Almost twenty years ago as a young newlywed, when I was young and stupid, I accepted a “free” vacation to a Florida resort with a 2-night cruise to the Bahamas. In exchange, all I had to do was listen to a condominium sales-pitch. Thankfully, I had my wife with me, who was more than willing to put the hammer down on the salesperson, who tried every guilt-wringing trick in the book. I wondered, “if this place is such a great, indispensable thing that I don’t have, then why do they have to try to trick me and pressure me to get me to buy it?”
While time has gone by, and I have hopefully become wiser, this particular event has probably colored my thinking whenever someone offers something “free” to me.
I had a discussion earlier this week about how one of the challenges for the church is how to become externally-focused in its local community. The world is suspicious that the church is only willing to help out in exchange for an advertising platform. In a way, it seems that communities are gunshy about involving the church in their needs because their fear is that the only reason the church serves is so that it can get the proverbial high-pressure sales pitch in exchange for its service. It is as if they’re asking, “if this is such a great, indispensable thing that I don’t have, then why do they have to try to trick me and pressure me to get me to buy it?”
One example I had of a church being effective in their community was in Longmont, Colorado, where one church went to the local community leaders and said “what needs to you have that we can meet?” While the community was initially skeptical, over time, this church has become much more integral to the world around it in a way that people can look at it and see that what Jesus is offering through it is not a sales pitch.
One example of “being salt and light” to its community occurred a few years ago when, due to a budget shortfall, the local school district had problems funding basic custodial services. When it heard of this need, the church volunteered to clean the schools at night. They saw a need and met it, without asking for something in return. People knew where the church was – and the school board and many educators were verbally grateful for their service. There was no need for a ‘tract throw-down’, their service spoke of who they were working for and gained credibility for Him in that community. (For more examples of this, check out The Externally Focused Church
Today, I saw another example of this in the morning paper:
Police recruit pastors
Ministers will try to reduce tensions at the scenes of crimes, and maybe help solve someIndianapolis police want local pastors to help calm volatile crime scenes.
So they have formed a group that enlists ministers to aid in keeping the peace and ultimately reducing crime in their neighborhoods.
More than a dozen ministers have joined the Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department’s Community Clergy program, an effort police hope also will improve relations between police and the public.
Police hope to eventually have a minister on call in every district. All participants must clear a background check and complete a training class to be officially accepted into the program, which will be formally launched this month.
“It allows both the faith community and law enforcement to work together,” said the Rev. Charles Harrison, pastor of Barnes United Methodist Church on the Near Northside and a program participant. “I think it is going to help in solving these homicides and to help build a good relationship between the Police Department and the community.”
Deputy Chief Patricia Holman said the ministers will serve as liaisons between police and the community at the scenes of homicides, police-action shootings or any other potential crisis situation.
“They have a connection to the neighborhood,” said Holman, who also serves as an assistant pastor at Mount Carmel Baptist Church in Indianapolis. “They are the very people that people are looking to for answers.”
The department has not identified all participants because they had not yet been notified that they had cleared background checks and were officially accepted, said IMPD Lt. Jeff Duhamell.
Olgen Williams, executive director of the Christamore House Family and Community Center on the Westside and a program participant, said the initiative will work because the clergy will bring relief to situations through spirituality as a complement to law enforcement.
“It’s a good idea. It’s a collaboration trying to make the community safe, and I think we need it more than ever,” Williams said.
The response by local ministers to defuse a heated confrontation between officers and citizens after the shooting of a popular Near-Northside barber in October sealed the deal for IMPD to create the program.
While the idea for Community Clergy was still in its infancy, Harrison and other ministers stepped in to help calm tensions after the Oct. 14 shooting of Otis Brown Sr., police said.
More than 100 people — including Harrison — gathered outside The New Doo Barber Shop, 3100 block of North Clifton Street, in the hours after Brown was gunned down in the basement of his business.
Their help provided a clear example that ministers can offer police valuable assistance, Holman said.
“The (Community Clergy) program was already in motion, but I think it did certainly confirm the thought that this would be a fantastic idea,” said Holman. “It’s good to have people in key positions in your neighborhoods that you can trust and get advice from.”
Brown, 46, was a beloved businessman in his neighborhood. Many citizens who came to the homicide scene were angry that he had been killed during an apparent robbery, Harrison said. Officers tried to move people away from the crime scene, and some in the crowd protested, Harrison said.
“There was so much distrust and anger out there,” Harrison said. “Some in the community were taking it out on police.”
The officers needed to clear the area so detectives could search for clues and find Brown’s killers, Harrison said, but the crowd didn’t see it that way.
