Hitler was able to destroy the lives of so many Jews by irrationally blaming most of Germans problems on them. This article from Steve Camp uses similar tactics. He shows irreverent images from pop television shows and clothing lines such as this South Park slide and online shirts, like this one. He then makes this comment

IMHO, this is the number one issue bar none, coming from within the emerging/emergent church culture today. Contextualization of message, defining missional thinking, postmodern cultural relevance, open hand/close hand pragmatics, etc. are all secondary, and frankly child’s play, compared to the issue of the lack of reverence that is coming from within the emerging/emergent church to the greater body of Christ.

He basically uses these images as an example of how irreverent the “emerging-seeker sensible-ecumenical-culturally relevant-evangelical” church(since it is all the same) is today without any logical link. Aside from these pictures, there is no legtitmate examples of how the emerging church is mocking the person of Jesus Christ. In fact, in the comment section, one reader wrote

Oh my, how awful. I expect it from outside the church, but this is coming from “inside” the church (’church’ used loosely in this case!).

to which he responded

Exactly. We expect this from nonbelievers; but when pastors think it gives them greater footing with others within their church or to attract others to their church, then we most “sound the alarm!”

He gives no logical examination as to how South Park is connected to the he “emerging-seeker sensible-ecumenical-culturally relevant-evangelical church. He actually reinforces the idea that these images are coming from within the church. it seems that there are a number of articles coming out from the ODMs that are outright lies and far-fetched stories. Maybe the Christian tabloid business isn’t doing so well these days.

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This entry was posted on Friday, November 16th, 2007 at 11:41 am and is filed under Emergent Church, Linked Articles, ODM Writers, PD/SS, Steve Camp, What Can You Say?. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. Both comments and pings are currently closed.
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25 Comments(+Add)

1   nc    
November 16th, 2007 at 12:21 pm

I guess he needed a pre-Thanksgiving reminder of his own righteousness so he had something to be thankful for.

2   nc    
November 16th, 2007 at 12:27 pm

I don’t know if we should trot out Hitler…ya know?

3   Joe C    
November 16th, 2007 at 12:37 pm

-looks high to heaven-

‘God, I thank you that I am not like other men—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’

That could just as easily be mad-libbed to say..

“God I thank you that I am not like other men- the seekers, the one’s who are sensitive to the seekers, the relevant, the punk rockers, those who watch television, those with piercings, the cussers, or even like this “emergent” here. I post on my holy blog twice a day, and give a tenth of my time to Bible study each day!”

“God have mercy on me, a sinner…”


4   Kevin I    
November 16th, 2007 at 12:38 pm

just a note that that south park image isn’t from the show itself, it appears to just be a picture made using many of the common south park character creators on the internet. You can tell this because of the size of the image and because every part of the picture is made up from options on the most common south park character creator.

The “jesus” in South Park the show itself, is much taller.
I know it’s a small point, and there are plenty of examples of South Park making fun of Jesus (along with every other mainstream deity) but I figured I’d put it out there.

5   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 16th, 2007 at 12:39 pm

Yeah, the Hitler comparison is a bit extreme. Goebbels would have been more apt.

6   Joe C    
November 16th, 2007 at 12:49 pm

Hitler comparison is fine, we’re not politicians, and as long as it’s used as a hyperbole, I don’t see the harm. And extreme example to illustrate a point, Jesus did it all the time, and no one’s out there cutting their hands off, are they? I don’t think he’s calling them Hitler, at all. I didn’t get that out of the post at all.



7   Chris L    http://www.fishingtheabyss.com/
November 16th, 2007 at 1:18 pm

Actually, I avoid bringing Hitler into the picture, as it pretty much invokes Godwin’s Law from the get-go…

Steve’s handwringing, hypocrisy and Driscoll-hatred are pretty well documented, and this post of his is as off-base as the rest of his anti-ECM tirades…

8   Joe C    
November 16th, 2007 at 1:33 pm

That law is hysterical but so true. Haha.

