fake anti-christ of the ecumenical church of deceit.
She had to cast out her daughter in this life, but God will cast out the cultish emergents forever if they do not repent.
You SAY you are brothers and sisters but you attack people who defend the gospel. Ingrid may be divorced but she IS faithful to God’s inerant Word!
I will warn people about this website and the way you worship ungodly division and heresy. You will be happy if I go away and it just proves you have hearts of stone when it comes to the Truth.
Wow. Is it just me or do I sense the presence of youth?
soC,
I’ll be sad if you go away – honest!
Ingrid may be divorced but she IS faithful to God’s inerant Word!
Why do you keep brining up Ingrid’s divorce?
I will warn people about this website and the way you worship ungodly division and heresy.
Heresy? Where? Please point that out for us.
As for division? If you don’t think that Ingrid and Ken are not the masters of creating division, I am not sure what to tell you.
Ingrid has integrity because she has received grace as one of the elect!
And let me guess… you have integrity too, right? And then you are going to say, “I am leaving, and never coming back.” And then you will come back in about 15 minutes.
Integrity? Ingrid doesn’t have it. I have stated this before, and I will probably say it again.
Do people with integrity shut down their websites periodically and assert that they will never come back, and then come back within weeks?
Or attack pastors who were killed in a freak accident?
Or attack a pastor who’s dad just passed away?
I really don’t think we need to go on, do we?
Mr. Frueh,
What are you talking about?
I am probably as old as you.
Is it just me or do I sense I am in the presence of rebellion and a mocking spirit?
Is there something wrong with understanding my biblical responsibility to uphold the Truth and contend for the Faith once delivered to the saints?
THAT is now a sign of youth?
You people really do need a Bible and a heart of repentance.
Your upsidedown crn world of divisiveness and factions would be depressing if it were not so infuriating in its stubborn refusal to acknowledge the servants of the Gospel and their defense of the Holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You are given over to your reprobation.
Though undeserved God’s mercy is your only hope.
Hey soC,
I think I found out your secret identity – it was a valiant effort.
Though undeserved God’s mercy is your only hope.
Isn’t all mercy undeserved?
dang.
busted.
Sorry for any uptick in blood pressure.
It’s satire.
Next time do it from another computer. When your IP address came up as a direct match, it was pretty easy to see.
I guess I was suspsicious at first because you really hit all the watchdawggie talking points. The sad thing is, though, it’s not too hard to imagine someone saying the things you said.
I was about to blame it on the seekers!
Thanks for being good sports…
Again, sorry if I put anybody out.
Honestly, I wanted to see what it was like.
It takes too much energy.
I don’t know how they do it.
I’d be a crab apple too if I had to sustain that level of anger all the time.
Ya know, these people make it really hard to parody them. They’re all so extreme already that there’s no where else to go. Kudos on almost achieving it.
Ha… it was you!
See… you get me worked up for nothing. Though I did think it was a little too “perfect” to be true.
I just realized…
next time some Keningrid-er comes by here we might all think it’s a joke…
then again, that type of stuff really is a joke, they just don’t realize it.
oh well.
enjoy that today…
sorry, dave.
You’re a good bro.
(You gonna call me sometime?)
Anyway.
Hug a Keningrid-ite today…in your heart…
ooops…I mean “hug a true Christian” today…
oh, last thing…
I really enjoyed the Britney video connection.
It gives a taste of what the shrieking would be like if these people ever figure out how to Vlog.
hope i just didn’t give ‘em any ideas…
This post and comments are why people stay away.
Ultimately who cares what the un-redeeemed say about the “church”? Jesus saves not the “church”.
Btw Phil Miller
get some new material.
“Ultimately who cares what the un-redeeemed say about the “churchâ€? Jesus saves not the “churchâ€.”
Agreed. Tell that to Ingrid.
SoC,
Yes she does… in fact she is just like the Judaizers who mixed Law and Grace and negated both. I do think she understand God’s holiness yet still misses that she also is unrighteous. She then places others under the pseudo yoke of her own man made laws and condemns others for not joining her. So even if she can see God’s holiness, she misses she is not and has replace the righteousness from Jesus for her own.
I think I agree except we are rebelling against the fake gospel of works righteousness that comes from the legalistic teachings of Ken Silva who seems to have mistaken the ministry of death and condemnation from the Law, with the ministry of reconciliation that now comes from Christ.