“When the police tried to move the crowd back, they felt the police were trying to hide something,” Harrison said. “They resisted.”
Harrison said he and other neighborhood ministers intervened and helped calm the tensions. While police worked on the scene, the ministers helped bring Brown’s family members to a separate area and counseled them.
“We helped calm them down and created an atmosphere of peace,” Harrison said.
Police said the ministers would have come in handy at a separate, unrelated crime scene to which officers responded June 7.
IMPD Maj. Bryan Roach said police felt tensions rising after a car chase and what was initially thought to be a police-action shooting that killed Lawrence Primus, 24, on the Near Northside.
Detectives later determined Primus died from a self-inflicted gunshot, but during the investigation, Primus’ family arrived at the scene and angrily blamed officers for the death, Roach said.
Having a pastor there would have helped police defuse the chaotic situation, he said.
And that is not the only benefit IMPD is hoping to achieve. Holman said the ministers might actually help police solve crimes, because people are often afraid to tell police who committed a crime for fear of retribution. Those citizens might be more willing to ask their pastor to pass the information to police, Holman said.
“Citizens want crimes solved but do not often feel comfortable that they can remain anonymous,” Holman said. “It may be that people want me to have that information but are not comfortable coming to me.”
She said police will also seek guidance from pastors on improving their response to crisis situations and how to interact with citizens in ways that avoid unnecessary conflict.
“It has to be a two-way street if it’s going to be successful,” Holman said. “If we’re asking them to step out there, then we have to be willing to step out there with them.”
I realize that some will be critical of programs like this, but I see it as ways in which churches are finally – creatively – looking for ways to engage their culture without selling out. Being relevant without altering the message. Taking the talents given to them and multiplying them for the kingdom, so that the world will know that Our God is God of the Universe…
![Image of The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith](http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31Jl6fhDLxL._SL75_.jpg "The Prodigal God (An Unabridged Production)[2-CD Set]; Recovering the Heart of the Christian Faith")
65 Comments(+Add)
I have no problem with that as long as they were all Christian pastors. If they included Muslims, Rabbis, Buddhists, etc. then I would not be a part of the group but still offer my services. My problem is not with humanitarian efforts, if fact I like the “random acts of kindness” ministry. I just believe unequal associations especially on a public scale obscures the message.
Rick. I think you are quite wrong here. The message your approach gives out is that helping people is conditional on selling them the ‘message’ – this just creates cynicism and confirms exactly what this post is about. It doesn’t obscure the massage (that God loves them enough to die for them and wants them to give up on their own reliance, repent of their sins and to follow Him) to work with people of any and no faith to stop poverty and injustice int his world.
It obscures it more to appear too ‘holy’ to work with other people.
Ian – You missed the point entirely. I do not desire to do good works that can be attributed to Allah or Mohammed or any other false god. We all do good works for people to whom we never get to share the message with, but in the end the gospel of Jesus Christ is paramount and is our calling and commission.
Ian,
“obscure the massage” – you must be talking about Joel Osteen’s church…
Phil – Ha ha – oops!
Rick – our comission is making disciples of Jesus. I am not just being pedantic here – ’sharing the gospel’ is a strange term. When we help the poor we do it because a) that is what pure religion is; b) that is how we are judged in one of Jesus parables; and c) most importantly – because every human is made in God’s image and is loved by God.
We ’share the gospel’ in everything we do. By serving the poor, even with muslims etc, means we are doing it on behalf of Jesus, and may even show Christ to those we are working with.
We do not share the gospel by feeding the poor. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. What you aresaying is an emergent view that minimizes the preaching of the gospel and meshes works with the gospel.
The gospel is good news not good works. If you feed the poor without sharing Chrsit you have given a bag lunch to those headed for hell. The world can do that.
You share the reality of the gospel by being the gospel. If your only motivation for service is a sales pitch, then you’ve completely missed the point.
“You share the reality of the gospel by being the gospel.”
Paul explains the gospel and I don’t seem to be in it.
You do damage to the gospel by labeling it a “sales pitch”. I got saved believing that “sales pitch” watching television with no one “being” the gospel to me. I did not know one single Christian so I was relegated to the “sales pitch” I find that characterization of sharing the gospel offensive.
I will wholeheartedly agree with Rick here,(though he may not appreciate my support?)
Eph 2:8-10 is clear. There are works that are pre-ordained by God that only the redeemed can perform.These are the works that demonstrate real faith spoken of in James 2. Any and all “good works” do not glorify God or establish His Kingdom.
e.g. Bono, Mandela, Ghandi etc.
