I have seen this video posted at CRN many times. I am not saying that I agree with the idea that a pastor can simply download one of Warren or Hybel’s sermons. However, I wonder if the editor over at CRN would have a problem with a website of sermons from dead theologians for pastors to use. Would they make a video expose of churches that use the sermons of Spurgeon, Edwards or Calvin in their Sunday services? The song on the video says “we need to hear your voice, whatever you might say.” I know plenty of pastors who listen to what many dead theologians heard years ago rather than hearing from him for themselves. This is not just a purpose driven issue… but then again, we have different standards for our enemies, don’t we.
This entry was posted
on Wednesday, November 7th, 2007 at 11:24 am and is filed under Editor, Linked Articles, ODM Responses, ODM Writers, PD/SS.
You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed.
Both comments and pings are currently closed.
19 Comments(+Add)
I believe a pastor can borrow a sermon and add his own revelation to it sometimes. But you are right Nathan, the “devotional” section of CRN is always a paste from Tozer, Chambers, Spurgeon, MacArthur, but I’m still waiting for the devotional “editor”. So what’s the difference?
Same thing about hymns. Why don’t some of these hymn extremists write hymns themselves? I think people like Ingrid think the only things worth anything were written before 1800, most everything after that is contaminated.
Rick,
I believe the “difference” lies in what these men teach. One side is defending the truth the best they know how (not always done on a gracious or loving fashion)…. while the other side is sidestepping doctrine altogether and trying to create a collective religious experience that the whole world is willing to accept. Dig deep enough into the emergent teachings and you’ll see it.
Yes, I do think that the stand should be taken both ways in that they should be critical of those who take complete messages and use it for their own use, not relying on the Holy Spirit to guide and direct a person on what they might say. They will continue to post these things unless they take a completely unbiased slant on what they believe in/ and or blog, which is impossible for any of us to do. To think that we can trust any teacher fully beyond what the Bible tells us would be naive of any of us.
Do emerging leaders agree with their own kind? Yes and they take it further than many I would say….. not always to their detriment however.
What is boils down to is this: Do not we all get a bit riled up when people speak something contrary to what we want to hear? Even you and I probably fight that same battle ourselves. None of us are perfect, though I wish we could one day look past our anger (which should be directed at the spirit of this age and against principalities and not men)
I also believe that those at CRN take to hostile a stand against modern Christian music. We need to point out what is wrong with the industry and how particular artists might compromise to remain with secular labels… but NOT think that God is incapable of using certain artists to speak His truth. … yes its few and far between but there is some light still left.
We need to pray that as we discern these things that we do not vent our hostilities against the people themselves. We should however sternly rebuke error when necessary. Open rebuke is better than love carefully concealed, as it says in Proverbs. I think they primarily are against those who water down the Gospel of Christ when we should be warning people to turn from their wicked ways.
Nathan,
If we could broaden the scope of this discussion…
The video compliments the CRN post that ran in front of the video: Todd Friel – “The Willow Creek Admission Of Failure Was Predicted For Years!â€
In this context, the video is most appropriate and almost prophetic given Hybel’s announcement.
If only the seeker-sensitive and purpose-driven pastors would mimic Tozer, Chambers, Spurgeon, & MacArthur relentless stand for Sola Scriptura…sites like CRN would be out of business
Personally, I find the reaction to this whole Willow Creek thing indicative of the type of cold-heartedness and judgmentalism that people cite for reasons for staying away from church. We have Willow Creek releasing a statement admitting they made some mistakes along the way, and they feel the need to change course in some way. What reaction do they get from Christians? “We told you so!”
It’s no wonder that most people would never darken a church’s doors. If this is how Christians get treated when admitting a mistake, how can a non-Christian expect to be treated?
This is the type of comment I find incredibly ignorant. For some reason the watchdoggies and their sympathizers equivocate boomer mega churches with emergent churches, when I think it would be more accurate to characterize the e/e movements as a reaction against that.
And that is indicative of the overall watchdoggie failure, the inability to dissect much of anything. There’s seemingly nothing but paranoia coupled with shallow analysis.
Translation: Let’s turn up the Law and forget about Grace. Sooner or later there won’t be anyone left…
The sad thing, Phil, is that they apparently haven’t even read the WC research (or they’re purposely lying in misrepresenting it, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt, considering the “research” they put into most things) and conclusions.
In reality, if Willow Creek is about A – Z, watchdoggies have short-handed this to be only X, Y and Z. Willow Creek’s research came out with key conclusions about F, J and Z. In response, then, the ‘dawggies have said “see – WC = Z, and they just admitted they got it all wrong!”
This is how you end up with stupidly idiotic false-dichotomy headlines like “Will Your Church Follow Willow Creek or the Bible?”
If my 6th grader put the effort of “research” into her writing assignments that these ODMs put into theirs, she’d be grounded until she pulled her grades above an “F” average…
Not sure what your above statement means. There are no independently owned major Christian music labels. They are all owned by secular companies. The industry is run by non-Christians.
Let the conspiracy theorists unite. Where’s TJ when you need her? Willow Creek purposes to be about ABC but is really about XYZ…Rob Bell preaches at Willow Creek where he shares some “controversial” stuff. Then Mars Hill comes out with an XYZ initiative which is really just “social gospel”
Meanwhile I listen to deathcab for cutie (should that all be one word?).
Please note the author of this comment does not necessarily assert that all comments contained herein are accurate or truthful. He was talking from the point of the conspiracy theorists.
Can I just say…(and NOT directed at anyone in particular)
I’m tired of hearing the words “social gospel” used as a derogatory phrase.
If your evangelical church hosts homeless folk in your gym for a sleepover…ah, forget it. That rarely happens.
