When Honest Disagreement Becomes Snarky Self-Righteousness
From Verum Serum (Good Stuff)
Frequent visitors to Verum Serum know that we have had our share of differences with the “Reverend†Ken Silva, pastor-teacher and “president†of Apprising Ministries. While I believe that Ken is sincere in his love for and faith in Christ, I also believe that he is so blinded by his compulsion to judge others by his own subjective standards of what the Christian faith should look like, and by his desire to be a “mover and shaker†in the Church, that he only sees things through the prism of personal preference and the need to be viewed as an authority by those with whom he chooses to interact.
Today’s case in point – “Reverend†Silva has decided to rail against Saddleback Church’s Global Summit on AIDS and the Church.
To be clear, here’s the basic statement from the Summit’s website:
What is faith without action? This summit will provide you with the information and tools you need to discover how your congregation, organization, or agency can start to make a positive change. Every element of the summit is designed to start conversations and build networking that will make the movement to eradicate AIDS stronger.
So, in essence, it appears that the goal of the conference is to equip people to put action to their faith and faith to their action, specifically in relation to HIV/AIDS. Ken seems to have a problem with this.
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To lead a movement to help AIDS sufferers within the community of believers in Christ is one thing, to include unbelievers confuses the gospel message even if some believers realize the motivation. When asked about his questionable alliances Warren quotes the Scripture where Jesus sent out the seventy and told themthat if the man of peace received them stay in that town. Warren’s reasoning is that if an unbeliever wants to join then let him.
Warren does a lot for the AIDS cause but his unscriptural alliances have removed the gospel essence from the movement. Pragmatism is a double edged sword. It isn’t just this conference, Warren cooperates publicly with the head of ACT UP ( a pro-gay org) and other people who exhibit earthly compassion while rejecting the Lord Jesus. He would be much better served by going around the land to wake up the church not lend credibility to those who reject Christ.
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BTW – Warren accepts invitations to go to Jewish synagogues, Mormon tabernacles, and Roman Catholic churches to help them grow. If I am not mistaken, Paul called the unbelieving Jew the “enemies of the cross of Christ”, he called works based salvation “fallen from grace”, and he called Mormonism the “spirit of anti-christ” since they deny Christ’s deity.
Rick,
I guess my question would be this. Are we treating Warren and other Christian men involved in this project different just because they are pastors? Do we think that because these men are pastors that they should only work with Christians?
It seems to me that if we answers those questions ‘yes’, then we are just reinforcing the whole sacred/secular dualism that has in my mind hindered the Church for a long time. Look at this way. What if a Christian doctor feels a calling by God to really work to prevent and treat AIDS? If that doctor develops a treatment or possibly a cure, is it worthless to God because it is not “sharing the Gospel”? To do this, this doctor would probably work with some other researchers that weren’t Christians, and some that were possibly atheists. Does that make his work worthless or somehow unacceptable to God?
The read over at Verum Serum is indeed interesting. Scott dismantles Ken, and Ken shows up to make utterly pointless comments.
It used to really *bother* me that Ken’s research is infantile and unprofessional. Now it’s just kind of sad.
Phil – of course there are exceptions, but Warren seems to be headed into a conglomerate humanitarian effort that blurs the gospel. We should be very careful how we link up with unbelievers, and you can always present scenarios that are appropiate butthat doesn’t answer the question “Is there any circumstance where joining with unbelievers is detrimental to the message?”.
You did not address the examples I gave about Warren helping false churches to grow. How can that be justified?
Can I buy a butthat from a haberdasher? Or is it special order?
Rick,
Well, I guess I’d have to hear what he’s saying at those places to really make a call on it. Are these places inviting him on their own, or is he actively pursuing trying to get into these places? I think these sorts of things are always tricky. I think Christians can have good relationships with people who are members of other religions, but it seems there is a fine line to walk between being friendly and endorsing and promoting. Warren seems to be upfront about where he stands.
He is invited to come and help them ith church growth principles. There is no gray area here, to help Mormons grow is sinfull and should be condemned.
huh???
chris – How can a saved pastor show a cult how to grow their cult?
Did you ever think about the HUGE relational capitol that Warren now has with these people? He probably has the most credible voice in the evangelical world to speak into their organizations. As long as he isn’t preaching heresy or compromising his faith with theirs, I don’t see the issue. And as far as I can see, he has not made a PDL kit for Mormons or a PDL kit for Catholics, changing the material to suit their theology. it’s the same message everywhere.
My pastor speaks to the entire NFL once a year. Is that wrong, because they have dramatically different beliefs? I am not too sure where we should draw the line when it comes to where we should and should not preach.
What exactly are you quoting here, Rick?
A number of the Christian churches Paul mentored still worshipped with their Jewish bretheren in synagogue well into the third and fourth centuries (until the time of Constantine)…
Nathan, he isn’t preaching he is teaching them how to get more people. Why can’t you bring yourself to ever say something is wrong except with the ODMs? It is unbiblical and wrong to help Mormons evangelize. Period.
How can a saved pastor gain an audience with a cult and be given an opportunity to talk about the truth, with the possibility that some might see it and escape the cult?