You can bet that the ACLU will make sure that any and all religions are equally represented in these types of programs. That alone will water down the Gospel, and once again show the world that all religions worship the same “god”. The church should be doing the work outside of governmental co-operation. We will rue the day that the ekklesia became 5013C and/or “faithbased” funded entities.
No one comes to Christ based on our apparent goodness.
God draws.God saves. Making disciples occurs after that.
You cannot disciple anyone who is not born again.
Matthew 5:
14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.
Jesus is speaking to the chosen. Back to the sovreignty/glory issue. It is all about Yahweh, period!
Rick said:
I know what you are saying, but I don’t think we can separate out the proclamation and demonstration like that. Perhaps in present-day America we can do it because there are organizations that have taken over the church’s responsibility to the poor for it. In areas where there is much poverty and oppression though, it seems that to just share a message without including people physical needs is just short-sighted.
When Jesus started His ministry in Luke, He quotes from Isaiah 61:
I think the that there are aspects of that which are spiritual, but there is also a physical aspect too. I think Jesus is talking about holistic salvation.
As far as joining non-Christians in doing “good works”, I think in one respect, it’s kind of a red herring that Christians use. I know there are some organizations that try to tackle poverty from a purely secular point-of-view, and they often get sidetracked by politics and such. Whether or not it is right for Christians to be involved with these groupd seems to me like something that needs to be handled on a case-by-case basis. I guess the question I would ask is whether or not God is glorified in the partnership or not.
If a mother down the street has lost her 4 year old and she calls for help then everyone in the neighborhood runs to help. But if they come to my house saying the Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, Mormons, and athiests are joining together to give food to the needy will you join?
The answer is no, I will (and do) give food to the needy in Jesus’ name. I will not misrepresent my humanitarian works as anything but extensions of Christ’s love.
Rick,
I don’t know. In the situation you describe, I probably wouldn’t have an issue helping out. There’s also this passage in Matthew:
Sometimes I think “random acts of kindness” are OK, and even mandated. We can’t underestimate the Holy Spirit’s ability to reveal truth to the one who is being blessed.
“We can’t underestimate the Holy Spirit’s ability to reveal truth to the one who is being blessed. ”
That is Calvinism and relieves our responsibility to “sound a certain sound”. Everything we do must be with a redemptive motive, not a sales pitch, but an opportunity to share the life giving message of Jesus Christ to a desperate sinner.
Faith comes by hearing. The Mormons do great humanitarian works around the world and guess wha happens? People become Mormons! Why? Because they teach them. The Holy Spirit doesn’t teach a person about Christ when Mormons give them food. That is a lazy argument that relieves us from our great responsibility.
We need more preaching not less, and yes, we need to meet people’s physical needs IN JESUS NAME so God can use that to open their ears to the gospel. The gospel is not canned goods, the gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.
If sharing the gospel is your only motivation for service, then many people will (and do) see it as such, and that is how it is being treated.
And Rick, if I understand your story correctly, what you received was not a “sales pitch”. You knew full well that you were listening to Billy Graham preach. He did not show up on your doorstep to do something for you for the purpose of sharing the gospel.
Chris P wrote:
I agree. “Good works” only glorify God if their credit is given to Him.
Caring for the sick, the poor, the widow and the orphan in God’s name does not always require an explicit sharing of the gospel, nor does it require that you cannot be working alongside an unbeliever. Whereas your ‘act of righteousness’ glorifies God, the unbeliever receives his reward in full in any recognition received.
Doing good should not be conditional on whether or not you get an opportunity to lay out the Roman Road. Doing good should not be conditional on whether or not everyone else is a Christian. Doing good should be what we do because we are saved, and any glory received should be given to God. I think we could have just an ounce of faith in the Holy Spirit that the recipients of those good works might be shown the True Source of them…
Exactly.
Just to note: Bono claims to be a Christian, and – if you’ve actually listened to the video – does a decent job (though I have a few quibbling points) laying out the basis for a Christian response to the AIDS crisis. Like Esther, he has asked himself the question – I am where God has brought me, with fame and notariety, and if I don’t use that for God in such a time as this, then I haven’t I squandered His gift?
Rick,
Well, I’m a pretty vocal critic against Calvinism. I do think there is pretty strong evidence in Scripture that we can leave results of evangelistics efforts up to God. In the example you cited, if the woman was my neighbor, I would be ashamed not to help out. Especially if the atheists, Muslims, etc. were already doing it. What message does that send? Christians will only help if they get credit for it?
It would be on thing to be talking about this if the church in America were doing too much in the area of helping the poor. That, however, is not the case. We have thousands of fat and happy Christians willing to let the world go to hell (in the present and in the future) and not do anything about it. It’s a shame that we even have to worry this issue from the perspective of Christians joining non-Christians in doing good works. The Church should be taking the lead, not bringing up the rear.