9   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 16th, 2007 at 4:55 pm

Steve is on honest dude… from the church of plank-eye…

He hates Driscoll for being a foul mouthed person and then sings of the great things foul mouthed Luther did… and has a best selling biblical song (yeah, biblical because the nails in the Wittenburg door seem more important to him than the nails in Christs hands)

It is hypocrisy to attack Driscoll and lift up Luther as a great man and whitewash Luther’s use of profanity as a habit and in his letters and writings… let alone his hatred and anti Semitic statements against the Jews…

But then there is that Larry King interview where John MacArthur does some major back peddling over his anti Semitic statements… so since Steve goes to that church, maybe Hitler is not that far of a stretch… if that insulted you… it was satire = )… if not it was something to think about! LOL!

I used to be very blessed by Steve’ early music, but for man and many others… he leaves a bad taste in my mouth…


10   nc    
November 16th, 2007 at 6:35 pm

You leave Mr. Camp alone.
He wrote the 107 theses that revolutionized the CCM world.
12 more than Luther!!

Too bad nobody in CCM knows about it.
Or anybody really knows anything about CCM.

The following may be snarky, but I’ve had it with that tripe

Listening to a professional singer for theological direction is like asking your mechanic about relationship advice simply because he’s good at fixing your car.

Just cuz he wrote some songs that used to be popular doesn’t mean he is qualified to speak to other things–he’s entitled to his opinion, but it’s not the same thing. Witness his own profuse copy/pasting and regurgitation of received theological formulations.

Mr. Camp occasionally whines about the “elitism” of academic theology. Wow. People just weren’t bowled over by the ability of a CCM has-been to restate Reformed formulations?

If he spent his time getting a theological education with a view to the expansive history of the last 2000 years in Christian theology, he might have more credibility. Call that snobby? I call it making sure I’m led by the qualified.

The sad thing is that the only places he would probably associate with wouldn’t represent a real theological education. They’d be more like “trade schools for pastors”.

11   Joe C    
November 16th, 2007 at 6:52 pm

Snark-tastic, nc. You could have said as much without becoming SnarkOtron, the harbrigner of DOOM (as opposed to Optimistic Prime). Just a personal opinion.


12   john Frerich    
November 16th, 2007 at 7:26 pm

How does the emerging church “mock” Jesus Christ? How about its theology, when one can actually pin some of its major “conversants” on doctrine? Rejecting any form of absolute truth, rejecting the substitutionary atonement of Christ on the cross, rejecting His return to judge the earth and its inhabitants, a “univeralist” view of salvation-that all can be saved in any religion, rejection of the idea of a real heaven and hell? That is only the starting point.

Perhaps a revisiting of the command of Christ in John 13 to love the brethren, “by this the world will know you are my disciples, by your love for one another.” The way so many in this and related forums talk of others is an absolute tragedy. What of the fruits of the Spirit-gentleness, patience, kindness? Sadly lacking, on both sides.

We are called to contend earnestly for the faith but have we forgotten what it means to be “born again?” We can vigoriously oppose those who oppose truth without destroying one another and looking exactly like the world we are supposed to be free from.

Let’s give it a try. After all, our battle is not against flesh and blood or have we forgotten that?

13   Joe C    
November 16th, 2007 at 7:47 pm

John, all due respect, not that I’m an emergent or anything…

But even I know that’s a straw man argument. Do some research, read some of their books, meet and converse with some of their people, and then try again.

As for the rest of your post, let’s fight for the Truth. Absolutely.



14   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 16th, 2007 at 8:23 pm

That’s a ridiculous assertion about the e/e churches. You might want to check yourself before you start repeating lies you’ve heard about your brothers.

15   john Frerich    
November 16th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

I have read the books, I have read the authors, I have read “Everything Must Change” among many others. The bad thing about writing a book is that you actually have to say things that can be quoted; you pin yourself to a traceable utterance.
I have researched for several years now and can back up every statement with quotes in context. It would behoove us all to not stand in defense of a man or woman but in defense of truth and Jesus Christ. Even Rick Warren has said in public, “Those fundamentalists who take the bible literally are the enemy.” Not that this quote will make the cover of Time or Fox News but he has said it. Those who stand in the way of this “new reformation” are the enemies. I seem to have seen this type of thought originating with Augustine and continued throughout church history: unity in conflict with purity. It ought to be most illuminating to talk with those Donatists and Anabaptists and Waldenses who were murdered for opposing ‘Unity” at the expense of doctrinal purity.
Show me where I am wrong in my assertations. It is getting very scary in light of the prophesized end times delusion. By the way, that is another characteristic of the Emerging Movement, a despising of bilbicla prophesy. Many of the “names” in this are on record saying as such, including Warren.