Is Warren actually teaching Mormons how to evangelize? It seems Mormons do a pretty good job at that themselves already from what I’ve seen.
I guess it’s hard for to separate fact from fiction with the site that deal with Warren because so many people have such a hatred for him that they criticize everything he does, no matter what. So it’s like the boy who cried wolf syndrome. It’s hard to separate truth from crap.
A lot of it comes to what the motives for such a conference happen to be. If it is to inform Christians and push them to do something about it, then I would have not qualms about having non-believers speak if they have information about the problem.
If it is to make the problem more important then the faith, I would have a problem. If the message becomes that those who are involved are more righteous then those who don’t, no matter what they believe, it’s seems to start becoming an ego thing.
At the least, some kind of scriptural perspective should be given when working with non-christian organizations. God several times warned Israel against looking to pagan nations for help and deliverance when they should have looked to Him.
The cause may be good, but the threat of compromise shouldn’t be underestimated.
Rick,
I’m inclined to go with Chris. If Mormons sign up and show up and there’s no change in the conference itself, then so be it. Are you really suggesting that in order to pay and show up at a conference run by Christians all attendees have to sign a statement of faith?
Rick,
you are sure that Warren is partnering with Mormons to help them grow the Mormon church? I have seen him encouraging the Mormon church to use the 40 Days of Purpose as a means to attract people, but that’s great! Imagine Mormons bringing friends to their homes to hear a christian message.
BTW – I have written several articles here commending even Ken Silva for good points and articles. I have no problem even agreeing with him. I just think you are a bit off here.
So, if I have a “Pro-Life” rally next spring. Can I invite non-Christians who are against abortion? I know a quite a few. Would that be compromise?
Rick I don’t want to sound overly harsh but I find some of what you say to be non-sequiter (recognizing that most of what I say is often that. LOL)
The same claim your making about Warren and Mormons was the same claim that was made against Ravi Zacharias. Unfortunately most of the people who attacked Ravi never even listened to the sermon or read the transcript.
All that to say I would need proof that Warren is actually teaching Mormons how to evangelize.
On a very different note…
Rick when Driscoll spoke at SEBS you made the statement that you were working on proof that Brian McClaren was a heretic and would provided that proof. How’s that coming?
I’ve heard Rob Bell speak out against witchcraft and abortion. Is he back in the ODM’s good graces now?
I think we have to deal with the world as it is, not as we would have it be.
The reality is that most people who struggle with AIDs, right or wrong, are faced with such a sense of urgency that theological discussions appear a luxury for the educated, privileged denizens of the global North and West.
I think, given the magnitude of the African AIDS crisis we need to see these activities as “parallel” endeavors that can work in a complementary fashion with the abundance of mission organizations that exist.
does that make sense?
Perfectly.
nc said: “The reality is that most people who struggle with AIDs, right or wrong, are faced with such a sense of urgency that theological discussions appear a luxury for the educated, privileged denizens of the global North and West.”
Just a question: does anyone on this blog actually have a job?
This would be a good topic for your next post: “How much time is wasted lounging without any benefit in the blogosphere and on this site in particular?”
You could even have a meter that tracks the hours:)
Hmmmm….Paul C.
Ironic, don’t you think?
Most of the people have jobs, I believe.
But some level criticism at people concerned for justice and people who lie in the name of God…
by people whose actual “jobs” are making a living out of tantrums over the radio and God knows what Ken actually does with his days? He’s constantly asking for money…what does he do?
but that’s ok.
They’re right about everything.
So even their lies and sin are for the glory of God.
Crazy.
Don’t be so defensive nc – just something to think about. I wonder at the end benefits of these “mock battles” and debates, especially when the commenters/posters on this site have basically been reduced to the same level of those they attack. Interesting, no?
Actually I believe Ken Silva is jobless, judging by his last support letter in which he asked for money to pay for a car since his domicile is out on the edge of town making it difficult for him to go anywhere while his wife works.
Whatever, Paul.
There are vast differences, and yes, if you wrestle with a pig, you’re bound to get muddy, but in the end you’re still not a pig…
Still, I have yet to see the outright falsehood, nastiness and outright slander that the ODM’s radiate toward anyone they hate exhibited here. I also have yet to see here the unaccountability continuously demonstrated in the criticism of any and all who dare to search for Christ in ways that don’t match the watchdoggies’ man-made traditions.
Why don’t you ask them the exact same question you’ve asked us?
Not defensive, Paul.
I said it’s ironic that some do raise that concern in defense of people whose actual jobs consist of fear mongering and sin in the name of God.
It just seems crazy to me…
Just observing…
However…
What would you suggest people do, Paul C, in the face of lying in the name of God?
I just don’t get how people like Ken can revel in “war” and when he’s criticized for that then “we” have the problem?
Why the need to defend or even soften criticism of that behavior and mindset?
Should people just let stuff happen?
Why can’t people see that Ken is an extreme example of alienating and abusive behavior that does reside in and regularly surfaces in enough American churches that people automatically reject us out of hand?
Why is it wrong to be frustrated by that abuse?