If there’s one thing we have an abundance of in the Church, it’s preaching. It’s about time that some of the preachers shut up and get moving.
Rick, not everything you disagree with is Calvinism…
I would look at Paul:
When looking at the third world, in particular, the only consistent local ‘infrastructure’ that exists for providing aid tends to be missionaries and small churches. Aid workers will come and go, but the church remains in the community and retains the credibility often required to effectively share the gospel with the other people in that community.
Am I suggesting that we do not share the gospel while serving? By no means. Am I calling for a “cop out”? No. It seems to be a much bigger cop-out to deny service – or do be redundant and wasteful in serving – because your opportunity to share the gospel is not a pre-condition.
This brings to mind:
Perhaps in so many of these cases where the church is needed to BE the hands and feet of Jesus – not just his mouth, God has finally heard their cries brought deliverance from the rocks (or, in the case of the AIDS crisis, rock stars)…
Amen, and amen.
Rick,
Can you explain to me how everything you disagree with ends up coming back to Calvinism? I don’t understand this thread at all, but I can live with that because the truth is I don’t care. If Fred Phelps showed up at my door collecting Christmas gifts for the little boy down the street who’s dad is dieing from cancer. I’d give.
Your statement though “that’s Calvinism” baffled me.
OK – here you go – a real example:
In the city our church is in, there is a community food bank which collects food from multiple sources to distribute to poor families (who are identified by churches, social services, and other reputable sources). This food bank also vets the families at a minimal level to make sure that its resources are being used wisely. Our church collects massive amounts of food that donates it to that “secular” agency to distribute to the poor.
Could we set up our own separate food bank? With the amount collected, we certainly could.
Would it be inefficient? Most certainly! Staffing issues aside, wise distribution, avoiding both deficiencies and redundancies, and logistics would all be terribly wasteful, and the community would be less served than by working through the single collection/distribution point.
However, people who receive the food are told where it came from (primarily 3 big churches in the area), and when the churches meet. Do we lack so much faith in the Holy Spirit that we have to make sure that those people specifically hear the gospel message in exchange for the food, or do we trust that our compassion will speak to who God is and that they will hear Him?
“If there’s one thing we have an abundance of in the Church, it’s preaching. It’s about time that some of the preachers shut up and get moving.”
And I also say amen. But nothing can substitute the preaching/sharing of the gospel. Our entire lives should be a light which points to Christ and supports our verbal witness. My mother-in-law was saved by a converted Jew in Brooklyn going door to door with the Roamns road, and because of her salvation her children and their children were saved.
What I find most distasteful is not the suggestion that we should do more good works, or that we talk too much and do too little, it is when you say things like the Holy Spirit can speak through canned goods, or that we are the gospel, or just what I consider a general over reaction to the stagnation apparent in some methods by seemingly rejecting everything.
My reference to Calvinism would be better explained by saying “fatalism”.
Every body talks. MacLaren talks, Bell talks, MacArthur talks, and even sell their talks, so everyone continues to talk and talk and talk. What we need is people who are willing to leave America and go into the world for the rest of their lives and love sinners while sharing Christ. We all are far too comfortable and with much talk sometimes brings confusion.
But no one can be saved except by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and no one can believe on Him without hearing the gosepl. We are not bringing in God’s kingdom, it’s alreadt here inside every believer. This world will never be what God originally desired and in fact it will grow worse. I do consider material as worthless and only souls are worth anything eternal. Christ died for souls and a silent soup line along the route to hell is worthless.
We must share the gospel while living lives that exhibit our Lord and Master.
Rick,
You said:
There’s a bit of irony in this discussion. You think I’m fatalistic in my previous comment, and I see your comment here as being very fatalistic.
I guess it depends on how we view the earth. Is it a burning building that is beyond hope so we should get as many people out with us before it burns to the ground? Or is it a building with an arsonist setting a bunch of small and large fires that continually flare up, and we try to minimize damage to people and creation? I tend to see the latter. We might not be able to put out all the fires until Jesus returns, but that doesn’t mean we should ignore the ones we see.
“Is it a burning building that is beyond hope so we should get as many people out with us before it burns to the ground? ”
Yes.
And Jesus will return with flaming fire taking vengeance on all those who know not God and obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. That doesn’t sound very pleasant does it? We are attempting to create a much more palatable end time scenario when in fact many Scriptures teach otherwise.
Rick,
Actually, you have identified a sticking-point between pre-millenial and amillenial eschatology. Pre-mil interprets Thessalonians & such as all tribulation in relation to the “end of days” (i.e. getting worse and worse), whereas amil interprets this as being a consistent state of ‘tribulation’, with a specific period that ACTUALLY DID OCCUR in the decades after Paul’s writing.