Try this…
If your evangelical church goes and visits a nursing home–talking with the elderly, singing them songs, or does a canned food drive for poor families, or does Angel Tree for kids of inmates…THAT’S THE FREAKING SOCIAL GOSPEL!!!
and even in those evangelical churches that do that stuff…those activities don’t always have a “gospel message” attached–the very complaint about “the social gospel” that gets whined about all the stinkin’ time.
I just wish people would own the fact that they think the “social gospel” is really only bad when liberal protestants do it. Because they’ve made up their mind that liberal prots are bad in the first place for a whole host of other reasons.
Social Gospel=”community outreach” in evangelical speak.
It’s a “code” laden with a bunch of value judgements that have nothing to do with the actual value of the work itself.
I mean those god-awful Salvation Army types. Giving food to the needy, job training to the jobless, recovery help for addicts and shelters for battered women…yeah, making the world a little better for the hurting RIGHT NOW is just such a betrayal of Jesus. never mind the overwhelming message of the prophetic literature in our precious bibles we defend, but won’t read or ignore the parts that don’t fit our middle-class social values.
whatever.
SOCIAL GOSPEL! SOCIAL GOSPEL! SOCIAL GOSPEL!
btw,
if you really think about it…
there is no Gospel that isn’t a social gospel in one sense or another…
I get to talk with alot of people that are not as accessible to the public. We recently talked with Willow Creek about the assessment and their findings. The ODMs have it COMPLETELY backwards. The main findings were basically that they need to teach people to “feed” themselves. That the church can only take them so far until they start picking up disciplines in their own life. But then again, the ODMs have complained more about the big projection screens and music than doctrine, IMO
The ODMs have rejected this idea over and over when I have brought it up in McManus’ teachings. They believe that the pastor is supposed to “feed” the whole flock. In all actuality, their job is to make them more hungry for the word than when they left (in a good way). Shepherds do not feed their sheep… they show them where to get food.
nathan,
Not only feed themselves but others… known as discipleship… but they think that only a pastor should teach from a pulpit out of his “God” given authority…
So you have immature believers getting milk every Sunday totally dependant on a man to feed them… no wonder they are like they are… they might need a diaper change!
Be blessed,
iggy
Iggy and Nathan!!!!! THAT WAS AN AMAZING STATEMENT. I was hoping someone would bring up discipleship and people learning to feed themselves, and I’m so glad Willow Creek realized this! A Pastor CANNOT disciple 3000 people at once, that’s second hand feeding, it’s milk, it’s getting someone elses Bible Study. Solid food is for the mature. When you’re a babe, you get milk from mommy, when you grow up, you go find your own food. Real discipleship happens mostly in a personal one on one relationship situation, like Jesus did.
If a baby only ever has milk, he never grows. I heartily agree with you both =)!
(we do a Bible study here which focuses on personal discipleship and training to get solid food).
Joe
Joe C,
Now don’t forget i am that apostate emergent guy! LOL!
be blessed,
iggy
Yeah you may be a member of the “Ecumenical Church of Deceit” (best term EVER!! SO ridiculous), and a crazy apostate of destruction and damnable heresy, but boy oh boy did you nail the discipleship milk/solid food issue on the head buddy. Good job!! How can an apostate say something so true!?!?!? It boggles me.
lol
Joe
Joe C,
pastors cannot disciple 3000 people? Heck, pastors cannot disciple more than 12 people (and even that is a stretch). We are called to make disciples, not to disciple people. Most pastors make disciples of themselves rather than showing them how to follow Christ.
I agree whole heartedly and completely Nathan, thank you.
Apparently on this website, total agreement is rare as a saved buhddist. Hahaha.
Joe
Matt,
That’s what I was implying by my comment about the christian music industry. Sorry for my lack of clarity… What I meant to say is that christian music is very fluff oriented, as in they only show the one side of the nature of God. Oh, God is love, let’s not ruffle any feathers… let well enough alone. In doing so we unwittingly preach a half gospel to people… No wonder the professing church looks so much like the world! On several occasions Jesus was in the face of those he spoke to and he never minced words. We are so thin skinned here in America that we dare not criticize anyone (we too often equate criticism with correction and reproof in our feeble minds). This is the problem with the church today. We are primarily out to tickle the ears of the hearers… and are not concerned with spiritual growth, which often requires pruning of the individual, as the parable of the vine…God corrects whom He loves.
Tim,
I didn’t mean to lump the emergent church in with the mega churches… The emergents are quite right in what are churches look like today, and are doing wrong. The problem however is that the solution, all too often is gone about the wrong way. Have you taken the time to sincerely dissect what the emerging crowd of teachers say in their books? Most of these men will frame statements in doublespeak/Christian-ese to draw in the naive who are willing to accept their teachings at face value. The more we question the truths of the christian faith, the less that we’re left to stand upon as a foundation. Study diaprax/praxis by Dean Gotcher (an easy find on Google)… and look into the New Age Movement (even their terminology, how much of it is similar and how they support the teachings of one another)
The current trend is that there is a growing crossover between the mega-churches and the emerging church. You’ll find that Rick Warren is growing more supportive of the emerging movement….after all it does fit in with his global P.E.A.C.E. initiative. Caring about the environment and the suffering are noble things but it is becoming the focus of some of these men, despite their claims for loving Jesus. The worlds religions have to find common ground in order to unite under one umbrella. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all about spreading the love of Christ to others in any form or fashion, that men might see Jesus reflected in us, but the whole counsel of God must be expressed to truly love your neighbor as yourself. After all it’s easy for anyone to love someone through works alone. You don’t have to look past that show ‘Extreme Home Makeover’ to see it in action.
Acts 20:25-31 (New King James)
25 “And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. 26 Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. 28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God[a] which He purchased with His own blood. 29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. 31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.