Why can’t people express dismay, frustration, and, yes, justified anger at our ministries and mission being made unnecessarily more difficult then it already is?
Why does that translate into “us” having the problem?
I’m asking these questions because I point this out again and again here and people don’t ever really grapple with it?
So…since you opened the door…what are your thoughts to my actual questions…
The “enemies of the cross” reference is in Phil. 3 and I believe refers back to those of the circucism as Paul said earlier.
I have plenty on MacLaren but since I have been in the hospital many weeks I have yet to consolidate all of it. I do feel that what I present will be met with joy from those who already consider him a heretic and with skepticism from those who do not. There is very little objectivity in the blogasphere.
Eeveryone seems to approach issues with personal perspectives that immediately tip the balance and render serious and unbiased assessment difficult.
From what I see, everyone on this site seems to have a SINGLE enemy (yes, I know there are a few others you also target from time to time, but for all intensive purposes, it’s narrowed down to one).
So… 20 guys pile onto one guy – grappling, wrestling, throwing mud, debating, going down rabbit holes (I think some of you are still trying to find your way out of a few)… But the saddest part is that you have largely become guilty of the thing you set out to rectify in the first place – just an observation.
I am not an ODM, nor do I know any ODM people personally, but I do find that many of the observations brought out are correct (many, not all)…
Ken, and the many people like him in churches are the reason why I stopped telling people I work for a church on airplanes and out in the business world.
Now Paul, I know you honestly believe that but you were specifically challenged on it by Chris L. Perhaps you could answer him instead of just repeating.
Paul C,
Still…
What would you suggest people do in the face of lying in the name of God?
I just don’t get how people like Ken can revel in “war†and when he’s criticized for that then “we†have the problem?
Why the need to defend or even soften criticism of that behavior and mindset?
Should people just let stuff happen?
Why can’t people see that Ken is an extreme example of alienating and abusive behavior that does reside in and regularly surfaces in enough American churches that people automatically reject us out of hand?
Why is it wrong to be frustrated by that abuse?
Why can’t people express dismay, frustration, and, yes, justified anger at our ministries and mission being made unnecessarily more difficult then it already is?
Why does that translate into “us†having the problem?
I’m going on the record:
I don’t care if you disagree with PD or EC or whatever.
I just care that you actually know what you’re talking about, are fair and fully informed, and don’t play the gotcha game.
That’s why I think this site is important.
I found the following comment over at Mark Oestricher (sp) blog. It seems to fit the title of this post. Which ironically is where (ysmarko) I first encountered the pastor/teacher/reverend/heresy hunter himself.
I’m not going to go around the blog hunting for examples of where you were just as bad as your opponents (don’t have the time)…
Being as friendly and honest as I can here, what I see are politically correct attacks, veiled anger and carefully crafted/worded knock-downs. But they are quite transparent.
nc: I can see that you’re sincere and utterly dislike what’s going on on certain sites, but I think you are blowing things out of proportion.
Some of the ODM sites do a very, very fine job of presenting biblical truths and bringing to light the folly what goes on in today’s church world.
Undoubtedly, we are living in a day of deception. I prefer to take the route of observation (rather than outright condemnation – though I sometimes slip).
How typically watchdoggie. You are guilty because you’re guilty. An amazing argument that has no defense.
As has been pointed out repeatedly the differences are marked. First there’s not a lack of accountablity, there’s not an insulation here from any sort of criticism or feedback, there’s not out and out lying going on, the incessant link whoring, anonymous posting of smears, and on and on.
No, they don’t. What they present is why their church culture hates other Christians and their church culture. Its the equivalent of a kicker on an NFL deciding to kick the holder in the face. The only winner is the other team.
I have no doubt about that. The idea that watchdoggies are accurately representing Christ is a perfect example of deception.
Tim said: “The idea that watchdoggies are accurately representing Christ is a perfect example of deception.”
Well, thank goodness we have you and the CRN.info team to set the records straight, demonstrate the fruit of the spirit and be a beacon for those of thus languishing in despair.
C’mon guys…
Nice to see we agree on something.
Did you know that part of the reason this site exists at all is because Chris L. had one of his co-workers print out some of the watchdoggie stuff and ask him if it was kosher? So, that’s at least part of the reason we exist at all.
BTW, I noticed you didn’t actually add to the conversation at all. There’s nothing of actual content in your response, simply an implication that we have huge egos. WHich may or may not be true, but doesn’t change the nature of the watchdoggies.
To be quite honest, I think all of you are sounding a little self-righteous.
You disagree and then make absolutely no effort to see it from the other person’s perspective. Don’t you want to try to grow and learn from each other instead of trying to make other people see it your way? Because everyone here seems to be implying that they know everything and the person they disagree with is ALWAYS wrong. I see this on every single thread. Just an observation.
Wow.
I just read that comment from Marko’s blog.
Wow.
Just.
Wow.
Merry,
Consider this line out of the comment left by on Marko’s blog:
And ask yourself if you find that attitude here.
“Don’t you want to try to grow and learn from each other instead of trying to make other people see it your way? ”
The only way people can grow is to see it my way!