I think characterizing “the material” as worthless is the very thing the early church theologians were fighting.
It’s a bit gnostic…
The affirmation of the physical realm is what distinguished the Christian witness and their cosmology from the Stoics, the gnostics, etc.
The INCARNATION is not some necessary but ‘mere’ vehicle to get us the free pass escape ticket out of the body, the material world, etc.
I just don’t know how we can say that the soul is something more valuable then the body when what we are as humans IS bodies. I don’t think we can rightly say that there is that strict a demarcation between soul and body.
Even the kill the body, not the soul language still doesn’t negate the eternal resurrected life of the people of God is IN BODIES…the ultimate value is a renewed, redeemed materiality.
We will receive new bodies. These, as Paul noted, contain no good thing. It has not even entered into the heart of man what the Lord has prepared, so it surely doesn’t resemble what we have now.
Rick
Whatever happens in the future, you cannot get away from the fact that we are to pray for and work towards God’s Kingdom on earth now. I like NT Wrights phrase that the kingdom is “now and to come”. The evacuation theology you suggest is not something I see in the New Testament, or in the whole meta narrative of the Bible.
IN the end it is the difference between doing something out of love for Christ and in God’s name (which can be done in many settings – Christian ministry, secular organisation etc) and something done with a Gospel message. The latter is not something I thin is either mandated in scripture or helpful in 2007.
I look for a city whose builder and maker is God. Jesus said His kingdom was not of this world and often refered to the life to come. Paul tells us we should not look upon the temporal but upon the eternal. Call it gnostic if you want but the final and eternal kingdom of God will not resemble anything we can imagine.
Our new bodies will be celestial and made after the Risen Christ. The material universe will one day roll up as a scroll and God will make all things new. The prophecies in the New Testament are yet to come otherwise they are useless as Scripture. Judgment will come to this world in an unimaginable way and the wrath of God will be poured out upon its inhabitants.
Many do not desire to hear or believe that and many will be unprepared.
Actually, Rick, this is incorrect. Prophecies in the NT are only useless as prophecy, not as scripture, if they have already come to pass (and even then, God has been known to double-fulfill certain prophecies).
Example 1: Is the book of Jeremiah useless, since Israel was already taken into the Babylonian captivity? Or is it only “useless” as predictive prophecy?
Example 2: Revelation is written in a style of literature common to the first century, the “apocalyptic” form. Apocalyptic literature informs the reader in symbology, but its primary purpose is informing and teaching, not predictive prophecy. However, primarily since Darby’s treatment a couple hundred years ago, many American Christians have treated it as the latter, not the former. Why? Primarily because the conditions in America and the European world were consistently improving, adding a burden of guilt for not being persecuted enough. Why has this view not caught on in the third world or in historical Christianity? Because there was consistent persecution going on.
The usefulness of this scripture is not as prophecy, but in how to live in times of persecution (or impending persecution).
Unless this is what happened to Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and we’re arrogant enough to assume that we, today, hold greater importance as an audience of scripture than those it was originally written to, and that they might as well have just ignored the real warnings they had received…
I believe the verbiage was “all the inhabitants of the earth”. Please don’t say all doesn’t mean all!
Rick,
Note that “inhabitants of the earth” only appears in Isaiah 24 and in Revelation. In Isaiah, the “earth” is only encompassed by his audience, that being Israel and the nations around it – as he was prophesying the destruction of the Northern Kingdom, which shortly came to pass.
In Revelation, there are all sorts of symbols related to things that actually happened between 55 and 70 A.D. (which is why secular scholars place Revelation post-70 A.D. – otherwise John’s writing would have been predictive…) The descriptions in Revelation match the downfall of Jerusalem and the ensuing persecution of Christians in Asia Minor in the decades to follow. “All of the earth” known to the writers and readers at that time was affected. If you’re trying to project to the entire globe, this definition of “earth” was still centuries from even being “discovered”…
Also, I would note that “creation” is used in NT literature to encompass all of the earth and everything in it, whereas ‘earth’ has multiple uses.
I am not suggesting that all prophecies have been fulfilled, as the final judgment has not yet occurred (obviously). However, much of the ‘tribulation’ language specifically describes the events of the first century which (surprise) actually happened to the people these letters were written to…
Rick does all also mean all in Colossians where we are told that all things have been reconciled to God?
This discussion is a bit weird to me…
We should have no motive to do good works which God has prepared for us to do… other than the expression of love and worship back to God as we do His works.