16   Tim Reed    http://churchvoices.com
November 16th, 2007 at 10:16 pm

Hey there John-o, post away. More watchdoggie crap for the toilet.

17   nc    
November 16th, 2007 at 10:39 pm

Joe C,

That is tooo funny…

18   iggy    http://wordofmouthministries.blogspot.com/
November 16th, 2007 at 11:14 pm


It is not the “literalism” but the out of context literalism as well as the pick n choose method of most Non emerging of what they take as literal…

I found (and as well as actually being one of those evil emergent guys) that I now take the bible MORE literal than before but with MORE understanding of the context.

So, before you cast huge stones and straw men… go and read some of the earlier book by McLaren. These will help you understand from where he built on.

It is not a replacement (well not all of it, though I think what most “left behind” Christians miss is that they do need to replace that view with the biblical view) it is adding and complimenting… it is not getting rid of substitionary atonement but understanding that the Gospel of Mark does not teach that but teaches Christus Victor from which we get substitionary atonement from… it is a fuller view.

Again, you state you have read a book… good, but you also miss that is the view of that person and not the view of every single emerging folk out there… in fact many are not and have not read any McLaren at all and are also part of emerging…

N.T Wright and G K Chesterton are huge influences on McLaren… I also recommend reading some of their books also as well as books on Plato so you can understand how his influence has infused into many common Christian teachings and are not biblical.

Now, if you have a question you want to ask a “emergent” go ahead… ask me what I believe… you might be surprised as most are to how I really think as opposed to how John MacArthur slanderously states people like me think.

I am not just a movement, I am a person who Jesus died for and saved… by Grace through faith… hopefully just like you are also.


19   john Frerich    
November 17th, 2007 at 10:47 am

I appreciate your post. I have read the earlier books, McLaren, Bell, McManus, Padgitt, etc. I am thankful at least in his last book Mclaren actually articulates what he believes. Listen to or read the transcript of Doug Padgitt on the Way of the Master Radio when asked “what happens to a good Muslim when he dies,” bearing in mind Jesus said let your yes be your yes and your no, no. It was like listening to presidential candidates rather than a pastor.
I read of McLaren’s “Principle of Uncertainty”, he states over and over again in his books how he despises every hint of certainty or assurance.
But what is most unnerving is the Emergent embrace of “ancient-future” traditions. These traditions are mystical in nature, such as centering prayer and meditation, occult practices and found extensively within the Roman Catholic practices. I spent 38 years in that church, Catholic university, studied in preparation for the priesthood so can speak with some authority on Catholic practices and beliefs and this “new reformation” is treading on very dangerous ground.
I have read how Rob Bell, Tony Compalo, McLaren and McManus all engage in and heartily endorse these practices, as well as Buddhism and its practices, in line with Thomas Merton and the Taize monastic practices. These are not biblical, they are occult in nature, and can only lead to deception. Actually, in many of the books you and I have bantered about there are many references to using meditation and centering prayer to “find god within you.” I use a small “god” for how do we really know if when one finds this “god” it is God or maybe it is Satan masquarading as “an angel of Light?” Dangerous.

I certainly agree that the Emergent Movement has justifiable claims against the mockery that represents the “church” today. As one who has been born again for 10 years I am amazed at the deception, the lack of depth, the lack of changed lives, the perversion of the gospel into “believe and receive” without ever a mention of repentance. I spend my free time in our local college, in my dental practice, and inthe community deliberately seeking out the lost and engaging in conversation and ultimately discussing matters of eternal life. There is a core group in our community but it is a fraction of a percentage the community. As Stephen Curtis Chapman sings, “What about the change, what about the difference, what about forgiveness?” I know what the Emergent movement was in response to. We see Bill Hybels admitting he was wrong in seeking to be seeker sensitive and the “if you build it they will come” mentality. What I take issue with is the solutions proposed, which from the lens of scripture look actually worse than the problems they are trying to correct.
Talk with Jason Carlson sometime. He is a great guy, one of the original men in this movement and ask him why he had to part ways with Doug Padgitt. YOu might also find it interesting reading to see how Peter Drucker, the recently deceased business guru and Bob Buford of “halftime Ministries” were instrumental in this movement, the human potential movement, and “No child left behind.” There is much more behind this movement than you may know. Be a Berean, as will I, and let’s continue to converse.
Love ya,

20   nathan    http://www.mosaic.org
November 17th, 2007 at 10:52 am

John, you wrote:

“I have read how Rob Bell, Tony Compalo, McLaren and McManus all engage in and heartily endorse these practices, as well as Buddhism and its practices, in line with Thomas Merton and the Taize monastic practices.”