She may, but so did Paul when he was Saul and though a true beleive was deceived and attacked not just the Church, but in the words of Jesus, “Saul, why do you persecute me?”
Again, you make my point in the ministry of death and condemnation being confused with the ministry of reconciliation… now assuming you have a bible look those terms up.
She defends a gospel of works, which I think if you go and read through Galatians Paul speaks “God’s inerant Word” of those as teaching another gospel that is not a gospel.. and that they should be cursed… but those are Paul’s words to those who mix law and grace not mine… again… Galatians is what is taught by Ingrid and Ken… not the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The only division and heresy is coming from Ken and Ingrid who replace the righteousness of Christ Jesus with the their own and have lead many astray from Christ…
Again, I turn to Paul’s words on what Ingrid and Ken are doing and if you have ears to hear… let the Spirit speak to your heart.
Galations1: 6. I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel– 7. which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9. As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! 10. Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ. 11. I want you to know, brothers, that the gospel I preached is not something that man made up.
12. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ. 13. For you have heard of my previous way of life in Judaism, how intensely I persecuted the church of God and tried to destroy it. 14. I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers. 15. But when God, who set me apart from birth and called me by his grace, was pleased 16. to reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, I did not consult any man, 17. nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. 18. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Peter and stayed with him fifteen days.
19. I saw none of the other apostles–only James, the Lord’s brother. 20. I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie. 21. Later I went to Syria and Cilicia.
22. I was personally unknown to the churches of Judea that are in Christ. 23. They only heard the report: “The man who formerly persecuted us is now preaching the faith he once tried to destroy.” 24. And they praised God because of me.
Personally I pray every day that we will praise God of the report that Ingrid and Ken have forsaken a gospel of works righteousness and have come to the knowledge of Jesus’ righteousness for their own.
Be blessed,
iggy
(the emergent on his way to hell for apparently trusting in the righteousness of Jesus Christ instead of Ingrid’s and Kens)
Someone send Iggy the memo that SoC isn’t a real person.
I wonder what I did to earn the disdain of Chris P.?
Iggy – can I have some of what you’re on, brother? I was a drug addict and pusher in my pre-Christ days. Motorcycles, vans, and very violent. Hard to belive, huh? And now my son Jonathan, whom you guys know, is a 280 lbs. bodybuilder with a shaced head and many Biblical tatoos.
We are the Addam’s Family!
Chris P.
Nope Jesus saves the sinner! The church is saved already… being that the church is the Body of Christ as the bible teaches and all… (Ephesians 5:23)
And that is what is so messed up my friend. You care little for the lost that Jesus died for and then minister death and condemnation to the body of Christ. (2 Cor 3: 5-9)
Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
Chris P, come and join the ministry of righteousness in Christ and live by the Spirit, and forsake the ministry of death and condemnation that comes by living under the Letter of the Law, be it of Moses or of man origin.
Be blessed,
iggy
Rick,
Sleep depravition and the Holy Spirit… a dealy combo!
LOL!
iggy
Missed the “it was satire comment”…. but what I stated is true!
Be blessed,
iggy
Chris P:
What?!? I seriously doubt anyone who does not care about being a Christian or about their theology reads this site (or CR?N/AM/SOL for that matter).
Honestly, most of the people I know from my workplace and other relationships who do not accept Christ have stated, one way or another, that their reasons for not doing so is because of the hypocrisy and rank self-righteousness of Christians they know or see in the news. Both of these are pretty much on display across your ‘brand’ of Christianity – from Reformed to Evangelical to Roman Catholic – and are evident much less in the ODM whipping-boy, the ECM, because of their emphasis on orthopraxy to match orthodoxy (which is not to say that their ‘doxy is any more correct/incorrect than Reformed/Evangelical ‘doxy).
I think Paul and Jesus would beg to differ with your assessment, Chris…
In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven. – Jesus
And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[f] your evil behavior. But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation— if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.
Now I rejoice in what was suffered for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church. I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness— the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
We proclaim him, admonishing and teaching everyone with all wisdom, so that we may present everyone perfect in Christ. To this end I labor, struggling with all his energy, which so powerfully works in me.