I see even doing it to “get the gospel” out misses the point that those that “gave me drink” as Jesus stated, did not even know that they did it unto Him…
So, I see that as we go in our lives, be it organized or just haphazardly, if it is a work God prepared for you to do, do it… I think it a better witness to show a Muslim I care and will help in anyway i can, or to give witness to a Hindi of the love of Christ by doing what is good and right for even if i am working shoulder to shoulder with them, my works unlike theirs is unto God and prepared for me to do unlike theirs.
All I can say I see it a great witness… for I am not “joining with them” but have joined with God and I pray the join with God also and will then offer their works back to the God that prepared those same works for them to do.
It seems pretty simple to me…
iggy
Ann Louise,
While I’m also interested in Rick’s answer, I would say that, taken in context, ‘all things’ is defined beyond the earth in Colossians in such a way that is pretty obviously all things:
It certainly seems like Paul went out of his way to make sure it was understood to be all things…
19For it was (AV)the Father’s good pleasure for all (AW)the fullness to dwell in Him,
20and through Him to (AX)reconcile all things to Himself, having made (AY)peace through (AZ)the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, (BA)whether things on earth or things in heaven.
21And although you were (BB)formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds,
22yet He has now (BC)reconciled you in His fleshly (BD)body through death, in order to (BE)present you before Him (BF)holy and blameless and beyond reproach–
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly (BG)established and steadfast, and not moved away from the (BH)hope of the gospel that you have heard,
As you can see the Father’s good pleasure is the same as God’s will which is actualized through faith as in verse 23. The verses say that it was God’s will that the fulness of God dwell in Christ and that through Jesus everything can be reconciled to Himself. Now God has reconciled us to Himself if we continue grounded in the faith.
So it is God’s will that reconciliation happen through Christ but that can only happen through faith.
So, Rick, then “all” things are only people and not “all” things?
BTW – all things will not be reconciled to Him but we have been given the ministry of reconciliation. God is not willing that any should perish and that all should be reconciled to Him through Christ.
Chris – as it refers to rocks and water etc. I am not sure how that will turn out unless God will create a new creation that isreconciled to Him. I do know that the passage in Colossians refers to this recociliation being God’s will not an accomplished deed.
I’m sorry, but I’m not following you here. Paul goes out of his way to define “all things” as everything in existence, and that Jesus’ blood has reconciled “all things” to Him (recognizing that individuals must accept Jesus’ blood-payment).
I fail to see what you mean by “I do know that the passage in Colossians refers to this recociliation being God’s will not an accomplished deed.”
Paul himself says that even the present reality of reconciliation to the Colossians is predicated on them remaining in faith. I do not see the reference to reconciliation as finalized, I see it attached to God’s will as in his will that none should perish.
I do not follow your perspective. Are you saying those verses teach a complete reconciliation in place right now?
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Paul says to the Corinthians “Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God” which assumes they may not be.
I’m not suggesting a complete reconciliation in place right now, but a holistic view of salvation in which Jesus’ blood shed on the cross set the process in motion for ALL things to be reconciled, and that this reconciliation includes all that God created…
I completely agree, however, my view is that it will take place by a sovereign act of God and our mission is the ministry of reconciliation to the lost. No where do we minister to inanimate objects or animals.
I know that not all things will be reconciled (people in hell) and I guess the new heaven and earth will be how God reconciles everything else.
Rick,
I get ya, as the creation is subject to death not o fit’s choice but it also waits for the Sons of God to be revealed… now it is a bit interesting that God’s word has reference to Creation as an entity…
I see it as all things will be restored and that as the Son’s of God are revealed, all things will be once again under the dominion of man, (at least as Jesus is still man) and in that the original dominion were man was the top of all creation brings all things back to their proper place.
Blessings,
iggy
I agree with Rick .
I agree with Rick .
I know that it may not come welcome, and that I am perhaps joining a bit late, but Rick is on the right path here. I may be what you would call a Calvinist. And I would take issue with the statement that basically asserted that as such, my belief that the Holy Spirit in His good pleasure, will raise up another to save His people and reveal the Truth to them were I still to cower relieves my responsibility. I know this is circumstantial, but I personally do not know a single Calvinist who believes that God will speak through a can of soup–to put it bluntly. If I did know some hyper-Calvinists, Lord help them, they might assert such, but not I, or those “Calvinists” whom I happen to know. Again, I know that is only my experience, but it is still my experience nonetheless.
Here is where I agree with you Rick, and wholeheartedly. God never said that He would speak through a soup line. The great commission said nothing of food, but preaching, teaching, shouting, singing, and yes, showing the Gospel. This does not negate the possible goodness and mandate of bread lines or the like, on the contrary, it puts them in their important, but secondary place.
