Yes we have come a long way haven’t we… I hope I have softened a bit by your gentle rebuke… and that if by chance, God uses me somehow to lead you deeper into Him and if He uses me… I am blessed also!

Blessings
iggy

But hey…Hell is eternal…I always thought of ‘Hell’ as the Final Hell, The Second Death, the Lake of Fire, after the Judgment, which IS eternal, Scripturally. What happens until “hades” is thrown in to the LoF? Well….”[God knows how] to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment” 2 Peter 2:9

That is the simplest explanation possible, and thus, I will argue, is the correct one.

But if you’re just playing with the word ‘hell’, then I suppose that’s semantics. The Lake of Fire is eternal, which is “Hell” by any other name.

I like you a lot Iggy.(Besides loving you as a brother, lol). You challenge me.

Joe

Again, I am not saying he is not saved… but is a false teacher by the standard those under him attack others… holding the mirror up JM falls short, even as good as he is! LOL! That is my point…

You see some try to use the “false teacher” as a way of saying “not saved” and use it against people like Brian McLaren and Doug Padgitt. Now, I am not sure and have yet had anyone meet my challenge to give me the quotes from Brian that state.

He believes homosexuality is not a sin.
That hell does nto exist.
That he is a universalist.

There are some do teach these but I have yet so see him be other than sympathetic to these, but I see that he is trying to pull the alienated back into the fold… seeking the 1 at the sake of the 99 so to say.

Doug is super smart, but sometimes super smart people miss something somewhere… but other than a second hand statement by Mark Driscoll, i have not read, heard of Doug saying homosexuality is not a sin.

Again, we are also talking on two levels… on where one must filter through Platonist dualism to come to the understandings most if not many Christians just accept even if it is not the correct biblical understanding… such as “hell is eternal” and i ask again how is it when it is consumed in the Lake of Fire?

I may have more disagreement with Doug, but I still really like the guy and see him as adding more good than bad to the whole…

Again, there are some that are universalists… but one must be careful that there are even different types of universalisms…

John is (at least to me) a marginal teacher, but is a great speaker. He also has (though he claims he does not) promoted himself well by the radio and having others promote him so he does not have to.

John teaches many wrong things… and has some very flawed views of the Grace of God and salvation. But unlike those who attack me and my friends I will not state he is not saved… only a bad teacher.

iggy

Just for clarification…do I get what you’re talking about? Or am I misunderstanding you?

Ig,

MacArthur is a false teacher in the same sense that we all teach things that aren’t quite right. I’ve learned a lot from that man. If that’s how he sees the kingdom right now though, I’d have to say I disagree. We are literal physical people, so we’re a physical temple, and a physical kingdom….though, “not of this world”.

Joe

Now, there are those who claim that is not true… as John MacArthur teaches the Kingdom is “only spiritual” now and yet has to come… to that I say WRONG!

If that was true then we are not saved… now… but can only wait to see if we are later. To say that the Kingdom is “only spiritual” is the “soft Gnosticism” Tony Jones and Doug Padgitt are speaking of that is taught by John MacArthur and his minion…

THAT is false teaching thus according to the inquisitor (from another thread) , John MacArthur is a false teacher…

So then is he a heretic?

iggy

The kingdom is not made with human hands, but it is made up of the temple, and we (plural) are that temple (singular). While we are to go out and bring heaven crashing into earth, that “conquering” is not in line with the systems of this world (political/physical power structures), but in the way we are in community with God, and expanding that kingdom.

Phil – you get it.

Even though the evil one is still out there and on a leash, and gets to deceive, Jesus is in control.

Amen.

Joe

Thank you very much for answering my question from earlier in the forums about your view on salvation. After seeing you explain in more detail, I’d have to say “well duh”, i.e., I agree with you, and think what you’ve said is orthodox. Thanks for the good answer brother.

Too often we DO get caught up with just dying and ‘going to heaven’, and we miss the Kingdom right here and right now, inside of us and among us, to serve God, and bring Him glory.

I don’t think you were saying we have to conquer the world for Jesus, as He IS coming back, and He’s infinitely more powerful than us.

Love,

Joe

I don’t exactly know where you get the idea that Chris is saying that we need to “conquer the world for Jesus”. I think he is just making the point that the Kingdom of God is expanded through serving others and by bringing a holistic salvation to them.

Revelation does an amazing job of bringing this out beautifully, as does the book of Isaiah and a number of other OT prophets.

“And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.” Rev 11:15

Also, see Rev 21… there are a ton of scriptures that clearly outline the kingdom will be established permanently on this earth when Jesus returns (John 5:25 as well).

I’m not sure of your thinking on this 100%, so it may not be a bother, but when you assume that the church will somehow conquer the world for Jesus (and maybe I’m misunderstanding here) and that the kingdom will be brought in full measure as a result, that’s incorrect.