- Paul (Col 1:18-29)
Why the hostility with Phil? I mean, really?
Ghandi said that “if it wasn’t for Christians I might have become one”.
He wasn’t speaking about theology, he was speaking of the pompous, judgmental, and self righteous spirit many Christians have. Does it remind you of anyone today?
Ghandi still wouldn’t become a Christian. Of course if you believe in predestined, set in stone, God chosen election then you don’t really care about being kind, it doesn’t matter.
Hey Chris L., I like your old material better and so does Zan. This new stuff is shallow!
I was gonna rant about Chris P. and his drive by commenting but I was bitten by the conviction bug.
vrooooooom!
pop! pop! pop!
vroooooooooom!
drive-by commenters…ugh.
I think people stay away from the church because of people who believe it their holy calling to be perpetually offended when people don’t say the same things the same way–talk about being just a bit fascist. (I mean that in a technical sense. So save the “name calling” tantrum energy for someone else.)
That’s exactly what I think a lot of the carping tantrums are about. You don’t say it the way we say it, you don’t “do church” the way we do it. You don’t get all theologically hot and bothered for Spurgeon and Tozer–as great as those men were they aren’t the apex of Christian theology…
and if you think they are…
then you’re an idolator.
Period.
And welcome to the club, since in one way or another we all are.
And as far as ChrisP goes…
(some other chris’s bug bite notwithstanding)
By his fellow holy critics standards (The Keningridite Controversy?):
Chris P’s church’s vision statement is purpose driven and open to compromise:
Chris P’s church…exists to win people to Jesus Christ and bring them to his eternal family through membership, to see them grow to Christ-like maturity, and equip them to effectively fulfill the mission of evengelizing (sic) the world and ministry to the Church to use whatever means necessary to fulfill his mandate for us in order to magnify his name.
exists to win people to Jesus Christ=evangelism
bring them to…membership=fellowship
to see them grow to Christ-like maturity=discipleship
and equip them to effectively fulfill the mission=ministry
in order to magnify his name=worship
I’ve written it before…there’s those pesky 5 purposes again and that open door to more compromise (a la’ the ECM) with a commitment to “whatever means”…
I just wonder if Rick Warren and the like all used only hymns and articulated the offer of salvation in the mode of middle 20th century fundamentalists then he would be just fine with the holy tantrum god-squad and their “evengelizing”.
Welcome to the bizarro world of the Keningridites, also sometimes known as DLitz-ians, or Rosebrough-uns, or whatever the current tantrum thrower’s name may be.
What.
Ever.
Again.
Chris P already comprimises the gospel by confusing the ministry of death and condemnation with the ministry of reconciliation… and that is Paul saying that not me. But then again, he only professes to believe… I just really wonder in what he does believe… the heretical teachings of those who add works to the reighteousness of Christ or the true gospel.
Be blessed,
iggy
Oh wait… that is assuming Chris P is not really nc!
LOL!
iggy
I just meant that it really does nothing to develop dialogue. That was my conviction. It still really irks me that Chris P. does that. I just am choosing to refrain from his rhetoric. That’s all nothing more nothing less.
BTW nc I really enjoy your comments.
Thanks…
I wasn’t meaning to give the impression that you were dropping the ball.
best…
Rick, mebbe Ghandi will be a Christian in his next life……
Actually…Ghandi was more of Christian than most.
NC,
Point being, Ghandi wasn’t Christian, and rejected Christ. Even Athiests act ‘good’ too you know, even act “Christian”. So ‘good’ by who’s standard though? Does acting ‘Christian’ make you more Christian than others? Let me put it to you this way, why does a duck quack?
Because it’s a duck. The duck doesn’t quack because it’s trying to be a duck, or trying to be more of a duck, or look like a duck. It’s either a duck or it isn’t, and if it’s a duck, it will quack. Likewise with Christians.
You cannot be “more Christian…” than someone else. You are either Christian, or you’re not. Is 2+2=4 “more true” than 2+2=5? The first is true, the second is false. You either have the Son, or you don’t. It’s that simple in the Bible, don’t muddy the waters brother. If we claim to be a Christian, we must, by nature, walk as Jesus did. Because a real Christian reflects The Son to everyone.
So your comment confuses me, NC. Not trying to offend, just trying to be honest. Thanks.