Yes, I do believe that God is Sovereign–in “all things”. I believe He has, does, and will call His elect to Him (2nd Peter 3:1-9) I also believe this: that He commanded, and ordained that His elect come through the message of the Gospel and not a bowl of soup and a blanket. These will, without Christ’s loving AND convicting Spirit, accomplish nothing more than warm and well fed sinners riding “Christian” manufactured wheel chairs right through the gates of hell.
The Holy Spirit’s work being completed “with or without” a particular believer does not erase the responsibility of the believer at all, no. It amplifies it. God’s workl will be done, His people WILL be saved, whether we as individuals “have a hand” in it or not.
Keep digging Brother, please.
In Christ
SJW -
Here’s where the rub lies – must every separate ministry contain a component of verbal preaching to the recipient of that ministry, or is it acceptable to take a holistic approach in which some service-heavy ministries (be they individual or corporate) pave the way of credibility – ‘earning a place at the table’ – for message-heavy ministries (be they individual or corporate)? Or must every ministry and every individual become a ‘one-stop shop’?
I argue that the former is more in line – even with Jesus’ ministry – and that the latter is too often (rightly) viewed as unwelcome manipulation…
Chris – that is a mischaracterization of ministry. Every ministry should have service and every ministry should have verbal gospel witness. It seemed as though some were proposing that ministry can provide humanitarian service without a verbal witness.
The apostles did not go to jail for acts of kindness.
Not unless you want to be VERY broad in defining “ministry”.
To use the Longmont, CO example – the church has a ministry by which it assist the local school district in custodial work at night (when there are no other people around). Must if find a way for that ministry to leave tracts or something to be a “legitimate” ministry – or is it sufficient that the youth from the chuch attend that school and that the youth minister comes to lunch at the school during the week?
Or – to use AIDS relief as an example:
A church already exists in Town XYZ, ministering to the people there. Another church, in the US, through one.org (a secular organization) provides labor to XYZ, building an adequate water supply and helping staff their clinic for several weeks. Must the church in the US learn to speak Swahili so that they can share the gospel with the people in the clinic and the people working with them on the water tanks, or is the ministry of the church in XYZ sufficient?
“Must the church in the US learn to speak Swahili so that they can share the gospel with the people in the clinic and the people working with them on the water tanks, or is the ministry of the church in XYZ sufficient? ”
Yes, we should learn to speak to them.
Wow. Talk about wasteful stewardship of resources!
“Sorry, church in XYZ – we don’t trust that you’ll do the job, so we’re gonna hold off helping you for another 3 months while some of our construction workers learn to speak Swahili…”
“What’s that? 300 more prople will die in XYZ during that 3 months from lack of drinking water? Sorry – it’s more important that we learn your language…”
Hmm, I see your point Chris. Good point.
SJW, if you believe God is so sovereign, can’t He just anyone in any ‘method’ He wants to save them by? Whether by someone hearing the Doctrines of Grace, or by a soup can? God could just say “I am God” to someone, and make them saved, if He so pleased.
I think you’ve set up a logical fallacy of boxing God in and still calling him Sovereign. God can do whatever, and however H wants.
You’ve also pre-assumed that a can of soup, or a warm blanket is not part of the Gospel. What good is the Gospel without deeds to prove the worth of Christ to a lost world? Even the Apostles had miracles to give proof to what they said.
Dig deep on that, and don’t let Calvin get in your way. (FYI, I lean in that direction, but have no allegiance to his theology and doctrines).
Grace,
Joe
Who said hold off, that is your self serving definition. I said while we help them we should learn to witness to them. If church XYZ is ministering to them (very nebulous) and they don’t need help with that then materials are fine. But if there is room for a greater gospel witness we should help them materially and learn their language.
Chris,
If God had said that He would save men through any means, then indeed it would be the case. But He did not. He did say this:
And this:
These do not disprove His Sovereignty, as I said, they amplify it.
Now, before you shut off your brain because of the ‘C’ word. You might check this out too. Don’t speak of things you really don’t know.
LINK
Sorry,
that was directed at Joe, not Chris specifically.
Must go now,
Will check in again tomorrow.
Which is funny SJW, because I specifically asked you not to let the C thing get in your way of considering certain things outside your systematic theology.
No one said any Scriptures lessens God’s sovereignty. On the contray, I was saying your view of God makes Him less sovereign than He actually is. Chew on that and tell me what you think.
No one will be saved except through Jesus. A given. But that’s like saying no one is created or exists except by God’s power. If anyone’s saved, it’s by Jesus. Leave it up to God.