I work with McManus on a weekly basis. Can you please tell me what or which mystic practices that are unscriptural that he endorses? I would love to see that. I mean, maybe he is hiding something from all of his friends and community. Or did you read that in a Ken Silva article :)

21   nc    
November 17th, 2007 at 11:12 am

ancient-future stuff comes from bob webber. not emergent, wrong again.

Some people just refuse to get it…

Emergent is a network of relationships, people!
Get it through your heads.

That network exists to encourage reflection on missiology, ecclesiology in whatever context you find yourself in.

Some of those friends have been able to write some books.
It represents “their understanding” of a wide variety of things.

We are not a denomination, “church”, etc. THUS collectively we have no official position.

Why do friends have to have a “position” on things?

We are grateful for the chance that some of us have to share their own views. They challenge us, inspire us to think more deeply about OUR OWN VIEWS, and encourage us to follow their example of searching to be faithful in our own contexts.

That MEANS we are not expected to parrot, ape, or buy wholesale into anything they say or write.

It just means we are driven by hope and a desire to learn, recommit to our own convictions….

NOT BE THREATENED by someone who thinks differently…or even INCORRECTLY…

GOD is the author of our stories…NOT Brian McLaren, et. al.

All this handwringing shows that all the protesters for Absolute Truth and God’s sovereignty don’t reallly believe it.

becuase if they did…the wouldn’t freak out, but be confident in God’s righteous guidance and judgement.

You DO what you really believe.

If you have to make a so called “ministry” from “your master” out of being driven by fear…you might have to take another look at who your “master” really is.

You might find yourself looking in the mirror…

I know this sound uncharitable…

Get it through your heads people.
It’s a NETWORK of FRIENDS whose friendship is not predicated on “being the same”. We’re not codependent like that.

I know that’s a huge difference between us and your average church, but some of you might take a cue from it and get out of everybody’s backyard and needing to control even “how” people say things.

This is what leads to people calling people “heretics” when they have a different theory of knowledge–epistemology.

We as a church have NEVER done that until now.
It’s psychotic crazy.


Got that off my chest.

Love to all…


22   nc    
November 17th, 2007 at 6:06 pm


This post really set some people off, Nathan.

I still think the Hitler comparison was a bit much, but the “Christo-fascism” of certain fringe elements is still made quite plain by virtue of the internet.

23   john Frerich    
November 17th, 2007 at 7:22 pm

McManus, who with his brother Alex, author of “into the Mystic,” teach at Bethel Seminary (my children attend Northwestern, down the road 2 miles), says in “The Barbarian Way,” We have to learn how to see the invisible and hear the inaudible. We are called to join the barbarian tribe and embrace our call as mystical warriors.”

In an interview in “Relevant” magazine, he explained what is the “core” of this book:
“The Barbarian Way was, in some sense, tryng to create a volatile fuel to get people to step out and act. It’s pretty hard to get a whole group of people moving together as individuals who are stepping into a more mystical, faith-oriented, dynamic kind of experience with Christ. So, I think “The Barbarian Way” was my attempt to say, ‘Look, underneath waht looks like invention, innovation adn creativity is really A CORE MYSTICISM that hears from God, and what is fueling this is something really ancient.’ That’s what was reallyt the core of “the Barbarian Way.”

For information, on hte Mosaic Alliance website there is a section called “Awaken Humanity” which “serves the purpose of history by maximizing the divine potential in every human being.”

Please take the time to discover the ties I mentioned with Peter Drucker and Bob Buford. It might make for some interesting reading. For the record I am not threatened by any one of you or these men in this movement. I will contend earnestly for the faith given once unto the saints and I will not resort to “unwholesome words” to do so.

24   nc    
November 17th, 2007 at 7:29 pm

good for you, John.

Thank you for being measured, clear and respectful

25   nc    
November 19th, 2007 at 1:54 pm