Love, Joe
Joe C,
You bring up a ‘good’ point
Throughout his writing, Paul shows the difference between doing morally/ethically correct actions and doing “good”.
Basically: For something to be “good”, it must acknowledge the Creator as its source.
Thus, only those who demonstrate love ‘in Christ’ are doing “good”.
In today’s culture, a number of Godly precepts are built into our laws and ethical codes, in great part due to the infulence of our Christian ancestors. This has a tremendous upside for the kingdom, but it has an unintended consequence, as well: With the bar raised for common behavior, people who follow these moral and ethical codes assume that this adherence to expectation defines “good” in the same way that God defines “good”.
Where things sometimes become confusing for modern Christians, as well, is when two individual Christians (or groups of Christians) apply their belief and desire to be like Christ and arrive at opposite ends of a debate.
For instance: Should an American Christian be supportive, antagonistic or apathetic toward their country’s use of capital pubishment? I can apply different holistic teachings, encompassing Old and New Testament teaching, and arrive at any of these three conclusions. And so, can a Christian prosecutor seeking the death penalty in a murder case ‘doing good’, while at the same time a Christian protestor outside the death-row prison is ‘doing good’? I’d say yes.
You bring up a good point, Chris. All true Christians would claim Jesus as their Redeemer but many have different views about how to reveal that relationship through their lifestyle and behavior as well as verbal witnessing. Case in point:
A Christian is treated rudely at a store checkout by a store clerk. One Christians says she should report that clerk to the management because that Christian spends lots of money in that store and deserves better treatment.
Another Christian says she should suffer the rudeness and even speak a word of grace to that clerk in order to exhibit a difference in her life.
Both Christians claim Jesus is her Redeemer but both live their lives very differently. What would Jesus do? See “He stood as a Lamb to the slaughter”, it may give some insight.
Thanks Rick and Chris, good points!
I would definitely lean towards the latter Christian’s way of handling the situation. Grace and forgiveness, because we are forgiven. Mercy, turning the other cheek, and a witnessing opportunity. What could be better? This glorifies God. The beatittudes make that a simple choice for me, I feel. This is obviously what Jesus did.
1 John 2:6!!! =)
Good points all,
Joe
Joe,
My only point is that Ghandi–regardless of his actual eternal state, etc.–comported himself as a Christian far more convincingly than many who claim the Name, “have said a prayer”, etc….
nc,
I think it would be more accurate to state that Ghandi comported himself in a moral manner congruent with Christian principal far more convincingly than many who claim the Name…
Not to speak for Joe, but I think his point about “as a Christian” is this: it implies that Ghandi followed the moral code he did out of obedience to Christ, which is not the case.
This gets back to the difference between moral living and Christian living. Only one is defined as “good”, as only that one gives all credit to its Creator.
I get your guys point…probably agree even…
but (there it is)
when most “christians” in this country see their faith as a “therapeutic moralistic theism” then by their own understanding Ghandi could be described as Christian.
I didn’t want to get into a highly technical theological discussion, but here we are…
oh well.
=)
nc,
Yeah I mean I can see that Ghandi acted more convincingly Christian, though he denied Christ, than many who profess Christ in this country. The only reason I saw the need to post was because the way you stated that was a bit vague and confusing to me and I wanted to clear things up, like Chris said.
And yes I agree, by the modern worlds definition of “Christian”, I think a “good” atheist in America can be considered “Christian”.
And Chris, you points about what is good and what can be considered good is insightful. Let’s just remember, “Why do you call me good? Only God is good”.
Joe
Sigh Ingrid’s wrong again.
Non-christians hate christians because it was biblically told that it would happen. Secondly it is because we have the truth and they being children of darkness, do not and hate it. Simple.
Pretty much.
In some cases. In many cases christians cause hatred because they’re being gigantic jerkholes acting in ways that Jesus would be ashamed of.
I would say that the jerkiness of christians and their being in bed with worldly power (i.e. loving the ballot box to codify their theology) has done more to strengthen the darkness of human hearts…
Hey Mr. Pot… Meet kettle…
Please elucidate us, Renee – what is your point?
Clever, clever, Renee…
Jerkiness and satire are not the same thing.
Nuance. It’s lost on some.
(Now THAT was a jerky comment. See the dif?)