Joe
I’m trying to get my mind around Rick’s first post – where he says “…unequal associations especially on a public scale obscures the message.”
So far my minds can’t stretch that far – too many questions… too many questions…
Neil
Neil – Should the First Baptist Church publicly join hands with the LDS church down the street in sending clothes to Haiti? And would you mind if both churches were stamped on the boxes?
Joe – The “C” things is in their blood, they can’t help it!
Rick,
Depends – besides, I can’t back into a position that annecdotally… but I’ll give it a shot.
If community I live in was to collect clothes to send to Haiti and they asked local churches to participate – I would… regardless of who else donates. If the LDS church was sponsoring the event, that would be a different matter… therein lies the problem of “What if…” – not enough details/too many variables.
What I am trying to get my mind around is the specific fact of your first post – the fact that you say a Christian Pastor should not minister to his community, using a particular venue, if the community allows others to use that venue as well.
Neil
Actually, Rick, it it not a self-serving definition, but a real problem a number of churches in Africa face where Christians organizations won’t give them the kind of help they need (typically material/medical/labor support) without spending significant time trying to add to what the church is already doing (and often doing well).
In the US, the problem is just the same. I have worked with a church camp on an Indian Reservation in North Dakota, where the minister running the cam during the summer and youth groups during the rest of the year literally has his facilities falling apart around him because churches won’t send workers who aren’t there to teach Bible school or “witness to the natives”. I remember how thankful they were toward a church in my area that went to their camp before it opened, build a building and did all sorts of maintenance that was needed for the summer – without taking days off to go into the villages of the Rez.
SJW and Rick – I am not saying that nobody witnesses to the people being served to, but that not every server HAS TO BE somehow connected to sharing the gospel or else, somehow, Christ won’t be served.
This is not a nebulous issue – unless you’re willing to plop yourself down for 6-12 months (at a minimum) in these places (Africa, Eastern Europe, the Rez), your best and most effective service is often in non-speaking roles – leaving the speaking to those who ARE in these places for the long haul. I know this because I know many of these people and what their complaints about the American church are.
We take such a short and faithless view of service that we are pitiful at being good stewards of the talents given to us…
Joe,
I will take that challenge. But, if you all here don’t mind, I will take some more time to explain, as clearly as I am enabled, what Scripture says regarding this issue.
I find that sometimes, that my passion is tempted to morph into blatant argumentative sin.
This issue (Sovereignty) has been a much deliberated subject in my own mind. I will confess, I have wrestled with it much. For now, I would ask that you look here for a precursory glance at where I stand.
I will break from regular study at A Lion Has Roared! and will attempt to state my answer. This may take a few days as I am pressed for time right now.
I cannot leave this alone, but I don’t think I would do my convictions any justice to try to communicate them in a terse response in a comment page.
Does this sound alright gentlemen? Just answer a quick yes or no.
Actually Chris, the larger problem is the church in America treats missions and helping the poor as a part of their church but certainly not eliciting much sacrifice and life changing participation. With that I wholeheartedly agree with you, but I could never join with other than Christians no matter what denomination they were. Even a liberal church but at least was Christian in name I would cooperate with, but not outside the faith.
My health prevents me from going long term so in that I am a hypocrite, but ten years ago my partner and I started a missions organization to Africa and we have been privileged to support many missionaries there including sending some fresh from Bible school. And of course we send and pay for materials and goods but you have identified a sore spot for me because God has chosen to keep me as a facilitator and not allowed me top go and live there.
It is one of the few things I cry over but I must bow to His will.
SJ,
Free will and predestination don’t have to be an either/or proposition. Here’s something I recently wrote on the subject.
Rick,
I hear you, and while we might disagree on whether or not to work alongside unbelievers (I do see it as a witness opportunity to them, as well), I have no doubt that you care for those in need. Sometimes I wonder if we all don’t approach these things too much with our heads more than our hearts when writing about them…
As for what you believe might be a limited role on your part (I sometimes feel the same way, in terms of going vs. supporting), I have found some peace in realizing that perhaps it is better for me to be in the support role (holisitically in God’s plan) than in an on-the-ground role. Someday, that may change, but I am trying to find contentment and use where I am…
SJW,
Please write, study, and pray your heart out. I highly encourage this in all of us. I’m simply just saying, let’s not put God’s perogatives, will, and power in a box.
God can save a man anyway He likes, and it will always be by Jesus, because Jesus is God. Simple.
Soup cans…The Gospel…warm blankets…medical aids…mercy…love….
Just put it all together.
Love,
Joe
Chris L,
That was an awesome article you wrote on the subject of PD/FW.
Blew my mind up. I had long suspected a concept such as that.
Thanks,
Joe